If Trayvon was beating Zimmerman when he was shot ...

[GOTV]

... wouldn't Zimmerman have a lot of Trayvon's blood on him?

At least one witness has said that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman beating him. If Zimmerman shot Trayvon then, then blood would splatter and poor onto Zimmerman wouldn't it? Did anyone mention Zimmerman having Trayvon's blood on him?

If Zimmerman got out from under Trayvon, or Trayvon got up, and then Zimmerman shot he might be blood free but in that case, why would he still need to fire? Certainly the unarmed Trayvon would not have tried anything further if Zimmerman showed his gun.

I'm not an expert in beatings or shootings but doesn't this make sense?

[abelenkpe]

1. no it doesn't make sense

and personally I think that "witness" is a lying sack of shite.

[Bluerthanblue]

2. if Trayvon knocked Zimmerman down with one punch, and was pounding his head against the sidewalk

as the media says Zimmerman claimed, I cannot believe he wasn't transported to a hospital for head injuries. Nothing makes sense in this stupid farce of an investigation.

[madaboutharry]

7. He didn't even have stitches. His story is crap.

I was also wondering about blood. The moron cops never collected evidence, I believe there is an underlying reason for that which hasn't come out yet.

[DocMac]

26. Also, if he had a broken nose

he would have two black eyes. I have never seen anyone that had a broken nose that didn't give them at least one black eye, including myself. Why didn't his friends take pictures of that to prove his nose was busted?

[Ganja Ninja]

29. And if Zimmerman was walking away how did Trayvon punch him in the nose?

How do you punch someone in the nose when you're behind him? His story is full of crap.

[DocMac]

34. I'm not buying it either. nt

[zbdent]

43. and why weren't these "witnesses" to GZ walking away (or being on the ground)

helping their friend, or trying to keep the situation from escalating? Where were their 911 calls?

[Aerows]

77. I've never seen anyone that got punched in the nose

broken or not, that didn't get at least one black eye, either. Zimmerman's story is horse patties.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

81. Have you seen immediate post event photos of Zimmerman?

I have also seen broken noses without black eyes. YMMV but I think only radiologist knows for sure.

[Aerows]

85. I've yet to see one without a vicious bleed, either

But I'm sure that there will suddenly be 100 examples of people that got a broken nose, never bled and never got black eyes, despite the contrary to everyone else that has ever had a broken nose, punched in the face, etc.

I'll say this much - if you got punched in the face and didn't have a nose bleed or a black eye afterwards, then it wasn't much of a punch and it sure as hell wasn't life threatening.

[Aerows]

98. Have YOU seen a punch

That was life-threatening, but didn't cause a bleed or a black eye?

I'll wait for examples of life-threatening punches like that.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

99. Yes, but not direct to the face

Temple shots are another story, as are occipital lobe strikes.

This is where the reasonable man standard start to creep in. Most people getting hit in the face outside of an match occurring in a dojo, ring or octagon, are going to believe they are at risk for great bodily injury, which requires no weapon.

If Martin had dropped Zimmerman and was then continuing to pound on him, some of the elements required for the use of deadly force may have been met.

The details being kept hidden by the State Attorney would support or disallow the self defense and they are saying *nothing* and going the Grand Jury route which allows things to be kept secret.

[Aerows]

104. You are discussing the dojo

Oh my.

As though.

If you are hit hard enough for it to be fatal, in the dojo or out of it, you got hit. Hard. It may or may not have broken bones, but it would have caused blood to flow.

If you are the sort of person that could get hit, have no blood to flow, and have no bones broken, I recommend you for the Vampire school of the martial arts, because frankly, people that have actually trained in them for years are going to laugh their ass off at you pretending like you know what a strike in the face designed to break a bone is like.

I welcome your experience claiming that people that get hit in the face don't bleed, and I'll refer you to a radiologist, but there is more than just me on this board that has experience in martial arts, and I have no doubt they will say "I get hit in the nose, and yes, I bleed, so I endeavor not to get hit in the nose".

The rest of your argument may be partially sound, but people that get their nose broken and don't bleed and don't have black eyes? I suggest you've never had either happen to you on either side, and thank heaven you haven't. It's called horse shit.

If Zimmerman got hit hard enough to be afraid for his life, he would at least have a bloody nose.

