I have a diagnosed mental illness.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

Today I learned that.....


My medication and treatment regimen doesn't work.

I cannot be trusted.

My rights aren't as important as the rights of a healthy person.

I should be put in a database, you know, just in case.....



Repost:


I don't want a gun!

And if you follow my posting here you will see that I'm not really a fan of them. That being said, the way people with mental illnesses are being talked about on here today is really upsetting. We're people too, and we're more than likely just trying to get by like the rest of you.



I guess what I'm trying to say is this...please aware that you're not talking about people with mental illnesses in the abstract, many of us post here. We have feelings, we're not all mass murderers who you need to keep an eye on. We just happen to have an illness (that you can't see), just like any other diagnosed illness.
“There are many things that can only be seen through eyes that have cried” - Oscar A. Romero

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. ...

[BainsBane]

2. Anything to avoid the heart of the issue

Guns.

We are told owning guns is a right, but those same people quickly advocate discrimination against folks with diagnosed mental illnesses in order to protect the precious guns.

[Bjorn Against]

4. Exactly, and this is one of those cases in which they are using outright bigotry to avoid the issue

Make no mistake about it, scapegoating the mentally ill is outright bigotry.

[Cali_Democrat]

7. Yup. nt

[ForgoTheConsequence]

17. We need to have the discussion.

And I'm one that thinks we would be better off without guns all together. But we also need to know that words can have an impact and choose them wisely. This is true whether we're dealing with race, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, handicaps, mental illness, etc.


No group deserves to be marginalized and used as a means to an end to make a point.

[thucythucy]

79. Excellent post:

eloquent and to the point.

And your OP is an invaluable contribution to DU.

Thanks, and best wishes.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

27. yup. nt

[pipoman]

30. I haven't seen a single pro 2nd person on

This board saying that people with diagnosed mental illness should be banned from owning guns. Only gun control advocates have said that that I have seen. The gun rights activists here are pretty much in agreement that a conviction or involuntary committment should be required, as it is now.

[BainsBane]

31. You haven't looked very hard

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4773750

[pipoman]

38. darkangel is a gun control advocate.

[BainsBane]

39. That's why she says she supports the 2a in her post

Give me a break. We saw it after Sandyhook and we see it again now. Pretending otherwise is BS.

Besides, the entire gungeon claims to support gun control, until it's time to lift a finger.

[clffrdjk]

51. And the most often heard phrase before a gun ban is suggested is I support the 2nd amendment.

I support women's rights but...
I support gay rights but....

You get the picture?

[pipoman]

54. In an alternate universe

[LanternWaste]

90. A clever way to rationalize it to better maintain your perception.

A clever way to rationalize it to better maintain your perception.

[darkangel218]

196. I support the second amendment abut I also support gun control and revised gun laws.

Are you saying you know what I think better than me?? And don't fucking accuse me of lying.

Have a nice day.

[bowens43]

152. there is no such thing as 'gun rights' that is a myth perpetrated by the death merchants

and their mindless supporters. And yes we know that the gun fetishists believe anyone should be able to get a gun of any kind anywhere at anytime.....

[pipoman]

154. There is a distinction

Between those who deny that the BoR is entirely enumeration of individual rights, and those revisionists who like to pretend that all the amendments except the 2nd are individual.

Choose your semantics, there are people here, Democrats, who wish for conservative interpretation of the 2nd. We can call them prohibitionists, deniers, gun control advocates (usually really prohibitionists in disguise), anti-2nd, etc. There are those here, Democrats, who believe in a liberal interpretation of the 2nd. We can call them civil liberations, pro-2nd, gun rights advocates, etc. Choose your semantics, we all know what we are talking about here. Just know that traditionally liberals have been freedom over safety, and conservatives have been willing to sacrifice freedom for safety.

[Progressive dog]

155. Only the 2nd mentions "a well regulated militia",

militias are not individuals.

[pipoman]

156. asked and answered about 1000 times

By SCOTUS, constitutional law scholars, the Democratic party platform, the president of the United States, etc. There are those who are ignorant and can't understand the language, most though are simply pretenders who refuse to be honest in hopes that the ignorant outnumbertthose who can research and understand the true meaning.

[Progressive dog]

159. The reply was to your claim of a distinction between rights,

not to whether the 2nd amendment is an individual right.
As far as you claims of authority in this post, they are so general and exaggerated that they are meaningless.

[pipoman]

161. Apparently you failed to read the statement i was responding to. ..

[Progressive dog]

162. I responded to you. Apparently you failed to

read the statement you responded to.

[pipoman]

157. oh, and

Nobody has ever answered why, knowing that the founders were trying very hard to not be ambiguous, they would write:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.[/i ]

instead of:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the militia to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

If that is what they really meant. No, the collective lie is dead, many in these parts just refuse to acknowledge it, it is the only argument they had which doesn't require a constitutional amendment which most people even here on DU oppose.

[Progressive dog]

158. You should have been there to set them straight

on what they meant.

[pipoman]

160. And yet again,

No answer to the question.

[Progressive dog]

163. You didn't ask a question, so why do you expect an answer?

You made a claim, apparently you didn't read your post that I responded to.

[Vattel]

91. nice point

[NutmegYankee]

110. *Ahem* I call bullshit.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4773788

[hunter]

113. This is exactly what it is.

Thanks.

[bowens43]

151. every instance of gun violence have one thing in common, a gun. Period. Guns ARE the problem.

[SunsetDreams]

3. What is this in reference to? nt

[Make7]

14. Most likely this:

People suffering from severe depression should be banned from purchasing/carrying guns

[SunsetDreams]

15. Thanks Make7 nt

[geckosfeet]

5. Databases are for electronic data silly.

[itsrobert]

6. Yes you should be in a database

Why do background checks if nobody is in the database?

[ForgoTheConsequence]

10. At least your honest.

Sad.

[pipoman]

34. There are plenty in there with convictions and involuntary committment. .

Due process before civil rights can be revoked doesn't equal a single quacks opinion.

[Union Scribe]

73. You're encouraging people with potential

mental health problems to not seek treatment.

BTW, if you wear glasses I want you in the database too, because your aim can't be trusted. And if you take any OTC medicines you're banned too, because many can cause light-headedness and other problematic symptoms. Also if you have bought alcohol in the last six months.

[HuckleB]

100. Has he or she committed a crime?

Nope. Next.

[fizzgig]

179. why should we be in a database?

should drunks be in a database? crack heads? meth heads? unconvicted abusers? it's far more worrisome to me that those populations have guns than someone with an anxiety or depressive disorder. why do you make the misguided assumption that a diagnosis = violence?

[ForgoTheConsequence]

8. I don't even want a gun.

And if you follow my posting here you will see that I'm not really a fan of them. That being said, the way people with mental illnesses are being talked about on here today is really upsetting. We're people too, and we're more than likely just trying to get by like the rest of you.



I guess what I'm trying to say is this...please aware that you're not talking about people with mental illnesses in the abstract, many of us post here. We have feelings, we're not all mass murderers who you need to keep an eye on. We just happen to have an illness (that you can't see), just like any other diagnosed illness.

[SunsetDreams]

11. Please put that in the OP:

very powerful!

[truedelphi]

29. It's a shame that people are so passionate about a cause that

Anyone asking for even a little bit of consideration gets slammed, as they might possibly be a troll against that cause.

[JoePhilly]

84. My father was diagnosed as manic depressive with schizophrenic tendencies.

Medication helped some, when he took it. But it also made him tired. So did it really work?

He'd fly into a rage with almost no warning. Mom was usually the target, but not always.

At times he had a rifle, shotgun, and hand gun. He ended up selling the rifle and hand gun during a manic phase, which was a good thing.

