General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBecause knives were used in the mass stabbing attack yesterday, we should not regulate cars
Regulating cars would have done nothing to stop the knife attack yesterday.
If you regulate cars and make them safer, or make people have to meet more requirements to use/own them, they'll simply use knives, which are comparatively easier to use/own.
If you regulate cars, only law abiding people will follow the regulations and register and follow the rules.
Those who break the rules, laws and regulations associated with cars, they won't care.
Therefore, because knives were shown yesterday to be quite dangerous in their own right, there is no point in either strengthening regulations of cars, driving, or drivers. Because it just won't work and criminals will just find a way around it anyway.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Owning a car, like most other things, is a right (if you have the money you can buy one - you just can't drive it everywhere).
Guns and knives are similar. You can own them but cannot, legally, carry or shoot them anywhere you like.
Some folks want to change that to remove the right to purchase one item but not the others.
The law says you cannot use your car, knife, gun to harm others. To get a license to drive you have to pass a test, get a photo ID, etc - to own a car you do not.
You are not regulating cars but the use of them on public property. Gun use is also regulated on public property (try carrying one into a courtroom).
You want to make more laws about who can carry or shoot on public property - fine. But don't infringe on private property, hunters, sport shooters, etc on their own land or that of their friends.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)keep up guy.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Then we have lost too many rights.
I think folks should be able to own and grow pot plants as well - stopping them from doing so and making it criminal has hurt our country and many millions of people and been a waste of money.
What you DO with things you own is another matter entirely. And we have plenty of laws dealing with that.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)driving is a privilege allowed by laws, as is owning knives.
clearly both of these things will be banned in the absence of a constitutional protection.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Right now you have the right to buy those things.
Do you want to remove that right and if so does the same reasoning you want to do so apply to other things?
Usage vs Ownership - regulate usage (as we already do) is one thing, prohibition is another.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)why haven't you advocated for a constitutional right to own a car?
i think this is just talk.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)When people start wanting to remove all cars because of what less than one percent do with them I will be right there along with other liberals to point out how dumb it is.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)and all driving.
often in threads about guns.
i'm surprised you are so cavalier about this.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)You don't need a license/etc to own a car.
If your logic in limiting the right to own something (like a gun) is because a few misuse it and you apply that same logic to other things (like cars) you wind up with 'ban cars'.
Some folks here want to ban people from being allowed to purchase a gun because of deaths and accidents. There are many deaths and accidents involving cars and knives. Therefore, if you aim is to protect everyone from something someone else owns that could cause harm and your belief is that banning such things is the way to go about it....then ban cars and knives as well.
That is where we the logic breaking down. We see how silly the whole idea is. Cars, guns, knives, etc are just tools people use - to ban them because a few don't use them properly is just dumb.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Unless your sarcasm/satire detector is fubar, I very much doubt you've seen any such thing.
Bazinga
(331 posts)ARMS, n. plu. [L. arma.]
1. Weapons of offense, or armor for defense and protection of the body.
Webster's 1828 dictionary.
Bandit
(21,475 posts)Or how about Anthrax? Should you be able to possess anthrax? There are many things that the government regulates including switchblade knives.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Firearms have been used to hunt and defend oneself since this country was created.
A nuclear weapon affects a larger area (hence the WMD designation).
IF you want to continue with that line of reasoning, that the government restricts ownership of a few items and therefore can and should others, why not restrict abortion, owning a knife, tv's, certain types of clothing, etc?
If you cannot make the argument for any of those things and you are happy with just the simple 'well, they restrict one thing and their logic for doing so doesn't matter' than where do YOU personally draw the line or do you prefer a few folks in DC get to make all the choices for you?
Guns help feed family, help the elderly and others have some sense of security in their own home, others shoot for sport. We have made laws on how you can use them.
Bandit
(21,475 posts)constitutionally protected. Such as alcohol. Alcohol is protected by the US Constitution but many Counties outlaw it. There is much precedent for gun restrictions. Machine guns are illegal to own without special permission. Why is that do you suppose? I would guess because they are capable of rapid fire. Large capacity magazines provide the exact same thing. Why should there be no restrictions on those?
IronGate
(2,186 posts)I know some restrict it due to blue laws, but I don't think any county outright bans it.
onecaliberal
(32,894 posts)Pope county in Arkansas is a DRY county. They BAN it, you can not purchase alcohol in that county.
