There really are two sides to Stand Your Ground laws.

[Warren Stupidity]

One side would like to kill more people, a lot more people, and would like to be personally in on the killing. We heard them cheering on queue at every Teapublican debate, every time the slightest hint of bloodlust arose.

The other side is just f'ing horrified at where this country is going.

[spin]

1. Strange, I don't fit into either group and I have a Florida Concealed Weapons permit...

I have absolutely no desire to ever use my handgun to shoot another person. I fault Zimmerman for not following the dispatchers instructions and confronting Martin. So I don't fit into group one.

I guess that I am closer to group two as I am upset that the two major political parties in our nation appear to be unable to solve any of the problems we face but are more interested in playing a political version of football. I also am upset at the Great Recession and the fact that many people who want to work can't find jobs. However I"m not "f'ing horrified" about where the country is going. I'm not quite that pessimistic.

[Bandit]

2. There is another side as well

As long as new radical laws get placed into effect and then get abused as they most certainly will and have, then the fear mongers can get busy and yell "Obama's coming for your guns" and what happens next is the gun industry has record sales and simply can not keep up with demand...It doesn't take a rocket scientist to put two and two together here..Fear and Loathing is what it is all about.. The more the fear and loathing the more profit there is to be made...

[Warren Stupidity]

3. well that is a fair point, there is always the mercantilist angle on everything.

So there are two sides and one angle

[ProgressiveProfessor]

5. Between SYG and Castle Doctrine

40+ states are covered. Those laws are not new nor radical. You will need to find a more accurate mantra.

Gun sales are at record highs. Depending whom you believe, there may or may not be a declining number of gun owners nationwide. Everybody agrees that the numbers of non-traditional gun owners are growing.

In the class I taught this weekend, the was not one straight white male or anyone you would call a right winger, gun nut, or cowboy. Lots of political/ethical discussion including the Zimmerman and Horn shootings. All of them had/were buying guns and were first time owners.

[Warren Stupidity]

13. Dishonest conflation of CD and SYG.

The SYG laws are new almost everywhere and part of the radical rightwing agenda being pushed by ALEC.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. Check your facts...SYG is a more general case of Castle Doctrine, both are no duty to retreat

Some states have SYG explicitly in their state codes, others never codified duty to retreat. 40+ have some form of Castle Defense.

One of the problems is the lack of uniformity. It does vary state by state, and within them different jurisdictions have considerably different interpretations and policies. One legitimate self defense case I have personal knowledge of in California, the DA wanted to deny self defense since the shooter, a CCW holder, had double tapped the perp instead of a single shot. All other issues were fine, but that was considered "too aggressive" since there were "trained". Those are the kind of cases that lead to "no duty to retreat" laws.

It is an irregular landscape at best. Discussing evening it out and clarifying this is a good place to start. Its calm and rationale. Not seeing a lot of that here or elsewhere.

Outrage makes for piss poor legislation...

[spin]

10. Obama's off camera remark to Medvedev will cause firearms sales to skyrocket ...

His comment was, "This is my last election. After my election I have more flexibility." http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-obama-open-microphone-20120327,0,1479756.story

Gun owners also remember Obama's comment to Jim and Sarah Brady.

Over a barrel? Meet White House gun policy adviser Steve Croley

***snip***

On March 30, the 30th anniversary of the assassination attempt on President Ronald Reagan, Jim Brady, who sustained a debilitating head wound in the attack, and his wife, Sarah, came to Capitol Hill to push for a ban on the controversial “large magazines.” Brady, for whom the law requiring background checks on handgun purchasers is named, then met with White House press secretary Jay Carney. During the meeting, President Obama dropped in and, according to Sarah Brady, brought up the issue of gun control, “to fill us in that it was very much on his agenda,” she said.

“I just want you to know that we are working on it,” Brady recalled the president telling them. “We have to go through a few processes, but under the radar.”emphasis added

In the meeting, she said, Obama discussed how records get into the system and what can be done about firearms retailers. Her husband specifically brought up the proposed ban on large magazine clips, and she noted that even former vice president Dick Cheney had suggested that some restrictions on the clips might make sense.

