The number of (nearly all professional) jobs given to immigrants via H1b visas in 2012 was 821,000

[Sarah Ibarruri]

I don't know what it was in 2013, but it's been growing steadily. The actual limit is supposed to be 65,000, but obviously the law is not being adhered to.

Most of those jobs went to Chinese and Indians who requested H1b visas.

To request an H1b visa, the immigrant must first show he/she has been offered a job here by the American company that offered the job.

In my view, that's 821,000 jobs which aren't being made public to American citizens.

That, from a seminar on immigration law I went to today.

[JazzFanInTX]

1. H1B is corporate welfare

This is a very sensitive issue, and one which is close to my heart, being an engineer myself. The phony "engineering shortage" has been an industry meme since before I became an engineer in the 1970s. The H1B system restricts the participant to work only for the company that hires them. This creates an alternate economic system for which no wage competition exists. The H1B participant gets hired at a much lower salary than U.S. market rate, then is prevented from obtaining employment at the market rate for their skills. The only beneficiaries of this are the corporations that lobby for the H1B system to begin with.

Conservative beneficiaries of this corporate welfare system have played the associated political game brilliantly. They are able to turn liberals against one another with the argument that "if you're against H1B, you're a xenophobic racist" or similar argument. But it really is a beautiful illustration of Robert Reich's argument regarding the paradox of free markets. One must have regulation for markets to be free. Otherwise, market participants will attempt to enact legislation which restricts the free market to favor their special interests. H1B is a classic example of this.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

4. Yup. I first found out about H1b visas when I lived in Boca Raton and found out by accident

that IBM was hiring programmers from India rather than the U.S. I was shocked. I mean, I knew programmers looking for work.

I actually called the employment office and asked them if it was true. They said they'd never heard of such a thing. Liars. Meanwhile I had proof it was going on.

It's shocking. Corporations don't give a damn about working people, or about the country they're in. It's just the bottom line. And yes, H1b visas are corporate welfare.

While the right wingers are whining about Mexicans who come into the U.S. to pick fruit then go home to Mexico, we have a continuous influx of H1b visa immigrants taking away professional jobs from Americans. It's monstrous.

[JazzFanInTX]

7. Re: Yup. I first found out about H1b visas when I lived in Boca Raton and found out by accident

From my POV, if H1B rules were modified so that participants were completely free to obtain other employment at market rates, I'd have no objection to it. But corporations would not go along with such ideas, even though they are consistent with the very free market principles they claim to embrace.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

9. While we are missing jobs here, 0 H1b visas should be issued nt

[JazzFanInTX]

24. I see where you're coming from, but disagree.

If rules disallowing H1B participants from e.g. finding new jobs at market rates were removed, then there would be little economic incentive for companies to hire them to begin with. I assume the companies are footing the bill for transportation expenses and so forth. I think the phony "engineering shortage" and "software developer shortage" would disappear rather quickly. Then only top-notch applicants would be viable, which is as it should be.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

26. I'm sorry I didn't understand. Paraphrase? nt

[Live and Learn]

30. I think most liberals see through the phony shortages. nt

[daybranch]

45. As a former employer trying to use the H-1b visa program

to bring a Thai Chef into the USA to cook at a Thai restaurant, I am very aware of the rules and inequities of this program. I first had to demonstrate there were no Thai chefs available. Then they made me prove that a cook of Thai food was not available. Then I simply asked if there was anyone available besides my limited workforce of chefs who could cook the traditional Thai menu I used in my restaurant. Furthermore I had to myself locate someone in Thailand who would do the job, furnish references as to ability etc. All in English.
To end the story although I had no intention of paying union scale or prevailing wage, thet stalled and finally I gave up. This hurt my family and our business.
The H-1b program is run for Bill Gates and the big corporations. The regulations really only apply to us little guys.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

89. Thank you for explaining that. I agree that the corporations are the ones abusing this

I can see a Thai chef as being completely unique. The same can't be said for engineers and programmers, which appear to two of the most abused requests for H1b visas right now. Corporations need to be scrutinized with regard to this.

[pa28]

46. Well said.

It's indeed distressing when the argument you laid out is met with charges of xenophobia and bigotry.

[Anansi1171]

65. True!-nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

73. Not really. It's an argument of RICH vs. POOR. The ones applying for EXPENSIVE H1b visas are rich

Americans out of a job and not finding any, are poor.

Who applies for H1b visas happens to not be a citizen, since that IS one of the requirements for applying to an H1b visa.

I strongly urge that you look up what racism is. You might be a tad confused. If you need any help in looking this up (some people seem to have trouble googling things they are not familiar with lol), I'll be glad to comply.

[pa28]

75. You replied to the wrong post maybe?

Or misunderstood my point perhaps? Suggestions of bigotry are often used against those who oppose the H1b program due to employer abuse. If you don't believe that take a close look downthread.