IronGate
(2,186 posts)Thanks for the info.
onecaliberal
(32,894 posts)My best friend lives there. (Lifelong dem) There are other counties in that state where you can not purchase alcohol.
oneofthe99
(712 posts)onecaliberal
(32,894 posts)And it doesn't change the fact that you still can't buy it there, you have to drive an hour away to even get your hands on any.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)A ban of the sort that gun grabbers support would make it illegal to possess or import alcohol, which is not the case with Pope County, AR.
The only prohibition in Pope County is one against sales of alcohol.
eom
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Just giving you this for a little info. Where I grew up this was not a concern. When I started vacationing in NC and Kentucky I had to really pay attention. Just because it is a dry county doesn't mean that one cannot possess alcohol. Sometimes you have to drive to the next county over and bring it home. Knowing the laws with respect to this is important.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dry_communities_by_U.S._state
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)On the one hand I don't see why they should restrict lawn darts or switchblades. Just because they do does not make it right.
And you can own a machine gun, you just need more paperwork - which brings us to:
Common uses. A gun has a common use of self protection and hunting for food. You have the right to protect yourself and gather/hunt for food (though restrictions apply on public lands and on some animals). Machine guns could be seen to fall outside of that scope but many feel they do not (and both sides have a point).
Concerning lawn darts - the ban is somewhat silly. One can make such things at home easily from things you find at a hardware store. I am sure some would want to ban the sale of anything that could be used to make them or throw people in jail who make their own at home, but again I see that as just plain stupid.
Just because the government can and has banned some things not make it right (as we have seen with alcohol - and though some counties outlaw the sale of it you can still own alcohol and drink it).
Guns serve a legitimate purpose in society, bows and arrows before that. If you want to restrict the right to self defense to only those in power more power to you, but I don't. I don't own a gun but someday may like to purchase one, especially if I end up living back out in the country. If others don't want to own a gun they don't have to buy one.
Bandit
(21,475 posts)mean that some sensible regulations can not be put into place. Background checks, restrictions on large capacity magazines, shotguns with less than eighteen in barrels, etc. Guns are an integral part of America but so should be common sense.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)There are some here (and elsewhere) who do want bans.
I am a realist when it comes down to it.
I used to work in the reloading business. We sold plenty of dies for .50 cal and such. Knew people who shot just for fun and would spend hours testing different loads, target practice, etc.
Some folks did have large magazines and while I don't see a general 'need' for them I can see why they are worrisome to some. Banning them doesn't really see the way to go though. The idealist says just let people own me, the realist sees the need for compromise and while not restricting them having sales of them recorded (if it would make people 'feel' more safe - it won't stop criminals from using them though or making their own....)
Some folks think I am against any laws or regulations at all, not true. What I am against is using fear and hyperbole to promote laws. I am biased in that I worked in the industry and met a lot of people the world over who shoot just for the heck of it and collected guns. What we see day in and out is one side of the issue - the few who use guns to harm others. They are not the norm, no one likes such people, and we all want to keep guns from such people and get them the help they need.
That is where the realist comes in - background checks done by states? Fine with that. Getting rid of all semi-autos because of those few? Silly. I think many in the gun community would be ok with restricting large capacity magazines -if- they knew it was not a first step in adding more and more to that list - and I am reminded of when I was younger and in Ohio they added not wearing seat belts as something they could ticket you for - lawmakers promised it would only be a secondary offense and years later bumped it up to a primary. Might be ok with some but the point it is they start with something they can get by and then incrementally add to it. We see the same thing with abortions where states say they won't ban them, just want to add this one restriction. Then another next year....
We fear the end result (banning all guns) and don't trust those who say 'just one more law' - and no matter what you do there will always be some who won't obey and so we add more (thinking they will). Make no laws? No. But at some point, statistically, you will always have people that won't be affected but the vast majority will. Every shooting has broken some laws that were meant to prevent them - and prevention does work for over ninety nine percent of gun owners already.
hack89
(39,171 posts)as it stands right now, the only explicitly defined gun ownership right is the right to own a handgun for self defense - that is straight out of Heller, which also explicitly states that guns can be regulated.
