The war on teachers. Why the public is letting it happen.

[madfloridian]

From the Washington Post. I believe this is unfortunately true. I have seen posts responding to my OPs in effect saying that they have no job security so why should teachers have it?

The answer goes to the fact that taking away these rights is union-busting. It's happened before, and it will continue. The author points out that these attacks are happening all across the media.

From 2012:

The war on teachers: Why the public is watching it happen

The Answer Sheet is hosting Mark Naison.

This was written by Mark Naison, professor of African and African American Studies at Fordham University in New York and chair of the department of African and African-American Studies. He is also co-director of the Urban Studies Program, African-American History 20th Century. A version of this first appeared on the blog With A Brooklyn Accent.

Four significant paragraphs:

Let’s look at the way many in America’s shrinking middle class and battered working class view the teachers in their midst.

Large numbers of people are losing their jobs and homes, earning sub-standard wages and taking in their children who can’t find jobs. All the while, they see teachers, 80 percent of them women, who make better salaries than they do, have better health plans and pensions, and get two or three months off in the summer!

Many say to themselves: “Who do teachers think they are? Why should they live so well on my tax dollars when I can barely keep my head above water? At the very least, they should feel some of the insecurity I feel every day and face the kind of performance assessments workers in the private sector deal with all the time.”

That is the same sentiment that America’s unionized blue collar workers faced in the ‘70’s and ‘80’s and ‘90’s when big corporations started closing factories and slashing wages and benefits. The non-unionized work force in big industrial states refused to rally to the defense of their unionized counterparts, and industrial unions lost battles to maintain their wage and benefit levels that allowed them to live a middle-class life style or prevent plants from relocating.

He also points out that "if you undermine the job security, working conditions, and wages of one group of workers, it makes it easier for employers to undermine them for all workers."

[upaloopa]

1. We are becoming like rats on a sinking ship

Instead of patching the holes we fight each other for what ever dwindling supplies are left.

[madfloridian]

3. It's sad, isn't it?

I make people mad when I stand up for teachers' rights and students' rights to have real in-depth learning. And that's sad, too. We should all want that.

[MattBaggins]

47. You can hire one half of the poor to kill the other half

[truedelphi]

2. The Powers that Be hate all commoners - so why would teachers be left out?

You yourself have pointed out how privatized forces basically shut down a public school, whose building was owned outright by the school system, then take over that building (after selling it off to one of their buddies) and then rent the building back for a half million bucks a year.

It is always about following the money.

The media want to keep on telling us that the current school system is bad. There are indeed things that are not right about schools these days, but much of that could be fixed if the big bucks were about fixing that problem, instead of privatizing.

Local newspaper ran a cartoon that showed the lumber of the school's stairs and walls being stripped off the local school, including the flag pole! and all the materials then being carted over to the new "improved" "charter" school.

[Ishoutandscream2]

4. After 28 years working in public schools, I'm taking my retirement

First year of eligibility, and I'm running with it. Can't cope with it anymore. My wife, bless her heart, still has 11 years left. As long as they don't strip her pension.

[madfloridian]

5. I retired after 33 years. Would love to have taught a few more.

I loved the kids, but the system was killing me. Good luck in your retirement. Enjoy it.

[Ishoutandscream2]

8. Thanks. I hear ya.

I wanted to make 30, but new graduation plans and more paper work with no more help has driven me out. Gotta love the Texas legislature - the biggest bunch of assholes in the world.

[AnneD]

13. Just went in today....

and signed my papers. Twenty-five years as a School Nurse. I hate to tell you folks but there are none coming down the pike. We had 36 openings at the end of last year and they hired 25. The 11 positions were never filled. Many of the new Nurses are leaving and the older ones are retiring. I can make more money with less aggravation else where. I have at least 5 more years left in me. I am going to the private sector.

Those that can retire are and can you believe the district are still firing teachers. Frankly there were not that many bad teachers. They just want to replace the experienced teachers with the teach for America kids.

PS. I am in Texas

[Ishoutandscream2]

14. Congrats, Anne. And there are a lot of tired educators out there

I turned in the one TRS form to our central office, and I'm taking the rest of the materials from the "blue folder" to Austin personally on May 23rd. I tell you, I am so geeked. But it would have been nice to have made 30 years.

[AnneD]

17. We have a store front here in Houston....

I am mailing mine in certified mail.

[madfloridian]

15. We had school nurses only days a month.

It varied. Parent volunteers filled in. You can only imagine how that worked. They told everyone's business to everyone else. Not a good idea.

[AnneD]

16. And the legislature...

to accommodate the shortage, are giving the OK for 'trained' unlicensed personnel to do things like give insulin shots, tube feedings, and care for asthmatics. They were wanting me to train and sign off on these folks and I refused because basically, these folks are practicing under my license. I did not want to be the first test case and lose my license. Insulin is one of the most mis-administered drug next to heparin and most hospitals insist 2 nurse check off on the dosage and type.

I am bound by HIPPA and other laws. I am very strict about confidentiality for both kids, parents and staff. I have been ask point blank by CPS, lawyers, and other folk and unless you produce a warrant, you are leaving the clinic with bumpkis.