The shotgun was stolen one night when, after an argument with some local guys at a nearby recreation center, he went back to explain how tough he was. He had it dangling out of the window while talking to one of them, when another snuck over, ran by and swiped it from him. Fortunately it was unloaded. Those guys smashed it to pieces. Which was also a good thing.

After one particularly bad night not too long after, mom left him. He made threats, to her, to himself. Murder Suicide kinds of things.

Started to take his meds again. Took a job driving all night. Fell asleep driving. Crashed into a disabled vehicle and died. Fortunately the other people saw him coming and got away.

If that crash did not happen, I'm not sure how things would have proceeded. At times, he'd get a look in his eyes that said "I will kill you". And you believed he could.

He should have never been allowed to have any guns.

[MADem]

134. "It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt."

Not to make light of your situation--that was a tough upbringing and a difficult life for you and your poor mother, who didn't deserve that shit.

I agree with you. He didn't need any damn guns.

I also don't think that gun ownership is a "right" and everyone should have them on demand--but try selling that POV in this country. We don't let "everyone" drive, after all. We don't let "everyone" practice surgery. Hell, we don't let "everyone" own a dog or a cat without getting a license, either. And it's not just "the mentally ill" who should get a finger pointed at them; it's drunks, people who are drugged to their gills, it's people with hot-tempers and nasty, confrontational attitudes, it's people who are lazy and sloppy and inattentive; they don't have a "right" to get stupid or clumsy or exercise poor judgment and kill people. How to sort 'em out without violating medical privacy, though? That's the conundrum. And because of that, nothing will be done. There will be a lot of talking, and nothing will come of it. Until the next time some asshole with a gun kills a dozen or more people for no good reason. And then there will be more talking. And nothing will come of it. Lather, rinse, repeat.

But, like I said, this culture is ingrained with the whole "guns are a right" POV, when what ought to be "rights" are decent educations, access to health care, a healthy breakfast for growing children, safe streets, and warm homes in winter.

[JoePhilly]

182. I think you should have to obtain, and maintain, and renew, a license to own a gun.

I'd set the time period for renewal at 5 years.

And I'd place different guns in different classes, kind of like we do with cars, trucks, and industrial vehicles.

There should be some hoops all gun owners must jump through to prove proficiency on a regular basis.

I think most rational people would be fine with such a system. A person who really understands guns doesn't want "just anyone" running around armed.

The folks who are against any such system are the ones who probably know they could never maintain a license ... sooner or later they'd get the privilege revoked.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. If this is in reference to having guns

No I do not want somebody with a diagnosed mental illness that could lead to suicide or murder to have access to those weapons.

And pretty delicate flowers can continue to scream, but we do need background checks that do work.

[dionysus]

25. the vast majority of mental illnesses do not make one predisposed to violence.

for example, grandiose delusions, persecutory delusions, and megalomania, do not predispose an individual to violent acts.

[zappaman]

35. !!!

[VanillaRhapsody]

74. BUT PTSD does...mostly suicides though....and we suddenly have ALOT more PTSD's

living among us...

By the way...this is the exact conversation had with my therapist today....

[dionysus]

80. correct. however, it's highly wrong to treat all mental illnesses as the same.

of course you wouldn't want someone suffering from psychopathy toting guns around. if someone had the illness of dyslexia, or neurotic perfectionism, I doubt you draw a link to violent dispositions.

[VanillaRhapsody]

117. I understand...BUT the fact remains we suddenly have ALOT of PTSD

and why we have lost more soldiers to suicide than we did to the war itself....THAT is how terrible it is...

[DebJ]

122. The problem here is WAR. n/t

[VanillaRhapsody]

123. Yes!

10 years of war...has consequences for us all actually. Because people who are damaged by that kind of trauma have to come back home and live among us....as we can see...some are not able to handle the transition....some go undiagnosed and then snap one day....sometimes they take other people with them...

But there are payments to be made to the injured...so we require a "lengthy diagnosis process" for men returning from war....and then some are surprised that so many commit suicide.

[DebJ]

125. If I was ever in the military (which would only happen by force), I'd likely commit suicide too.

I understand the reason and need for a military (which is not the same thing as what the military is often used for),
but if I had to kill or be killed, I'd lose my mind. I just couldn't do it, and still feel 'human' afterwards.

ON EDIT: We have always treated our soldiers like shit. Started with the Revolution.

[VanillaRhapsody]

130. What you just described is what people who suffer from PTSD feel....

because they HAVE gone to that level of fear...they have felt that level of Adrenaline and Cortisol coursing through there bodies....for some extended period....which leaves your brain always physically capable of going back to that level of fear when under the right conditions of stress...caused by any kind of trigger that is relative to what that person experienced...for real Life or Death kind of fear...which often also leads to anxiety and depression.

[X_Digger]

105. Lol..

[maddezmom]

150. ...

[Mnemosyne]

32. As someone that has suffered from severe mental illness since childhood, I agree with you, Nadin

When I inherited some rifles from my step-father, I couldn't sell them fast enough. I am a danger to myself when in the depths of the darkness.

My ex used to keep a loaded black powder pistol around, though I asked him not to, and when the darkness would hit I would obsess over it. I was terrified.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. You understand and I understand

we are talking of a very specific series of mental conditions. This does not apply to all.

I am glad you no longer have access to those though. And {{{{hugs}}}} It is a hard path to walk at times. (And no, I do not, but I have had family with severe depression)

[Mnemosyne]

53. I know too many people with untreated anger issues and I hate knowing they own guns.

They are time bombs, imo, and hopefully the straw never reaches the camels back.

Thanks Nadin.

[Eleanors38]

133. This "delicate flower" thing: What does the metaphor mean to you?

It has a stereotypical quality suggesting effeminate traits. You seem to use it negatively, so what purpose does the metaphor serve?

[nadinbrzezinski]

164. Look up modern world and that phrase

Use the google

[Eleanors38]

165. Well, I found the meaning Psychology Today has...

when googling the term. You might want to take a look at it; at best, the expression seems misplaced.

[nadinbrzezinski]

166. I told you precisely where to look

And now the phrase has entered the category of slang. And when it comes to this subject, t applies

Have an excellent day, or not, I really don't give two shits anymore if people here do.

[Eleanors38]

167. I got that drift.

[liberal_at_heart]

181. that was uncalled for nadinbrzeezinski.

[nadinbrzezinski]

183. Pointing out that some people who happen to have a diagnosis

should not have guns is not uncalled for. It is reality. It is a small group, not larger than the general population, but if you are a danger to yourself or others, or both...sorry

[hollysmom]

12. personally I believed everyone has one disability or another

I think most mental illness is not diagnosed, how else do you explain people like Michelle Bachman?
I have ADHD - supposedly, so do a lot of my younger relatives. Seems to run in our family.

I don't know who was telling you that you can not be trusted, but get a second opinion. No one wants to deal with people who see no solution. Take care and hold on.

[hedgehog]

57. I don't think Michelle Bachmann is mentally ill -

she has enough money that she can ignore reality and make up her own facts, but that is a different thing. Her world view is a matter of choice. Most of us with mental illness are dealing with a world view forced upon us by a malfunctioning brain. I am not worried about someone with schizophrenia shooting people; the schizophrenics I've encountered are far more harmful to themselves than to society. I doubt anyone in a manic episode would be a danger either. However - suicide is a known hazard for anyone with depression

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/805459-overview

Allowing anyone with serious depression to have access to firearms is irresponsible to say the least. Again, I don't think depressives present a hazard to anyone but themselves.

[hollysmom]

59. Well I agree about arms, but

people who have no diagnosis but have bad attitudes also need to be denied - you don't need an angry person out there with a gun.

When I say everyone has some disability, I am not trying to put down people with serious diagnosis. I usually admire people who can function with their mind working against them like my nephew who's mind is running in 15 different directions while he is talking to you. I meant it more as no one is perfect and people with mental disabilities should not be excluded from most things where it does not matter. That is why I found it interesting that one business found that people with Aspergers functioned well in their environment.