[snot]

62. +1!!!

[freshwest]

66. Very well explained. An alternate economy not free to all. n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

2. Agree. But I find it vexing that if you extend that concern to blue collar professions, it's racism.

Unregulated immigration depresses wages. TPTB know it, and that's why they're doing it.

[Gravitycollapse]

3. That's largely because much of the sentiment against it is a mix of nationalism and racism.

800,000 jobs is a drop in the bucket compared to the total number of employed Americans. And people who are overly frustrated by it probably have some underlying issue with immigrants and not just with the fact that they want a job here.

[lumberjack_jeff]

12. 800,000 H1B's are not a drop in the bucket of technology and engineering jobs

There are only 620,000 software application developers in the US total.

Nor are 11.7 million illegal workers a drop in the bucket of the blue collar workforce, it's roughly 8%.

Illegal workers are the difference between an employment-to-population ratio of 58.9% and one of 65%.

[Gravitycollapse]

35. First off, they're called undocumented immigrants. Secondly, they're here to stay...

So kvetching about them taking jobs is a pointless endeavor. They are here and they won't be leaving so pushing them out of work is only going to create a larger population of unemployed and unemployable.

If we give them a path to citizenship, which is the right thing to do, they became legally and ethically no different from any other employable person in the US.

Now, legal immigration is a different issue because, as I've said to someone else, they aren't already here. But the number of jobs which require a bachelors degree or higher, a chief requirement of the H1B visa, is much, much larger than 620,000 jobs. 50 million employed have a bachelors degree or higher and I suspect a large chunk of them work at a job which requires that degree.

[Lasher]

101. Illegal immigrants are the elephant in the room.

Their impact on US wages is as hard to ignore as the metaphorical elephant.

[shanemcg]

68. Funny, innit?

The only 2 things the Law of Supply and Demand doesn't apply to it seems; oil/gas prices and immigration.

Gee, I wonder why wages are super glued to the bottom for decades now? It surely couldn't be 10's of millions of poorly educated, low skilled people flooding into the country every year to work for wages no American could afford to live on?

Could it be? No, of course not. You're just a racist.

[pnwmom]

13. This affects everyone in the industry. Being able to hire people

on those visas is helping to keep salaries down for everyone -- besides taking away jobs from US computer scientists and engineers. This has nothing to do with some other "underlying issue with immigrants."

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

39. When I hear foaming at the mouth diatribes about the TN, E3 or L2 visa I will believe that.

[pnwmom]

43. Who here is foaming at the mouth? n/t

[Recursion]

110. Or for that matter the H-2A

INS basically lets any farmer who wants hire any foreigner he wants, as long as the two will just admit to doing it and get the stamp. Usage is something like 2%.

[Hoyt]

47. I don't know what the appropriate number is, but I think you are right about the underlying issue.

I find that rather disgusting.

[Gravitycollapse]

49. We have many in here throwing around right-wing nativist talking points...

For instance, suggesting that we only allow immigrants to pick fruit and cotton is a pretty terrible thing to say.

[Hoyt]

51. I'm a bit shocked by some of the comments.

[brentspeak]

84. Could you change your avatar, please?

Woody Guthrie would not have appreciated his picture to accompany RW corporatist propaganda.

[Hoyt]

87. Woody wouldn't be posting bigoted crud against immigrants.

[brentspeak]

88. What "bigoted crud" against immigrants?

Thanks in advance

[Lizzie Poppet]

121. There's nothing "bigoted" about objecting to corporate bullshit.

Sure, there are certainly some yahoos whose objection to this ridiculous proliferation of H1b workers is based on racism...but they're a distinct minority. The objection is that allowing such a huge number is unquestionably contributing to unemployment in the tech sector...all for the benefit of corporate profit margins and further shifting of capital to the 0.01%. Woody would spit in your face for supporting that shit.

[Hoyt]

123. No, Woody would call out the obvious bigotry against immigrants .

You ever listen to his songs?

There are laws against paying folks less than the prevailing wage, those laws need to be enforced rather than pushing hatred against immigrants. There are also limits on the number of H1B immigrants, and the limit is relatively small. Maybe the limits need to be reduced, but so does the hatred toward immigrants.

Woody wouldn't back that hatred.

[Lizzie Poppet]

126. If you want to think that, hunky-dory.

Oh, and no one's "hating immigrants" here. They're hating the corporate exploiters. Duh. Fucking duh.

As Sarah's OP pointed out, if the corporations were actually sticking to the legal H1b limit (65,000) instead of 821,000, this would be a non-issue.

[Hoyt]

127. 821,000 did not come in one year. You don't even understand how it works.

Each one here was approved by the government, it takes more than a corporation saying they need them.

Besides, America is not going to recover from the recession by roping itself off from the world as some seem to think.

[brentspeak]

83. Let us know when you actually locate anyone here

suggesting that we only allow immigrants to pick fruit and cotton.

