There's way too much focus on Zimmerman

[Enrique]

what struck me dumbfounded when I first heard the story was the fact that Zimmerman wasn't arrested. That decision wasn't made by Zimmerman, it was made by the Sanford Police Department.

And the more I read about the story, the more seriously questionable conduct came out, the fact that they "overrode" an eyewitness account about who was screaming, and the fact that they drug-tested Trayvon but not Zimmerman, the fact that they didn't even notify the parents for two days (wtf!), the fact that they didn't even let Zimmerman tell them what happened, and on and on...

Everyone's talking about Zimmerman, we're seeing his photo over and over, what about Bill Lee? Yes he stepped down but does it end there? Is anyone looking into his background? What about the rest of the department? Who replaced Lee and what's his background?

So many questions and no one's asking them. The more I hear about Zimmerman, I just think, let this all come out in the trial. But even if Zimmerman gets the death penalty, the questions will remain about that police department. And it's not at all clear that their problems are in the past.

[Rex]

1. Hard to get the death penalty when you haven't even been arrested.

I will be shocked if he gets arrested after all this time.

[Enrique]

3. I'm expecting him to get arrested

but if he doesn't, we should be looking at Angela Corey. I had to look her name up because no one is talking about her.

[Rex]

4. I have to admit, I am starting to wonder.

They buried the body and the PD wants to 'move on'...I hope that doesn't turn out to be the case.

[grasswire]

27. I was just about to google her.

She was on Nancy Grace's show tonight -- a tabloid sensational crime show.

WHY would a prosecutor overseeing a high-profile case go on a tabloid TV show?

Something is very very amiss here. Some kind of corruption or graft is simmering right under the surface.

[zbdent]

2. "too much focus on Zimmerman"???

Seems like the initial problem began when there was not enough focus on Zimmerman ...

[robinlynne]

8. I think the poster's point is this: A hate crime was commmitted. The police let the man walk free!!!

The injustice served by the police is huge, and even bigger than the hate crime. And it enables hate crimes to happen easily.
Zimmerman is a bad man, no doubt. but the police who let him go may bear even more responsibility, and may be the reason Zimmerman, and others like him believe they can commit hate crimes with no repercussion.
because they can.

if Zimmerman knew he would be sentenced to life without parole for murder, maybe he would have been filled with the smae hatred, but would not have acted upon it.

[EFerrari]

5. Agreed. The Sanford PD are the repeat offenders here. n/t

[Democrats_win]

6. The Sanford police cover-up is almost as bad as the crime.

It might make them accessories to the crime after the fact.

[zbdent]

36. Come now, the police don't cover things up ... (sarcasm)

Why, you'd think that there were conspiracy theories about a Massachusetts Democrat's accident being whitewashed ...

[saras]

7. The coverup is WORSE than the crime. Which points to a solution...

... the police are clearly guilty of a whole bunch of crimes, conspiracy not the least among them. Were the feds to charge them with these crimes (with immunity for testifying against Zimmerman), probably everything would clear itself right up.

[Blue_Tires]

10. not only that, but I'm willing to bet

after their chief got humiliated in public certain people in the cop fraternity have been working overtime leaking dirt on Martin and his family

[TacoD]

9. Chief Bill Lee didn't really step down

He just went on paid vaca...err, I mean administrative leave.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. Actually the decision not to arrest him was made by the State Attorney

assigned to the case at the time. A new one has been assigned and she has not ordered his arrest yet. They both have decided to go the Grand Jury route. They are not required to tell us what and are not.

We really do not know much of the key details. The rest of the police reports, EMS reports, autopsy results, etc are not released. Then we have the state and federal probes. Again, nothing has come out to date.

We are all infuriated by the lack of information, but demanding heads on stick without it is premature.

[EFerrari]

12. No. There was a corpse. Until the facts are sorted out

the default shouldn't be to allow the shooter to go free.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

13. So anyone who kills someone in self defense goes to jail until they are cleared?

While I cannot believe there is not enough to arrest Zimmerman in this case, the general case has to be arrest only those who have evidence against them (aka probable cause)

[Lilyeye]

14. Agreed.

Some of the focus needs to go to these corrupt cops as well.

