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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsGuidelines to curb campus sexual assaults raise concerns for accused
Victims of sexual assault on campus and their advocates have become increasingly vocal in demanding tougher action, more protection and better reporting since the Obama administration first called attention to the issue in a 2011 letter putting administrations on notice that changes were necessary.
But college administrators and lawyers who advise them warn that the circumstances of such assaults are often murky, involving too much alcohol, uncertain recollection and no impartial witnesses. Some school officials are wary that the pendulum not swing so far that students accused of assaults are denied a fair hearing.
The steps put forward by a White House task force include clarified rules governing confidentiality of accusers, surveys to gauge the extent of sexual assaults, guidance on model policies for handling allegations, plans to develop prevention efforts and a website with college data on sexual assaults.
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Mark Hathaway, a Los Angeles attorney representing several students accused of sexual assault, said he remained concerned that those accused in campus cases are not given the rights to an attorney, to remain silent and to confront witnesses against them.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-guidelines-to-curb-campus-sexual-assaults-20140429,0,5146969.story#axzz30X4Tsghy
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)dionysus
(26,467 posts)I've noticed a.. pattern in what his OPs are about....
liberalhistorian
(20,821 posts)who are accused of a crime aren't given due process, and concern over the fact that those who accuse are automatically believed no matter what is being an "apologist"? Really? You do realize that there are times when false reports are made, that not every report or claim of a rape is true, and that false accusations are sometimes used against people for malicious reasons? That those who are accused of a crime have the basic right to due process and the assumption of innocent until proven guilty?
My son was falsely accused and charged and, even though the truth did come out and he was cleared, I can't begin to describe the trauma it caused him and us. And, until he was able to get the record of the charge expunged, it haunted him in employment and education and socially. It still does, even several years later. And NOTHING was ever done to the girl who made the false accusation. That kind of thing happens a helluva lot more than you, or anyone else, would like to think.
Dozer
(27 posts)We have to do all we can for victims of sexual assault but it seems many don't care if innocent people get their lives ruined if it means a just afew more guilty parties are hold to account. This is not how a just society should act. If you are trying to change hearts and minds this is not the course to take.
Bringing the guilty to justice is important but so is not destroying the lives of those in the cross-hairs of a lier.
It seems that there are certain people that won't even acknowledge that false accusations exist or that its a issue that even needs to be addressed.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)You also referred to the young woman in question as a "teenage bitch" and referred to the involvement of her father in the filing of charges, so it sounds like she was underage?
I'm not really buying your story.
liberalhistorian
(20,821 posts)The charges were dropped because she admitted she was lying, she was mad at him and told lies. I don't really give a shit whether or not you buy it or not. The fact that the vast majority of rape accusations are true, and that many get brushed aside or unjustly dismissed, does not negate the fact that false accusations do happen, that there are people who abuse the system for their own malicious purposes, and that lives can be, and sometimes are, permanently and unjustly ruined because of it. And in this country, the accused have the right to due process and a fair system no matter how odious the charges.
qazplm
(3,626 posts)protection of the rights of the accused is a progressive position, yes?
Charlos
(25 posts)Or not all.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Charlos
(25 posts)In fact, I believe that sometimes both women and men sometimes turn out to be not guilty of the charges made against them.
You sought to portray me as a woman-hater by stating that I should be in a "men's rights" discussion board. Your accusation of sexism thus made no sense.
I predict that in your next reply you will ignore the question I asked you again; because answering it would weaken your argument.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)The vast majority of rapes are not reported. The majority of those reported are not prosecuted. The majority of those prosecuted are dropped or pled out to lower charges before trial. The majority of cases that go to trial do not result in convictions.
One in four women will be raped in her lifetime. Almost none of those women will get anything like justice.