Why defend him? Are you so cowardly that you would rather kill someone than suffer a knick on the chin?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

105. That is not the legal standard

Which is reasonable fear of great bodily injury or death. My point was that UNLESS you are in a dojo etc, getting your bell rung, with or without fractures or bleeding may meet the reasonable man standard required for the use of deadly force in self defense.

If you are hit hard enough for it to be fatal, in the dojo or out of it, you got hit. Hard. It may or may not have broken bones, but it would have caused blood to flow.

You need read up on cerebral trauma. There was a recent incident involving some young girls in the Los Angeles area who got in a fight. No blood no apparent injury, and one of the died due to a subdural hematoma. Car accidents and motorcycle accidents can cause the same kind of thing, exterior trauma not required.

If you are the sort of person that could get hit, have no blood to flow, and have no bones broken, I recommend you for the Vampire school of the martial arts, because frankly, people that have actually trained in them for years are going to laugh their ass off at you pretending like you know what a strike in the face designed to break a bone is like.

I welcome your experience claiming that people that get hit in the face don't bleed, and I'll refer you to a radiologist, but there is more than just me on this board that has experience in martial arts, and I have no doubt they will say "I get hit in the nose, and yes, I bleed, so I endeavor not to get hit in the nose".

The point I made was that it is POSSIBLE to break a nose without a shower of blood and black eyes. Lack of them is not proof positive it did not happen. Its not common but I have seen it. IIRC it they were mostly spiral/oblique fractures. That is why to go Radiology and then have the Radiologist tell you if it was broken.

You may not be aware of it, but one of the parameters used in California for deciding how to charge people in fights is if there are broken bones. Assault moves to Assault with GBI if victim has a bone broken and the perp is treat as a violent offender, even before trial.

The rest of your argument may be partially sound, but people that get their nose broken and don't bleed and don't have black eyes? I suggest you've never had either happen to you on either side, and thank heaven you haven't. It's called horse shit.

No its called lack of experience on your part. All, every time, etc are the statements of fools or those without broad experience. Any ER doc will say its rate, but that they have seen it.

If Zimmerman got hit hard enough to be afraid for his life, he would at least have a bloody nose.

With all your Hai Karate experience, you probably know when you get hit how badly you are hurt. That is not true with the untrained. They get their bell rung, not even particularly hard, and they lose focus/control and think they are really hurt or in danger. That is the legal standard which is what matters.

Why defend him? Are you so cowardly that you would rather kill someone than suffer a knick on the chin?

I have not defended him. I have been pointing out that there is practically no information out there that documents if he was hurt other than a police report noting that EMS looked at his injuries. That has recently changed. It was triple posted before we went out for sushi, so I know by now you have seen it. It shows Zimmerman being quite clean at the police station. It is the first piece of real data (vice suppositions of Hai Karate masters) that if he had any injuries they were minor. It is a very good thing.

[Aerows]

106. you need to read up on current events

It appears there have been some new developments, and it appears that I am correct. No blood, his face isn't even red.

Video of Zimmerman is now available. You can say "You are right, Aerows" anytime you feel ready

[ProgressiveProfessor]

108. Actually I was posting links to it before I went to dinner

It is the kind of clear evidence that was needed given all the crap that was coming out from all sides.

The EMS report will detail what they saw prior to the video. It should be the last nail in the self defense argument.

[Aerows]

109. Okay.

You need to save face. I'll let you. Enjoy your dinner.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

111. Ahhh that was 4 hours ago and the sushi was excellent.

[Aerows]

112. Good sushi is awesome

I wish I would have had sushi for dinner!

[Aerows]

107. Oh, and I forgot

You are the almighty CCW teacher in CA which makes you a lawyer, an MD and clairvoyant.

Not to mention condescending towards people before the facts came out, but hey, you teach a CCW class, so you don't need facts before you are condescending, do you? I'll bet you are the law in those there parts, no need to question YOUR credentials.

If you would like to hamstring your own self further, I'll help you out since I'm just an idiot that said "people don't get broken noses without their faces being red" since I've had one before. But YOU are an expert CCW teacher, so we can all defer to your superior judgment despite the facts proving you wrong, even further.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

110. Well, at least I am better informed on these issues and was trying to separate truth from

fiction while we waited for hard facts to come out. Others rushed to judgement without evidence. Think that makes me the rational one if nothing else.