“He just laughed,” Sarah Brady said approvingly of the president. Both she and her husband, she emphasized, had absolute confidence that the president was committed to regulation.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/over-a-barrel-meet-white-house-gun-policy-adviser-steve-croley/2011/04/04/AFt9EKND_story_2.html

Such remarks will generate some fear among gun owners that Obama will implement draconian gun control in his last term. Not only will firearm sales increase but there will likely be another ammo shortage.

There is no doubt that Obama has helped the firearms industry despite the fact that he has actually been somewhat pro-gun during his first term.

National Parks Gun Law Takes Effect in February
By Ed O'Keefe

A new law permitting concealed loaded firearms at National Parks will not take effect until February and the Interior Department will continue to enforce Reagan-era restrictions until then, a spokeswoman said today.

"Under the current regulation, firearms are generally prohibited, but citizens may transport unloaded and dismantled or cased firearms and carry firearms while participating in approved hunting programs and under certain other circumstances," Interior spokeswoman Kendra Barkoff said in a statement released minutes after President Obama signed the credit card holders' bill of rights, which includes an amendment allowing firearms at the nation's National Parks and wildlife refuges.emphasis added
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2009/05/national_parks_gun_law_take_ef.html

In an op-ed to the Arizona Daily Star, Obama actually outlined his ideas for improving gun control.

President Obama: We must seek agreement on gun reforms
Posted: Sunday, March 13, 2011 12:00 am

***snip***
That's why our focus right now should be on sound and effective steps that will actually keep those irresponsible, law-breaking few from getting their hands on a gun in the first place.

• First, we should begin by enforcing laws that are already on the books. The National Instant Criminal Background Check System is the filter that's supposed to stop the wrong people from getting their hands on a gun. Bipartisan legislation four years ago was supposed to strengthen this system, but it hasn't been properly implemented. It relies on data supplied by states - but that data is often incomplete and inadequate. We must do better.

• Second, we should in fact reward the states that provide the best data - and therefore do the most to protect our citizens.

• Third, we should make the system faster and nimbler. We should provide an instant, accurate, comprehensive and consistent system for background checks to sellers who want to do the right thing, and make sure that criminals can't escape it.

Read more: http://azstarnet.com/news/opinion/mailbag/president-obama-we-must-seek-agreement-on-gun-reforms/article_011e7118-8951-5206-a878-39bfbc9dc89d.html#ixzz1qM5xK1K6

Improving the NICS background check system is a goal that most gun owners would not oppose and it does make good sense.

I don't believe that Obama is pandering to gun owners because he fears that he might lose the next election because of their vote. He definitely won the last election despite the fact that many gun owners voted against him.
He is far from anti-gun but the firearms industry has benefited from this misconception.

[Warren Stupidity]

11. my state loonislature took care of "enforcing the laws already on the books"

by eliminating many of them and reducing the penalties for the remaining ones.

There really are only two sides (and one mercantile angle): the bloodlusters and the horrified.

[spin]

16. I own firearms and have a concealed weapons permit in Florida ...

but I have absolutely no desire to ever shoot another person, even if I were entirely within my right to do so after finding myself attacked by an individual who intended to put me in the hospital or six feet under. The psychological aftereffects of shooting another person can be significant. I currently sleep well at night and have no desire to have nightmares and wake up in a cold sweat.

You appear to be insinuating that people like me are all "bloodlusters". I know a good number of people who are regular shooters and have carry permits. Perhaps because the people that I know often practice shooting we differ from those who rarely shoot but legally carry firearms. None of my shooting friends has ever appeared to me to have any desire to "blow someone away". In fact, we go out of our way to avoid confrontation. I also know people who own and carry firearms but rarely go to the range. Perhaps I know only nice people who carry firearms but I could point out that in order to get a permit in Florida you have firearms training and pass a background check. The system is not fool proof and no all people who have concealed weapons permits are angels but statistics prove that as a group they are far more responsible with their firearms than other groups including police.