We're so far away from having a rape over-prosecution problem in this country that anybody who suggests otherwise can safely assumed to be a woman-hating jackass or too ignorant to be worthy of one's time or attention.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)fuck the campus cops, they are not on the side of the student here, never have been.
pnwmom
(109,009 posts)as anyone accused of a crime.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)stats down (as were many city PDs the last ten years) so they under report violent crime, nd dissuade victims from doing anything. Fuck them.
pnwmom
(109,009 posts)The police have obligations to handle these cases uniformly and are bound by criminal law.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)but they are an improvement over campus cops, who have a more direct conflict of interest.
Mondavi
(176 posts)on a campus or on a military base.
pnwmom
(109,009 posts)The college should report the cases to the police and let the case work its way through the criminal justice system.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)Campus cops usually does not have the training or the resources to really investigate these kind of cases. There is also (many say) a conflict of interest since the campus cops work for the university who's best interest is to downplay any of these incidents (not just rape, but any crime for that matter). It gives the university more power and control.
That's why many of these cases tend to get bungled. By the time it gets to the real cops or prosecutor...it's a big mess. And corruption can follow right up the line.
But without a Campus PD....normal cops will be responding to a college campus over and over again every night draining the city's resources. Some universities are very large. Ohio State for example has like 55,000 students. That's bigger than a lot of towns.
pnwmom
(109,009 posts)Drunkenness and other misdemeanors can be handled by the campus police.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)starters when it comes to any violent crime. Cops would just tell people it was pointless to file, or file lesser charges. Beat cops were pressured to comply.
Sucks.
pnwmom
(109,009 posts)of their presumption of innocence or any other civil right.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)In fact, it seems that the public and the state readily downplay the severity of such crimes and the accused seem to make rather miraculous defenses using arguments which when distilled essentially amount to "she is a lying whore" more often than not.
I don't see much evidence at all that there has ever been an issue of undue guilt placed upon the accused in these cases.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)Which means when someone is being accused of ANY crime, the burden of proof is on the prosecution/accuser. It's never the defense's job to prove the accused is innocent. That's not how our justice system works.
So by nature, the system is supposed to be skeptical of the accuser's accusations.
With robbery you can prove something is missing. With murder you can prove someone is dead. With domestic battery you can prove someone is all beat up. No one will ever question if a murder victim is really dead because his body is obviously as cold as the room. With rape, sometimes it isn't easy to prove that the crime even occurred. Credibility becomes extremely critical. And that's why defense attorneys can't wait to tear into the accuser's credibility and the trial quickly becomes very ugly.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)Colleges are required to investigate and respond to claims of sexual assault on campus, even if they're also being addressed by law enforcement. They are also required to investigate "rumors" of sexual assault, even if no official reports have been received.
liberalhistorian
(20,821 posts)Colleges are in the business of covering their asses, that's all they really care about. And there is a complete lack of due process in many college proceedings and their "investigations" are usually quite a joke.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)They should have a role for that reason.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)you can be accused of rape.
pnwmom
(109,009 posts)The less powerful one is at risk of rape and the more powerful person is at risk of false charges of rape.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)pnwmom
(109,009 posts)sometimes they have a weapon.
I wasn't going to assume that every rape situation involves a stronger man and a weaker woman.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Do you have any evidence of that? It seems like a weird statement to make given how power relations usually work.
Injustice is systematically enacted upon the subordinate in relationships of power. The subordinate don't need to make up accusations of rape because there is already an abundance of actual rape.
pnwmom
(109,009 posts)There is almost by definition an imbalance of power in a rape situation -- one person can coerce the other, either physically or through some other means. That doesn't mean the stronger you are, the more likely you'll be to face a false rape accusation.
I'm just saying that whether you're the stronger or the weaker one in a relationship, you face some degree of risk when you are alone together. You could be raped or face false allegations of rape.
To take a well known example: when Julian Assange was alone with his alleged victim, she was at risk of being raped. He was at risk of being falsely accused. They both took that risk when they spent time alone together.
All of this was a response to giftedgirl's proposed solution, by the way: that someone could avoid being falsely accused of rape by never putting themselves into that "situation." How exactly would that work, especially since there are more acquaintance rapes than stranger rapes.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)The two aren't even remotely equal in occurrence so I feel as though the wording of your argument seems a little off.