[TeamsterDem]

15. The mere fact that he wasn't arrested is exactly the point to me

I think he's very likely an awful human being with tons of issues and biases, but he's not the only one like that in this country, and being a jerk/racist isn't a crime. That he committed a crime (or almost undoubtedly did) is the issue. I live in a city in which I'm 100% sure that if I or any other person shot someone out on the street we'd at least be arrested/detained for an interview (and blood samples/forensics/ballistics done).

This case actually disturbs me slightly more than the dragging death of James Byrd in Jasper, Texas, because at least there the perpetrators were aggressively pursued by law enforcement. We can't expect the world to be free of people like Zimmerman, but we should expect that law enforcement won't help criminals avoid punishment.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. Have you read the published police report?

According to the first two responders (only reports released so far) Zimmerman was detained, hand cuffed, taken to the station for questioning. His handgun was taken and entered into evidence. We do not know what if any tests were done or samples taken. No other reports have been released.

[TeamsterDem]

17. Good point, but he was still not charged

In my view this case isn't really a tricky one: You had an armed man essentially pretending to be a police officer (at least usurping the role to some extent), not following police instructions to not follow, and who outweighed the other person by 100 lbs. How the cops could even see reasonable doubt there is a bit beyond me considering that he was following Trayvon and in so doing likely made Trayvon feel as though his own life was in danger - which ultimately it was.

Where I live we don't have a Florida-style "stand your ground" law, so any public shooting with those circumstances would have left you defending yourself to a judge/jury. Even though our laws are different the fact remains the same - and even Zimmerman's attorney has said that "stand your ground" doesn't apply - you can't follow people around and then expect to enjoy some immunity from them defending themselves, which I suspect is what happened.

It's my understanding that a DA (whether ADA or the DA himself) was present for the "investigation." If that DA were the one who said to release Zimmerman then I guess the outrage should rightly lie with him. Again, you can't chase someone around and expect that some sort of confrontation isn't likely to occur. That you arm yourself for that confrontation shows at the very least poor discretion, at worst a premeditated plan. But in either case he caused that confrontation to occur, and as such he needs to be judged for it.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

18. The original DA and now the new one are going the Grand Jury route

No explanation given.

[TeamsterDem]

19. uh huh, and what does that mean?

That's a statement made seemingly without regard for my argument. My argument is that he should have been charged THAT night, not waiting for a grand jury to impanel. And also, a toxicology was evidently done on Martin but not Zimmerman, bringing into question just how thorough the ballistics and other forensic evidence was handled. The problem is that the police made the assumption in many different ways that this was a justifiable shooting, and they dismissed much of the evidence-collection procedures because of that. How any grand jury is going to adequately investigate this is in doubt given that the forensic evidence they forewent is now long gone.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. It means that two different state attorneys are/were unwilling to order Zimmerman's arrest

even though the cops thought they should. They have no obligation to tell us why or justify that decision. However it looks like the SA, not the police are why Zimmerman is free today.

You continue to throw out assertions about what was or was not done. They are at best supposition. Without the rest of the supporting documents, we don't have a clue about most of the details. Not supporting Sanford PD, but suggesting that lets wait until we have better data before asking for heads on a stick.

[TeamsterDem]

21. I want no one's head on a stick

What I want is that people are arrested and charged for crimes that they commit. They should get a fair trial, but if you commit a crime you shouldn't have law enforcement's help in avoiding a trial. That's exactly what happened here, and the police chief even went so far as to defend Zimmerman to the media. That's not law enforcement, it's advocacy.

It's not an assertion to say that toxicology was done on Martin but not Zimmerman. All accounts hold that the police were not conducting ballistic path and pattern testing at the scene. And their convenient leaking of one report holding that Zimmerman was bloodied after another report which said no such thing is at best questionable. The case was bungled at two levels, police and the DA, which is why people are so upset and call it a miscarriage of justice.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

23. "All Accounts" at this point appear to be conjecture at best

There is a massive amount of data not public at this point. Until it all comes out, much of what some treat as facts are just media conjecture and self feeding hype.