In the meantime, take your US Chamber of Commerce talking points to the other site.

[dionysus]

129. once again, the popinjay speaks about which he knows nothing...

[Sarah Ibarruri]

6. And if you extend it to crop pickers, right wingers will be frothing at the mouth, angry that

Mexicans are taking away crop-picking jobs from Americans. I had one tell me that today after the seminar. I couldn't believe my ears. After listening to the entire talk, and being made aware of all the PROFESSIONAL jobs American citizens are being robbed of, she said this: "Well, there are just SOME Americans that don't want to do CERTAIN jobs." I asked her, "Are you discussing for example, toilet cleaning?" She said, "Yes, jobs like that." Right away I knew she was a Neo-Con.

Now you tell me, what does THAT have to do with good professional jobs being stolen? Just some really, really psychotic, sick sense of racism.

I think Repukes are obsessed with this notion that there are lazy people out there who SHOULD BE working picking fruit and cleaning toilets, and they would feel so much better if they could know those are the only jobs available to that group of people.

[lumberjack_jeff]

16. As blue collar pay goes up, they'd be surprised at how industrious their fellow citizens are. n/t

[Live and Learn]

33. +1 nt

[Yo_Mama]

74. Yeah, that's true.

It isn't racism to point out the obvious - constantly importing workers in numbers such as to raise the unemployment rates and lower wages is basically class warfare. It doesn't matter where you import them from - if it is done when there is high unemployment and constantly declining real wages for most, you are creating an economic problem.

Oddly enough, several people I know who always or almost always vote R are passionate about this issue, and describe it as "class warfare" or "corporate peonage" - rhetoric that is usually associated with the left. They would switch to voting D immediately if the Dems stopped unrestricted immigration. Plus they have immigrant ties themselves.

What's good for GE is not always good for the country. But right now, what's good for the large corporates, financial and other, is the policy being followed in the US.

[Gravitycollapse]

5. 821K jobs out of 143 million is about 1/2 of 1% of the total employed. A drop in the bucket.

Sorry, but the argument here appears to be irrationally nationalist.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

8. I'm looking through your posts and a profile of your ideology is coming through loud and clear. nt

[Gravitycollapse]

10. Cool. Do you have a response for the fact that 821K jobs is half a percent of the employed?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

11. Actually, I have a really good idea of what you're doing on DU nt

[Skittles]

18. a lot of us do

[Sarah Ibarruri]

20. He's one of the ones from the dark side, huh? lol There are a few others nt

[ProgressiveJarhead]

40. You Should See

what they do over at Mother Jones. They seem to be great at it.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

54. You're kidding me. That place is infested with right wingnuts too? nt

[Skittles]

50. my guess

profits from job pimping

"just a miniscule number" meme is used because "Americans won't do these jobs!" does not wash

[Sarah Ibarruri]

53. I think you're right.

They always manage to "out" themselves though. Have you noticed?

[pnwmom]

17. The pertinent statistic is what fraction it is of COMPARABLE jobs,

which people have already cited to you. 821K jobs in a single year is significant fraction of total high tech jobs.

[Gravitycollapse]

29. H1B visas are not just for high tech jobs. It is for jobs which require a BS or higher.

http://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/h-1b-specialty-occupation/understanding-h-1b-requirements

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm

About 50 million persons in the labor force have a bachelors degree or higher and I would guess a substantial portion of those individuals work in a field which requires such a degree.

[pnwmom]

34. No, it is much more specialized than that. It requires a minimum of a BS

in a specialized field. (And do you even understand that a BS degree is not the same as a BA?)

http://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/h-1b-specialty-occupations-and-fashion-models/h-1b-fiscal-year-fy-2015-cap-season

U.S. businesses use the H-1B visa program to employ foreign workers in specialty occupations that require theoretical or practical application of a body of highly specialized knowledge, including, but not limited to: scientists, engineers, or computer programmers. For more information about the H-1B program, visit our H-1B Specialty Occupations Web page.

[Samantha]

28. I have a response

Those jobs should only be filled by those given these visas if they cannot be filled by American citizens. That is not the case.

In this economy, there is no question these corporations should be complying with that requirement, but as with a number of other matters, they thumb their corporate noses and do whatever benefits their bottom line. In that process, they exploit those they entice to come here. There have been lawsuits filed over this very issue (by those who were exploited).

Corporations engaging in this type of conduct should be held accountable.

Sam

[sabrina 1]

59. AND those being hired from overseas should be paid the same wages the jobs are worth here.

If they are not being paid what those jobs are worth, then it is clear what is going on. Just a legal way of profiting from labor, as others do with undocumented immigrants.

[JDPriestly]

52. It is not such a small percentage of those who want to be employed in technology.

H1B visas should not exist.

They are a means for people from other countries to come here, learn the technology of American countries, take the information back home and use it.