I will be working my last 5 years in the private sector and making a boat load of money but I will really miss my special ed kids. They still remain nearest and dearest to my heart.

[LuckyLib]

18. Kudos to you for your love and professional support to those kids over the years. And for standing

up to the cheapening of education by hiring untrained professionals. A few lawsuits when medications are mis-administered will sober up those school districts very quickly. It will happen.

[AnneD]

62. The question is not if....

but when. I will be the first one to stand in as an expert witness.

[Phlem]

6. The general public is pretty stupid IMO.

But it's not going away. It's easier to sway uneducated masses than the other.

See: George Bush and the Iraq

So defund brick and mortar with the charter schools program, increase the costs for higher education, then attack teachers and their salaries all the while tying their hands behind their backs with "No child left behind".

It's a full on attack on all fronts.



-p

[madfloridian]

7. ....

Yep. on all fronts.

[maddiemom]

21. The PTB like to keep the kids dumbed down. Some of the biggest battles I remembermember when

when teaching was the resistance of so many parents to the teaching of critical thinking. They saw it as indoctrination and repudiation of their usually very conservative (to put it nicely) values. Of course the forum was always open to the beliefs of all of them, it was just that critical thinking often began to win over some of those who came from more (sometimes sadly)bigoted homes. In later years I went back to sub in a very progressive high school in a university town. Most business people locally were pretty conservative, but well educated. Critical thinking, was, for a change, valued. It showed in the students' later successes. Nonetheless, the rest of the world is forging ahead of us everyday, while the U.S. becomes less and less the leader it used to be. You would never convince the anti-critical thinkers of that fact, of course.

[maddiemom]

22. Oops! Sorry for not proofreading my typos. Hope it didn't negate my thoughts.

[ancianita]

88. You nailed it. The downgrading of public schools goes with the ruining of the economy. The rich are

"done" with the rest of this society and would just as soon spend our tax money on themselves as on society's children -- and they're propagandizing how the public should let them -- blaming their stealth defunding on the alleged teachers.

They started it way back when they demanded that major universities close their departments of education back in the early 60's. I saw it happening.

[maddiemom]

97. Thanks, belatedly, since I just caught up. The furor over "clinging to their guns

and Bibles " ( I'll be respectful and capitalize) should make perfect sense. The agnostic/ downright atheism of our founding fathers has been twisted sadly into a world that a calm "Big Daddy' makes everything right and solves everything. "Wouldn't it be pretty to think so." I would love to have the answers, but will sadly die with Einstein, Sagan, and many others who have never figured it out. THAT is the real mystery. And Scary!

[Ex Lurker]

9. Many people want to scapegoat someone else for their kids being lazy, undisciplined, miscreants

and usually it's the teachers.

[liberal_at_heart]

74. You know nothing about how struggling through today's public school affects a child.

[blkmusclmachine]

10. War on Workers/War on Middle Class. Wrapped up w/a Third Way/bipartisan bow on top.

[DebJ]

11. I agree with Ex Lurker. Part of it is about parental denial of any responsibility.

They see their children as a part of a business model.
They turn in the raw materials to the 'factory' (school),
and they are supposed to get a 'return on their investment'
coming out the other end.
Doesn't matter what those raw materials are, or how they might be abused or allowed to run wild
outside of school.

It's the teacher's fault (therefore it is not mine).

[callous taoboy]

12. Those who complain would last 5 minutes in a classroom, IMHO.

They'd see why we need that break each year.

Oh, and for those who think it pays a living wage where I live: I also drive limousine tours every Saturday as well to make ends meet.

[maddiemom]

24. My ex, a manager/executive in industry and an engineer by education, never really repected my

years as a teacher and especially hated when students bothered me at home ( my grading papers, he never minded, working far more than an eight hour day himself). He looked at my pay as luxury and vacation money. When I took some years off to raise a family and support HIS career, he was delighted. A few years back, out of a job during a corporate bankruptcy and in the process of starting his own business, he signed up to sub in a local district for some extra cash. They were apparently so desperate for subs that they would take whatever weeks they were allowed to use non-teaching certified people. Now, of course, this story is from our kids, and not him. Apparently he went in looking for a few weeks of easy cash, and was thoroughly bummed out after one day. Never a quitter, he did go back for one more day. That was the end of his teaching days (secondary level, of course).

[callous taoboy]

64. Heh. I have 20 years under my belt, and there are days I'm not sure I'll make it to retirement.

Of course, I still love my classroom and the kids. I've had some exceedingly challenging children. It's mainly all of the other nonsense that I have had to put up with since NCLB that about drives me crazy at times. Sorry you didn't get his support, but I find it funny that he got a good dose of what you and I take on a daily basis.

[ancianita]

91. The public should know that ALL teachers put in 12 months' worth of work in 9. Every last one.

Summer was part of the agricultural model of scheduling the school year -- it had nothing to do with giving teachers time off.

Public school teachers are largely underpaid because that's what the public is willing to spend on their children. Until they pay more they won't get more. If they keep believing the cost/benefit PR of the 1%, they'll get even less out of teachers with the privitizing of their schools. Then what will they do. They need to wake up and be allies with professional educators now. Not later.