And alcohol is not protected by the US Constitution - the second section of the 21A explicitly protects the power of states to regulate and even ban alcohol.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)i mean that kind of statement doesn't sound like it makes sense, at first, but wait a while, and yeah, it still doesn't make sense.
hack89
(39,171 posts)no American has ever had the constitutional right to own explosive devices, crew served weapons or artillery. That definition was further refined in 1938 and has served us well ever since.
So no - we should not have the right to own the items you mention. It is settled law.
Bandit
(21,475 posts)still outlaw it.. Just because it is a supposed constitutional protection does not always mean it really is. If one Amendment can be by-passed so can any of them.
hack89
(39,171 posts)so it specifically protects the power of local government to regulate and even ban alcohol.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)Gunpowder was and is an inherently dangerous powder. The common law rule was if gun powder blew up, the owner of the powder was liable for any damage, even if he was without fault and did everything right. Thus if kept gunpowder in your home and it harmed someone, you were liable (and the difference between Civil and Criminal liability was NOT that different back in 1787, the divergence was ongoing as it had been for centuries, but they is and was an overlap between Civil Liability and criminal negligence.
The other rule of law NOT changed by the Second amendment, was that if you fired a weapon, you were responsible for anything it hit. Thus if you carefully fired a weapon and killed someone anyway, you were liable for manslaughter (Murder required an intent to kill, manslaughter did and does not).
I bring these two items up for when it comes to atomic weapons, both rules apply. i.e. if an atomic bomb goes off, the owner of the weapon is liable for any damage. The law also permits the Government to pass regulations that minimize such losses, regulations that can make owing such weapons to expensive (an effective ban).
Atomic bombs contain radioactive material. Under the above rules, if anyone is harmed do to that radioactivity, the owner has to pay. Given that such harm would be widespread, the Government could pass reasonable regulations that someone who owns such weapons keep them in a place where the radioactivity will harm no innocent third party. Thus the atomic weapon may be cheap to obtain compared to where it has to be kept.
Just like the Government of 1792 (The adoption of the Bill of Rights) did not change any of the strict liability laws as to Gunpowder or liability if you fired a weapon, atomic weapons by their nature are inherently dangerous (as are the Anthrax you mention). Thus the same rules as to Gunpowder applies to Atomic Weapons, Chemical Weapons and Biological weapons, reasonable regulations are permissible, and given the nature of these weapons reasonable regulations can include storing them someplace safe which can be on a Government base or if no such base is available banned.
Every one of the Rights in the Bill of Rights are subject to reasonable restrictions, if such restrictions are the only way to maintain over safety. Thus a ban on private individuals owning Atomic bombs, biological weapons and even Chemical Weapons are justified under the concept that these are so inherently dangerous that anything but a ban would be ineffective.
Now, the real issue is how far down the list do one go? Technically one can own a Supersonic Air Plane in the US, but they can NOT fly it (Sonic Booms are something stick liability will apply to). One can own artillery, the real question is the ban on ammunition violate the Second Amendment, if someone can store such ammunition safety?
The same rules applies to Tanks and other Armored Vehicles, you can own them, but you can NOT operate them on the public roads. Such a ban can be justified do to excess damage to roads from the tracks (If the tracks used do NOT do such damage, then use of such vehicles on roads may be permissible, but such safe tracks also lose the ability to dig into the ground to give the tracks vehicle traction on bad soil).
Remember the Second Amendment does NOT require the State or Federal Government to do anything, thus if they is no place to fire such weapons, one can not fire such weapons. Thus reasonable restrictions could include NOT hoarding ammunition that the Government determines is unsafe AND that such a ruling is NOT arbitrary (i.e, there are facts that support the Government Regulations are being reasonable, not a back handed attempt to ban something the government does not want).
In my opinion, Atomic bombs, being radioactive, can be banned by the Government to be owned by Civilians on the ground of radioactivity problems. Anthrax and other biological and Chemical weapons suffer from a similar problem, to high a threat to be stored anywhere but the most secure facilities, and civilians rarely have that capacity and as such can be banned.
