General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsGerman Student Killed in 'Castle Doctrine' Case
The father of a German exchange student shot dead in Montana after he trespassed in a man's garage has said the US cannot continue to "play cowboy" with firearms.
Markus Kaarma has been charged with deliberate murder in the Sunday killing of Diren Dede, 17, of Hamburg.
But he says Montana's self-defence law allowed him to shoot the boy.
Celal Dede said he would not have allowed his son to study in the US had he been aware of the lenient gun laws.
"I didn't think for one night that everyone here can kill somebody just because that person entered his back yard," Mr Dede told the German news agency dpa.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-27243115
randys1
(16,286 posts)so men who are really children can play with their guns
I wish the German army would invade Montana and beat the living shit out of the shooter
and i am not kidding
Logical
(22,457 posts)ground and castle doctrine is just a way for these paranoid gun owners to shoot someone legally.
dilby
(2,273 posts)Hopefully the message will be there is nothing in your home worth losing your life over and that there is nothing in someone else's home worth losing your life over. Kid was baited in but he did take the bait and he should not have entered someones garage at night.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)according to the article:
On the night of the shooting, Mr Kaarma and his partner Janelle Pflager left their garage door open, and Ms Pflager left her purse in the garage in order to bait intruders, she told police.
They set up motion sensors and a video monitor, prosecutors said.
When the sensors went off just after midnight and they saw a man on the monitor screen, Mr Kaarma went outside and fired a shotgun into the garage without warning several times.
I have little sympathy for burglars, but far less for bloodthirsty scumbags.
GeorgeGist
(25,321 posts)it will get you convicted of premeditated murder. And rightfully so.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)You can use any defense you want that doesn't mean the actual ideas behind the defense you are using are wrong.
"The state allows residents to protect their homes with deadly force when they believe they are going to be harmed, said his lawyer, Paul Ryan."
I don't have a problem with that idea.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)presumably bodily injury.
Some might believe the theft of a handbag is harm enough to require the death of miscreant. Just some.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)dionysus
(26,467 posts)reason to just start blasting; he was armed and not in danger.
it'd be like putting my valuables in the driveway, then going upstairs and aiming a rifle out of the window, waiting to shoot anyone that comes to grab them. it's the same thing that douchebag did who lured those idiot kids into his basement and murdered them!
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)He was not in any imminent danger and was not defending was on the offensive.
But I support the right of people to defend themselves in their home when they are in danger. Seems common sense to me and not even sure why we need a law to codify that.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)that.
nor is having a gun in the house a failsafe means of protection.
if someone broke into my place, the last thing I'd do is try to confront them unless absolutely needed. I'd arm myself if I had the time to, but even if I was able to grab a gun or knife, I wouldn't go seeking out the bastards. "staying alive" > "shootin' me an intruder".
my old roommate is one of those trigger happy gun folks. he's got his .45 right in his nightstand, ammo stashed around the house, and always talks tough about what he'd do if one of "them" broke into his house.
sounds scary, right? anyone breaking in is gonna get it for sure, eh?
but the sad reality is he'd be passed out cold, drunk off his ass. the thief is more likely to get a drop on him, than he is getting a drop on anyone breaking in... they'd probably be able to empty his entire house without even waking him up.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Setting people up is not defending yourself.
My friend was home when three guys broke in, robbed him, tied him up, shot him, and burned his house down.
I generally think people breaking into your home are dangerous and not out to simply come in and have some coffee /donuts to discuss politics
dionysus
(26,467 posts)where I was upstairs, I doubt I'd be able to grab a piece, unlock it, load it, and get my contacts in before they got to me...
you'd almost have to have a loaded gun within reach at all times, but there's no way in hell I'm leaving a loaded weapon around... just too dangerous. i'll go with the odds of not getting robbed like that.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)And two loaded shot guns near his desk.
We sold/made reloading dies. Had two rottweilers who lived in the office as well (one was named Tank, I used to have to walk him and such). Other half of the building was his wife's business, military surplus. A lot of militia guys would come and hang out there.
No one ever tried to rob that place
I don't currently own a gun but keep a few things at hand as I live in a dangerous hood.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)Jenoch
(7,720 posts)This incident is similar to the case in Minnesota in which the homeowner who shot and killed two teens was convicted of first degree murder.
951-Riverside
(7,234 posts)What he did is called "lying in wait" and "premeditated murder".
1. He set a trap
2. He waited
3. Once the guy entered, he opened fired into the garage without saying a word
Its not like he waited there, told the guy to get his hands up and he had no choice but to defend himself when the guy went for his gun. No, this a**hole just started blasting away once the poor guy entered.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)If the owner did not own a gun the victim would be alive.
Now a gunner may have the right and the ability to shoot someone in their yard but do they have to shoot them?
Combine gun nut with gun and no heart and you got someone who kills because he can.
That is a tragic result of our insane gun culture.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)broke in, how deadly and Rambo-like they would be. it almost sounds like they're fantasizing about right to legally kill somebody.
they're far more likely to shoot their spouse, kids, or themselves by accident than save themselves from armed intruders.
951-Riverside
(7,234 posts)They set up motion sensors and a video monitor, prosecutors said.
When the sensors went off just after midnight and they saw a man on the monitor screen, Mr Kaarma went outside and fired a shotgun into the garage without warning several times.
What a coward! He didnt bother to say anything before blasting away.
This is without a doubt a clear cut case of murder and should be tried as such.
I have no problem with people having guns to defend their homes, I do have a problem with people thinking stand your ground and the castle doctrine means they can blow anyone away for simply stepping foot on their property. Guns should be a tool of last resort, not the first option. Gun toting jackasses like this guy, Byron Smith, George Zimmerman, Pete Tavita Solomona and Margie Rhea Ramey should rot in prison.
Guns should be reserved for use against violent criminal dirtbags like Shawn Custis, not kids who would give up the moment you told them to put their hands up.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)but it is *VERY* easy to "bait" anyone into a 'Castle Doctrine/SYG' death and juries almost always give a pass to even the most flagrant and obvious bait cases...
Luckily the victim is white, so at least there will be a little outrage over this one and the media won't be harping on "hooded sweatshirts"
JI7
(89,250 posts)moondust
(19,986 posts)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Yoshihiro_Hattori
951-Riverside
(7,234 posts)BUENA PARK, Calif. (AP) _ A 17-year-old was shot to death after he apparently stole a Halloween pumpkin from a front yard as a prank.
The boy was found shot in the head Monday inside his car and died early today at a hospital, police Sgt. Robert Mote said. His name was not released.
Pete Tavita Solomona, 47, was arrested for investigation of assault with intent to commit murder. With the boy's death, he could face a murder charge, Mote said.
http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1999/Alleged-Pumpkin-Theft-Ends-in-Death/id-a0a198b93f531fc9b5ee9bf73305f6a4
This guy was only sentenced to 6 years in prison and I think he's worked for a municipality southern california since 2009.