[callous taoboy]

114. So true.

[geretogo]

19. The right wing Plutocrats want to turn the masses back to the education level that existed when the

Constitution was being written .

[MoonRiver]

20. My daughter is about to start her first year of teaching Art in Kansas!

She's giddy with enthusiasm, despite the stupidity that just went down in Topeka. I guess ignorance is bliss.

[maddiemom]

28. Her administration's support for new teachers (fellow faculty are almost always

supportive) the make up of the district, age of kids, will be very important. BUT, in Art, she has many advantages in her enthusiasm. There's a lot of freedom there not seen in English, math or sciences. Most kids will be happy to "express themselves" in varied artistic (and sometime sloppy) mediums. This might sound like a problem, but art rooms are set for cleanup for (especially) the younger kids. I subbed for two decades and am the least artistic person in the world, but I always smiled when called into an art class. Even kids who were troublesome in other classes were usually engrossed, or at least, manageable. More freedom in the art room was appealing to many kids. This assumes your daughter had teaching and methods classes, and not just Art. A lack of training in dealing with students would be the only reason for concern. Otherwise she should look forward with enthusiasm.

[MoonRiver]

34. Thanks maddiemom, I think she will be fine.

She'll be in elementary. She loves Art and kids. What could go wrong?

[joeglow3]

30. Hopefully not in Kansas City district

I had a friend he taught there. He was great, well liked by the students, regarded as one of their top teachers and was teacher of the year. Two years later, he was fired up their shitty "last hired, first fired" policy. Nothing like firing a top employee and retaining bottom employees because he happened to be born later.

[MoonRiver]

35. No, not KC.

She'll be in a middle class suburban school.

[madfloridian]

38. Seniority is what you are speaking about.

It is an earned negotiated right by teachers' unions.

If you are advocating taking that right away you are advocating union busting.

[joeglow3]

44. I am advocating what is best for students

[MattBaggins]

49. You have Michelle Rhee's Talking Points down well

[madfloridian]

54. ....

So true. Thanks for saying it so I did not have to.

[ancianita]

72. Then you don't understand what is best for students -- the constancy of a professional staff.

[MicaelS]

23. All the Zero Tolerance bullshit has a lot to do with it, too.

People are sick and fucking tired of Zero Tolerance. And don't try and blame it on the Legislatures. Some child points his finger like a gun, draws a picture of a gun, etc, then some teacher, yes, often times a woman, is going running to the administration and the kid gets suspended. Kids have little or no freedom. Forget Free Speech. Kids can't wear certain clothing to school, can't do this, can't do that, this or that is grounds for suspension or expulsion or even arrest. Public Schools are turning into nasty little fascist police states. And things are often only changed or revoked when parents go the media.

When I was a kid 45 years ago, I used to draw picture of space battles in school. Today I'd probably get sent to counseling because of violence tendencies or some such horseshit.

I'm glad I never had kids. If any School Official pulled this Zero Tolerance bullshit on my kids, then someone at that school is really going to regret it. I'd sue their ass for every fucking penny and get them fired if I could.

And I'm really surprised that some teacher or administrator hasn't gotten their ass beaten over Zero Tolerance crap.

[madfloridian]

36. Teachers don't set policy. Zero Tolerance is set way above their heads.

And this statement of yours is really awful:

"Public Schools are turning into nasty little fascist police states"

[madfloridian]

37. "Public Schools are turning into nasty little fascist police states"

That's really awful to say.

[MicaelS]

39. The truth is sometimes awful.

I was lucky to have some excellent teachers when I attended public school. But that was back in the 1960s-1970s. The administrators on the other hand really sucked. In my high school 1971-1975, the single most important thing to the admins was not whether their was drugs or bullying in the school, it was getting the daily attendance report off to the State of Texas so they could get their money from the State. Every morning it was the same thing on the PA multiple times. "Teachers, PLEASE get your attendance reports into the office."

If I had a child today, I doubt I would send them to public school. I would either home school, or assuming I could afford it, send them to a private school.

[MattBaggins]

50. There wasn't a lick of truth in the nonsense you wrote.

Pure nonsense

[kelly1mm]

58. My wife is a public school teacher (at least for 2 more months!) and it is because of her

experiences at work that we home school our own kids.

It may not be that bad where you are but believe me it is bad in many places.

[chervilant]

55. I am glad you never had kids, too.

You saved some dedicated teachers from having to listen to your vulgar misinformation.

[Starry Messenger]

61. "often times a woman"

Wtf is that for?

[aggiesal]

25. As I always say ...

This is your tax breaks at work.

Usually to RW friends.

Everyone wants the services, but complain when they find out they have to pay for them.

[snot]

26. The overarching problem is

the giant sucking up of wealth by the 1% over the last several decades. By eviscerating collective bargaining rights, lowering taxes, diverting national revenues into privatized wars, prisons, infrastructure, etc. As a result, shocking numbers of kids come from impoverished backgrounds and attend underfunded schools.