[Laffy Kat]

111. Have you seen her eyes, hedgehog?

I'm not trying to be funny. There is truly a delusional affectation about her.

[DebJ]

121. I don't think your assumption about a manic state is correct.

Both in general, and specifically because of my adult son. Angry manic is incredibly dangerous.
Fortunately, in all these years, last year was the only year that I saw him that way, so bad, quite
often for the past year (we got him off a med they had him on and that seems to have solved it...
IF it didn't permanently make him have this tendency.)

There is a happy manic, where the person just feels good about himself/herself, King of the World,
spending money like there is a million dollars coming in tomorrow. But angry manic is another
beast altogether. It is terrifying.

[hedgehog]

168. Thank you for telling me about this! All i've ever read about are the happy manics.

Blessings on you for facing this problem every day!

[aikoaiko]

13. The issue has to do with danger to self or others due to mental illness and not..

...merely mental illness. There are lots of folks who have an illness but are not a danger to self or others. But some are.

[BainsBane]

16. and lots of folks who aren't mentally ill are a danger

[aikoaiko]

33. True, but most of the high death count sprees seem to involve significant mental instability.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

43. Like Bush Jr?

What would you diagnose him with?

[aikoaiko]

47. Cheneyitis

[BainsBane]

44. statistically, people with mental illness are LESS likely to commit violent crimes

and more likely to be victims. The greatest correlation with violent crime is with use of alcohol and recreational drugs. Should we ban everyone who drinks from owning guns?

[aikoaiko]

49. I'm OK with shooting while intoxicated laws.

[BainsBane]

204. To follow your logic

or lack thereof, that people with mental illness should have their second amendment rights revoked, empirical evidence suggests anyone who partakes of alcohol or recreation drugs would be better candidates to be prohibited from owning firearms. There is no empirical evidence to support your determination that the mentally ill should not be allowed to own guns.

[gopiscrap]

203. Welcome to DU

[dembotoz]

18. depends on the data base doesn't it

are you disabled--ssi is a database--you would want to be in there

gun restrictions would really depend on the illness i would think.

I would HOPE you find du to be a place with people who care.
sometimes it does not appear to be

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. A good database will not include all

that be a waste of time and resources.

It would include things like a history of depression, attempts at suicide, things like that.

[JI7]

19. so what do you suggest people do ? you don't think mental health evaluation

should be considered for those who want to buy a gun ?

[ForgoTheConsequence]

21. That's not the point.

Please re-read thread. Thanks.

[Fumesucker]

23. Perhaps only those certified as mentally perfect should be able to own a gun?

Personally I think being well adjusted to American society is a prime indicator of mental illness.

[JI7]

26. i don't think most people should have a gun and would support strict laws

that would just ban them overall.

[The Straight Story]

45. Which is why I wouldn't vote for you if you ran

Less than one percent with guns do bad things with them. But biases and stereotypes feed the fear - just like the rw does with muslims and others. We eschew that tactic and yet others turn right around and use it.

Whether hunting, sport shooting, home defense (from the elderly to the infirm to just about anyone), etc some people like to be allowed to own a gun.

You don't have to own one if you do not wish to.

Misusing one is a crime already. Most people obey those laws.

Some talk about how 'oh those people with guns live in fear!' and yet it seems like it is the people wanting to stop others from owning a gun are the ones living in fear.

Alaska has 58% gun ownership. Their gun murder rate is 2.7 per 100,000 people. DC has 3.6% gun ownership, murder rate via guns is 16.5 per 100,000.

One solution does not fit all.

[HuckleB]

103. You don't think people who want guns will avoid mental health treatment under such a system?

You don't think that people who have gotten treatment should have the same rights as others?

Hello?

[dionysus]

20. don't listen to the imbeciles who say medication and treatments don't work, they are fools. nt

[Fumesucker]

37. Or maybe they are people for whom medication and "treatment" didn't work?

The human mind is possibly the most complex thing we know of in the universe, to claim we fully understand it is beyond foolish.

[dionysus]

41. some individuals are resistant to treatment, like with any medical condition. but people have

Last edited Thu Apr 3, 2014, 05:29 PM - Edit history (1)

broadbrushed the whole notion of medication and treatment as bullshit.

we don't say cancer treatments as a whole are bullshit because some tumours are resistant to treatment.

[HuckleB]

104. No, we don't understand it well enough.

That's beside the point, however.

[jeff47]

22. I was diagnosed with depression.

Treatment was effective, and I pretty much no longer suffer from it.

If we are going to have easy access to guns, I should be in a database. Relapse is quite possible. There should be extra steps I have to take to get a gun. Just like someone who suffered from seizures has to take extra steps to get a driver's license.

I would far prefer to have much more limited access to guns, and no database. That isn't going to happen anytime soon.

That leaves the options of "do nothing" or "have a database". I'll take the latter, so that fewer innocent people die.

It isn't about me. Or you. It's about everyone.

[Mnemosyne]

36. The extra step sounds like a good idea, Jeff. nt

[ForgoTheConsequence]

24. This thread isn't about the debate in the other thread.

Please don't carry that debate over here. This thread is a reminder that we need to choose our words wisely and remember that people with mental illnesses are everywhere (including this board) and we need to be conscious of that. We're not all ticking time bombs.

[truedelphi]

46. And it is important to reflect on the fact that

One) Few police departments carefully screen their gun carrying officers. When you realize how many cops out their are guilty of beating their wives, or even killing them, the lack of screening of police should become mandatory. But it will take the citizens to demand this accountability. Peterson of the Chicago area, Bolingbrook police force, who killed two of his wives, comes to mind as I post this. I encountered Peterson back in early eighties, when he refused to take a complaint against my neighbor wh beat his daughter, once even inflicting a broken arm on the eight year old. "Children need discipline - it is a parents' right," Peterson told me.)

Two) In many places in the USA, even here in "liberal" California, being mentally ill means that should some one of your neighbors ask the cops to do a "welfare check" on you, you can be killed as a result of that fellow citizen asking for help on your behalf.

So it is a fact that mentally ill people are more likely to be gunned down by cops, who are "helping us" by doing that. (One DU'er told me that cops have the right to shoot a mentally ill person causing a disturbance but only inside their own home, because otherwise, should they sit around waiting for the person to calm down,their schedule would get messed up!)

Three) In this society, the FBI and DEA are targeting our young people who have noticeable mental challenges such as Aspergers'. Rolling Stone did an article on the family in Riverside area, where their son finally thought he was getting a friend. One of his first friends ever! All this teen had to do to keep the friendship alive was procure about $ 20 worth of pot. Imagine how terrified this teenager must have been, when he was busted several months later for that entrapment!

Not only does the DEa and DOJ do such nefarious shit, but the FBI entraps bi-polar young people by asking for their help in a "shopping trip." Too bad if the mentally challenged young adult doesn't realize that the stuff they are being asked to buy at Home Depot could be used in a bomb. too bad, and the headlines let us all know that once again, our FBI has kept us safe from another terrorist plot!

[DebJ]

124. Good grief.

First, you ARE correct about police treatment of those with neurobiological brain disorders (I refuse now to say 'mental' illness because that tag has the connotation that it is a choice, rather than a physical issue). Wasn't it in Arizona yesterday the police shot, then shot again with rubber bullets, then allowed a dog to chew up the dead or dying man's leg? Those situations infuriate me to the point of exploding. I'm still angry about a hostage situation in Baltimore Co Maryland where they pumped like 40 bullets in an unconscious man who suffered from this horrible horrible disability.

There definitely needs to be training for police on how to handle situations with the mentally ill.

The set up stuff you talk about ... so, like, the DEA can't find any people actually doing drugs, so they have to make someone who is not doing them, do that? Please tell me of a US city where one who wants drugs cannot find them within a very short period of time.
I have a close relative who works for the DEA, and their focus is dealers, not users. And the only reason they bother with smaller dealers, when they do bother, is to get that dealer to flip on the bigger dealer.

