What will the "revolution" look like when people have had enough?

[polichick]

More and more Americans are experiencing the effects of inequality as they work harder and longer, have less leisure time, opportunities and resources, and see a future that offers their children worsening climate crises accompanied by financial insecurity and scarcity.

The pot is boiling, and things like the latest SC ruling and recent U.N. climate change findings only turn up the heat.

As a citizen who has always believed that voting is a responsibility, I am horrified by the condition of our democracy and the direction of our nation. As someone who put in thousands of hours as a Dem activist from the first Earth Day until the election of 2012, I retain a glimmer of hope that a populist movement will arise within the party and set the nation back on course. But it's really as a student of social-cultural history that I find DU most interesting and worthwhile.

The posters I enjoy the most are the ones inclined to pull back and look at the big picture, to see beyond the parties and look at American culture and society at a place in history. I wonder how they imagine the "revolution" - or, rather, the beginnings of the revolution, since what happens next depends on those early days.

So, just for fun, how do you see it? (Please post other ideas too.)

32 votes, 3 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	The revolution began with Occupy Wall Street and continues.
	2 (6%)
	The revolution began with the 2008 Obama campaign and continues.
	0 (0%)
	The revolution began with the Tea Party and continues.
	0 (0%)
	A populist movement will arise within the Democratic Party.
	3 (9%)
	A populist movement will arise outside the Democratic Party.
	1 (3%)
	There will be no revolution - the U.S. will be plundered 'til there's nothing left.
	21 (66%)
	There will be violence from the right, targeting fellow citizens.
	4 (13%)
	There will be violence from the right, targeting the powers-that-be.
	0 (0%)
	There will be violence from the left, targeting fellow citizens.
	0 (0%)
	There will be violence from the left, targeting the powers-that-be.
	1 (3%)
	3 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[1000words]

1. If you are over 40, it's not happening in our lifetime

It'll be a slow burn

[Marr]

13. A few years ago, I would've agreed with you.

But Occupy Wall Street was a real eye opener for me. It seemed to come out of nowhere, and was suddenly huge. The crackdown against it was pretty effective, but still, I think that change here in the states, if it ever comes, will come from something like that. It'll be over before the the powers that be have decided on their talking points.

[polichick]

17. "It'll be over before the the powers that be have decided on their talking points."

I agree, it would have to be fast - and also involve social media networking.

[TBF]

142. If people are smart it won't involve social media

who do you think controls that? Billionaires in cahoots with the government. Anyone who is serious about upsetting the powers here, even if only to give them a scare, will keep to the streets and not communicate in ways that are already tapped.

Occupy was a start and the veterans of that will have to come back more focused and militant to lead the next generation. It will be the youth - it always is - and it will not be Facebooked or Tweeted (they have moved on from those now anyway).

[polichick]

144. I'm not convinced the "revolution" will involve a physical crowd...

It's so easy for the military and police to stop that kind of thing.

I agree that Occupy "was a start" but I also see it as a continuation of things started in the 60s.

[TBF]

152. Right - not that it wouldn't involve technology

but it's going to have to be much more sophisticated than Twitter. Anonymous has been successful ...

[polichick]

153. "Anonymous has been successful"...

Yes, there's much more going on than Twitter.

[BainsBane]

34. Ever study American history?

Did you learn about the popular mobilization of the 1930s? It was far, far more broad-based and mobilized far more people than Occupy. The result was the New Deal, reforms that created jobs programs and a safety net to hold together the capitalist system.
I'm not sure what you find so encouraging about Occupy.

[Marr]

43. I have, actually.

It could go more like the labor movements of the past, sure. I expect it would be a bit of both.

It seems to me that, in the decades since those popular movements made so much change, the business/government establishment has learned very well how to insulate itself from popular movements; how to attack them, sabotage them, etc. If real change comes to the US, I expect it's going to have a very strong element of surprise to it.

[TBF]

154. That is because we had a strong socialist presence

backed strongly by the unions. Folks like Eugene Debs were a serious threat to capitalism (which is why he was promptly jailed). And even though Palmer (Wilson administration) started cleaning house, McCarthy finished it by shipping out anyone Palmer had missed. Anyone who was seriously leftist and could prove a threat ... and that is why we currently have a communist party in name only.

And, still, I'm not sure that would even help at this point in this country. We've seen how quickly fascism rose in Greece (and they have KKE - a serious communist party) - I think we'd see it rise just as fast here.