I mean, if we were listing all possible events that could occur while having sex, both rape and false rape accusation would be on the list. But so would being killed by a meteor.
pnwmom
(109,009 posts)by never being in that "situation."
Could you please explain how a guy could successfully avoid the "situation" of ever being falsely accused of rape, other than never being in a room alone with another female? (Or a less powerful male, for that matter.)
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Even then, that figure is not known very accurately. Studies have shown anywhere from 1% to over 50% of rape accusations are false. Although, it's pretty safe to say that the large figures are bullshit.
Basically, the odds of you being falsely accused of rape after any sexual experience are EXTREMELY low. So low in fact that to even call it a "risk" is to make a gross overstatement.
The meteor comment was hyperbole to prove a point. Both don't really even constitute risks worth worrying about.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)alp227
(32,065 posts)since rape accusations - true or false - can happen anywhere. It may sound crazy, but it's true. We're walking in murky waters here.
pnwmom
(109,009 posts)to completely avoid the "situation" of false accusations of rape would be never to be alone in a room with another person.
Response to giftedgirl77 (Reply #4)
A-Schwarzenegger This message was self-deleted by its author.
dsc
(52,169 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)pnwmom
(109,009 posts)What about when both partners are drunk? (Which, unfortunately, is a fairly common situation on college campuses.)
Are they both guilty of rape?
alp227
(32,065 posts)In a case of both partners being drunk, depends who the aggressor is.
shocked this is up for debate on a progressive forward thinking forum!
pnwmom
(109,009 posts)But in a situation with two drunk people, there isn't necessarily an aggressor. There could be just two people having sex, neither one of whom was able to give or get consent. So does that make them both rapists?
alp227
(32,065 posts)In theory, "both could be rapists", but in reality, there has to be an aggressor who planned in advance.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)The statutes in most states require unconsciousness or the physical inability to resist. So if one party is either unconscious or can't resist, then it's hard to imagine how they could initiate a sex act.
On college campuses, 9 out of 10 rapes are repeat offenses, so the idea that it was planned in advance is pretty good.
pnwmom
(109,009 posts)But isn't the rate of false rape charges an empirical question, with a specific answer that isn't vulnerable to ideological twisting? Yes and no. There has been a burst of research on this subject. Some of it is careful, but much of it is questionable. While most of the good studies converge at a rate of about 8 percent to 10 percent for false rape charges, the literature isn't quite definitive enough to stamp out the far higher estimates. And even if we go by the lower numbers, there's the question of interpretation. If one in 10 charges of rape is made up, is that a dangerously high rate or an acceptably low one? To put this in perspective, if we use the Bureau of Justice Statistics that show about 200,000 rapes in 2008, we could be looking at as many as 20,000 false accusations.
SNIP
In her book, Brownmiller said that only 2 percent of rape allegations are false, citing findings by the female police in a New York City rape squad. The problem is that while this statistic has been widely repeated, with dutiful mentions of New York-based "research," no one has ever tracked down its source. This we learned from a comprehensive review of the literature on false rape charges published in the Cambridge Law Journal in 2006. The author, Philip Rumney, finds a couple of small studies that back up the 2 percent claim but isn't confident of their methodology.
Rumney's survey of the terrain is the best we found. He also takes aim at the findings on the other end of the spectrumthe research that purports to show that the rate of false allegations of rape is in the range of 40 percent, as well as the flawed (but often cited) work that makes a crazy high jump to as high as 90 percent. The 40 percent figure is usually attributed to a 1994 article by E.J. Kanin in the Archives of Sexual Behavior. Kanin looked at 109 reports of rape to police in one small Midwestern metropolitan area over nine years. His pool was small. The police he studied always offered the victim a polygraphperhaps signaling they doubted her veracity. And Kanin himself "warns against generalising from his findings" and points to reasons for questioning them, as Rumney explains.