US workers are among the most productive in the world, and have been for a long time; but the profits from their productivity gains have not been shared with them, nor have they been re-invested in projects having social benefit such as schools or infrastructure. Instead, the gains have been deep-pocketed and off-shored.

We've been looted.

[leftstreet]

32. +1

[mstinamotorcity2]

27. That crab in the

barrel mentality!! SAD!!

[madfloridian]

33. That's baloney.

I tried to give responses but now I don't bother.

[joeglow3]

43. I am interested. How do you effectively evaluate teachers?

How do you explain rates of teachers losing their state license being so much lower (by a LAAAAAARGE amount) than any other licensed professional?

[madfloridian]

45. You need to give me sources about that.

[BillZBubb]

85. How do you fairly compensate teachers?

Your question is a red herring and uses apples/oranges illogic. Other professions make a substantially higher income. Pay teachers like lawyers, engineers, etc. and then compare licensing.

[knitter4democracy]

41. Hyperbole much?

There are many ways to evaluate teachers, and the unions actually have systems that they endorse. The MEA here in Michigan has endorsed the Flint porfolio model, which actually doesn't look much different than the one my district uses.

Of course not all teachers are great. Every teacher I know talks of the one or two monsters we've all worked with regardless of where we've taught. We're all in favor of kicking them right out of the profession, too, but in order to do that, administrators have to do their jobs and get rid of them.

[Enthusiast]

31. It's a race to the bottom.

Except for the CEOs.

[mopinko]

40. people let it happen because many bear the scars of their "education"

and i will admit that in many cases, it is misplaced.
still start a thread here about the pain of grade school, and see the festering wound open up.

i dont just blame teachers. there is a reason many homschoolers refer to the common schools as the factory schools, or even the sausage factory schools.

many people just refused to feed their children into the maw of a broken machine.
and they decry all the parts of the machine. from self serving school boards down to lunch ladies who would make a kid go hungry.

that just is. that is the battle that teachers have to win.

[knitter4democracy]

42. There's a lot to this.

Of course, by the time people graduate from high school, they've had at least 40 teachers and known more support and administrative staffpeople. They all remember the small few who were awful, though, and might eventually admit that they had many good teachers and a few great ones.

[mopinko]

46. tis true.

many painful tracks crossed over by the system.
i do think that most of those who had a hand up from a dedicated teacher stick up for the profession in most of these situations.

somehow the wounded have more fuel for such things than the peaceful, tho.

[knitter4democracy]

51. I disagree.

In my experience, some of the most angry admit that it was a teacher who helped them in the darkest of times, but they don't see that teacher as needing help now. That teacher is seen as Other, someone who is all-powerful and somehow above it all, so that teacher isn't like these other lazy, yadda-yadda teachers. It usually takes a bit of debate to get them to see that the teacher who was there for them also deserves a fair salary.

The system hurts everyone, including those of us who work in it. That's why, when we are negotiating for new contracts, we have to remind people that our working conditions are their children's learning conditions.

[madfloridian]

57. "our working conditions are their children's learning conditions"

Well said.

[RebelOne]

48. To clarify the phrase "get two or three months off in the summer."

My daughter is a teacher in South Florida. Teachers opt to have money withdrawn from their salaries to carry them over during the summer months. They are not paid for that time off.

[knitter4democracy]

52. Thank you. That's exactly right.

The laws are also always written such that we cannot draw on unemployment during the summers, either, even though many districts pink-slip their teachers every year and don't know if they're hiring everyone back in the fall.

[madfloridian]

53. We had our 9 months salary divided into 12 months in our county.

You are right, didn't get paid for summer months.

[malokvale77]

56. I hate that this is happening

I saw it coming decades ago, but I don't like it a bit.

[madfloridian]

59. So do I.

So many good teachers with long careers are being harmed. All the testing under high pressure is harming the students. There just aren't any winners right now except the "reformers".

[Taitertots]

60. When you want to attack government, you have to start with the parts that are effective

Otherwise you only make the government more effective and undermine your goals.

And, they are an easy target. There are not enough teachers to have political influence. They don't make enough to donate for influence. Their services are only used by a fraction of the population at any given time. It is easy to come up with anecdotal negative stories.

[ancianita]

63. I taught in Chicago high schools for thirty-four years. This is good, but there's way more to it.

Parents, as they look back on their 'formative' years, have unresolved issues about their own parents, high school peers and teachers who were unwitting adult models. There's much more about their failure to ally with teachers that has a structurally established origin.

Good to see you here again, Mad.

[madfloridian]

66. Good to see you as well.

You made it through 34 years, I did 33. Not bad, huh?

Add to what you said...these parents feel more comfortable criticizing teachers since the Secretary of Education is doing it so well. It gives them more power, and gives the teachers less.

[ancianita]

69. That, along with not knowing how to be, as parents, their children's first teachers. They don't

understand the basic alliance between parents and teachers because of their own unresolved baggage about their own past education performance. And because there's no manual on how to be a parent. I worked hard from first day each year to clear up all that.