I am ecstatic that the video is out...since it is direct and uncompromised evidence. Something we have had so little of previously.

However, you are clearly a Hai Karate master...

[Aerows]

113. No, "Professor"

I am merely a person that doesn't leap to conclusions that make no sense and act condescendingly towards others without reason to do so.

[DocMac]

87. Right. And anyone in their right mind

who is in his situation would be quick to take pictures to prove that he got beat badly. A broken nose and two black eyes is not a pretty sight. We'll see if he has any pics of that when this ends up in court.

People takes pictures of property damage all the time to show insurance companies that the damage was TRUE.

[Aerows]

91. No photos

Just hearsay. That works when a person is guilty and he's going to cry to high heaven about how put upon he was for gunning a person down in cold blood.

I have no issues with guns, and if you confront me, you are in for a Southern Surprise with a blast. That doesn't mean you can chase people down, which is the idiocy that many seem to disregard. If you chase someone down, you get whatever you get.

[DocMac]

96. I'm in complete agreement.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

100. No photos...that we know of

Police may have taken some, EMS may have taken some, Zimmerman may have taken some...only the State Attorney knows for sure at this point.

[GOTV]

8. Yeah, I heard that claim that Trayvon was beating his head against the sidewalk ...

... and in that case, if I had the gun, I'd probably use it too regardless of whether I was right or wrong to have been pursuing him. It would just be a survival thing.

But, if I had done that, I would think I would end up with a considerable amount of the victims blood on me. If I wasn't close enough to get blood on me I don't know how I could claim I thought I was in grave danger. Certainly pulling the gun would save me if we were more than an arms length apart.

It seems like an easy thing to check though. Did Zimmerman have Trayvon's blood on him? At this point I would guess Zimmerman has either disposed of the clothes he was wearing or at least washed them.

[marshall]

20. The allegation is that they were struggling over the gun

In cases of a normal firing another bullet is loaded into the chamber. Police say there was no bullet in the chamber, suggesting a struggle that prevented the chamber from turning.

[GOTV]

23. That's interesting, how is a gun being fired during a struggle ...

... different than the gun being fired intentionally? Can this kind of gun be fired without pulling the trigger?

[DocMac]

31. It was a 9mm and that sounds like a semi-auto.

I don't know if there is a 9mm revolver. But if it was a semi and a round was not chambered, it would take two hands to chamber one. That can't be easy to do with someone on top of you beating your head on the pavement.

If it was a semi-auto, he would just need to pull back the hammer and pull the trigger if it had one in the chamber.
If it was a revolver he just needs to pull ther trigger. In either case he has to squeeze the trigger.

[Snake Alchemist]

38. "If it was a semi-auto, he would just need to pull back the hammer and pull the trigger"

No. If a round was chambered, all he would have to do is pull back the trigger. The trigger would raise the hammer and drop it, firing the gun. The hammer would then either stay up or stay down depending on the gun.

[DocMac]

54. Oh, I see.

I thought that once you chamber a round the hammer stays back So, if you lower the hammer down,all you need to do is pull the trigger? I haven't fired a handgun since the Marines, 35 years ago.

[Snake Alchemist]

57. Yep, you've got it.

With a hammer lowered and the safety off, all you have to do is pull the trigger. That is called Double Action firing. A bit harder to hit something than Single Action, but not impossible.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

82. IIRC the police report said it was a Kel Tec

which does not make a revolver today. Not sure if they ever did. They are known mostly for small semi autos designed for CCW.

[kudzu22]

35. Could be he cleared it

before the cops arrived.

[K Gardner]

18. Yes, utter b/s. Any EMS crew would IMMEDIATELY transport a pt to the ER who

stated he'd had his "head repeatedly bashed against the sidewalk".

That's garbage. Plus, remember the FIRST thing we heard from the "other side" is simply "If only Trayvon had ANSWERED APPROPRIATELY". So first the problem was that Trayvon didn't use the right words.

Now all of a sudden, Trayvon beat the crap out of a guy 100 lbs heavier..broke his nose and bashed his head in.