If we have full employment for people with technical skills then maybe bringing in real immigrants who can do the job is fine.

But the H1B visas create an underclass of immigrants who know they cannot become citizens and have no rights. This should not exist in a country that believes that all men are created equal and should have equal rights. Everyone who comes in the country and has the right to work here should know that they can become eligible for citizenship.

It is very strange that our government claims to worry so much about terrorism and yet we invite people in who owe and never will owe loyalty to our country. Very strange.

[sabrina 1]

55. And what % is it of the UNEMPLOYED? And are those jobs advertised here first? And are these

people being paid the standard wage HERE in the US where they will have to live, as a US citizen would be paid?

If not THEY ARE BEING USED and I can't imagine anyone supporting bringing people over here, paying them far less than the job is worth and expecting them to live by the standards here.

[shanemcg]

100. I can't imagine that either sabrina

But then again I couldn't imagine the American People would be ok with good produced in sweat shops and factories where workers live in stacked cages and commit suicide to get out of, but sadly my fellow Americans really don't have a problem with it.

So this is no big shock.

[starroute]

14. And what percent is it of professional jobs?

I'm not experienced in employment statistics -- but I did find a Bureau of Labor Statistics page for Professional, Scientific, and Technical Services at http://www.bls.gov/iag/tgs/iag54.htm

If I'm reading it right, it shows current total employment of 8.2 million in that sector. Which would mean that 821,000 jobs is 10% of the total -- hardly a drop in the bucket.

[pnwmom]

15. It is not a drop in the bucket of highly skilled tech jobs. nt

[Gravitycollapse]

27. H1B visas are for fields which require a degree not just high skill tech jobs.

And that is substantially more than the 8 million jobs value being quoted in various places in this thread.

[KittyWampus]

19. these jobs are going to foreigners who are replacing American workers. It's not as if they

are taking new jobs that have just been created.

American workers have to train their foreign replacements.

Then we can tally up those who are taking construction jobs.

Something like 15-17% of construction jobs are illegal immigrants.

The percentage of the workforce that= undocumented workers is about 5%. And since we're talking millions, that's a lot of American citizens who don't get the jobs.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

22. I personally know no one whose talent is laying brick. I do personally know programmers though

And it burns me up that programming and other jobs such as engineering and the like are being handed out to H1b immigrants from China and India.

[KittyWampus]

69. I have quite a few nail bangers & landscapers as friends who have seen huge amounts of competition

from (first) Columbians and (now) Ecuadorians.

[dionysus]

130. i'm in IT myself, but quality masonry isn't cheap either... nt

[Gravitycollapse]

31. Let me put it this way. The undocumented immigrants are basically here to stay...

Sure, the size of the undocumented immigrant population fluctuates with the demands of the economy. But the body of persons isn't going to up and disappear if we somehow could totally remove them from the workforce. They would thus represent a massive number of unemployable individuals stuck in limbo. Which is, beyond being unethical, a really bad idea economically and criminally.

If we were to give them a path to citizenship, they would legally and ethically be no different from every other American. Then we could no longer target them as "stealing" our jobs because they'll be their jobs too.

Now, legal immigration is a little different as they aren't already here in the first place. But I happen to believe, and I realize not everyone will agree, that they deserve the jobs just as much as anyone else.

[aggiesal]

38. The National Society of Professional Enginerrs states that ...

there are approximately 2,000,000 practicing engineers in the US.
http://www.nspe.org/resources/media/resources/frequently-asked-questions-about-engineering


821,000 / 2,000,000 = 41%

That means that 41% of the practicing engineers in the US have H1B visas.
I think that's pretty significant..

[Gravitycollapse]

44. Except that 821,000 isn't just out of 2 million. It's out of much more.

H1B visas aren't just for engineering fields.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

57. That needs to stop. At Duke, nearly all the students studying engineering are Chinese from China nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. The irony is that 564,000 of them were educated for those jobs in the US.

http://travel.state.gov/content/dam/visas/Statistics/AnnualReports/FY2013AnnualReport/FY13AnnualReport-TableXVIA.pdf

Colleges love student visas because they all pay full nonresident tuition and live on campus.

... and then the CEO of Microsoft gets on the TV and complains that americans don't have the necessary skills. Of course not, you lying sack of shit! All the class openings in are given to people here on student visas.