There was no "leak", the report of the first two officers, patrol cops from the look of it, was published on the city website. There is no 1st and second report, it is how they were scanned for the PDF file. From that document (if true) we learn that:

The first officer on the scene disarmed and detained Zimmerman and noted his injuries. He took Zimmerman's weapon and entered it into evidence. The other officer focused on Martin and with a third officer, started CPR and continued it until EMS arrived. Scene had at least 6 cops at one point and Zimmerman was taken to the police station for questioning.

Martin's body was moved to do CPR. Any angles at that point were not measurable. Would you rather they did not try to resuscitate him?

The reality is that without the EMS/FD report we have no real data as to Zimmerman's injuries. The first cop noted that they treated him so there has to be a report. Then there are the rest of the officers reports, the coroners report, interview videos/transcripts, the list goes on.

I have strongly believed and still do that at least a manslaughter charge should have been made. Today we find out that the PD agreed. I have to wonder what else we will find out as things become public

And yes, some of your words are calling for heads on a stick...

[TeamsterDem]

28. Calling for a criminal to be charged in court is not seeking a head on a stick

It's called seeking justice. I don't want Zimmerman to treated unfairly; I want him to have a trial, a fair one. And I wouldn't want his CCW yanked until and unless he's convicted of a crime. How you arrive at any of that wanting a head on a stick is absurd.

The compendium of facts in this case holds many curiosities, but none as damning as the fact that a civilian armed himself, pursued an individual in clear disregard of police instructions, and at some point - according to Zimmerman himself - voluntarily left his vehicle to pursue a citizen, and at some point shot an unarmed person. How that - the undisputed facts of the case - don't bring a criminal charge is simply inexplicable and wrong. Even assuming Zimmerman was an actual neighborhood watch block captain - something under a decent amount of doubt in terms of the watch's recognition as such - that didn't give him the authority to carry a weapon (on that "duty&quot or to pursue and confront another civilian. As he started the confrontation with his pursuit, he should need to defend that action in court; the presumption of justifiability doesn't even seem in-keeping with "stand your ground" considering that he caused the confrontation to happen, not Trayvon.

I'm not sure the "PD agreed" with making a charge, as the police chief made several statements in support of not charging him. The lead investigator seems to have wanted to charge him, but I'm not convinced he constitutes the entirety of the PD's thinking.

With respect to forensics, the mere fact that they didn't perform a toxicology assessment of Zimmerman at least suggests ineptitude - certainly at least in terms of ever knowing if Zimmerman was perfectly sober that night.

They did not arrest him, they interviewed him: An interview which, according to the police report, includes Zimmerman's inherent admission of pursuing Trayvon in his truck and on foot, doing so armed. It's for reasons such as that why they voted no-confidence in the police because they rather clearly bungled the case.

I don't know what the law is where you live, but where I live if you pursue an individual without being a commissioned law enforcement officer, you then don't get to claim self-defense because, of course, your mere pursuit of them appears menacing, thus giving them a very legitimate self-defense motive of their own. If that occurred here you'd be a defendant in court for at least some criminal charge, whether it was manslaughter or homicide would of course depend on the facts the police gathered. But your pursuit would be its own menace, not to mention that you didn't follow police instructions and as a "neighborhood watchman" had no legal authority to pursue anyone.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

31. No but slagging others is

At this point I am giving the Sanford PD a little more credit since the lead investigator asked for Zimmerman's arrest and it from what we have seen, most of the early "facts" and claims about the PD were actually false. It is the SA who has chosen not to have him arrested at this point.

We have no idea what test were or were not performed. What we have is conjecture, which you are claiming as truth. The official reports are all being sat on by the State Attorney.

Not sure which police report you are citing. The only one I know of has no interview details. Do you have a citation?

He was detained for questioning, and in the eyes of the court, that is tantamount to arrest. He was in restraints and not free to go. Presumptively he was also Mirandized.