SNIIP
Rumney's smart debunkings leave us with a group of American, British, Canadian, and New Zealand studies that converge around a rate of 8 percent to 10 percent for false reports of rape. Not all of these studies are flawless, but together they're better than the rest of the lot. They include a massive 1997 report on sexual assault by the U.S. Department of Justice, which includes data from 16,000 local, county, and state law enforcement agencies. The DoJ found that "in 1995, 87% of recorded forcible rapes were completed crimes and the remainder were classified as attempts. Law enforcement agencies indicated that about 8% of forcible rapes reported to them were determined to be unfounded and were excluded from the count of crimes."
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)In which case according to the definitions many here are advocating yes, both are guilty of rape and both should be expelled from the college.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)It seems like for a lot of people, getting wasted is part of the foreplay.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Physical and/or mental incapacitation is the standard for most, if not all, states, which basically means intoxicated to the point of or very near passing out.
pnwmom
(109,009 posts)MYTH: Its not rape if a person is too drunk or high to resist sex.
FACT: Sexual contact with someone unable to agree to have sex, for whatever reason, is considered rape.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Intoxication is not the standard. Unable to provide consent is the standard.
pnwmom
(109,009 posts)A victim doesn't have to be totally incapacitated to be raped. It can still be rape even if the person is conscious, and speaking, and apparently willing -- if the person is drunk enough.
So what about when two people are both too drunk to give real consent?
http://www.safercampus.org/blog/2010/07/when-drunk-sex-clearly-is-rape-and-more-thoughts-on-alcohol-and-consent/
The bad news is, there isnt one test to tell when someone is too intoxicated to consent to sex. (Well, maybe there isone could make an argument about blood alcohol content perhaps, but college students dont carry breathalyzers last time I checked so lets move along). And so when we talk about alcohol and consent, its a conversation about open communication with your partner if theyve been drinkingchecking in with them, making sure they are enthusiastically, affirmatively consenting to whatever youre doing together. Clearly people are sometimes going to get drunk and have sex. And the presence of alcohol in someones bloodstream does not automatically make it rape. But theres a spectrum of intoxication. If someone is physically impaired by their drinking (or drug use), you can tell. They are getting sick, their body is limp, theyre not able to communicate clearly with you. Its a common sense situation. If its less obvious, you know they have been drinking but youre not sure how much and they seem OK, thats where communication is key, and honestlyif its unclear how drunk your partner is and you feel conflicted, then maybe just play it safe and dont do it. Instincts are there for a reason. Youll have another chance to have sex, but sexual assault is permanent. [As a side note, I love this piece at Scarleteen about how men know if someone is giving consent or not, and I highly recommend it.]
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)The answer is no because one or both parties can be drunk and still give consent. Your own reference verifies this:
pnwmom
(109,009 posts)And I understand why, on the basis of "better safe than sorry." But if they're both drunk, I think it's wrong to single out the guy as a rapist, assuming there was no coercion involved. If they were both simply drunk and had sex without rational consent, either they are both rapists, or neither one.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)I understand that colleges do this, but teaching "better safe than sorry" is a poor excuse for not teaching what consent means in one's particular state. They would be better off handing out copies of the statute and remaining silent than teaching something which is ambiguous and murky.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Whereas some, unfortunately, seem to think that intoxication constitutes de fact consent.
Both partners being "drunk" is basically irrelevant. If they're both willing participants, then great. Whereas if one is an aggressor and the other a victim, then obviously a crime has occurred.
Bottom line, drunk rape is still rape. The threshold of consent is not any lower in that situation - if anything, it's higher.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)should any action be taken against the woman?
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)And for the sake of consistency, I would have to say much the same if the genders were reversed. But just because something isn't a crime doesn't make it "okay" from an ethical standpoint.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)It seems fitting that the capstone of this article is a quote from her.
alp227
(32,065 posts)Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Granted, there are plenty of sexists on the left.
dilby
(2,273 posts)I still don't understand why guys even take the chance on an intoxicated girl, I don't care how much she is asking for sex it's not worth prison for. When I am at the bar and I see a girl drinking redbull and vodka I know to stay the hell away from her because it's basically the blackout mixture where they wake up not remembering anything they did.
alp227
(32,065 posts)I thought intoxicated people cannot consent to anything quite clearly. So where do you get the idea that an intoxicated woman is "asking for sex"?