This is yet another way the college industry is not working for the US worker.

btw... could you please provide a link to 821,000?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

23. Duke University (to give one example of many) is filled with Chinese who arrived directly from

China. I'm not talking about Chinese-American students.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

25. Yes, hold on...

Congressional yearly numerical cap[edit]
The current law limits to 65,000 the number of foreign nationals who may be issued a visa or otherwise provided H-1B status each fiscal year (FY). Laws exempt up to 20,000 foreign nationals holding a master’s or higher degree from U.S. universities from the cap on H-1B visas. In addition, excluded from the ceiling are all H-1B non-immigrants who work at (but not necessarily for) universities, non-profit research facilities associated with universities or government research facilities.[5] This means that contractors working at, but not directly employed by the institutions may be exempt from the cap. Free Trade Agreements carve out 1,400 H-1B1 visas for Chilean nationals and 5,400 H-1B1 visas for Singapore nationals. However, if these reserved visas are not used, then they are made available in the next fiscal year to applicants from other countries. Due to these unlimited exemptions and roll-overs, the number of H-1B visas issued each year is significantly more than the 65,000 cap, with 499,218 having been issued in FY2010, 671,837 in FY2011, and 820,431 in FY2012.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa

Follow reference 6 and the arrow to the Dept of Labor link.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

32. Here's another thing, those foreign nationals studying here and then asking for H1bs...

are also reasons why education is becoming so expensive at the college level. These foreign nationals (as was mentioned before) pay out of state/out of country tuition (because they can - they are generally well-to-do foreign nationals), and hike up the price of colleges and universities. Colleges and universities give these people carte blanche and open their doors to study here, and that subsequently makes it easy for them to obtain the H1bs, which apparently are being handed out like chocolate chip cookies.

What's the solution?

[Skip Intro]

36. Jobs should go to citizens of the USA before immigrants.

Legal or otherwise.

Citizens of this country, American workers, should not have to go without a job because someone from another country has taken it.

Assuming equal qualifications.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

37. Particularly good jobs. I'm not so sure about picking cotton, picking fruit, etc.

Those are jobs I'm not interested in, and I doubt many people would be desperately knocking on doors for those.

[Skip Intro]

42. No, I don't agree we can or should parse jobs like that.

I don't believe there are jobs Americans won't do.

I think that is bs.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

56. What? I think there are. I think as an advanced nation, we should have gone beyond that nt

[Skip Intro]

58. Wow. Disagree. Plenty of hard workers in this country, unfraid to sweat and get dirty.

Plenty of them out of work.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

72. Why are you changing the topic? Just curious. The topic is loss of professional jobs via H1bs. nt

[Skip Intro]

79. Was responding to your "picking cotton, picking fruit" statement.

And off on that tangent we went.

Particularly good jobs. I'm not so sure about picking cotton, picking fruit, etc.

Those are jobs I'm not interested in, and I doubt many people would be desperately knocking on doors for those.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

82. I was returning it back to the OP - which deals with high paying, professional jobs being taken from

the hands of American citizens via the H1b visa method.

[woolldog]

107. Not everyone can be an engineer, Sarah

There's still a place for low skilled jobs, for Americans. Illegal immigration has had disastrous consequences for this country as a whole.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

108. No, but American citizens who are engineers are currently out of work. We're being ripped off

by corporations (AS USUAL) and colleges.

[JoeyT]

64. The problem with that is if

we force everyone into the high tech market because we think we should be above blue collar work, wages in the high tech market will utterly collapse. One of the reasons tech jobs (and all jobs that require either advanced degrees or huge amounts of training or skill) traditionally pay well is because of a small labor pool. Take all your brick layers or welders and make them computer programmers and you're going to see people writing code for minimum wage in pretty short order.

There's also that blue collar work doesn't necessarily pay less than white collar. I've actually gotten a few of my friends on jobs because they just weren't making enough in their fields to keep up with their student loan debt and living expenses. That's the construction jobs we should be beyond, by the way. Americans will do the jobs if they pay enough to live on.

[HipChick]

41. Companies are getting tax breaks, and its still cheaper than hiring American workers

[Sarah Ibarruri]

103. Yes, and businesses and universities are complicit in giving away good jobs to H1b immigrants:

I found these interesting:

http://www.h1base.com/content/currentsubscribers

http://iss.washington.edu/employment/opt-to-h1b (University of Washington)

http://www.visaservices.duke.edu/H1b.html (Duke University)

http://redbus2us.com/can-h1b-holder-study-h1b-visa-holder-study-mba-ms-full-time-or-part-time/

and millions more.

[octoberlib]

48. Hillary's a big proponent of H-1B's. I wonder if she'll tone down this rhetoric if she runs.

Hillary Clinton reaffirms support for more H-1B visas

[polichick]

96. Corporate welfare is cool when Dems do it - right?

[snot]

63. Everyone should be able to move to wherever they f*cking they want,

and they/we should be able to compete freely for employment wherever they/we are.

If they/we move somewhere else other than where they/we were born, again, they/we should be able to complete freely for employment wherever they/we are; but there should be some kind of waiting period before they/we are eligible for other benefits in the new location.

We're not f*cking serfs, tied to the land owned by our governmental or corporate masters; or at least, we shouldn't be. (Right now, as far as I can see, nationalism and national boundaries primarily benefit the 1%.)

We need a f*cking free market of governments. If one government sucks because it's corrupt or tyrannical, people who have the guts to pick up and make a life elsewhere should be free to do that.