While I too am incredulous that he has not yet been arrested, many of the facts you claim and assumptions you make are unfounded. The SA is sitting on all the data and is choosing to go the grand jury route, a way that keeps most things out of the public eye.

[TeamsterDem]

32. Speaking of conjecture, being questioned is most certainly NOT the same as being arrested

in any jurisdiction. Being detained or interviewed is just that, otherwise they'd be called something else. In fact, the only way an interview/detainment for questioning is ever viewed as anything similar to an arrest is on a job application for police officer or with the FBI. Courts, however, do not view being detained for questioning as having been arrested, as the latter requires more of a burden to demonstrate guilt than does the former.

A good example of that happened just the other day in my neighborhood. Unbeknownst to most of us one neighbor has a monkey as a pet, and the monkey managed to escape from his containment and go sailing through the neighborhood trees which, at night, caused several neighbors to call the police complaining of a prowler. When they arrived they noticed one neighbor meandering down the sidewalk and they stopped, detained him, cuffed him, and questioned him. But when they discovered that he lived there, and in fact the reason he was meandering was because he'd tripped, fallen, and hit his head on an item in his own garage (after which he became disoriented) - that and nearly at that same time another officer spotted the monkey tarzaning his way through the trees. So the neighbor was uncuffed and received medical treatment. I ask you: Was he arrested? I'd suggest to you that he was detained, and that detainment and arrest are two very different animals.

During questioning one has the right to end the interview. During an arrest one does not have the right to terminate it. See the difference?

This is the report of what Zimmerman told police: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

You can give the Sanford PD all the credit you like. But understand that yours is not a widely-shared opinion, nor does it seem to go along with what's already been admitted by the shooter himself with respect to what creates a self-defense scenario. Since Zimmerman's own attorney says "stand your ground" doesn't apply, one must ask just what a police department or DA could possibly see in a situation like this one which in any way absolves Zimmerman. Nothing absolves him, frankly, under any law I've ever seen. He armed himself, usurped the role of police officer, and pursued a civilian both in a vehicle and on foot, all actions which would certainly tend to show aggressiveness and a reasonable fear of maliciousness on the part of Martin. I don't know anyone who doesn't become fearful and defensive when they're being pursued by anyone other than a uniformed police officer, so it was Martin, not Zimmerman, who had a reasonable right to self-defense. Zimmerman caused the entire situation to occur, and shot an unarmed kid in the process. Even if Trayvon had assaulted him, Zimmerman had pursued Trayvon for some time that night, so a reasonable person would have indeed inferred a threat - not to mention that Zimmerman outweighed him by over 100 lbs.

Those are not assertions, they're the facts of the case. No one disputes any part of what I just said - except the part where I use the term "if," as in "even if Trayvon had assaulted him" to wit is the only disputed part of the story. The rest is all a matter of witness statements and that of Zimmerman himself.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

33. Depends on the perspective

You are not free to go and you have been Mirandized. You are also cuffed etc. While not formal arrest as in reported/put int the system, its pretty damn close. Usual unctions also apply.

During questioning one has the right to end the interview. During an arrest one does not have the right to terminate it. See the difference?

Actually even if you are arrested you can end interviews by declining to speak to the investigators any further or asking that your lawyer be present.

This is the report of what Zimmerman told police: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

A tertiary description with self serving interests at all levels.

You can give the Sanford PD all the credit you like. But understand that yours is not a widely-shared opinion,

It has come grudgingly to be sure, but now its clear no one not part of the investigation really knows what was said or done and most of the so called facts are conjecture. an example if the oft repeated claim that no forensic tests were done. At this point I won't join the offhand slagging of them...too much is just not known.

Those are not assertions, they're the facts of the case. No one disputes any part of what I just said - except the part where I use the term "if," as in "even if Trayvon had assaulted him" to wit is the only disputed part of the story. The rest is all a matter of witness statements and that of Zimmerman himself.

Actually much of it was what other have said was said. Contradictions are rife within the media. I would not treat it any better than this http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=482787

At this point to use anything other than primary sources is suspect...