I don't take insult at your remark if you meant it that way. I'm merely pointing out that your view of gun owners and those who legally carry might be flawed.

[Warren Stupidity]

23. You are confusing 2nd amendment gun rights with SYG bloodlust laws.

The two are unrelated. The confusion is deliberate disinformation propagated by ALEC and the NRA.

[spin]

24. How is the SYG law related to either the 2nd Amendment or SYG?

The Second Amendment states:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

I don't see any mention of self defense or when you can legitimately use self defense in the text.

The Stand Your Ground law removes the duty to retreat when attacked in a manner that might lead to serious injury or death. It does not have anything to do with the Second Amendment as you can defend yourself with many items including but not restricted to firearms. If fact, if you are skillful and knowledgeable enough you can kill with your bare hands.

[Warren Stupidity]

25. It isn't. That is my point.

[LiberalFighter]

27. I realized that point back in the 80's.

The NRA and gun industry are tied together.

Someone should investigate the ties between the two and also the magazines they put out.

Question: Who has a good solid database of gun owners?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

4. Let me correct it for you...

There are those who want to realistically discuss the issue and those on irrational rants (pro and con).

SYG includes Castle Doctrine (whether you like it or not). Its the same concept...no duty to retreat. It needs some calm discussion, which is clearly not happening from either side.

[fascisthunter]

6. Hey everyone... everything is just fine.... behave!

I do not buy your concern for civilized debate. Nor do I agree with your both sides do it screed.

Nobody here is defending a murdering bigot! When we start doing that come back with the efforts to accuse both sides of the same shit.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

7. What does defending Zimmerman have to do with the debate on SYG and Castle Doctrine?

Both sides indeed screeching about SYG/CD, some here, some elsewhere. The OP said nothing about Zimmerman and neither did I

[Warren Stupidity]

12. CD was clearly contained, separated from the public commons, and still had some problems.

The fact that SYG includes CD is not even interesting to the debate. Taking CD into the public commons is insanity. Needless, bloodlusting insanity.

[Taverner]

8. I think the biggest problem is it is made up of weasel words

"feeling threatened"?

That could mean anything and everything.

The law might have some merit if changed to "clear and present danger"

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. The reasonable man standard is the basis of much of English common law

and derivatively, US law

[Taverner]

19. But the US is not made up of reasonable people

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. It is the legal standard, and juries have wrestled with it for years

[spin]

17. Not a bad idea...

It would cover situations where the attacker was armed and situations in which the attacker was unarmed but there was a considerable difference in size or physical condition, also when a much better fighter overcame an armed opponent and refused to break off the fight but was willing to inflict serious damage.

[Life Long Dem]

9. Something needs to be done about the SYG law.

Miami judge decides fatal stabbing was self-defense

Judge Beth Bloom threw out the murder charge against a man who chased a car burglar for more than a block and then stabbed him, killing him.


Greyston Garcia, whose murder charges were thrown out by a Miami-Dade judge Wednesday based on Florida's 'Stand Your Ground' law.

By DAVID OVALLE
[e-mail]

As critics assail Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law in the wake of the killing of an unarmed Miami Gardens teen in Sanford, a Miami-Dade judge on Wednesday cited the law in tossing out the case of a man who chased down a suspected burglar and stabbed him to death.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/21/2706789/miami-judge-stabbing-in-the-back.html#storylink=cpy

[spin]

18. Concealed weapons classes teach ...

if the attack is over and the attacker is fleeing, an individual has no right to chase him down and kill him. In fact, if an individual does chase down a person, that person has a right to use self defense to prevent serious injury to himself.

I can't see any reason that this case would involve a stand your ground defense.

From the information in the article, I feel the judge has misinterpreted the meaning of the law.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

22. Either that or there is more to it than was in the media

Judges tend not to make that kind of major screw up...I would want more complete context before I went that route.

[spin]

26. The news media absolutely hates the SYG law ...

so any news reports that we read about the subject may be very biased.

[X_Digger]

20. There are two sides of every false dichotomy.. n/t