The biggest thing I did with them was to let them know that I'm a parent, too, full of doubts and with all the same teen 'issues' to deal with. But that, as a professional, I am always on their side, and that there would never be 'playing both ends against the middle' behavior from their children with me. I encouraged them to, "Get into your child's business. Look in those book bags -- you bought them! Control their time and money and you will control their integrity building." That kind of thing.

I told them what worked for me when my children failed to do homework, but not that it was the only solution, and that we'd keep trying all the other things I'd learned that work, and that homework is the basis of much accomplishment. That I would never waste their time with behavior issues, but only learning issues. I'd give them weekly written plans for class/homework and tests upfront for them to initial, or the students' participation grade would go down with each day they were late with the initialed weekly assignment wasn't received. I'd call every parent at least once at mid-term to see that, in fact, the initials were theirs. Lots of logistics and upfront communication always got us on the same side so that their kids knew we were serious about this college prep program. The kids really respected it even when they didn't like it. They learned what being a responsible adult was about on that level.

Once that got established after the first 'breaking in' marking period, and a supplies/organization system was established, I and my students could take off into all kinds of study, so to speak.

[madfloridian]

71. Calling every parent...did that every year. It paid off bigtime.

I let them know from the first day that I would be calling. Had a list for their phone numbers, told them to make a list of questions they wanted to ask me.

It paid off. It helped the parents, and it helped me. I also made a practice of calling parents when their child had a good day, esp. those who did not usually have them.

[ancianita]

73. Yep. Calling works.

[CFLDem]

65. Nah I think it's more of

a case of parents in denial that their kid isn't a wonderful special achiever who's going places.

So of course they lash out at the people who they think should 'fix' their kid instead of taking personal responsibility (you know like people used to do).

As George Carlin once said: kids are like anything else- a few winners and a whole lot of losers.

Oh well c'est la vie...

[The Magistrate]

67. We Are a Funny People, Ma'am

If an American learns that someone is making twenty dollars an hour for something he is paid fifteen dollars an hour for, his reaction is not 'Why aren't they paying me as much as that guy gets?' but rather 'Why's that guy getting paid more than me?'

[madfloridian]

68. Very true.

Hi Magistrate.

[ancianita]

70. That's part of it. But Americans are also forgetting the values their ancestors put on schooling.

Yes, schooling, not just education. Since schooling helps re-define what money can't buy -- a sympathy for intelligence and the courage and skills to seek information and solutions.

[Junkdrawer]

75. The war is on Public Education. Attacking public school teachers is a strategy....

How often do you see private school teacher salaries under fire?

[ancianita]

76. TENURE. DU needs to get the history of tenure straight. As well as the legal structure of schooling

Most people, including teachers, don't realize that the history of education is full of action -- states had to decide on whether or not to offer public education and how to fund it, and then make attendance compulsory -- the idea that, "If you want public education, you HAVE to use it." En Loco Parentis laws were part of the public school legal structure, but so was tenure. Here's why.

(This is a broad brush history, but it's still one that's not generally known.) Teachers had been 'itinerant' for 100 years. Neither teachers nor communities liked that much. Teachers realized early that if they were expected to Commit to communities' children, that they shouldn't have to look over their shoulders at how politics so easily used them as pawns and scapegoats for whatever societal ills were politicized in the 1800's and early 1900's. So, along with en loco parentis 'rules' came the building of professional unions -- lawyers, doctors and teachers -- along with guild workers' unions -- in those days.

That's how teachers made state legislatures and boards of ed structure Tenure. Tenure, people don't realize, is THE way that communities Commit Back to their proven teachers. The way to tenure would be earned, and in return, the teachers mobility would slow down, and teachers would be accepted as the 'scholars of their communities.' I myself, during my tenured years, taught many children from the same families. Whenever that happened, former students seemed so pleased to still have me around as their kids' teacher.

Parents today need to drop their mistaken notion that there's only one kind of authority -- theirs. Teachers teach that there is a difference between being IN authority and being AN authority. When students learn how to do the second, the first usually comes with a salary because of the second. But the two kinds of authority should be clearly understood. When being IN authority is all a school teaches (under the 'instructional leadership' of the principal), it doesn't teach much. It becomes an orderly but lifeless place.

[madfloridian]

78. Wow, great post.

[ancianita]

82. ...

Your whole thread is a great one!

[maddiemom]

98. Hey, this is a real squirmy can of worms. " En Loco Parentis" meant, by the late 1960's ,

that teachers were responsible for the well-being of students in every way, but God forbid ever disciplining (and certainly never touching them) in any way. I'm somewhat exaggerating here, but the best years I had as a teacher were in a "summer youth" program for "at risk" and semi deliquent teenagers. This included paying summer jobs that carried over to classroom work that addressed their particular learning problems. They were actually PAID to learn as part of the entire deal. Discipline was limited to one thing: being kicked out of the program. Ironically their work crew leaders, teachers, but usually young and less experienced, were almost always the ones to kick them out of the program. As the classroom teacher working with reading problems, I had several students I knew were major problems in a regular school setting, but became reachable and fun to know otherwise. I went to bat for one kid whose mom I knew from high school problems,but was "out of hand" with his work crew supervisor. Couldn't save him, but HEY: give that some thought, Paul Ryan!