FYI, I have a son tormented with bipolar disorder, and my husband has two nephews with severe drug problems who were diagnosed only as adults with bipolar, after they were already on heroin etc to self-medicate for many, many years...and only AFTER multiple imprisonments. Their mothers, my sisters-in-law, party with me every time a filthy big dealer goes down. The big guys don't do drugs, you know...leeching scum promoting hell on earth for millions while they laugh all the way to the bank. I don't believe in hell, but this is one class of people who makes me wish there was a hell. And I celebrate whenever the DEA puts one of them in the tank.

I am eternally grateful that my son was diagnosed when he was too young to be getting involved with crack and heroin and all the other horrible, horrible substances that have destroyed my nephews lives, hopes, dreams, and health.

It is the LOCAL police who screw around with the users (who need medically-superivised treatment, not jail). And they do it for a lot of reasons like bigotry and other butthole reasons. DEA doesn't have time to screw with that, nor do they need to. DEA agents are required to make regular purchases from street dealers themselves...they don't need to hoodwink someone into doing that.

[truedelphi]

200. My sympathy to you for

The energy required of you and for your enduring the lack of societal support you encounter with your son's medical problem.

Here is a link to a post over at DailyKos, and this person's efforts telling the story on the internets then resulted in having a Rolling Stone reporter involved:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/01/03/1266817/-Cops-Who-Entrapped-Our-Autistic-Son-Entrap-and-Arrest-Disabled-Kid-for-3-Vicodin-Pill

BTW, those of us who no longer eat wheat end up being educated, by all the books relatives send us, as to how often an allergen such as wheat takes over the life of someone like your son. Such an allergy exacerbates if not actually causing the bi polar syndrome. Wheat grown in the USA now has such a high formaldehyde concentration, as almost all wheat is heavily sprayed with RoundUp. Such RoundUp sprayed wheat is also contaminated with fungal growths and molds.

If you can switch your son to a non gluten diet (Which also means no "regular" soy sauce" no dextrose, and usually very few bottled canned or food in boxes) it might make a difference. By getting away from prepared foods, you also eliminate MSG, which is now in about 90% of all prepared foods. MSG causes massive depression and can also make people bi polar worse.

If your child still lives in home, that is one route to look into. And often the "allergy tests" done by medical professionals use a high grade, non-RoundUp sprayed wheat, so a person can be told that wheat is not a problem for them. (If the person truly suffers from celiac disease, they will perhaps find out through medical testing.) But if formaldehyde, mold and fungal materials set the individual off, they won't find that out from being tested in a medical office.

My husband saw what an increase in my energy came about from my being sensitive to America's new wheat, and going all "No on wheat!". And although he didn't really have the sensitivity I have, he was so impressed that he embraced a non-wheat diet within 14 days of my being on it. We now have awesome recipes for brownies, bread, pizza dough etc. And we both can occasionally have sour dough bread, which is usually of a higher quality and lacks the pervasive gluten found in normal bread.

[DebJ]

201. Thank you for your kind words, but

we have no history of gluten allergies in our family. He was tested thoroughly for allergies and many other
things like thyroid issues over many years. The problem isn't wheat, just as it is not for 90 percent or more of people in
the world population. Bipolar disorder existed long before GMO wheat. Bipolar runs in my family, going waaayyy back before
RoundUp or GMO foods or anything else. There were great-grand uncles who they just locked up and threw away the key, and other odd family tales from many generations back that point to bipolar genes in the family line. He has no symptoms of celiac disease or gluten allergies: "Symptoms include bloating, abdominal discomfort or pain, diarrhea, muscular disturbances and bone or joint pain." And he never had any of theses symptoms. Nothing even close. And he is 32 years old and does not live with me.

I have no doubt but that many people might see an energy change if they stop eating wheat, but not for reasons of
gluten allergy/celiac disease alone. We are a nation of carboholics, headed for massive diabetes and kidney failures.
Living off so many carbs will screw up your energy. So does the excessive sodium ingested in everything, and the majority
of sodium ingested is bread. We screw up our diets a million different ways. But that does not change the fact that some
people are born with brains wired differently. There are some evolutionary advantages to having 10 percent of the population
wired this way: ferocious soldiers, and unfortunately people with bipolar also tend to have a great many sexual partners, so over
the centuries, the genes got spread around.

Thanks for posting the link that proves my point: the problem is LOCAL police and officials, NOT the DEA.

[petronius]

28. Thank you for the post. The 'gun' topic interests me and I read most

of the threads; FWIW, posts like yours and others have been valuable in adding nuance, moderation, and depth to the guns/mental illness discussion (they have certainly expanded my understanding). I know these threads often include something hurtful and I'm sorry if my posts occasionally cross that line, but perspectives like the OP are beneficial and I'm grateful for them...

[politicat]

48. Me, too.

I have situational anxiety, mild PTSD (thanks to an abusive childhood) and Seasonal Affective Disorder.

All three are managed well with medication and therapy (when needed) and I have never been hospitalized, have never had any interaction with the law due to my illness, and I'm perfectly functional. My very worst interaction with the legal system is that I am responsible for my grandmother (as her Power of Attorney) and I have had one speeding ticket and a traffic ticket for a minor fender bender in my almost 40 years.

I have no interest in owning a gun -- I'm one of those awful people who think nobody should have them, including the cops -- but right now, I can totally pass a background check. In fact, I have above secret clearance. And yes, I disclosed my mental injuries (I am not ill -- my condition is the result of scars inflicted upon me) to get my clearance. I am trusted with sensitive information. I can also be trusted with a car, a credit card and a weapon if I choose to get a license and register it. I am a perfectly functional, capable citizen with all of the same rights and responsibilities.

I also live in a place where it's actually sensible to own at least a shotgun. We do get hungry, grumpy spring bears coming down from the mountains for the tasty, tasty garbage and pets. We have big cats who aren't much scared of humans. We have elk, and rutting males can be very aggressive. We have coyotes. Sometimes, they're not just in the yard, but in the house or garage. They CAN go through drywall walls. For my neighborhood, having a firearm and knowing how to use it is a very good idea.

My mental injury has no bearing on my rights as a citizen, nor do the mental injuries of my clients. We are not criminals who have been adjudicated guilty. If society wants to prevent us from exercising our full civil rights, then society must state it. Tell us that we are second-class citizens.

And expect us to sue, protest and revolt. Society's undiagnosed paranoia about us cannot be cured at the expense of our civil rights.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

52. Thank you for sharing!

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. Let me add a qualifier and ask you a serious question

what you have is not what would be considered in the grocery list of... potential harm to oneself or others.

These are a very specific category. You could and you should pass a background check. You do not pose a threat, to either yourself or others.

I know of a young man who has tried to commit suicide once, and who is moderately to severely depressed. For a slew of reasons, including the depression, he refuses to go see a doctor. Should he have access to a weapon?

These are the people that should be excluded by the way. And these are the people who should be on that database.

But by your logic, due to societal paranoia, this young man should have access. It makes zero sense by the way.

[politicat]

118. Assessing a threat to self or others is difficult and not static.

I'm also a research psychologist, so I have some experience in assessing the threat. You're asking a question that cannot be answered definitively yes or no in 99% of cases as a permanent categorization. People who are a threat to themselves today may not be one in six months; six months from now, someone who is fine today may not still be. We have few good means to assess potential threats and (as many laws around criminal justice prove) practically no means of expunging someone who deserves to be no longer considered a threat. Laws have to be written to apply specifically, and laws that have grey area wiggle room are the laws that get abused. If you want a law that excessively burdens a specific class of people, or violates their medical privacy rights for a greater social good, you have to have extremely specific, binary parameters. Yes or no, always or never. (Which is why we can quarantine someone who has an active measles infection, but cannot sterilize against their will someone who carries the Huntington's allele. Autonomy wins, except in the case of immediate, quantifiable, credible threat.) The law and the data do not have judgement, which is why our current method of restraining individuals with mental conditions requires therapists to go before a judge to present a case for restriction of rights. This is how it should be, because it requires many eyes and specific, individual cases. Violating a person's autonomy should always be the exception, never the policy.