I know the revolution will have to be global (because capital is now global) but I am not sure what form it would take. I tend to think Polichick is correct in that it may build on the 60s and Occupy but it will have to have new features as well. And I don't think it will happen first in the US by any stretch.

[1000words]

44. I could see it, if the "revolution" is a global one.

Americans will "import" a movement that will likely originate in Europe. In my opinion, that's the biggest legacy of Occupy: an emerging technically-savvy global resistance.

[polichick]

64. "the biggest legacy of Occupy: an emerging technically-savvy global resistance."

That's so true - and also makes sense if, like me, you look at Occupy as a continuation of the social movements of the 60s and 70s.

[KoKo]

193. I see it as a continuation of the "unfinished acheivements and ideals" of the 60's & 70's

Occupy coined the phrase the "1%" and changed the dialogue from "we all can get rich" to focus on "rich have gotten away with crashing the economy wiping out many peoples 401-K's and savings and no one on Wall Street has been held accountable."

It was lack of accountability by the 1% that started to fester as the austerity kicked in. The college loan debt, lack of decent jobs, robbing of pensions, privatization of public schools, privacy restrictions after "9/11" and the lack of fast enough addressing of what went wrong during the Bush years and before with the constant deregulation of New Deal Safeguards that had been in place. And...our endless "wars."

Just my thoughts...

[polichick]

198. Yeah, "unfinished" is a good way to put it...

Those on the left are always trying to live up to our Constitution - to reach our potential as a society, and also as humans - and those protecting the status quo always stand in the way.

From time to time there are bursts of energy that advance the cause. But, as you say, people are being hit so hard from so many directions at once - might take an extra big burst of energy to take us to a new level.

[Ichingcarpenter]

121. I tend to agree their press is not as corrupted as the US

There was almost no reporting on the hundred of thousands that protested Bush's election nor the Iraq war whereas protests in europe were covered by their press.As far as social media goes we can see how the Turkish govt. shut down youtube, twitter and other social media, but they are not european.

[KoKo]

194. I see it as Global, also. Already the austerity imposed by IMF is affecting

countries and the populations are rising up. The "1%" is Global. I think it will be a rolling wave of focus on the people's rights as opposed to the oligarchs control over banking/oil/finance/water/minerals, etc.

And Climate Change will also make it Global...because we will have to find a more equitable way to distribute resources among the people for civilization to survive.

[YoungDemCA]

2. Unfortunately, since there is no mass, organized working-class political movement in the US...

...I think a right-wing populist uprising against minority groups, the very poor, and other classic right-wing targets is quite possible-maybe even something akin to fascism.

I also do not see the plundering of the world's resources by the upper classes being stopped any time soon. If there is by some chance a left-wing uprising in the US, it would likely be violently and viciously put down, if American labor history is any guide.

I don't meant to sound defeatist, but that is how I see things.

[upaloopa]

3. I imagine something like the riots during the sixties and early seventies.

I see cities burning and anarchy.

[RoverSuswade]

6. Or maybe the suburbs.

That's where the richies live now with their gated communities and Zimmerman guards. In the seventies there were still "downtowns" representing "the Man."

[leftstreet]

4. 'set the nation back on course' - what course?

When was America ever on a course that benefited the peasants?

[polichick]

8. Good point. Maybe we could at least live up to our Constitution.

[Glassunion]

5. You forgot the "Who cares? Dancing With the Stars is on." option.

[Brigid]

84. That one might fit under #6.

Though you're right -- it would really be better as a separate option.

[Douglas Carpenter]

7. I'm afraid that at this point - a right-wing revolution is more probable than a left-wing revolution

Since the 60's and the days of George Wallace - the populism of the common people shifted from blaming the rich and powerful to blaming the less fortunate. It could shift back and there are some signs that might be occurring. But at this moment the reactionary forces simply are stronger particularly among the white working class.

[randome]

9. "Viva la revolution! Dance! Dance, you fools!"

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[sufrommich]

10. It would look a lot like the Tea Party as far as

rights for minorities,gays and women are concerned,and a lot like a wet dream Ayn Rand would have as for as the economy and taxes are concerned. People who believe this country would swing to the left rather than to the right if our government ceased to exist are seeing what they want to see instead of reality.No thanks.