Lesser weapons are more questionable. Having a Tank may frighten someone, but unless you take it off your land, it will cause your neighbors no harm unless it is stolen (and Strict Liability of Gunpowder NEVER extended to the use of Stolen Gun powder by third parties, thus the same rule as to tanks and other weapons). I have always question the constitutionality on the ban on Automatic Weapons, for such weapons are clearly a type of Weapon a member of a militia would prefer to carry into combat. The harm such weapons can do is like someone holding a musket in his home, it is dangerous only when it is loaded. Thus should be constitutional (but given the life sentence one gets if convicted I am NOT about to challenge the ban on automatic weapons for I fear many of the same people on the US Supreme Court will rule that such a ban in constitutional for it is not needed for "Self protection" the key to their ruling as to the various bans on pistol ownership. Scalia has even hinted at this. In simple terms Scalia does not fear someone with a pistol, for that is just a hood. Scalia fears someone with an M-16 for that may be a revolutionary).
In short, I think a Government Ban on any weapons that can be shown that if NOT properly stored can cause harm. On the other hand any weapon or ammunition that can be properly stored can not be banned. Most weapons most people can buy are of the later type (and that can include Tanks and Artillery and supersonic jet fighters). Weapons that are known to "leak" (Gas, bugs or nuclear radiation) can be banned for such leaks can cause massive harm to other people for they are the most like Gunpowder and the strict liability rulings under the Common Laws as to Gunpowder and other similar inherently dangerous items.
geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)AFAIK all states regulate knives.
STATE KNIFE LAWS
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)car regulations should be thrown out, and possibly knife regulation.
they don't work, criminals ignore them and people will just die from other stuff.
if they don't die from cars, they'll just die from knives.
we can't do anything about any of this stuff, no regulation in the history of mankind has ever worked, no law has ever slowed a criminal by even tenths of a second from committing their crime, no regulation of a car or knife has stopped all deaths associated with either of those things.
regulation, laws and rules on stuff doesn't make anyone safer. the argument is that nobody should bother.
geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)rrneck
(17,671 posts)Before you know it knife nuts will hear this dog whistle and inundate us with knife porn and bullshit history about how knives have been around forever and they're just tools and shit.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)The gun fanciers are going to find some rationale for their bad habit, no matter how tenuous or outright stupid.
Love the OP.
hack89
(39,171 posts)it is not complicated.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)and also cars, which are also currently completely illegal and are being confiscated as we speak because in the absence of a constitutional protection, they have been made illegal by the "grabbers".
hack89
(39,171 posts)It is simply that the legal standard becomes much higher - but then you know that.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)surely you aren't saying that one is able to own a knife? that thing your mother told you to be careful with and not play with?
those are banned. you can't have those anymore, they've all been made illegal. the grabbers are so worried about your safety that they banned them because there was no constitutional amendment and because all rules and regulations all inevitably lead to the slippery slope of fullscale bans.
and so thus, our regulation of knives and cars has now left us with what --they are now completely illegal. nobody can own them except criminals who don't care about the laws.
how did this happen?
the very first law and regulation of a car or knife.
that moment was immediately followed with a ban of both, because prohibition immediately follows.
hack89
(39,171 posts)but more importantly, the resistance to many proposed regulations is twofold: some are feelgood measures that do not actually address the problem and are mere security theater - registration and AWBs come immediately to mind. Gun owners are not willing to give up their rights so you can "feel" safer.
Secondly, gun control advocates are not to be trusted. You always tells us where you want to start but you never tell us where you want to finish. "Its a good start" is a common comment after some gun control law is passed. Part of the issue is that the gun control movement is fragmented and speaks with different voices. Naturally we pay more attention to the loud extremists - especially when the supposedly more rational gun control advocates never challenge their more extreme compatriots. That would lead a reasonable person to believe that while you may not personally support an all out ban, if one were to happen you would not oppose it. Look at the more prominent anti-gunners at DU. They are not doing your movement any good with their constant references to the KKK and RW militias.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)furthermore, many gun advocates have actually stated, verbatim, "let's ban all cars".
now i never said "let's ban all guns" but you say that i support that.
but you also say that those who actually said "let's ban all cars" don't support that.
it's honestly not worth the effort to attempt to find the endpoint of your pretzel logic.
hack89
(39,171 posts)I support all proposed laws except AWBs and registration.
But you would never admit that. The very fact that I own guns and have the nerve to disagree with you is enough to make me a gun nut.
I know you don't support total bans - but I also know that you would not oppose one if one was proposed. A fine but important distinction. Unless of course you are willing to go on the record as promising to actively fight such a proposal?
rrneck
(17,671 posts)groundloop
(11,522 posts)What do you propose we do to reduce or eliminate innocent victims being gunned down?
hack89
(39,171 posts)1. Universal background checks for all gun sales.