[ancianita]

99. I'm not sure how you connect this to tenure laws, or what "can of worms" means here, but thanks

for sharing.

[maddiemom]

100. Sorry, I meant nothing to do with tenure. Responsibility with welfare of the kids

without any real disciplinary rights ( NO, not hitting)has become a problem over the past few decades.

[ancianita]

101. Ah, yes, the perennial problem.I and my colleagues always felt caught by the parents' constitutional

right to be as irresponsibile as they wish with their kids -- unintended or otherwise -- and we were left to deal with the 'readiness' consequences, then blamed when we couldn't undo years of age-inappropriate attention, skill or behaviors. All that before getting down to basic reading and communication skills. That reality was tough, but we knew that discipline could never and should never be the focus, or the kids would think that school is some kind of conformity boot camp, instead of a place to enjoy learning together and developing what I call a sympathy for the communication arts and intelligence.

[lindysalsagal]

105. Without tenure, the kids run the schools, Period. No B's or C's or F's, no discipline, no order.

Without tenure, do you think I can call a parent with the truth? Can I demand good work or classroom order?

Parents are often blind to their kid's shortcomings, and will defend their little angels no matter what they do.

Tenure is about reality and accountability, and there's no public education without it. There's only babysitting.

[ancianita]

106. YES!

[madfloridian]

110. .....

[Demo_Chris]

77. Many people are watching their income crater. They are looking at all public employees...

And considering the return on their investment. When it comes to teachers specifically, and public education in general, some people apparently do not feel that they are getting their money's worth. This isn't exactly new, and educators have had decades to make changes.

[madfloridian]

79. Thanks for making my point for me. You are right.

Teachers have their unions, they have not fallen in line.

Therefore their unions are under attack, even being marginalized from within by union leaders who got way too much money from folks like Gates.

Just as you said...we can't have one group have job security when no one else does.

Now whose union is next?

[Demo_Chris]

80. Respectfully, I believe you are over simplifying just a bit...

The PUBLIC is not 'going after' teachers because they have unions. States and counties perhaps, for a number of reasons, but the public not so much.

But then, in my opinion none of that matters. Again in my opinion, the question is not whether or not teachers are going to get a haircut, but rather how much stubble they will be allowed to keep. Public sector unions are like the zombies in that show The Walking Dead--at first glance perhaps scary, but if you don't panic and ignore their pitiful moans they are harmless. The only way to preserve public sector unions was to protect private sector unions, and the Boomers and Clinton finished those off with NAFTA. So here we are.

What I said was the simple truth: the public is weighting the cost versus the benefit, they are evaluating what teachers DO to earn the money and benefits they receive, and they are apparently not seeing it.

[madfloridian]

81. Your views of public unions are shocking to me. Said they are like zombies in Walking Dead? Really?

The cost of the "teach to the test" policies the public is backing while griping about teachers....will be high.

Many won't ever care that their kid is losing out on a full education while being trained to be good worker.

Many will care...but only much later will they realize it.

So you really still agree with me that the public overall will let teachers drown because they don't have job security themselves.

Public unions are like zombies? Really?

[Demo_Chris]

95. Lot of questions there...

The cost of the "teach to the test" policies the public is backing while griping about teachers....will be high.

I disagree.

Many won't ever care that their kid is losing out on a full education while being trained to be good worker.

Yeah, but that's nonsense. Objective standards are a GOOD thing for pretty much everyone. The exceptions are the few students and teachers who cannot make the grade.

So you really still agree with me that the public overall will let teachers drown because they don't have job security themselves.

Teachers are not even CLOSE to drowning. They are highly paid and generally have fantastic benefits when compared to the private sector. In any case, I think the public in general could not care less.

Public unions are like zombies? Really?

Yeah, really.

[ancianita]

83. Here is the tired cost/benefit analysis that the rich want the public to use on teachers. But for

THEIR private school teachers? Never. What the richies have gotten you and the rest of the public to buy into is the race to the bottom in costs. They spout 'execeptions,' such as Catholic church schools, where nuns who have all their basic necessities taken care of by the church teach for student tuitions of $3,000 - $10,000 / year.

But here's what the Richies won't tell the public -- that they themselves believe. They believe, as their actions show, that NO AMOUNT OF MONEY IS WASTED ON ANY CHILD'S EDUCATION. They BUY their kids' exclusive educational prep schools' path to the Ivies that way, along with making endowments that guarantee their kids' acceptances to the high status colleges. There is NEVER a tuition too high to weigh against THEIR benefit. They believe that "You get what you pay for," and that includes professional educators, with all the school resources -- trips, camps, special events and projects -- that these professionals use to enhance their children's intellectual achievements.

