Do you believe that Obama installed a Nazi government in Ukraine to steal their resources?

[cthulu2016]

I do not.

I also do not think that the USA faked the evidence of Assad forces launching that huge sarin gas attack.

I get that agents of the Russian government have promoted these claims, but even that doesn't persuade me. Somehow I missed the orientation session about how people truly opposed to the cancer of American conservatism have to subscribe to Russian propaganda.

And, oddly enough, I do not think that believing that Obama is integral to a bunch of Alex Jones level conspiracies and commits impeachable crimes every damn day is a sensible progressive litmus test.

Just my opinion.

[MohRokTah]

1. DU Rec. eom

[Demeter]

2. I believe the State Department Did

and as Harry Truman pointed out...the buck stops in the Oval Office.

[truedelphi]

11. The buck no longer stops there.

After all, to expect it to stop there, and to expect some responsibility from the Oval Office, would require the person who is asking for such accountability to being accused of racism.

[Demeter]

29. Unfortunately, true

who would have thought the race card was a get-out-of-jail free card?

[840high]

33. True.

[wercal]

3. No.

[Spider Jerusalem]

4. I think that the West had generally much less to do with what happened in Ukraine...

than the fantasists of American omnipotence like to imagine.

[cthulu2016]

6. It requires a double-theory of the CIA feigning incompetence all these years.

It is dizzying conspiracy stuff. There is a fake CIA pretending to not be able to find its ass with both hands, while the secret real CIA (that Obama must serve or they would kill him, or something) can accomplish anything, at will.

Yet this incredibly competent CIA has its deepest workings exposed on a daily basis by the lowest-common-denominator internet crazies... and Russian state media. (The gold standard of reliability.)

[okaawhatever]

18. Yeah, Rachel Maddow did a humorous piece on the CIA. She talked about all the world events

they didn't see coming like the fall of the Berlin Wall, it was titled "If only we had a organization to predict these things".

Most of the time if the CIA or other get involved it's because there is a counter force like Russia being in Grenada, Nicaragua, Iran and other places. They got involved as a counter weight so the states didn't fall into the hands of the "Godless commies."

[truedelphi]

44. No, actually we in the public were told at the time that they

Were helping us avoid having other nations fall to the sway of the Godless commies.

That is what we were told, but it had little to do with the real reason the CIA was involved where it was involved.

In truth, when we became involved through our CIA overthrow of the democratically elected President in Iran, 1953, it was on account of OIL.

When we got involved in Vietnam in early sixties through to Spring 1975, it was on account of OIL.

When we got involved in Central America in 1980's, it was on account of the need to keep American corporate interests happy with total control of the peasantry in those nations.

Panama was an actual vengeance game, played out on the part of the head of the Bush Crime family to deliver retribution to the Noriega for Noriega's screwing over said American Crime Family.

Note that in Vietnam, in addition to OIL interests, the CIA saw to it that marijuana and hashish and opium and heroin flooded the streets of the USA, brought back in the coffins of dead US Americans.

Iraq I and II was again about OIL.

Afghanistan is a nation we now know has over five hundred billions of dollars of minerals, which our American companies want for their Corporate Interests. That will come later, but right now, heroin is flooding the streets of America, just as it did back in the 1960's and 1970's.
Rachel says what her handlers tell her to say. On the one hand you can indeed make out a case for our CIA being a bunch of bumbling idiots, but anyone connected to their internal workings has become rich and powerful beyond belief. I can guarantee the fact that George Walker Bush never had to worry about a check he wrote bouncing, nor did Cheney.

We have lost our own democracy on account of this agency. So please don't put out there that it is powerless. Like Bill Casey stated in his first remarks as newly installed CIA head, to a group of CIA new recruits, early 1980's:
(Paraphrasing) "It is our job over the next twenty years, to see to it that everything the American public believes is false."

[The Magistrate]

5. You Will Pick Up Quite A Bit Of Navel Lint With This One, Sir...

[questionseverything]

7. reuters and the un are russian agents?

Reuters) - U.N. human rights investigators have gathered testimony from casualties of Syria's civil war and medical staff indicating that rebel forces have used the nerve agent sarin, one of the lead investigators said on Sunday.

The United Nations independent commission of inquiry on Syria has not yet seen evidence of government forces having used chemical weapons, which are banned under international law, said commission member Carla Del Ponte.

"Our investigators have been in neighboring countries interviewing victims, doctors and field hospitals and, according to their report of last week which I have seen, there are strong, concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof of the use of sarin gas, from the way the victims were treated," Del Ponte said in an interview with Swiss-Italian television.