No ER records. Bullshit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. And as I pointed last night

If EMS did not transport, since the pt refused care and was alert and oriented times three...where is the AMA?

I mean I required these things in a far less litigious country, no way EMS did not require one in a far more litigious country.

AMA = Against Medical Advise, as the joke goes, cya for medical providers.

Either that, or the first aid provided in the back of a police cruiser was for really minor, read no broken nose and bleeding head, injuries.

[K Gardner]

36. Exactly. n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

80. That is one of several official records that need to be seen

Autopsy report, the rest of the police reports are also on that list.

[CAPHAVOC]

3. Yes

There would be spatter if the clothes did not block it. Also other things can be determined from the clothes and the wounds. These could be compared to the account by Zimmerman to see if they match. Even if the clothes are gone crime scene photos may have information that can be used.

[Oilwellian]

4. We're also asked to believe...

that Treyvon was crying out for help while supposedly pummeling Zimmerman.

[dkf]

27. Police believe Zimmerman was the one crying for help.

[LanternWaste]

47. Witness to the incident emphatically believes otherwise...

Witness to the incident emphatically believes otherwise...


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002477512

[ProgressiveProfessor]

83. Another witness says otherwise

In all the statements and forensic evidence is released it is hard to make sense of what details have been released.

[dkf]

84. I tend to believe the person found to have more physical damage was probably the one yelling.

Right now we don't know who that is.

[Oilwellian]

52. Trayvon Martin's mother thinks otherwise

Also, a witness has also come forward and said the cry sounded like a child. She spoke to Zimmerman within seconds after the shooting. According to her, he was standing over Trayvon's body, straddled, and had his hand on his back. If it were Zimmerman crying for help, he would still be crying and very distraught seconds later after the gunshot. Obviously that is not what was observed.

And that leads us to question how Zimmerman got out from under Trayvon's body within seconds of the shooting. According to the information leaked by Sanford PD, Zimmerman shot Trayvon while Trayvon allegedly was on top of him, beating him.

Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police. Trayvon then said, "Well, you do now" or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose, according to the account he gave police.

Zimmerman fell to the ground and Trayvon got on top of him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk, he told police.

Zimmerman began yelling for help.

Zimmerman then shot Trayvon once in the chest at very close range, according to authorities.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

[grasswire]

5. where was zimmerman when the shot was fired?

I haved puzzled over this too. If it was while Trayvon had him on the ground (I agree that is an unlikely scenario considering the weight differences) allegedly bashing his head on sidewalk, Zimmerman would have been drenched with blood.

Something else. If Travyon was bashing Zimmerman's head on the sidewalk, why are there grass stains on Zimmerman's shirt? Are we to believe that Travon dragged Zimmerman from the grass to the sidewalk? Or what?

Trayvon's football coach who has known him since he was five years old said that when he heard the story that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, he knew it was a lie.

[uponit7771]

9. Another good observatiion, there's no account were ZMan is standing

[gkhouston]

14. I'm thinking that if Zimmerman had any injuries or grass stains at all,

he might have just tripped on something in the dark.

[uponit7771]

6. Great observation, there's no realy good way to shoot someone with good aim if you're getting punche

...punched in the face continually

[GOTV]

12. I imagine that would be tough. But if Trayvon were on top of him ...

... it would just be a matter of getting your hand on the gun and firing up. He could possibly have even pushed the barrel against Trayvon's chest or side.

[DocMac]

32. Yeah, but he would have to chamber a round.

That would take two hands with a semi-automatic.


Edit. for typing too fast...jeebus this keyboard.

[Snake Alchemist]

39. Unless a round was chambered. nt

[DocMac]

50. Right. But post #20 above states that

the police said that there wasn't a round in the chamber. That means he cleared the chamber and took the clip out. A semi-automatic would have put another round in the chamber after the bullet was fired.

I was wondering if Zimmerman told police that there wasn't a round in the chamber when this all started. I'm not clear on this.

It's a really fishy to me.

[Snake Alchemist]

51. Or he took the clip out and cleared it after the shooting.

You're supposed to do that after you are done shooting, but no clue what was going on in this instance.

[DocMac]

56. Yeah, He would have cleared it.

I thought the cops were saying that this Zimmerman guy claimed that he didn't have a round chambered when the scuffle started. If he did, it makes his story that much harder to believe.