I am NOT afraid of those people; those people are brave and productive and will help whatever economy they're allowed to participate in (I believe in trickle UP).

It's the f*cking leeches I'm afraid of – banksters et al. THOSE people have sucked TRILLIONS out of the world economy since 2008. (And guess who's paying?)

[Sarah Ibarruri]

71. Incorrect. This country belongs to Americans, and if corporations can't offer jobs to them, they

should get the FUCK out and be given no business and no opportunity of providing services and goods here.

Corporations are so fucking evil it makes me vomit. They owe zero allegiance to the country or its people.

But you apparently adore corporations. That's precisely what you're saying by claiming it's only right that everyone on the planet should be able to compete for AMERICAN jobs is just fine and cool. THAT IS FUCKED UP.

Or did you mean to say something different, and that's how it came out?

[Hoyt]

102. Wow. You sure it's just corporations you despise?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

111. No. I also despise Republicans, Nazis, fascists, anyone anti-union, pedophiles, and people who

put money before people, such as corporations, who shit on American citizens in order to get chummy with China and India.

That doesn't cover everything, but it's a pretty wide net.

What about you? Do you care about good jobs being denied to American citizens, or you frankly don't care?

[U4ikLefty]

109. Hear, hear!!!

I (and many here) agree despite some d-bags implying that you are a racist.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

112. Thanks! Well, that's a reverse argument they're trying out on me to see if it works :)

It kinda goes like this:

If the people who are getting jobs are ethnic, it doesn't matter if the jobs are being stolen from the American citizens to give them away to foreign nationals, it's all "okay", and if you don't agree, YOU'RE A DAMNED RACIST!

Unfortunately, I'm #1 for keeping jobs among Americans, particularly the high-paying jobs, the jobs that give one more than just a hand-to-mouth life, the jobs that allow for more than just the bare necessities. WHY are we not protecting those jobs by denying all H1b visas outright until the corporations are forced to jump through hurdles and prove it's literally impossible to find a candidate in the U.S.?

[snot]

113. I think you misunderstood my post.

I wasn't talking about corporations, I was trying to defend the rights of individuals, everywhere.

If you want my opinion about corporations, my complaint about them is that their supposed democratic aspects (e.g. shareholder voting) are weak and ineffectual, so corps. are controlled by senior executives, who operate them primarily for their own profit and are shielded from personal liability for the consequences of their actions. Otherwise, it's just an organization, and humans need ways of organizing themselves in order to accomplish projects that require coordinated action. So no, I don't hate corporations per se, but I do hate the aspects above, which we've allowed to evolve since corps. were originally invented.

[sagat]

131. +1

[FormerOstrich]

67. H1B Population

Sarah,

Is the 821K the estimated population of H1B Visa workers in the US? I have never been able to find any reliable estimates for the population. Most of the discussion centers on the new issues and associated annual cap. The visas are valid for 3 to 6 years (or used to be I don't know if that has changed). Plus, there are other types of Visas such as the L1s which should be a part of the discussion/debate.

The system has been put in place where it is impossible to ascertain the true magnitude and implications. I am mostly familiar with the IT segment and my input is based on that industry.

Oftentimes, there are "technology" firms which handle the visas and employ the workers. The staffing firms typically offer some benefits and are the employer of record.

Aside from the resource providers there are very few full-time jobs. The "jobs" are contract positions without benefits. The actual duration of the positions vary but the are usually advertised as 3 or 6 months.

The companies pay a flat rate instead of a burdened salary. They negotiate favorable agreements with specific firms to reduce their recruiting costs. Hiring visa holders usually minimizes the attrition from voluntary terminations.

Overall, how the network of labor providers and the partnerships with the business stacks the deck against the "traditional" US worker. The wages continue to decline, full-time positions w/benefits are becoming obsolete. Workers that do have full-time positions know it is a buyers market and continue to see their wages/benefits/marketability decline.

Add age discrimination and off-shoring to the equation and you can see how bleak the US market really is. There is a lot of momentum in increasing what we have already done. H1B is considered to be bipartisan. Opportunity is a luxury not all can be afforded.

In case any believe me to be racist or bigoted: I do not begrudge the H1B visa holders themselves. Some of the most talented and intelligent people I have worked with have been here on H1B visas. They are hard-working. We are the same...pursuing the opportunities to earn a living.

Where I find fault is with a corrupt system which exploits resources and helps concentrate the wealth to a few.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

70. You and I agree that the system is corrupt, and part of its corruption is giving jobs to immigrants

Corporations do this because corporations have no allegiance to the citizens of the country they're in. Government becomes complicit because in this country no one can run for office without corporate money.

As for H1B visas and its workers, the stats are from the Dept of Labor.

And as for seeing them in person, I know H1b immigrants holding visas. Programmers, engineers, the good, nice-paying cushy jobs.