"This was use on the part of the opposition, the rebels, not by the government authorities," she added, speaking in Italian.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/05/us-syria-crisis-un-idUSBRE94409Z20130505

[cthulu2016]

8. I cannot read the OP to you.

You have to read it yourself for the information the strings of letters contain.

If you think your post contradicts the OP then that is just one more hopelessly wrong thing for you to think.

[pampango]

9. UN: Chemical weapons used in Syria appear to come from army stockpile

Chemical weapons used in two incidents in Syria last year appear to come from the stockpiles of the Syrian military, United Nations human rights investigators said on Wednesday in a report that went beyond previous findings.

The team of independent experts, led by Brazilian Paulo Pinheiro, said that so far they had confirmed the deadly nerve agent sarin was used in three incidents: the Damascus suburb of al-Ghouta on August 21, in Khan al-Assal near Aleppo in March 2013 and in Saraqeb near the northern town of Idlib last April. The first two attacks bore "the same unique hallmarks", according to the team of some two dozen investigators who include a military advisor.

"The evidence available concerning the nature, quality and quantity of the agents used on 21 August indicated that the perpetrators likely had access to the chemical weapons stockpile of the Syrian military, as well as the expertise and equipment necessary to manipulate safely large amount of chemical agents," the U.N. investigators said in the report.

The Syrian government and the opposition have accused each other of using chemical weapons, banned under international law, and both have denied it.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/05/us-syria-crisis-chemical-idUSBREA240SF20140305

Not really a surprise but good information to know. It was the global reaction to the al-Ghouta attack last August that led to the agreement to destroy all of Syria's chemical weapons.

[truedelphi]

10. Of course, as Janet Reno often said, "We will never ever know."

Since the Mainstream Media is complicit with almost all aspects of Pro_Corporate_State policies, we will always be in the dark. (Unless we listen to questionable sources.)

If it is true, however, that our Alphabet agencies were indeed involved in the situation in the Ukraine, this is not something we will ever ever have our Mainstream TV or newspapers telling us.

And then, of course, the Obama Administration is in a bit of a pickle. (I mean, why would any sane person suspect we might have had our alphabet agencies at work in Crimea/Ukraine? After all, <sarcasm alert! > our peace-loving nation is noted for being a totally non-interfering nation, as witness our history in Iran, circa 1953, then Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Central America, Grenada, Panama, Iraq, and Iraq, and Afghanistan.)

The Administration doesn't currently have the conventional military resources to take on the "Empire of Evil." (as Obama's hero Reagan used to describe the Soviets.)

So assuming, that we don't get led into an all out nuke confrontation, then what?

Well, you can bet your sweet bippy on how the various generals and others connected to the Defense Industry will immediately be before Congress, testifying that they are hamstrung and very much need:

One) A transfer of all things surveillance monies back to the military hardware monies (Something that will not happen, as the surveillance types would not let it.)

or Two) Additional increases in the budget so that the conventional military hardware can be procured.


Without one of the above two measures occurring, how can we ever have a NATO led military "adventure" that is meant to restore the "democracy" there in the Ukraine.

Apparently someone at DoD noticed that slight down tick in the recent military budget, in terms of the US military. It's sure a good thing that situation in Crimea/Ukraine arose, otherwise the military might have seen its budget hacked down fifty percent, sometime over the next four hundred years!



.

[truedelphi]

14. One important thing we do know about what has gone on over there:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/08/exclusive-u-s-won-t-share-invasion-intel-with-ukraine.html
World News
04.08.14
Exclusive: U.S. Won’t Share Invasion Intel With Ukraine
American spies have spotted all the signs of an all-out Russian invasion of Ukraine. Why won’t they tell the Ukrainians about the forces on their border? U.S. intelligence agencies now have detailed information that Russia has amassed the kind of forces needed for a full-scale invasion of Ukraine. But the Obama administration hasn’t shared with Ukraine the imagery, intercepts, and analysis that pinpont the location of the Russian troops ready to seize more Ukrainian land, The Daily Beast has learned.

President Obama has repeatedly and publicly expressed solidarity with the Ukrainian people—and warned Russian leader Vladimir Putin that there will be consequences if he takes over any more Ukrainian territory. Yet Obama’s administration has so far been reluctant to hand over the kind of intelligence the Ukrainians could use to defend themselves. U.S. officials and members of Congress briefed on the crisis in Ukraine tell The Daily Beast that senior U.S. military officers have been instructed to refrain from briefing their Ukrainian counterparts in detail about what the United States knows about the Russians troops amassing on the border.