[Snake Alchemist]

58. A lot still needs to come out. I still don't even know what gun he had. nt

[DocMac]

61. I don't have the link.

But i'm pretty sure it was a 9mm. I don't know if they make 9mm revolvers.

[Snake Alchemist]

64. Looks like it was a little double action semi-auto.

9mm revolver would be extremely rare.

[DocMac]

73. Yeah, that makes sense. nt

[X_Digger]

62. KelTec PF9 .. see link

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf

[Snake Alchemist]

63. Ah, I'm familiar with it. nt

[WI_DEM]

10. it would also indicate a wound made at extremely close range.

[uponit7771]

65. +1!!!!! I think from CIS episodes they can tell how far away a shot was fired

[alcibiades_mystery]

11. He would have Mr. Martin's blood on him

Given the description of the fight, Mr. Martin should also have Mr. Zimmerman's blood and other tissue all over himself - a question that can be easily checked in the currently sealed autopsy documents. How was Mr. Martin supposedly smashing Mr. Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk? Was he holding him by the hair? The face? You have to pull up and smash down: there should be Mr. Zimmerman's tissue all over Mr. Martin's hands. The story Mr. Zimmerman's cohort and fan club seem to be telling would certainly result in forensic evidence all over Trayvon Martin. The autopsy is currently sealed. I suspect it will also have sealed Mr. Zimmerman's fate.

[GeorgeGist]

13. If Trayvon ...

was Standing his Ground, there is no debate. Zimmerman was the predator.

[LiberalFighter]

89. What I don't get is how GZ is the innocent party

when he initiated the incident. And I don't trust his story when he has a degree in criminal justice and contact with the Sanford police department. He is likely to have enough knowledge to develop a story that would pass initial muster with a police investigation by that department. He just needed the right people in the police department with authority to dirty up the facts. There is even a question now that the Sanford PD were involved in witness tampering.

[DefenseLawyer]

15. This is why police should be required to simply gather evidence properly at a crime scene

present that evidence to a prosecutor, who can determine what charges if any should be filed and then ultimately have a jury decide the case based upon the evidence presented. When you have the police making judgment calls about whether a crime took place and thus whether to treat something as a crime scene, you have this kind of breakdown. This kind of "nothing to see here" determination by cops on the scene is unacceptable.

[GOTV]

17. I think that's the key failure of the Sanford PD.

So many questions that may not have occurred the police at the scene, but have popped up since, cannot be answered because evidence was not collected.

Was it incompetence or complicity?

[X_Digger]

46. Do we know that evidence wasn't collected?

The Sanford PD website doesn't list all the evidence, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, or wasn't collected.

In the orlando station footage, there's yellow crime scene tape up everywhere and you can see CSI types taking pictures in the background.

[GOTV]

67. Personally I don't know what evidence was or wasn't collected ...

... I've just heard descriptions of Zimmerman having a broken nose, lacerations on the back of his head and grass stains on his clothes but no mention of having blood on his clothes as I would expect if Trayvon was on top of him as described when he was shot.

It could be that he didn't have blood on his clothes or that he did and no one noticed or that he did, the evidence was collected and no one has talked about it. But if it was the latter why would they not talk about it as it might support their claim that Zimmerman was attacked and that he shot in self defense?

If, on the other hand, Trayvon beat Zimmerman up and then started to leave and Zimmermen shot him in anger at having been beaten, then Zimmerman would still have all the signs of being attacked but could not really claim that he needed to shoot to prevent injury.

[X_Digger]

72. We definitely have an incomplete picture.

It's always frustrating trying to draw conclusions (or even know the right questions to ask!) without more data.

Every bit of data we get seems to open up more possibilities and more questions.

[uponit7771]

66. +1

[ProgressiveProfessor]

101. It sorta sounds like that is what they did and the SA told them not to arrest Zimmerman

All we have at this point is press interviews, two partial reports from the patrol cops who got there first and a massive amount of conjecture. There is so much crap out there that its hard to know whom to believe at this point.

[atreides1]

16. A very good question

But, don't worry...I'm sure the Sanford police will make up the evidence as they go along, it's what they've been doing since this whole episode blew up in their faces.