[theboss]

18. I agree

The small - embarrassingly small - Left wing elements in this country are concentrated in cities. And I'm fairly certain that a city is the last place you would want to be in the event of a modern American revolution.

[mindwalker_i]

11. People will just watch more TV

[polichick]

19. Until the power is cut? Until someone (burglars?) come for the TV?

Could be - TV is a potent drug.

[CrispyQ]

40. Max Headroom

"Twenty minutes into the future, the world has become imbued network-television. It's illegal to turn off your TV, and televisions are given to the needy."

[mindwalker_i]

41. Yup, that's about right

That show was weird, and I was too young to really understand it's brilliance.

[polichick]

54. Never saw this but what an idea!

[CrispyQ]

76. Yeah. The main character, Edison Carter, frequently throws a blanket over his.

[Blue_In_AK]

61. I loved Max Headroom.

Before its time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. While Occupy is the obvious answer

the dynamics leading to this started before Occupy and before Obama. Like the American Revolution, the dynamics for this started forty years ago. Now it continues to accelerate, but the seeds were planted a while ago.

Piece of trivia, it was the founding fathers parents generation who spoke with increasing admiration of a revolution that took place a hundred years, almost to the day, of the American Revolution, that be Bacon's revolt.

Something similar is at play here. And I personally do not expect to see it, but if we do, we do.

[polichick]

20. Glad you mentioned "forty years ago" - I have always felt that...

Occupy Wall Street was a continuation of the social movements of the 60s and 70s.

And imo there is hope in numbers and skills - the generations working together, doing what they do best. Any "revolution" will depend on internet communication and millennials are the best networkers evah!

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. You and I my friend share something with people like Waterman (H2O)

we share the long view.

I find it increasingly absent with the now in vogue quarterly returns matter more than that. It is killing companies, preventing good social change, and turning all to product.

That is one of those things that we will have to change, if that revolution will come, and I actually believe it will come. It started actually, those forces are accelerating as people feel they are running in place and going nowhere.

[polichick]

29. For What It's Worth...

&list=RDgp5JCrSXkJY

Millennials can contribute the networking skills - boomers will provide the music!

[llmart]

169. LOL

Great comment. Yes, us boomers had the best music, didn't we????

[polichick]

176. The best ever! :)

[RKP5637]

109. Yes, it was a déjà vu! n/t

[KoKo]

199. Have you seen the photos of all the Demonstrations in the past years...

It's so encouraging. There are Older (even pre-boomers) and the Young in those photos.

I agree with you about the generations working together. The Older have more time and knowledge of the past to contribute and the younger (as you say) have the technological skills and social networking abilities to get the message out.

Those in the middle age groups are necessarily focused on their families and or their jobs and have less time to devote.

Unlike the 60's where it was mostly youth and the parents couldn't understand what the kids were so upset about...the older generation today knows exactly why they need to be out in the streets or working in whatever way they can to help organize. So this is a great fusion that might just achieve what was hoped because of the numbers...and the challenges out there to all of us with this Corporatocracy/Plutocracy/Oligarchy...(whatever one thinks we are into).

For that we have to be hopeful...

[polichick]

202. Totally with you on this...

This time the generations all get it - and together we have finally reached critical mass! Really does make me hopeful.

[jwirr]

49. Doing genealogy I remember reading about the Bacon revolution and thinking we needed someone

like him now.

I was thrilled by the fact that Occupy was doing something. First real action since 60s. However, I almost immediately thought that they had made a mistake by locating their demonstrations in one local. Too easy to be attacked. I also like what they have continued doing.

I do not know where we are going from here but I for one would not want to be a visible rich person or company.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Things are building, and there is a feeling of both

cynicism, system is stacked against us, and we need to do something (but as of yet don't know what) in the air.

Occupy continues to act. That is one step, of actually many.

[Xyzse]

14. People will be held to inaction.

There is violence now, but it is few and far between.
There is a glut of information that people don't bother sifting facts from fiction.

[n2doc]

15. illustrated

[1000words]

42. Perfect!

[Raksha]

53. Too true, unfortunately.

That has to change before there can be a real revolution.

[abelenkpe]

70. Perfect illustration nt

[theboss]

16. I'm 90 percent certain that if there is ever a violent revolution, it will come from the right

There is simply no organized Left here of any significance. And there is truly no left-wing presence in the things necessary to complete a revolution like the military or the police.

Anyway, I don't see a right-wing revolution either. Even in this lousy economy, the vast majority of people have far far far too much to lose.