“I am not confident we are sharing any of that kind of information,” said Rep. Michael Turner, the Republican chairman of the House Armed Services Committee’s subcommittee that oversees U.S. tactical air and land forces. “It’s clear we are not giving them critical military advice about the Russian capability on their border and the best utilization of the Ukrainian military to counter that.”

Instead, the U.S. intelligence community’s detailed analysis of a potential Russian invasion has been shared only with the Congress, American policy makers, and members of the Obama administration. The analysis includes details such as the geographic location of specific Russian units and predictions for how those units would be used in combination for a potential invasion.

[BelgianMadCow]

36. _grin_

_ _

[truedelphi]

42. _likewise_

Hope you have a wonderfully exciting week.

I am very excited that a court over in Mendocino Calif. recently ruled that activists and others have the full right to petition at strip malls, shopping centers, etc, as those are considered by that court to be part of the Commons. This is a huge victory for those of us working to strengthen the Community Rights movement.

[jakeXT]

12. One problem I see is the "Government Assessment" being not a "Intelligence summary"

whose idea it was to use a "Government Assessment", I don't know.

And it surprised my too, that British intelligence had Russian sources they trusted, according to Hersh.

Obama’s change of mind had its origins at Porton Down, the defence laboratory in Wiltshire. British intelligence had obtained a sample of the sarin used in the 21 August attack and analysis demonstrated that the gas used didn’t match the batches known to exist in the Syrian army’s chemical weapons arsenal. The message that the case against Syria wouldn’t hold up was quickly relayed to the US joint chiefs of staff. The British report heightened doubts inside the Pentagon; the joint chiefs were already preparing to warn Obama that his plans for a far-reaching bomb and missile attack on Syria’s infrastructure could lead to a wider war in the Middle East. As a consequence the American officers delivered a last-minute caution to the president, which, in their view, eventually led to his cancelling the attack.

...

Within a few days of the 21 August attack, the former intelligence official told me, Russian military intelligence operatives had recovered samples of the chemical agent from Ghouta. They analysed it and passed it on to British military intelligence; this was the material sent to Porton Down. (A spokesperson for Porton Down said: ‘Many of the samples analysed in the UK tested positive for the nerve agent sarin.’ MI6 said that it doesn’t comment on intelligence matters.)

The former intelligence official said the Russian who delivered the sample to the UK was ‘a good source – someone with access, knowledge and a record of being trustworthy’.


http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n08/seymour-m-hersh/the-red-line-and-the-rat-line

Intelligence Summary or Political Ploy?

That Secretary of State John Kerry would invoke Clapper’s name this week in Congressional testimony, in an apparent attempt to enhance the credibility of the four-page “Government Assessment” strikes us as odd. The more so, since it was, for some unexplained reason, not Clapper but the White House that released the “assessment.”

This is not a fine point. We know how these things are done. Although the “Government Assessment” is being sold to the media as an “intelligence summary,” it is a political, not an intelligence document. The drafters, massagers, and fixers avoided presenting essential detail. Moreover, they conceded upfront that, though they pinned “high confidence” on the assessment, it still fell “short of confirmation.”

Déjà Fraud: This brings a flashback to the famous Downing Street Minutes of July 23, 2002, on Iraq, The minutes record the Richard Dearlove, then head of British intelligence, reporting to Prime Minister Tony Blair and other senior officials that President Bush had decided to remove Saddam Hussein through military action that would be “justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD.” Dearlove had gotten the word from then-CIA Director George Tenet whom he visited at CIA headquarters on July 20.

The discussion that followed centered on the ephemeral nature of the evidence, prompting Dearlove to explain: “But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.” We are concerned that this is precisely what has happened with the “intelligence” on Syria.

http://warisacrime.org/content/whos-lying-brennan-obama-or-both

[cthulu2016]

15. Sadly, that story is kind of a joke

The former intelligence official said the Russian who delivered the sample to the UK was ‘a good source – someone with access, knowledge and a record of being trustworthy’.

See... that is the entirety of the story. Is a sample provided by Russian intelligence that supports what Russian intelligence claims (a claim that is contradicted by all common sense and much evidence) reliable?

This is how conspiracy journalism (sic) is done. Set aside the very concept of preponderance of evidence. Zero in one one bogus datum, and then finesse the reliability of the datum with some vague anonymous bullshit.