Some seem to think that just because the police chief and the state attorney have recused themselves from this investigation and the governor, who no one trusts, has assigned a hand picked committee to investigate, that the officers still on the force, which includes those who were at the scene...can be trusted.

This will end up being Taryvon Martin's fault and Zimmerman will become a new cult hero for the rabid gun lovers, and the Tea Baggers!!!

[DocMac]

37. If Zimmerman walks, expect riots. nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

19. Why was Trayvon's body face down?

If he was on top of Zimmerman and Zimmerman shot him, would the shot cause him to fall face down? I would think the force from the bullet would have caused him to fall back or to the side. If it did cause him to fall face down and on top of Zimmerman, I guess he could have slid out beneath the body but that seems far less likely to me.

And where was the entrance wound for the bullet. Because if the entrance wound is on Trayvon's back, that pretty much nukes any self-defense argument Zimmerman could try to make.

[GOTV]

21. I didn't know that we still don't know where the bullet went in.

I always assumed it was his chest.

If Zimmerman fired while Trayvon was over him and beating him then I would expect Trayvon would have fallen forward onto Zimmerman (covering him with blood) at which point Zimmerman would have had to push him off to the side. I don't know if it would be more likely that the body would have rolled onto it's back or just slid off and remained face down.

If Zimmerman didn't fire in the midst of being being beaten I don't see how he could claim to have needed to fire at all - which is of course what most people here are contending, that he had no good reason.

But man, if the bullet entered Trayvon's back I don't know what else there is to say.

[kudzu22]

40. Bullets only move bodies on TV

In real life they make holes and continue on their way. I agree a lot depends on the angle and location of the wounds, but I don't think being face down means anything in particular.

[HooptieWagon]

22. Yes, and in addition there would gunpowder on Trayvons clothes.

Tests can be done to determine the range at which the gun was fired. Also, the angle of the wound can reveal the angle of the gun when fired. Apparently none of these investigations were carried out by SPD. Sloppy or ? ...

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Oh Com'on blood spatter from being shot short range?

What is this? A CSI episode? (Only tv program that half way shows how messy this really is)

[HooptieWagon]

30. Actually, yes.

If there is no blood spatter on Zimmerman or gunpowder residue on Trayvon then the gun was fired from at least several feet away. That sort of throws a wrench in the claim of self defense, since Trayvon was unarmed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. I know

Why I made the joke about CSI...as you know, any murder on the tv machine has little blood and even less gun powder residue.

This is the frame of reference for most media watchers...and CSI, for story telling sake does go there

I was being sarcastic. As a medic, we always tried to expose gun injuries by cuttin around the entry, not through it, to preserve that valuable evidence. Somehow I don't think even this was done.

[DefenseLawyer]

41. Blood splatter and powder residue are junk science

invented by cops. There's no scientific basis for either one.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Why in real life we were told to

Cut around the actual entry if possible when taking care of real patients and clothes were sent to the lab.

[DefenseLawyer]

55. The FBI abandoned residue testing in 2006

because they could no longer overcome a Daubert objection. I'm not saying that residue evidence hasn't been gathered and presented, and I'm sure you were told to preserve it; I'm saying there is no scientific basis for such evidence.

[X_Digger]

48. Don't you know that cops can zoom in on a digital picture and..

.. make more detail appear?!? Bah! Fooey on you and your 'science-y' notions.

A prosecuting attorney friend of mine dubbed it the 'CSI factor'- says sometimes it helps, and sometimes it hurts cases.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. For real jury instructions locally include forgetting all you saw

On the tv machine, especially CSI and law and Order

[X_Digger]

74. I can imagine that.

I wonder how many jury instructions in the past included, "Forget what you saw on Matlock.", "Forget what you saw on Dragnet.", or "Forget what you saw on Perry Mason."..

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. According to local prosecutor

Potentisl jurors expect their local pd to have them fancy toys. Some of them don't exist even at Quantico at the FBI lab.

That is the problem.

[X_Digger]

78. Some don't exist at all.. (taking reflections from pictures, blowing them up, getting detail..)

[Uncle Joe]

28. I believe if Zimmerman shot Trayvon up close there should also be gunpowder residue on

Martin's body/clothing.

Thanks for the thread, GOTV.