[B2G]

21. Interesting results so far, but

Why would the right attack since they're the ones doing the plundering?

[polichick]

22. Misplaced anger I guess - manipulated into going after scapegoats?

[theboss]

23. Well, A) no one is going to attack

But B) any American revolution is likely to be populist in nature.

And C) Left wing populists are such a small minority of this country while there are a ton of right-wing populists who also have guns.

So D) I could see a time if unemployment reached, like 25 percent or something when right wingers decided to take out their frustrations on minorities and gays and then got so worked up it became something larger. And there would probably be a certain level of tolerance for that in the public safety and military communities.

There would be no military or police support for a left-wing revolution.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

27. If they see their position threatened, they'll react violently (nt)

[Lizzie Poppet]

57. The vast majority of the right AREN'T doing the plundering.

It's the 1% (or, actually, an even smaller portion of that one percent) that are doing the plundering. Those on the right who are not a part of that 1% are useful idiots, stupidly doing precisely what the powers-that-be want them to...but they're certainly not benefiting from any of the plunder.

So they're just as pissed off...only at the wrong people.

[Ikonoklast]

94. Same reason they did it in Spain, Italy, Germany...

To grind all opposition to Fascism into the dust.

[MineralMan]

25. Come the Revolution,

There will be pie in the sky, by and by.

[randome]

106. And it's...it's so...beautiful!

[hr][font color="blue"][center]All things in moderation, including moderation.[/center][/font][hr]

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

26. Some of this....Some of that

I think a populist movement will grow up outside the Democratic Party and will take it over, much as the Tea Party has done with the Republicans (the corporatists of both parties will probably form the most well-funded third-party effort in human history).

I fully suspect there will be violence from the right. And by that I mean more than we see currently.

[Calista241]

28. Not happening

People are going to be trying to feed their families. Getting involved in a high risk campaign like this, I just don't see it.

[moondust]

30. The military could have a big say.

Maybe even veto power.

As in most conflicts, much would depend on what the military chose to do of its own volition, whether to take sides or stay on the sidelines. Egypt is a good example. The Egyptian military stayed mostly neutral on the sidelines during the overthrow of Mubarak which allowed the opposition to grow and finally prevail. Then I think the military did take sides and was instrumental in deposing Morsi and outlawing the Muslim Brotherhood. Of course now there's a military man (Sisi) running for president so maybe that was the plan all along.

Before the invasion of Iraq I had a dream one night in which tanks rolled up onto the White House lawn and ordered the Bush administration to abandon its invasion plans for the good of the country.

[randome]

33. The U.S. military is not like that of other, small countries. Nor is it of one mind.

Our military would end up fighting itself.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[marions ghost]

39. that rings true to me

our military would split.

[randome]

60. That's why I say: Screw the revolution! Let's dance!

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[marions ghost]

63. Not a great response

to the RethugliCon revolution we have already experienced...

Unless you're resigned to being on the Titanic.

[randome]

86. The Republicans are the iceberg approaching America.

They're melting and will vanish before they can complete the disaster.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Javaman]

31. Being a student of history...

a "revolution" will be started by an unexpected event powered by a yet known charismatic leader or leaders who unite the people with a certain brand of propaganda that boosts their moral until the post war purges.

oh and there most certainly will be purges.

I'm thinking something a long the lines of a 40% French Revolution, 20-30% Russian Revolution, 10-20% American Revolution and all of it heavily sprinkled 10-20% Nationalism.

I fear not the "revolution", I most fear the post-rev years. Which, I'm thinking will closely resemble a combination of "The Reign of Terror" and Pol Pots "Killing Fields".

[polichick]

36. "I most fear the post-rev years" - me too...

It's interesting that a lot of corporate chiefs and wealthy citizens have safe havens in other countries - both for their cash and for themselves.

[RKP5637]

115. +++ 1,000 +++ n/t

[pipi_k]

32. Despite what we do

to our fellow citizens and all (random violence, etc.), I don't believe there will ever be a revolution.

We're way too "polite" for that sort of thing...

Or lazy...

Or apathetic...


Or whatever it is we are.

[marions ghost]

35. Seems like we're talking about two concepts of revolution

--the Right vs the Left.

The theoretical Right revolution is commonly taken here it looks like--to mean a violent uprising directed towards other citizens (in other words, doing the dirty work of the Corporate PTB out in the trenches). Wouldn't that be a Civil War? Because the soft revolution on the Right has already occurred.