Now, we know that public schools are property tax supported, but that whole funding formula needs scrapping, along with the idea of cost/benefit analysis. We know that the highest socioeconomic areas have the best schools because they're resource-rich, and kids' own homes are the source of much of their education, while schools are supplemental to that whole education experience of trips abroad, high end technology, special camps and special work experience deals with their parents' business friends. In the low tax-supported districts, kids and teachers get starvation rations and are told to 'tough it out" and compete with the rich districts across the state. State public education is structurally rigged to preserve the privileged classes and screen out those with upward mobility ambitions. The public then takes on the 'blame the victim' outlook they are told to, without realizing how structurally, they're screwed. We teacher fight this class war fight in the schools all the time.

The formula the richies have used to ruin schools -- defund, 'reform' (which means deform through testing), stigmatize, privatize -- is about halfway successful at this point. The battle is on to expose their attempt to block all competition for their little ones.

One of the ways we fight this anti-teacher, anti-public school battle is to demand the transparency of state boards of education budgets, and realign salary scales, which overpay people who wouldn't be caught dead in the classroom. We the public must therefore demand the restructuring of salary scales. No one outside the classroom, from the principal to bureaucratic department desk jockeys to general superintendents, themselves, should be paid any more than the highest earning classroom teacher. AND no administrator of any school can draw a salary unless s/he teaches AT LEAST ONE CLASS PER DAY.THAT alone keeps principals on the political side of communities and their teachers, since they know the real value of education teachers provide that is beyond the simple dollar measure. My claim for years is that if we had supply managers at the district levels, we could wipe out the administrative structure in all states and NOT A RIPPLE would be felt in their classrooms.

THAT ALONE -- salary restructuring -- would free up billions to lower class sizes, which studies show is what the private schools have over public schools, and helps produce greater achievement levels. There are other remedies the public should know about, but if you want to look at cost/benefit, you HAVE to start with the CURRENT WASTE OF TAX DOLLARS ON NON-DIRECT STUDENT SERVICES.

I have other ideas, and have been yelling about them for decades.

[Demo_Chris]

94. Great solutions. nt

[LanternWaste]

84. Objective, peer-reviewed analysis to this simple truth?

"What I said was the simple truth: the public is weighting the cost versus the benefit,"

You of course have objective, peer-reviewed analysis to this simple truth, or (and I find this more likely), it's merely a sentiment predicated on anecdotal evidence and personal biases...?

[ancianita]

86. Wrong. All studies of achievement show that THE most important two factors of student achievement

are 1) the teacher, and 2) socioeconomic status of the parents.

The public must learn to value and demand the spending of tax monies on their students at the level that private school rich parents do. Every state has the budget to afford what it wants to afford, and education is no different from any other state "investment," when it comes to producing an intelligent, skilled voting electorate. Oh wait. That isn't what they want. Is it.

Peer reviewed is always better than politico reviewed, which invariably serves the 1% at the expense of the 99%. You can't duck this reality.

[senseandsensibility]

96. Don't hold your breath waiting

for any studies or analysis, let alone peer-reviewed ones.

[JCMach1]

87. Because Americans hate kids... especially an aging population

that doesn't want to support education for minorities...

[ancianita]

89. I'm aging, and so is Mad. I believe that oldsters know the value of education. I think this bashing

goes across classes and generations and can't be attributed to boomers, among the best educated in our history. It's easy to hit at targets you can see, including old people. Much harder to see the systematic stealth defunding and demonizing of public schools through legal channels.

[ancianita]

90. This is good video about how teacher bashing and the austerity move on the schools go hand in hand.

My take is that Weingarten, head of the AFT, was actually providing distraction to city hall, the mayor and his media while the teachers were out fighting for the preservation of the schools for the public's children. The strike was over teaching conditions which are also the public's children's learning conditions. -- and to show the public that the mayor is not their friend through school closures.

[madfloridian]

92. Just like Randi stood on stage with Bill Gates and mocked teachers who protested, walked out.

I once linked to this on twitter. It got a huge number of views. She responded to me in a not so pleasant way, but the video of her mocking the teachers of her own union (as other teachers mocked the protestors as well)....spoke for itself. I did not bother to answer her back.

She took the side of Bill Gates against her own teachers. Other union leaders have done the same.

Union head Weingarten mocks teachers who walk out protesting Gates' speech.

There is Bill Gates who does not like teachers' unions at all, sitting on stage at the AFT convention.... while the union head, Randi Weingarten, mocks the teachers who are walking out in protest. She mocks them from the stage.

It is an ugly scene. Mocking teachers who protest a man who is attempting to buy his way into public education. I should not say "attempting"....he has done it.

The mocking starts about 50 seconds in.

Randi came from the culture of the Broad Superintendents Academy, another man who has bought his way into public education. She was on the staff of the Broad Academy.

Now she mocks teachers who don't appreciate Bill Gates being asked to speak to the union he is attempting to marginalize.

There is more at the link about what they were saying.

[ancianita]

93. You're right. She knew better than to dis the CTU's strike as 'wildcat,' though. She's a sellout

to privatization. Along with Rhee and too-little-too-late Ravitch.

Teachers should be listened to for reasons that escape them all.