For your specific instance... People like him are why people like me have the power to go before a judge and request a temporary hold, an involuntary commitment, and why hospitals can get psych holds. Are these tools well used? No. Do we have a robust mental health system? Nope. But your acquaintance is legally an adult, of legally sound mind, and (I assume) fully capable of passing the background checks we have in place. It sucks, but the law applies to everyone equally. (Or should.) if you believe him to be a grave, imminent threat to himself or others, it's time to call in the law and the social workers. Otherwise... Well, even the mentally injured and ill have the right to govern their lives, including the right to end their lives. I'm also going to say something that is highly controversial. While your acquaintance doesn't appear to have given psychotherapy and psychopharmacology a chance to work on him, sometimes even our best efforts to ameliorate severe depression doesn't work. Most people who have never been severely depressed have no idea how truly painful and wretched it is. As with any intractable disorder, sometimes choosing to end the suffering is the only rational action. Psych holds and interventions are how we as a society go about verifying the difference between treatable and intractable depression. Society's right to extend your acquaintance's life against his will is limited and for exceptionally good reasons.

Anything society does to stigmatize mental illness and injury keeps people like your acquaintance out of my client chair, which means the stigmatization makes their problems worse and much more likely to be devastating before treatment can even begin. Think about it in terms of a virus. Imagine that getting the flu was a sign of moral failing and weakness. Imagine you could be fired for even saying you had the flu once. People might refuse to date or marry you if they knew you had the flu, and some churches say flu patients are possessed or damned. Now, one day you wake up coughing, shivering, and feeling like every atom in your body is on fire. Would you go to the doctor for Tamiflu? That is what your friend is dealing with. People do get fired for being depressed, they do get told it is a moral failing, and there are groups out there that believe meds are evil. If your friend is functional enough to navigate the world, I don't blame him for not wanting to see one of my colleagues. (I give him credit for paying attention.) It's a huge risk. Now add in your notion of depriving him of a constitutional right. What's next? His right to vote, since he obviously can't make rational decisions? Or his right to his own money? Or to marry or keep his gonads intact? I'm not giving you hyperbole -- these are all things that people with mental illness and injury have endured in the last 50 years. Not to mention poverty, homelessness, murder by cop, discrimination and violation of our rights and autonomy. Oh, and being suspected of malice and targeted so very often.

There are legitimate reasons for people to own weapons -- protection from nature or a dangerous relative or acquaintance, game hunting, even a planned shuffling off of the mortal coil. Having cancer or the flu or a broken leg does not deprive someone of the right to have a weapon, nor does a physical illness or injury magically insulate them from bears in the garage, stalkers or needing to fill the freezer with venison. Why should a problem with the software be treated differently than a hardware problem?

Most people with depression are at some point a threat to themselves because suicidal ideation is the big symptom that sends them to a therapist. We absolutely do NOT want to keep people out of the therapist's office when they're in that state, and threatening their rights would be an impediment to getting the treatment they need. Just on the principle of "Don't make my difficult job harder for no reason," I oppose putting mental health records in public domain. We therapists DO have tools for preventing a client's self or other or place harm -- 72 hour observation holds, involuntary commitment, and an exception to the confidentiality laws that allow us to report specific, credible threats on persons or places.

Most people in abusive or dangerous situations that end up with ATSD/PTSD are at some point a threat to themselves or others because they're afraid. Many people in that latter category have real, founded fears for their own safety, and while I don't think a handgun is the answer (since introducing one to a bad situation usually doesn't end well), sometimes they become tools of balance -- the abuser being somewhat less likely to come after the abused if both parties know that both parties are armed and competent. I do support the current laws that prevent parties with domestic violence convictions and restraining orders from purchasing weapons; I support a deeper interpretation that would have them deprived of their previously purchased weapons because they have proved they are a danger to self or others, but for someone who has escaped an abusive relationship and has considered the fact that the abuser might come after zir, to be placed on a mental health list because zie is in fear for zir life is unacceptable.

I also cannot support anything permanent without a judge's order. Depression at 19 should not be a permanent block. And it's not like mental illnesses and injuries don't develop in adulthood. Further, people's life conditions change, and the right to cease living is still a right. Not all suicides are heat of the moment. Some people who take their own lives have excellent reasons -- a terminal, painful, expensive illness; intractable pain, incurable degenerative conditions. Until we become a civilized country that allows people to choose to end their own lives painlessly, suicide by handgun will remain one of the most certain ways. Denying the right to a final exit to a 55 year old with pancreatic cancer because zie had a bad breakup thirty years ago is entirely unreasonable.

The tl;dr is that I don't think the law can be written fairly and we already have tools in place to address imminent threat exceptions. Should those exceptions be refined and expanded? Yes, but they should remain exceptions, not turned into standard operating process. If you don't want guns in the hands of people with mental illness, then get the guns out of the hands of everyone. (I support this idea.) We can't deny civil rights on the basis of gender (people used to believe women were unable to regulate their emotions, after all), race (most gun control laws exist BECAUSE white people got scared of the idea of minorities having guns), or religion (and don't try to tell me that the Fundy-gelical batshit wing of the Tea Party wouldn't try to make it illegal for pagans and Muslims to own weapons). We don't deny the right to vote based on infirmity or illness. If the law is the law, it must apply to everyone equally -- to the schizophrenic art historian in lower Manhattan and the bipolar homesteader in Montana who has a bear problem and the dysthemic suburbanite who enjoys target shooting.

Go after the guns, not the people.

Oh, and PS: you assume I wouldn't be considered a threat to myself or others. I was a threat to myself in that I did have self-destructive ideation. There was a time when it looked like I would never escape my abuser. I considered killing myself to deny the bastard the satisfaction of doing it zir self. Radical autonomy -- it comes in many flavors. I would also classify myself as a threat to my abuser -- if I'd gotten a clear chance, there was a time when zie would have been in grave danger. (Heck, if zie showed up on my porch, zie would be in violation of a permanent restraining order, so the cops would be called, and we've got some trigger-happy cowboys.) Fortunately for me, circumstances changed, I escaped, and got the legal system to work. I was lucky -- not everyone gets out. But those thoughts are in my files. Under your law, it doesn't matter that I had those thoughts two decades ago. My thought-crime would still remove my rights as a citizen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. No it is not, but right now he should not

And that is the point I made.

The rest, in some ways our society sucks, mental health even more.

But that is a very long discussion I fear.

[politicat]

171. And again, if he's a danger, I strongly suggest contacting an adult social worker.

Our system isn't great, but it's the one we have.

I want people in treatment -- it works a hell of a lot better than not being in treatment. And I know resistant to treatment -- I started in public mental health, where nobody wants to be there. Yes, it's tough, and the early phases of treatment suck -- it feels like you're getting worse instead of better. We with mental injuries and illnesses have good reasons to be skeptical of the system as it exists because for the most part, our system is only good for emergency treatment, not preventative and curative care.

But threatening our citizenship and rights doesn't help. We need people like you to recognize that while we may need assistance, we still captain our own souls.

And yes, it's a long conversation, one that has been too long in coming and has considerable dark history to be uncovered. At least we're having it.

I respect your position and I appreciate the empathy you bring.

[DebJ]

127. THIS IS THE BEST POST I HAVE READ ON DU IN MY 10.5 YEARS HERE !!!!!!!!!

Wow. I am just totally, completely blown away by the excellence of your writing, by the points you bring up,
the clarity, the truth.