Xithras
(16,191 posts)There's a difference between being unable to speak and being unable to consent. There have been many cases where sexual assault victims have quite literally ASKED for sex, but the sexual contact was later deemed to be rape because the woman was too intoxicated to comprehend what she was actually saying. Verbal consent isn't consent if it comes from a person too drunk to legally provide it. In those cases, it's rape even if they actually, explicitly, verbally "ask for it".
As I understood the poster, that's what he was referring to. It's also the same advice I've given my own teenage son. If a girl is getting drunk, stay away from her because even if she consents, she hasn't really consented. Hard drinking women should be avoided, because there's no sex in the world worth the risk of prison time. As the line is arbitrary and the woman controls it, no decent and intelligent man should ever go there.
Dozer
(27 posts)I'm sorry but most people don't want to live life in fear. We'd all be safer if we stayed home and avoided each other and limited our freedom and movemoent but that is an unacceptable trade off.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)As far as lesser degrees of intoxication, that's more of a judgement call. But as always, be careful. Respect others' wishes and in most cases you're probably safe - but of course, most "date rapists" don't give a flying fuck what the other person wants or doesn't want, and that right there is the problem.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)The standards of evidence are not as strict as they would be in a criminal case.
So a student accused of assault can and should be expelled, if it is found that there is reasonable proof that he/she did so.
A victim should not have to attend classes with his/her rapist.
Not every victim is going to go to the police, for a variety of reasons. They SHOULD, but they may not want to do so.
Response to alarimer (Reply #54)
Dozer This message was self-deleted by its author.
Charlos
(25 posts)Duh. Nobody is arguing that a person who can reasonably be believed to have committed a crime should be given a pass.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)before a penalty as severe as expulsion is imposed.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)I guess prevention efforts, measures of extent, improving policies regarding increased male violence against women and deplorable track records at universities, excusing the men and silencing/re-victimizing the women, is a bad idea.
defense lawyers for rapists are scum. I've met a few.
Dozer
(27 posts)you should not be taking sides. We as a society should be looking for unbiased truth. I'm sorry but we don't just throw people in jail purely based on one persons word without asking questions or looking for supporting evidence.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)4 adult male witnesses required to "prove" rape.
Or do you condone the long history of colleges covering up rape statistics, protecting the accused and punishing women who try to get justice for themselves...because it would tarnish the school's reputation?
Why do you GUYS always ignore the reality of women's experiences and how hard it is to prosecute rape? Why do you guys always claim that men are being thrown in jail based on one person's word without any supporting evidence? That is pure bullshit. Talk to some women who have survived, find out how things really go. Easy to find them--1 in 4 women.
The myth of billions of women lying about rape is a myth. It's been debunked. Best estimates say ~8% of reports are false. However, 60% of victims don't report. Scared of being raked through the coals themselves.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2009/10/how_often_do_women_falsely_cry_rape.2.html
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)College administrators attempting to bring rapists to justice is like police departments attempting to teach calculus and business administration.
Violet_Crumble
(35,980 posts)I'm just finding it incredibly bizarre that stuff like that isn't automatically turned over to the police.
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)The steps put forward by a White House task force include clarified rules governing confidentiality of accusers, surveys to gauge the extent of sexual assaults, guidance on model policies for handling allegations, plans to develop prevention efforts and a website with college data on sexual assaults
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-guidelines-to-curb-campus-sexual-assaults-20140429,0,5146969.story#ixzz30cHAhX4a
All totally reasonable.
Mark Hathaway, a Los Angeles attorney representing several students accused of sexual assault, said he remained concerned that those accused in campus cases are not given the rights to an attorney, to remain silent and to confront witnesses against them.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-guidelines-to-curb-campus-sexual-assaults-20140429,0,5146969.story#ixzz30cHplZTY
Why are these cases being handled by the college and not the courts?
snot
(10,540 posts)and then the accuseds will get their rights.