How do many get them? They get them directly from graduating from college. For example, Duke has chosen to give entrance to so many Chinese, that walking through campus it is clear that the balance is beyond skewed. There's a reason for this. Chinese from China that attend Duke are from the wealthy classes, and they are paying Duke some very high out of country tuition prices. Looking at photos of campus, the situation is clear. I happen to know a student that attends there, and he's cool with that because he's 17 and thinks not at all about jobs in this country, but I think about it a lot, and the millions of citizens out of work think about it a lot as well.

Jobs in the U.S. need to be offered to Americans citizens. Only after showing solid proof that no American citizens are eligible for the position in question, and after interviewing the names of American citizens provided by the corporation. (For example, Justin Bieber's been here on an H1b Specialized Visa, but there's only 1 job for 1 Justin Bieber).

Then, and only then, should H1bs be provided - after proving that nobody in the U.S. is eligible.

It angers the hell out of me the wrongs committed by corporations, and the unbelievably f'd up system in this country.

[gulliver]

76. Just give out green cards and end H-1Bs completely.

I realize it seems strange, but maybe we should just end the temporary visas by making them permanent. Permanent residents would be in a better bargaining position than H-1Bs now are, so it might be more difficult for corporations to depress wages stateside.

We are in an outsourcing world now, imo, and it might behoove us to do some brain draining. Those high wage earners should be here in the United States making U.S. wages, paying U.S. taxes, buying U.S. real estate and U.S. goods and services. As a bonus, they are good folks, by-and-large, and they vote heavily Democratic.

A "temporary" worker status is to the advantage of corporations and the wealthy it seems to me.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

80. You make a really good point! Make them all jump through the same hoops required by the green card

Returning to their own country first, applying for a green card, etc.

That will take the control out of corporate hands.

[Spider Jerusalem]

125. Honestly?

I'd rather see a world where highly educated people don't feel the need to come to work in the USA. And I don't really see vampire capitalism that sucks the lifeblood of developing countries in the form of human capital to support US industries as being a good or positive thing. Those people should be home in India or Nigeria or Malaysia helping to develop technology and infrastructure there.

[polichick]

77. How are the parties different on this?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

81. This is the usual corporate control. The kind the right wing SC just gave more power to nt

[polichick]

86. Meaning both parties are big on corporate welfare?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

90. I don't discuss Naderite politics. Sorry. nt

[polichick]

91. lol - you don't answer pertinent questions either...

btw corporate welfare in not somehow better when Dems do it.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

92. I think I've already explained this to you. I don't discuss Naderite politics. It's repulsive.

I also don't engage in Republican-like bashing of our president.

Please try to remember that for next time. Thanks.

[polichick]

95. Who mentioned Nader? I didn't vote for him, or mention him.

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. She won't answer, but I will

yes, both parties do it in the name of growing up the economy and other nice sounding names.

They have emphasis that are different, on how to get to the end goal, and when it comes to foreign affairs is preserving an empire.

The "I do not discuss naderite politics" is a cop out. I linked bellow to the White House White Paper on immigration, and why it matters. Sarah has yet to actually answer my post, not do I expect her to. Oh and it is NOT the Bush WH either.

Here, the link of the Obama White House statement on Immigration

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/docs/factsheet_-_immigrations_role_in_building_a_strong_economy_final_final_clean.pdf

At the moment making my way through the second report linked from it, the first Editor sent and already did.

Oh and this is from the Small Business Administration as well, which I assure the OP is not run by Nader either.

Immigrant Entrepreneurs and Small Business Owners, and their Access to Financial Capital

http://www.sba.gov/sites/default/files/rs396tot.pdf

Another one I need to go through before outlining a dang article for the non news paper I write for.

Oh and H1B is just a small part on migratory policy.

[polichick]

98. It's so weird. Upstream that poster wonders what can be done...

but refuses to look at who is doing it and why.

Thanks for all the links!

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. You are in academia

so you are used to this light reading on a Sunday afternoon. After going through a few of these, ready to synthesize this for my readers. But this wonderful Sunday afternoon reading is the kind of reading the OP should do. Because my opinion, she is coming from emotion, not the reality of where we are.

And that reality is not pretty. And yes, we do need, urgently, migratory reform. And no, we cannot keep people out, not when they produce the number of jobs they do. Immigrants have always been essential to the US.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. Here is a link you might want to read

http://www.renewoureconomy.org/sites/all/themes/pnae/openforbusiness.pdf

After you do, please try to discuss things in a more mature, chiefly NUANCED way.

Now back to reading.

Oh and a couple more, one from the WH itself, which I find ironic...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/docs/factsheet_-_immigrations_role_in_building_a_strong_economy_final_final_clean.pdf

http://www.fiscalpolicy.org/immigrant-small-business-owners-FPI-20120614.pdf

Of course there are the CBO reports, but hey IMMIGRANTS evil, garble, derp... things are always far more nuanced than that.