I just copied it into my word processor so I will always have it.

Thank you so very, very much!

[politicat]

169. Awwww..

Thanks.

Oi, it needs editing, though -- parentheticals, compound-complex sentences, clauses off their leashes. End of day writing tends to get a bit violet 'round these parts. I should introduce you to my fiction.

Advocacy is part of my day job. That's just Autonomy 101. It's good for other mental injury and illness patients to be the advocates and to be publicly out.

[F4lconF16]

138. Thank you...

That was beautiful...

[politicat]

170. Thanks!

[maddezmom]

149. Excellent post

[LittleBlue]

50. K&R

Thanks for speaking out.

[Holly_Hobby]

55. The problem isn't mental illness, it's WAR n/t

[MADem]

56. Don't take it personally, as a failing. It's a condition, and it locks you out of certain things.

Just like the condition of blindness locks a person out of driving. Just like the condition of deafness prevents a person from being a piano tuner or an opera singer.

It doesn't make them "bad," or "evil" or "wrong." It just is what it is.

There will come a day, who knows when, when the blind will be made to see and the deaf to hear, and those with chemical imbalances in the brain will have those issues resolved in a permanent fashion, without having to rely on medications with sometimes unsatisfactory side effects, resulting in non-compliance by some, to resolve those imbalances. Probably won't happen next week, but ... one day.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

58. Why should it?

I don't have violent impulses. I get scared around too many people and avoid certain situations out of fear. I've never wanted to kill or hurt anyone.

[MADem]

61. People who are scared and fearful sometimes react out of those impulses, not out of violent ones.

Not everyone who picks up a gun and shoots it is violent, you know. Most self-defense arguments have as a centerpiece "fear" or being afraid of the person they shot. They're not, as we know, always successful, at least outside of Florida.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

62. And people who drink sometimes beat their wives.

My "fear" shows itself by sweating and shaking, never violence. You're speaking prejudiced nonsense right now.

And pointing a gun at someone and shooting them is by definition, violence.

[MADem]

69. If you think, for half a second, I'm going to mitigate "spouse beating," you've got another "think"

a-comin'!

People who sweat and shake, and who have a weapon close to hand, just might pick up that weapon and aim it at the object of their trepidation. They might not do it with an intent to be "violent," but they might do it out of a sense of fear.

As I've said, that is the centerpiece of many a self-defense courtroom argument.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

71. People who drink might get in their car and kill someone.

Let's ban alcohol.


Show me a direct link between sweating and shaking and a proclivity towards violence. Your whole premise is based on a lack of understanding and a prejudiced toward mental illness. Mental illness doesn't always equal violent.



"Might" doesn't mean anything. Back it up with statistics.

[MADem]

77. I am not going to answer this question because you are hyperposting to my one reply.

You can organize your thoughts, or not, but I'm not going to respond to your bifurcated replies. I will say you're not helping your case.

[classykaren]

96. You are a very nasty person

[MADem]

97. Your opinion means nothing to me--I don't know you at all. nt

[classykaren]

142. You mean nothing to me bully

[MADem]

143. More name calling--real "classy," there, "karen."

[ForgoTheConsequence]

72. Fear doesn't equal mental illness.

Plenty of people using self defense arguments don't have a diagnosed mental illness.



Should fear itself be diagnosed as a mental illness? You're way out of line.

[MADem]

76. I never said it did. I get the strong impression you're trying to pull a circular argument with me.

Look, if you're in a situation where there's a law you don't like, get off your ass and work to get that law repealed. If the law hasn't been implemented yet, work to derail it, but do use better arguments than the ones you are pulling out, here. Faux accusations of bias never go over well.

I'm not a fan of guns, myself--I think we'd all be better off without them. Frankly, I could make the argument that anyone who argues that they have the "right" to a weapon that fires metal into people and kills them is "way out of line," but I'd rather not go there in this forum.

I also think you pulled a bit of a DU Shitty, dragging a Gungeon topic into GD.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

82. More nonsense.

I think you've talked yourself into a corner. My problem is people like you who know jack about mental illness. I'm not a gun fan, but I'm also not a fan of people like you who want to lump everyone with a diagnosed mental illness in together.

By your own words you think we "might" be dangerous or "might" act out violently. This just isn't true.



By your own logic anyone who has ever been fearful is a threat, and you're basing this argument on the fact that some asshole like Zimmerman got off because he said he was "scared", this is completely nonsensical.

[MADem]

87. No, you've talked YOUR self into a corner, and you're being rude and nasty as well.

No gun for you--and take this crap back to the gungeon where it belongs.

Nice day....run along and have one, and take your "nonsense" with you.

[DebJ]

132. Forgo, this DUer is PRECISELY the type of person who needs people like you who have the courage to

speak up. Thank you.

Since my son's diagnosis, I have often brought up the topic of neurobiological brain disorders (NBD) and society's treatment of
people with such diagnosis. ... but only to people who do not interact with my son, except for close family and friends, so that he does not pay the terrible prices extracted by so many in our society. My son and I live many miles away from each other these days, so I can and do speak freely with most people I interact with these days. Quite often they are extremely shocked when I initiate the topic and openly discuss it, at as great a length as they will allow. You see, I am supposed to feel ashamed and embarrassed. My son is supposed to feel ashamed and embarrassed. Just like when I was a child, people in wheelchairs or otherwise disabled were considered an embarrassment, unless perhaps they were vets. And I say perhaps. The more I speak up, the less uncomfortable people become with the topic, and the less uncomfortable with their own ignorance, and the more interested and educated they become. And the less fearful, and vengeful, and bigoted.

This is the battle we must fight, for decades to come. Decades of unnecessary hell inflicted upon those with NBDs who, by the very nature of NBDs, often find themselves in an unjustified hell. Disgusting. Ignorant. Uncivil. Ridiculous. Like every civil rights fight throughout the ages, but this will be the hardest battle ever, the longest battle, the nastiest one of all. And it will only be won with people who speak up. And it will not be won with people whose attitudes mirror MADems. "Don't get educated, just get loud." And disrespectful. Succumb to your fear and shout and penalize as many as you can to make YOURSELF feel better. This is the attitude that means those who know better must continue to speak up, no matter the intolerance and the vehemence and fear that is exemplified by the other party. It's a hard thing to do, knowing that whatever progress you make will only be inches of progress when millions of miles of progress must be achieved.

This country's justice system was predicated on the notion that as a society, we are better off to allow a guilty man to go free now and again, rather than imprison the innocent. But our society can't as yet apply that same principle to those with an NBD.... no, just 'guilty' is all they scream. And, most of all, they can't understand that a diagnosis of an NBD does not mean a certain black-and-white status quo. Saying someone has an NBD (that we improperly call 'mental' illness) is like saying someone is blonde... white blonde? dirty blonde? reddish blonde? How many shades of 'blonde' are there? Bipolar is a SPECTRUM. There is such an enormous difference in the impact upon one individual versus another it is staggering to contemplate.

Once again, I must say thank you Barack for the brain research project. We may never get the knowledge we need, because for sure there are many factors that cause such things, but at least, there is a beginning. Science and logic will be applied, instead of a medieval fear.

[MADem]

139. How lovely of you to paint me with your broad brush when you do not even know me.

That didn't stop you from mouthing off, though and falsely characterizing me.

You have questions? ASK. Much better than skirting around the edges and prosecuting a whisper campaign.

[DebJ]

136. His topic wasn't 'Gungeon'. Other posters brought it there. They missed the entire point

of his post, or else decided to ignore it because the other topic is just too irresistible.