[Yavin4]

42. If Zimmerman Was That Beaten Up, Wouldn't The Sanford Police Call An Ambulance

to check him out? If so, shouldn't there be some kind of report about it? If you've had your head pounded against the pavement, isn't there a possiblity of a concussion?

[X_Digger]

49. Sanford Fire Rescue checked him out in the back of the cruiser, apparently..

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf

Injuries must not have been very bad, since from there he went to the police station for questioning.

[Yavin4]

53. Your Link Does Not Contain A Report from the Paramedics

Thus, we have no medical confirmation of Zimmerman's injuries.

[X_Digger]

60. I didn't say it did.. just that SFRescue apparently checked him out. n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

102. That is far from the only report being withheld at this point

by the state attorney

[onethatcares]

70. why does that say "unneccessary killing"?

n/t

[X_Digger]

71. Looks like an internal code to me.

They probably have a thick book of different codes for different types of incidents.

I wouldn't read too much into it, honestly.

[onethatcares]

45. I want to see an original crime scene photograph

of both participants. I'm certain the SPD has cameras of some type.

Just a photo of Zimmermans broken nose and the grass stains on the back of his shirt. No big deal.

and in response to the concussion he might have suffered. I believe the police would make him go to the

e.r. to be checked out just to mitigate the possibility of a lawsuit down the road. There should be an ambulance

report on that also.

[Ganja Ninja]

59. I want to see the trajectory report.

What angle was the bullet fired from?
How close was the shooter?
Were they face to face?

If it were me I would also want an independent autopsy. I don't think the Sanford cops can be trusted.

[LiberalFighter]

90. It could be that Sanford PD doesn't have proper protocols.

It could be that they learn everything about proper procedures while watching cop shows.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

103. You are aware that the police and later EMS tried to resuscitate Martin?

That contaminated the scene, though it was the right thing to do.

People can refuse medical treatment, even while they are being detained. However, there has to be an EMS report of some sort and possibly a waiver if he refused further treatment on the scene.

There is a lot of data being withheld by the State Attorney at this point. It will answer a lot of our questions.

[K8-EEE]

69. It seems like the point of entry of the bullet and the range etc.

Would answer a LOT of questions, is this info secret for some reason?

[Life Long Dem]

75. I don't believe Trayvon was beating Zimmerman when he was shot

I believe Trayvon was beating Zimmerman, and the fight broke up when he was shot. The distance between the two will need to come out in trial. But two witnesses say the fight took place three to four houses away from where Trayvon lay dead.

[cthulu2016]

79. You may not like this answer, but no

In the context of stand-your-ground, Zimmerman could have quite properly shot Martin at a bit of a distance.

Hypothetical: A person attacks you. You end up rolling on the ground getting hit. You manage to scramble away. The person (who you have legitimate reason to fear in the context of this hypothetical) takes a step toward you.

Under stand-your-ground you may fire. You don't need to wait until he is hitting you again. You are not obliged to run away even if you have a clear path to do so.

So the assumption that the shot was fired between two wrestling people is not necessary to the defense.

(And anyone wondering why I am "defending" Zimmerman in this reply, save it. This is an abstract discussion of the law, not a claim as to what happened in the particular case.)

[Johnson20]

92. Yes and the first thing

a good self defense instructor will tell you: if attacked, and you are at bad breath distance, create distance first if you can. The amount of distance depends on the situation.

[ananda]

88. Zimmerman's story is a load of bullpucky.

All this media focus on Trayvon's faults and Zimmerman's false story is indeed nothing less than a posthumous lynching, as someone here already pointed out.

[Johnson20]

93. Your proof please! What would you testifiy to in a court of law? n/t

[uppityperson]

94. You keep confusing an internet forum with a court of law. Odd

[Johnson20]

95. No, just pointing out stupid, naive and prejudicial comments, as we all should.

[Rex]

97. And others are pointing out how odd you think this is a trial

and not a discussion forum. How sad.

[Oilwellian]

114. One thing is certain now...

Since the release of the video of Zimmerman at the police station, we know there wasn't a fight. We also know Trayvon was not on top of him when he supposedly shot him in the chest, point blank. If that were the case, there would be blood spattered all over his green shirt. There's not even a speck.