The entire story is only as strong as one source saying that some other source had been reliable in the past and thus might be reliable in this instance... even though his employers are deserate to push precisely the story his evidence supports, and that little other evidence does support.

On the other side of the ledger, we have a mountain of evidence to the contrary, and tons of evidence that the attack involved resources nobody is claiming any rebels ever had, and that Assad's forces were known to have.

(What are the chances that if the only source for a fantastic theory was US intelligence? Would the same people just lap that up?)

And the icing on this cake of silliness is the notion that the rebels could have wiped out Assad's stronghold in Damascus any time they wanted but instead infiltrated Assad positions to rain mass death down on themselves as some false flag thing...

And it fooled everybody in the world except some guy Seymour Hersh claims to know.



Thing about the real world: Evidence has a basis in favor of shit that happens. When your army doesn't launch huge attacks there is tremendous evidence of that fact.

Like the huge freak-out when you realize somebody has infiltrated your positions to launch giant gas attacks. So the whole Assad side just sits around doing nothing... just watches. Not attempt to stop it. No pursuit of the infiltrating forces. No nothing.

It is just sad. There is saucer stuff stronger than this. Why are people so desperate to believe these stories?

[sabrina 1]

17. And this is why the British Parliament voted against military intervention which

left the US alone claiming they knew who was responsible for the Sarin Gas attack. Too many witnesses to contradict their claims and without their main ally on board, the world was spared yet another military intervention based on 'faulty evidence' as we now call outright lies told by the Bush gang.

For now, anyhow.

[jakeXT]

19. Cold war is back on and MI5 is hiring

Role

Ref:RV Russian Apr 14

Location:London

Salary:£30,000 including language allowance

Closing date:12 May 2014

The deeper you go into a language the more you uncover.

A conversation turns from sport, to the economy, to politics. And you’re there not just to translate it, not just to interpret it; you’re there to add a depth of understanding that enables us to make the right choices to help safeguard national security.

As a Russian intelligence analyst at MI5, you’ll be a core member of the investigative team. Your work will involve translating a wide variety of challenging audio and textual material from Russian into English. You’ll listen to Russian language telephone calls and work with written documents intercepted under warrant, and your translations and analysis will feed directly into the team’s investigations. Your excellent Russian language comprehension will enable us to make the right choices to help safeguard national security.

https://www.mi5.gov.uk/careers/current-jobs/job.aspx?id=134

[truedelphi]

43. If we had had a dozen other Hersh's out there doing real journalism, we

Might have been able to keep our nation a democracy.

Thanks for posting this.

[951-Riverside]

13. Whatever is the plan, I don't want war n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

16. No. I think the our government helped overthrow the government and didn't care much

what sort of hideous fucknutz were part of the opposition that took over.

The sarin gas incident was most likely the assad regime.

If you really think we aren't fucking with other nations all the time, the cluelessness is with you, and understanding that does not require alex jones idiocy, it just requires a passing acquaintance with world history since 1945.

[sabrina 1]

20. Re the Sarin Gas incident, that has been disputed over and over by investigators and many

other credible sources. See some of the links above providing the facts regarding that claim, and perhaps see the British Parliament's decision not to join in any military action in Syria due to the information they received. Many after the Blair lies and fake 'evidence' they are a bit more reluctant now to just start yet another conflict. At least in the UK they are still going after Blair for his criminal lies about Iraq. Here of course no one has to worry about lies that lead us into war. As Rove, or was it Ledeen called them, 'they are NOBLE lies'.

[cthulu2016]

22. Yes, we are indeed fucking with other nations all the time.

The OP is not a straw-man attack on your views.

If you are not a frothing lunatic slurping up whatever the highly trustworthy Russian government feeds you because you hate America as an extension of some issue you had with your parents then the OP is not about you.

And I mean that sincerely.

[TBF]

21. Sadly our history shows us that the CIA have led covert

actions in many areas. How much they actually do depends upon the country - we will have to wait until records/accounts are released regarding this incident.

I think most on this site would agree that Alex Jones is extreme, but that doesn't mean there wasn't some involvement.

The extreme black/white themes pushed by you and others really aren't necessary - most of us can figure out that situations are often more complex than presented by the nightly news.

[baldguy]

23. Anyone who believes the Ukraine govt are Nazis is falling for Russian propaganda.

Once upon a time, DU was better than that.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

34. What if a person considers some of the Ukraine govt to be fascists?

and i would agree with this statement 'Once upon a time, DU was better than that.' only in the opposite direction from you.

aka Anyone claiming that the Ukraine govt isn't partly fascists is falling for western propaganda.