"I guess what I'm trying to say is this...please aware that you're not talking about people with mental illnesses in the abstract, many of us post here. We have feelings, we're not all mass murderers who you need to keep an eye on. We just happen to have an illness (that you can't see), just like any other diagnosed illness.
“There are many things that can only be seen through eyes that have cried” - Oscar A. Romero "

[MADem]

137. I think I've made it clear (read through this thread) that I don't regard people

with mental illnesses in the abstract.

It's not just about "mass murderers," either. It's about people taking the lives of loved ones or their own lives while the balance of their mind is disturbed.

And one doesn't have to be "mentally ill" to do this--one can be drunk or on drugs, or just be so pissed off they can't think straight. Or be stupid. Or have pisspoor judgment. Or be clumsy and shoot themselves or others.

But see, I don't think gun ownership is a "right," any more than I think driving a car is a "right." So that puts me out of step with the gungeoneers from the get go.

[VanillaRhapsody]

78. PTSD puts you at a higher risk of suicide than the general population....

you might not shoot others....

[ForgoTheConsequence]

83. Not all mental illness is PTSD.

...

[HuckleB]

102. Exactly. Not even close.

[VanillaRhapsody]

116. Not at all...

but we have a MUCH higher rate of it these days don't we? We will be living with the aftermath of a 10 yr war for a long long time to come....

[HuckleB]

185. Nope. History is your friend. Learn it.

[VanillaRhapsody]

187. WTF does that even mean?

10 yrs of War....10 years...multiple multiple multiple tours of duty....and now they survive more....but have more traumatic brain injuries and Traumatic emotional injuries....

[HuckleB]

188. History is much longer than 10 years, which is why your posts are pointless.

[VanillaRhapsody]

189. Yes...History is longer than 10 yrs..

and YOUR point is?

[HuckleB]

190. Obvious.

[VanillaRhapsody]

115. I did not say that....

I HAVE PTSD...

[HuckleB]

191. Your post indicates otherwise.

Honesty is good.

[VanillaRhapsody]

192. Whatever...

you make no sense...word salad...

[HuckleB]

193. I make good sense. You don't like logic. I get it.

[VanillaRhapsody]

194. As a matter of fact I do like logic....

so much so that its part of what I do....I also like reality...

[HuckleB]

195. Alas, your claims are not supported by your posts.

[VanillaRhapsody]

199. Proof...

and I think someone has a hole in their sock...

[DebJ]

128. Scared and fearful does not equal the set of people with neurobiological brain disorders.

Racists are scared and fearful.

So are a lot of other hate-mongers.

[MADem]

129. Excuse me.

I was having a conversation with someone who stated that he had a "diagnosed mental illness" and who also stated that "My medication and treatment regimen doesn't work. "

Now what that has to do with racists, or hate-mongers, I have no idea. I'm sure that's a mystery only you can answer.

[DebJ]

135. The similarity is putting people in boxes that you have designed, and deciding that

you can deny them civil rights because of the boxes you have constructed.

The box you have constructed is that someone with a 'mental' illness who is fearful and whose treatment has not been effective is a danger to himself and to society, someone who should be feared, and therefore, controlled (or, as people who construct boxes prefer to think, 'protected'.)

[MADem]

140. I don't think gun ownership is a "civil right."

So....so much for your assertion that I'm constructing "boxes," whatever that means.

Let me tell you some things. I had a much loved aunt, whose husband went into deep depression after he had a heart attack; my cousin had to cut him down after he hanged himself in the basement. He's never been the same. I have a 2nd cousin, I walked in on his ass while he was stringing himself up. Had I been delayed a few moments, he would have been dead. He still thanks me. My dear mother's best friend's husband suffered from bipolar disorder, they called it manic-depression back in the day, he took a gun and shot himself at his desk. His young daughter found him and his brains scattered all over his expensively appointed study--she's still fucked up about that and it has been decades. I have an in-law who battles bipolar -- and I do mean battles. We go along fine for a year or two, then there's a bit of medical noncompliance, and I used to end up with extra kids for a bit. Fortunately they're grown now, so that bit is less of an issue.

It's not like this is an abstract issue to me.

So please-- don't talk to me about "boxes."

[HuckleB]

101. This is pure ignorance.

People with mental health diagnoses can get treatment and then they can do anything you can do.

Seriously, your post is absolutely ridiculous.

[MADem]

126. And people who are alcoholics never fall off the wagon. Get treatment! Problem solved!

I have a relative who struggles with a chemical imbalance and is occasionally non-compliant with medication. That relative, plus a gun, would be a nightmare waiting to happen. Fortunately, that branch of the family tree does not participate in the "gun culture" much if at all.

Don't play the "pure ignorance" card with me. I don't buy it. The one who is "purely ignorant" is the person who doesn't understand that attention to mental illness is a lifelong process, not a 'magic pill' endeavor. It can be managed in a straightforward way, but it requires attention by the person with the chemical imbalance as well as the attention of family and loved ones.

I don't have a strong view as to the "solution" for this matter, but I do think that if that Lanza kid hadn't had access to guns, a lot of little kids, and his mother, would be alive, and if that Joker clown in the movie theater hadn't been able to get his hands on a gun, a lot of lives would be spared. That's pretty self-evident.

[HuckleB]

186. Blah. Blah. Blah. Derp.

I get it. You don't understand humans.

That's not your fault. It's just reality.

But, if you are an honest human, you will cut the crap.

Sheesh!!!!

[ForgoTheConsequence]

64. I don't know.

But I think this is being debated in the other thread, ask there. This thread isn't a continuum of that debate.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

66. My apologies, I didn't know there were multiple threads

[ForgoTheConsequence]

67. No worries.

I just wanted to address a specific issue. It's a complicated subjected, but sometimes we forget when dealing with policy issues that our language and words can hurt and alienate.

[Skittles]

65. a lot of the stuff I hear suggested

would make a lot of people hesitate to get treatment - and that is not good

[Rex]

120. IKR!?

Not GDs finer moment, that's for sure.

[dilby]

68. National Databases for medical conditions are a terrible idea.

Would anyone support a national database of people who are HIV+?

It's your body and your choice, your health is between you and your doctor and no one else. If these rules apply to a woman's body then they apply to everyone's. Furthermore people would be less likely to seek treatment if they knew they were going to be thrown into a national database.

[Demo_Chris]

70. Rec!

[jwirr]

75. And many of us have loved ones who are mentally ill. BiPolar runs in my family. My brother who is

the one with the most severe case stays far away from guns as he knows that his moods could all too easily lead to suicide.

[Jackpine Radical]

81. There is no evidence whatsoever that "mental illness" in the aggregate

is in any way predictive of violence. The percentage of "mentally ill" people who commit violent offenses is roughly comparable to the percentage of the general population who commit such offenses.

Yes, certain mentally ill individuals can be dangerous. But there is no justification for some sort of blanket condemnation of the class.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. But... as I said above

those who can pose a danger to themselves or others, do not need a gun. (Though that can be said about everybody)

[lillypaddle]

86. K&R

It must be tough for you. I admire your honesty and hope your meds get straightened out.

[progressoid]

88. According the the NIH, 26% of us have some form of mental illness.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-numbers-count-mental-disorders-in-america/index.shtml

57 million of us should not be judged based on the actions of a few people.

And, no, I don't want a gun either.

[JoeyT]

89. K&R

I don't oppose a database of mentally ill people to prevent them from owning firearms. I oppose a database of mentally ill people period.

Even if we accept that the database could be checked to prevent mentally ill people from owning guns, how long do you reckon it would be before employers and landlords were allowed access to it? Demanding people be turned into untouchables because they have a condition that makes you uncomfortable is not a liberal value.

[LanternWaste]

93. I don't pretend to know enough about the entire spectrum of mental illnesses

I don't pretend to know enough about the entire spectrum of mental illnesses to have an opinion of any real substance.

However, that's me-- many others do indeed pretend to know enough to have an absolute and intractable opinion masquerading as a reality.