By the way, perhaps we should do as you wish and watch the economy crash. It will be entertaining.

[Hoyt]

93. Thanks for posting those links.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. You welcome, it is just fascinating policy level

reading.

[reformist2]

104. Do corporations still encourage young Americans to study math & science anymore?

If they still do, they've got some nerve!

[AngryOldDem]

105. From what I understand from someone in IT...

...college students are not choosing IT or computer science as majors anymore, so I assume related fields like math and science are also shrinking, unless education is the primary career goal.

Seriously...why would you want to get in this line of work?

The argument -- which has been around since the early '90s -- that there are no qualified U.S. workers for these jobs is complete and unmitigated bullshit, but it's going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy if the trend of fewer IT grads continues. But that's what corporations want, anyway.

That's all I'm going to say on this because this is one issue that as time goes on that I can't discuss civilly.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

106. From what I've seen at Duke University, it's a whole industry...

(and I'm not picking on Duke - ALL UNIVERSITIES ARE DOING THIS)...

Foreign national students with money buy their way into universities here, with no intention of returning to their countries. From the university, it's a cinch to an H1b visa, and in fact, the corporations and university help the students obtain these. Corporations pay for the visas, and universities (who get donated funds from the corporations) set up a department to help the student navigate the H1b.

Corporations are totally complicit in this and are the very reason for it since they are the ones offering the jobs to potential H1b visa immigrants rather than to American citizens.

The reason for this, is that this is the corporate way of making China and India happy, so they (corporations) can expand business there, and further their business. As I've mentioned, corporations have no allegiance to anything but money. People matter not at all, so if we expect them to give a shit about American citizens, we're expecting the impossible.

Amazing what goes on under our American radars. With the professional jobs that have already sucked out of this country, and they are now taking hundreds of thousands of professional jobs of what's left to our American citizens workforce, to give them away to foreign nationals.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

114. You know, Sarah, the Bill Gates led attack on public education is related..

Bill Gates is leading the way to dismantle public education and replace it with a for profit business plan, one in which he has much to gain financially. "Waiting for Superman" was his pro-charter school propaganda campaign. The entire movie was about Americans not being competitive with the ROW. But the subtext was: Gates is rationalizing why he won't pay American IT workers, engineers, and programmers what they are worth, and in so doing promulgating this phony engineering shortage by convincing America that our education system is broken and that he therefore has no choice but go overseas.

Great thread, thanks for posting it.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

115. It really angers the hell out of me that he's involved in dismantling public schools and defending

right wing ideology. I guess it shouldn't surprise me. He is the prototype of the 1%.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

116. Did you see what Robert Reich posted today on Facebook?

The number-one priority of America’s high-tech firms in the fight over immigration reform has been to increase the annual cap on the number of “skilled” foreign workers they can bring to the U.S. each year under the H-1B visa program. (This year’s cap of 65,000 was reached less than a week after applications for the program were accepted.) High-tech firms say they can’t find the skilled programmers, computer system designers, and software engineers they need here in America. "The government should just let the market work” argued one high-tech executive recently.

High-tech executives are the ones who don’t want to let the market work. If they really faced a shortage of high-tech workers in America, they’d pay higher wages. In fact, the wages of programmers, systems designers, software engineers and others have barely budged over the past decade, adjusted for inflation. High-tech firms want skilled foreign workers because they don’t want to pay more than they’re paying now. According to the latest government statistics, the median wage for new H-1B holders in computer-related occupations is only $50,000 – way below the median wage for those occupations in the U.S., and even below the starting salaries of new U.S. graduates in these fields. So I'd say "no" to increasing the number of H1-B visas. You agree?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

117. Maybe it's our fault. For a while we thought high tech corps were not corporations

We held them in some other type of esteem, gave them respect they didn't deserve, more respect than "mere" corporations. We were all wrong. High tech corporations are ONLY corporations, and nothing else.

[butterfly77]

118. K&R..

[Sarah Ibarruri]

119. Thank you! nt

[butterfly77]

120. I agree with everything you said..

I tried posting about this a few years ago and boy you should have seen the posts I received...

[Sarah Ibarruri]

122. I believe it! Right wingers use the "politically correct" theme to defend corporations stealing

the good jobs from American citizens.

These are the same right wingnuts that don't want fruit-picking foreigners in this country.

The same exact right wingers are at the front of the line, like johnny-on-the-spot, happy to be giving away all the good paying jobs to wealthy Chinese and wealthy Indians. Anything the corporations want is the popular right wing motto. And they will try any lies to make the wishes of corporations come true.

[Lizzie Poppet]

124. Exactly.

Corporations doing their usual screwing-over of American workers? A-okay. Someone uses a mildly insensitive (if 100% accurate) term? Break out the torches and pitchforks!

[butterfly77]

128. Correct..

media want report this distinction..