[baldguy]

37. Russia's problem with Ukraine is that it isn't fascist enough.

But Putin isn't calling Ukraine fascist, is he?

It's especially important during Yom HaShoah to remember that the term "Nazi" has a genocidal connotation that simply isn't present in the new Ukraine govt. And to toss that label about haphazardly is not only misleading and disrespectful, it's in bad taste, too.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

41. agreed on the nazi term, which is why i use fascist instead

and i disagree on what Russia's problem is, If they have a problem is more linked to paranoia regarding the west and their encroachment toward their borders. They have mainly viewed the Baltics as a buffer zone between them and Europe and in my eyes likely have watched NATO's breach of the treaty/agreement to not move further east with more and more worry, the Ukraine mess was likely the final straw.

[Progressive dog]

24. K&R

It is frustrating to see ridiculous claims like those repeatedly being made on a "Democratic" website.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Foreign policy can be sumarized in two things

every nation has it's own national interests to pursue... but...A lot of it is purely accidental and blind men (and women these days) groping in the night. If people realized just how much of this is oops, we did not mean to do that really.

There is some purpose to this, but the CIA did it conspiracy theory ignores all kinds of internal national dynamics. It is our own version of the white man's burden actually, which presupposed nothing outside of the Empire was possible.

Of course they are idiots, but evil geniuses at the same time is hilarious to watch.

[NuclearDem]

39. This:

It is our own version of the white man's burden actually, which presupposed nothing outside of the Empire was possible.

Exactly.

[FarCenter]

26. No, they are not Nazis. They are facists.

[Duckhunter935]

27. Nope

[Enrique]

28. it's a matter of fact that the U.S. was involved

we have audio of State Dept. officials discussing who should be in power there.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

30. Obama? Hell no. The U.S. govt (which has been doing this since before I was born)? Maybe. nt

[ballyhoo]

31. Fascist, not Nazi. Obama? No...

he turned it over to someone else who botched the job.

[nationalize the fed]

32. Ukraine: Joe Biden Promotes U.S. as Fracking Missionary Force

During his two-day visit this week to Kiev, Ukraine, Vice President Joe Biden unfurled President Barack Obama’s “U.S. Crisis Support Package for Ukraine.”

A key part of the package involves promoting the deployment of hydraulic fracturing (“fracking”) in Ukraine. Dean Neu, professor of accounting at York University in Toronto, describes this phenomenon in his book “Doing Missionary Work.” And in this case, it involves the U.S. acting as a modern-day missionary to spread the gospel of fracking to further its own interests.

With the ongoing Russian occupation of Crimea serving as the backdrop for the trip, Biden made Vladimir Putin’s Russia and its dominance of the global gas market one of the centerpieces of a key speech he gave while in Kiev.

“And as you attempt to pursue energy security, there’s no reason why you cannot be energy secure. I mean there isn’t. It will take time. It takes some difficult decisions, but it’s collectively within your power and the power of Europe and the United States,” Biden said.

“And we stand ready to assist you in reaching that. Imagine where you’d be today if you were able to tell Russia: Keep your gas. It would be a very different world you’d be facing today.”
More
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/24/joe-biden-promotes-u-s-as-fracking-missionary-force/print

Ignoring things does not make them go away

[Warren DeMontague]

35. No.

I mean, you can break that question down into several smaller questions, but the answer to each of those is still, likewise, "no".

[LuvNewcastle]

38. I don't think Obama did anything in Ukraine, really.

I think our intelligence agencies had operations going on there that were outside of Obama's purview. I think that a lot of black ops in the intelligence agencies are done without the President's consent or knowledge, and it's been that way for quite some time now. They have their own agendas and are accountable to no one.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

40. Only if you desire to have charred pants.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/mar/19/facebook-posts/united-states-spent-5-billion-ukraine-anti-governm/

And let's not forget Victoria Nuland and her magical coup cookies.

[Junkdrawer]

45. Again. Read Peter Dale Scott. The Deep State doesn't work that way.

The Deep State works internationally to create events that forces the hand of the sitting politicians.

[Arkana]

46. Yes. I also believe that Obama is Kang

and Biden is Kodos.

[LeftishBrit]

47. No.

No doubt there are some fascist types on both sides. It's Eastern Europe, after all. But it's hardly a case of President Obama installing an Evil Government despite the best efforts of Poor Dear Innocent Putin.