[mike_c]

102. I'm presently at a statewide meeting of my faculty union...

...and I completely agree with the OP. The attacks on teachers are part and parcel with plans to undermine the security and power of working class labor unions. Private industry unions were the low hanging fruit, and they've been decimated. Less than 7% of the private corporate work force is still organized-- the rest are easy prey to job insecurity and economic pressure, as the OP notes. Public sector labor is the harder nut to crack, but that attack is well underway. Less than 15% of public sector workers still belong to unions with full collective bargaining rights. Teachers are currently among the most vulnerable remaining targets, but as we've seen in states across the U.S., public workers' rights to organize, participate in the political process, and bargain collectively are all under broad assault.

After the teachers it will be someone else. Many states already limit the rights of public safety workers' unions to concerted action, so they're already half neutralized, but their day is coming too if teachers and postal workers, etc. don't hold their barricades now.

[deathrind]

103. It should be a "no brainer"...

...(for lack of a better phrase), that Teachers have protection in their jobs. A Teacher can only do so much to get a student to understand and internalize whatever subject a Teacher is teaching a student. A large part of a students want/desire to learn anything begins with the students upbringing and guidance from parenting. A Teacher cannot be held responsible for deficiencies in these areas. Teachers all too often get scapegoated by parents who have failed in their parenting.

[gulliver]

104. The only way out is voting reliably and straight Democratic.

The whole problem is this downward spiral of "misanthropy" the public is in. Everyone thinks they are standing up to others and holding others accountable. Most people probably feel they are in a socioeconomic cold war—misunderstood, put upon, screwed, and bullied. It isn't just a war on teachers. It's a population-wide auto-immune disorder.

I would start with the drug war. Really any form of oppression that has a payroll needs to go, but the drug war stands out.

The whole Republican approach is fundamentally wrong-headed. That's why I vote Democrat every single time for every single office.

[madfloridian]

107. Agree about the drug war.

I vote Democratic, but I do need to say this is their policy as well. It is bipartisan, and both parties' leaders stand strong together. There are few if any political leaders standing for public schools.

[gulliver]

108. I think it's all tied together.

The drug war and similar misanthropic mistakes ultimately strengthen the mistake of not supporting the public schools. Supporting the Democratic Party leads to a change in the Democratic Party. The idea that you can "accountability" some entity into compliance with your wishes sometimes works, but this isn't one of those times. The motivation to "accountability" Democrats into a compliant policy is the same motivation behind the wish to "accountability" teachers into providing a good education for students. It's silly and, in an unproductive but all-too-easy to adopt way of thinking, offensive.

The opposite approach is empowerment and trust, and it is the right approach.

[madfloridian]

109. There must be accountability for the companies taking over public schools.

Or else there will soon be no public education left.

I am not sure we send the right message when our party knows they have our support no matter what they do. In my case I choose to vote Democratic, but I can see why some choose other ways.

I did trust that our country would always have public education. Now I don't think it will.
I trusted Democrats to stand up for it, and they have not.

We can not make a difference if we don't fight back on issues. I think we kept them from cutting the social safety nets as drastically as they planned to do. I think we have made a difference by really sounding off on issues.

However we have made NO difference in saving public schools. None at all.

[gulliver]

111. I don't think we should forgive failing to vote Democratic.

That's where I put final accountability. On the voters. Voting out Republicans is the only way to get to the deep roots of the problem. People who fail to vote out Republicans fail the public schools—and everything else. They are the worst kind of shirkers and political deadbeats, yet they are far to often considered understandable. I don't understand them. I think a lot less of people who don't vote out Republicans at every opportunity, and I highly encourage that attitude.

If we assume that vote shirking is acceptable reality, then we do get ourselves into a "rationing" situation where Democratic constituencies feel powerless except through the use of futile, internally competitive, self-damaging threats. But the shirking isn't acceptable.

The social safety net got a lot of juice from the Dems in the form of the ACA and in many other ways. Why not the teachers? Well, one reason might be that someone getting health care, unemployment benefits, or mortgage support comes before a difficult-to-measure, politically treacherous "qualitative improvement" in education. If teachers want something from the Dems, then everyone (not just the teachers, but the reprobate, inexcusable vote shirkers) needs to ensure the Democrats have enough power to be able to work on non-life-or-death priorities like education.

[madfloridian]

112. This has nothing to do with our giving Dems power.

Last edited Sun Apr 13, 2014, 08:36 AM - Edit history (1)

This has to do with the fact that this administration is openly carrying through Bush education policies because it firmly believes in them. Both Obama and Arne have warned not to let teachers' unions have too much say. That's busting unions right there.

They are supporting giving our public funds to private companies to run the schools. That is also inexcusable.

This is not whether they have the power to bring change....they ARE supporting these policies wholeheartedly. These policies are ruining careers of experienced teachers by using false means of evaluation formed in conjunction with Bill Gates, Eli Broad, the Waltons, etc.

It is way too simplistic now to say that voting Democratic only is the answer to our problems. It simply is not.

[ancianita]

113. This is the school I used to teach at. Merit based scholarships now surpassing $1 MILLION.

Not need based. Merit based. Over $1 MILLION.

This school and many like it in Chicago have hella great professional educators that their communities appreciate. Appreciate, y'all!

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-scholarships-brotman-talk-0331-20140413,0,7103129.story