[idendoit]

94. Thank you for the post. You are to be commended.

I've been out of the mental health closet for a while now. For most that work in mental and behavioral health it is professional 'suicide' to disclose, my job description however requires it. Even the best diagnosticians are no better than chance at predicting who will commit an act of violence, that's why it seems to me the importance must be placed on the regulations restricting access to weapons of all kinds across the whole of society; especially handguns. I am multitudes more afraid of a drunk with a gun than someone managing their mental illness.

[bossy22]

175. why not just restrict alcohol?

I'm not talking about banning alcohol like prohibition, but possibly limiting the proof of alcohol that can be purchased in this country. Who needs a drink that is 140 proof?

[handmade34]

95. ...

http://vimeo.com/81369071

[Stellar]

98. K&R

I don't know why I feel like crying....

[dinger130]

99. A long, long discussion is needed in this country.

Ignorance abounds.

My son suffers from schizophrenia and my step daughter has severe bipolar disorder.

Psychiatric services in this country suck and I mean absolutely suck. I could write a book. Try finding a long term facility if you don't have a ton of money. Good luck. Thirty minutes a month with a mental health care provider doesn't get it. Volunteers of America was the closest place I could find for my son and that lasted six months.

Neither one is fixated on guns. They are fixated on how to feel better by any means necessary which in their mind means medication....any kind, anywhere and lots of caffeine fixes.

They are my family and I love them with all my heart and I am appalled at the lack of help that is out there.

Yes, a major discussion in this country concerning mental illness needs to take place including availability of mental health services and housing along with changing the mental health laws.

[Phlem]

106. K&R!

I hear you brother. We are the third person.



-p

[Stuart G]

107. Please explain this..."diagnosed mental illness"

Define exactly what this means...before we get into a discussion that people do not really understand or think they do.

Diagnosed by whom?
Any kind of "mental illness"
As kept in what data base, by whom, how, ,
And who will have access to this?...

Define it clearly, then argue about it..
..Do you even know what you are talking about???

[ForgoTheConsequence]

173. What?

This thread is about language and words and how they can offend. I'm not arguing semantics.



And yes I do know what I'm talking about as far as MY own experiences with mental illness go, I have a diagnosed mental illness in the form of a anxiety disorder. That's all you need to know.




Please re-read the thread and get a grip on the discussion, then come back (hopefully without the personal attacks!).

[Jefferson23]

108. I applaud your OP, the situation is worrisome...I do not want to see this evolve into

protections under HIPAA being compromised...and I think that is where they're headed.


K&R

[AtheistCrusader]

109. People with mental illnesses are statistically

far more likely to be the victims of violence, than the perpetrators.

And that is fucked. Something we must fix.

[xfundy]

114. This is true.

I, diagnosed depression/anxiety/panic, am a victim of emotional/mental abuse because I was trying to shield my father from my hateful "christian" sister's abuse/theft/terrorizing.

[Vashta Nerada]

112. People with severe PTSD, anger management problems, schizophrenia...

or any other severe mental illness like that should not be anywhere near a gun.

Period.

I get what you're saying. I suffer from severe depression and anxiety. However, I don't think those should disqualify someone from purchasing a gun.

[flamingdem]

131. I love this quote by Archbishop Romero

“There are many things that can only be seen through eyes that have cried” - Oscar A. Romero

I remember when he was killed, that inspired me to be an activist at the time. My best to you.

[Live and Learn]

146. A profound statement but not necessarily true.

There are a few that seem capable of empathizing and understanding without personal experience. Sadly, it seems they are really few.

Thanks for sharing his quote, I wasn't aware of his great contribution and sacrifice.

[Sunlei]

141. what medications are you on(that "didn't work") & what do you think about the side effects?

The Drug corps for many years didn't even want to list the side effects of medications, thousands, maybe millions of Americans take daily. Mainly the drugs the Drug Corp. advertises constantly on TV, 'ask your Doctor for some'.

Most? of these more serious mass shootings, seems like the shooters were on these medications.

I do not think most mental illnesses are the root cause of this current gun violence or any type of violence.

I think the problems are caused by the extensive lists of serious, medication side effects.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

172. I've tried a few ssri's and hated all of them.

The side effects weren't worth it. Now I take a low dose of a benzo as needed and carefully monitored by my doctor (I know their reputation and am cautious of addiction).

[Sunlei]

174. That is good you are carefull with those medications & paid attention to side effects.

IMO, even addiction to a medication that works and helps- is much better than todays popular RX drugs with such horrible side effects.

[Jasana]

144. I'm pretty sure I read the sickening thread that lead to this post.

There was a certain DUer who wasn't sure whether depressed people should be allowed to vote. It took all my willpower to keep my fingers from the keyboard and telling them exactly what I thought of them. I would have been banned. There is pure evil lurking around these boards.

I'm sorry you were made to feel bad enough to have to post this.

[darkangel218]

184. Hey there! Why would i even dignify you with a serious answer when your question

..was nothing but snark?

Give me a break.

[Jasana]

197. I did not ask you a question...

therefore there is no reason for you to dignify me with a serious answer. My comment was not snarking. It was 100% serious. My empathy is with the the person who wrote this OP.

[darkangel218]

198. And so is mine.

Just because I suggested that those who suffer of severe depression shouldnt have access to guns until they get better, it doesnt mean that I don't care. It'd just the opposite.

Have a nice day.

[Live and Learn]

145. IMHO everyone suffers from some kind of "mental illness"

at sometime during their life. Some conditions are chronic and some are fleeting. Some seek help, others don't. Most shootings are not committed by those with known illnesses and many are committed without any forethought.

How many shootings are perpetuated by rage or unjustified fear? Are these "mental illnesses" somehow justified because they are supposedly short lived?

Guns are dangerous in anyone's hands. Either, we should all be armed (an experiment already tried here during the wild west and deemed a failure) or very few should be and those that are should be strictly monitored.

[a la izquierda]

147. I understand you completely

I have had GAD since I was little, but was diagnosed at 20. I was just diagnosed with depression and a few other more minor things. The thing is, the doctor and I know the depression is temporary.

But there it will be, forever, in my medical records.

[Dorian Gray]

148. Thank you

for pointing that out.

[sendero]

153. A huge percentage of the population...

.... has been diagnosed with a mental illness. If you have ever been prescribed Prozac, Wellbutrin, Zoloft, Luvox, Lexapro, Paxil, Cymbalta, Effexor, Seroquel, Celexa, Depakote, Lithobid, or any of literally hundreds of other medications, you are one of them.

As far as I can tell, for this to be germane to a gun purchase you have to have been declared incompetent by a judge or been hospitalized. Or something like that.

In any event, any moron can get a gun in this country whether it is legal to do so or not, so I'm nothing less than amused at those who think passing more laws will do anything at all rather than give one a feeling of self-justified sanctimony.

[randome]

176. Is your illness blindness to the letter 'g'?

If so, you won't be able to buy a 'un' no matter what the law says.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[ForgoTheConsequence]

177. Thanks for pointing out the spelling mistake.

...

[IrishAyes]

178. Crucial OP

I hope things get better for you. It's been said that all humans have some degree of mental illness, only the severity differs.

And to show how awful even the medical community can sometimes be, I read the other day that certain professionals want to classify extreme creativity as a mental illness. What tangled webs we weave....

[liberal_at_heart]

180. The majority of the country has a mental illness sometime during their lifetime. Depression being

the main one. I have social anxiety disorder. I take Zoloft and am in cognitive behavioral therapy. My husband had a bout of PTSD a few years back. It was bad. He was close to harming himself but never once thought of harming anyone else. He is taking medication and is much better. The majority of people with depression, bipolar, and PTSD never harm themselves or anyone else but even the ones that do are far more likely to harm themselves than someone else. Thank you for your post. Those of us who suffer from mental illness need to speak up and give a human face to this all too often dehumanized and demonized illness.