2. The states obey the law and keep the background check databases up to date.
3. End the war on drugs and focus the justice system on violent crimes. The biggest predictor of someone becoming a murderer is a history of violent crimes. Lets not give violent offenders second, third or forth chances. Lets put them in prison before they kill or maim someone.
4. Since two thirds of all gun deaths are suicides, we need full mental care as part of any healthcare reform. Since mental health issues play a huge role in mass killings, that makes even more important.
5. I would license all gun owners - a system like Illinois Firearm Owner's Identification Card (FOID) would be good. A FOID would then be required to purchase guns and ammo. You can then require background checks and safety training as a continue for getting a FOID.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)what can I say - you are truly unique.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Both can be considered "arms."
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)sure the left and right arm look different but you wisely pointed out that they are both arms.
madinmaryland
(64,933 posts)last week and bought a set which also included forks and spoons. They did not run a background check.
Hip_Flask
(233 posts)Do I have to register it as a sawed off weapon now?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)don't you worry everyday that you will lose the right to butter your toast because it's not in the constitution?
Hip_Flask
(233 posts)Dr. Strange
(25,923 posts)only outlaws will be able to spread butter on their bread.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)fight the power.
Dr. Strange
(25,923 posts)Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)madinmaryland
(64,933 posts)only outlaws will be listening to shitty music!!
Dr. Strange
(25,923 posts)madinmaryland
(64,933 posts)U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)Last edited Fri Apr 11, 2014, 02:38 AM - Edit history (1)
Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!
Dr. Strange
(25,923 posts)and they both appeared in that one Chick tract, they really shouldn't be mentioned together.
But in madeinmaryland's defense, he thinks the Brazilian joke is funny, so clearly his mind has gone a little scooters.
U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)IronGate
(2,186 posts)BENGHAZI!!!!!!! IRS!!!!!!
MindMover
(5,016 posts)Bazinga
(331 posts)underpants
(182,877 posts)Rec'd
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)Essentially.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)You could probably post about swimming pools, fire extinguishers, cans of beans, and bicycle wheels and some here would find their way to the gun issue.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Iggo
(47,565 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,361 posts)about guns. I know, you can't believe how goddam stupid those people are, but they do talk that way.
This thread provides a vital service of satire about the idiots.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)"Some animals are more equal than others."
Warpy
(111,339 posts)They must pass certain safety standards, be inspected ever so often, and their owners must be proficient in using them.
beevul
(12,194 posts)If I so desired, I could take a vehicle, remove the seatbelts, put aircraft landing lights on the roof, smash out the other lights, the windshield, remove the doors, and do 130 mph across any private property I have authorization to do so on, without a license, insurance, registration, plates, or any other paperwork. And it would be completely legal.
What you are talking about, applies only to public use.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)oneshooter
(8,614 posts)jehop61
(1,735 posts)never miss using a tragedy to try to garner support for their cause. It's so tiresome.
NealK
(1,879 posts)And they hurt from the massive facepalm.
beevul
(12,194 posts)And some of us look at places with strict gun control, like say Japan whos suicide rate is higher than our by quite alot, where they can beat a confession out of you with no issue of legality...
And hurt ourselves from the massive facepalm.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)look at the recommends, people get it. you don't. if you don't get it, i don't particularly care. the main thing i care about is if you try to make people misunderstand the issue to get them to agree with your point of view.
TheSarcastinator
(854 posts)Now that is magical thinking.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)as it should be.
you're out of step here, you want me to pretend the 28 recommends are less representative of regular users than you, 1 user's disapproval?
the hell i will.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)One just has to look at who is hitting the rec button to really put a value on it.
oneofthe99
(712 posts)pro gun ownership .
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Not really, hurricanes are actually quite well ordered and understood.
I couldn't resist the temptation to connect to the song, however.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)I have just always wanted to say that. In reality, if they do make knives illegal, the reason they will pry my knives out of my cold, dead hands is because the cops will shoot me with their guns and take my knives.
But, no, guns don't kill people...
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Last edited Fri Apr 11, 2014, 02:21 PM - Edit history (1)
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)People do. And if they didn't even have a knife, they'd still cut the veggies just by looking at them and willing them to cut themselves.