[TeamsterDem]

34. Guy, the link between questioning and arrests doesn't exist no matter how hard you strain

An arrest is where handcuffs are used, you're told you're under arrest for whatever crime, and you're transported to some sort of facility. A detainment for questioning can happen in a multitude of ways (sometimes cuffs, sometimes not), none of them having you told "you're under arrest" - because you're not. And a simply interview (a voluntary one) involves no handcuffs, and is a process which you're allowed to terminate simply by saying you want to end the interview. Trying to stop either of the others just won't be successful for they might go and get you an attorney which STALLS the process, but it doesn't STOP it.

By the accounts here Zimmerman was interviewed. Whether he was detained during that interview isn't exactly known, but we do know he wasn't placed under arrest for it. And now we know that he pursued Trayvon in a vehicle and on foot, just as a real cop should do if reasonable cause exists.

While I admire your desire to just justice meted out, I'm not sure you yourself know just how to approach this case which has now left you attempting to clean up your definition of arrests vs questioning, and beyond that a few strange jobs with very little substantive argument in there. I think you've run out of arguments and are now just trying to pick others' apart, hoping you'll find something of use in there. So I guess I'll bid you farewell seeing as it's not discussion but disagreement you're seeking, and I'm rather disinterested in locating on of those.

[Blue_Roses]

22. I think the original DA

recused himself and the current special prosecutor--Angela Corey--has said they just started this investigation Thursday, so she is asking everyone to be patient while they go over everything that was missed, as well as the current evidence. I will try to find the link.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

24. Posted here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=480674

Its been 5 days...she would have charged him by now if she was going to.

[Blue_Roses]

25. I disagree

Are you aware of the daunting task she has before her? They are doing a scene reenactment, there are witnesses that were not given the time of day that they have to go through, but I suspect most of all, she wants to get it right. God knows somebody needs to.

She probably will wait till the grand jury hearing, because it gives her more time to sort through this mess. I have no doubt he will be charged, but with what is the question.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

26. Then we will have to agree to disagree

There has been adequate time to review what was done before and add to it if needed. The SA could also be releasing the police reports and some of the other documents. Going to the grand jury is just another way of keeping data away from public view.

[Blue_Roses]

30. That may be true, but as high-profile as this

case has become, I suspect she wants to make sure the charge is one she can get a conviction with, not to mention the violatile nature of this case.

[grasswire]

29. It is not up to the prosecutor to find the truth.

It is up to the JURY to find the truth, examine the evidence, and judge the witnesses. So said many lawyers on TV today.

The body is enough probable cause to arrest.

[just1voice]

35. Not enough focus on any real "law" enforcement anywhere

War criminals walk freely among us, bank criminals continue on their rampages, propaganda abounds, protesters and whistle-blowers are wrongly arrested.

Laws are for sale and most have already been sold. Just who would hold the police accountable anyway? A totally serious question.

[gvstn]

37. I absolutely agree

The media is screaming, "George Zimmerman!" when it should be screaming "Institutionalized Racism in Sanford!".

Their focus should not be on vilifying George Zimmerman but on the police conduct in this case. And the murkiness of the law itself. They should be getting legislators to explain the law and how it applies to different scenarios. Get it down on the record. Get the cops down on the record about their interpretation of the law.

Nail down witness accounts and their interactions with the police. Get it on the record. The point being to show discrepancies between the official version and what really happened that night.

The big story is how the violent death of a teenage boy was handled. That no charges were brought and little investigation done. And no one noticed for three weeks.

We know Zimmerman will eventually be charged so stop hounding him and inciting some type of vigilante mob mentality. Zimmerman will have to tell his side of the story in court. The real questions about how the police conducted themselves and why they didn't take this death seriously are the important ones. Two days without trying to identify the victim is a disgrace! The media should do some real work and actually get the story from officials as to why they dropped the ball. Then things might actually change. If the media's end-game is Zimmerman's arrest then nothing changes. And from what I hear and the way the sound bytes are edited that is their "safe" end-game. Cry for Zimmerman's arrest and then drop the story into the memory hole.