The theoretical Left revolution is generally seen as non-violent, directed towards the Corporatocratic PTB. That would be how I interpret the word "revolution" --in the sense of change for the better. I think the soft revolution on the Left would be the logical answer to the egregious abuses of the Right. There are glimmers of that.

The middle & lower class Left and Right--have a lot more in common with each other than they do with the uber wealthy PTB. They are being exploited equally.

[polichick]

38. True - two very different approaches/concepts...

and two groups that must remain divided in order for the ptb to thrive.

[RKP5637]

110. Exactly! "The middle & lower class Left and Right--have a lot more in common with

each other than they do with the uber wealthy PTB. They are being exploited equally."

I've often felt some teabaggers, for example, have a lot in common with some of our goals, but it's expressed in different ways, and the "division machinery" keeps us divided from recognizing some of those common grounds.

[marions ghost]

125. The Division Machinery

--that is the problem.

All we can do is keep on talkin, keep on walkin...in whatever way that is meant for each.

Wonder what it would be like to actually have a discussion with hardcore teabaggers on the topic of our economic mutual interests, if nothing else.

Somehow I don't imagine they'd be receptive but ya never know. Now that would be some feat of diplomacy. It would take a special person to bridge the gap. Somebody perceived as being neutral.

How to get em to the table --on the agreement to avoid social hot button issues and stick to economics.

This IS the gap in this society that needs to be bridged.

[CrispyQ]

37. A combo of these two options.

>> There will be no revolution - the U.S. will be plundered 'til there's nothing left.

>> There will be violence from the right, targeting fellow citizens.

TPTB will laugh at the teabaggers as they take their anger & frustrations out on those in their own class.

[polichick]

48. "TPTB will laugh at the teabaggers as they take their anger & frustrations...

out on those in their own class."

I think there's been some laughter already.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. We will continue to decline in power and go broke trying to retain it.

See Rome, Britain, France, et al for precedents. Hopefully, the decline will be gradual until we choose to become just another nation rather than a super power.

[RKP5637]

113. Yes, there is a lot to be said for this! We continue to stretch this nation financially,

socially and mentally at the expense of our future. Millions in this country are in despair or damn close to it, and it's brushed under the carpet.

[AverageJoe90]

46. TPTB really, truly, don't want us to believe that vital change is coming, or even possible.

But that's how scared they are, and this is evident by how hard they're fighting back right now(and by the
".1% will win" propaganda they've been putting out, which, sadly, a lot of you guys posting here seem to have unknowingly bought into). But it's coming, alright. Progress has never been anything but inevitable. The success of Obamacare and increasing amounts of resources dedicated to fighting climate change are just two symptoms of the positive change to come.

[marions ghost]

66. I like your optimism

beats pessimism. But I think it's going to take some work. I don't take it for granted at this point.

[AverageJoe90]

90. Thanks. I don't take anything for granted, either.

We may indeed have a ways to go, sadly. But one of the thing that does keep me going is that history has truly shown, over and over again, that things do eventually progress in a positive direction after a time(otherwise, we would have been doomed a very long time ago).

[marions ghost]

93. Most rigid political power trips fail

eventually...out of their own arrogance and stupidity. They have no idea what's important in this life.

But it's a question of getting to that tipping point...

[Donald Ian Rankin]

47. Other: there will be no revolution, and life will go on. N.T.

[Puzzledtraveller]

135. ^^winner^^

[MO_Moderate]

50. None of the above

Most people don't believe that government or corporations are trying to enslave them, so our country will keep slowly progressing with the times. Just as we have always done.

There will always be a few who think the government does to little or to much. They will still 'occupy' and 'party,' but they do not define the movement of the country.

IF there was to be some kind of 'revolution,' it will be between those who wish to change the US Constitution to progress with the times, and those who wish to leave it alone.

[dilby]

51. It will not be till there is a food shortage that there will be a revolution.

Currently as long as people are fat they are happy and content being robbed blind.

[polichick]

52. And mass migrations due to the food shortage!

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. ding, ding, ding, ding, part of the answer

[RKP5637]

114. If food gets much more expensive there is going to be a food shortage in this

household. The cost of food soars each and every time we go out shopping.

[Corruption Inc]

56. People will stop participating in our corrupt economy, build lives outside it

There will be no revolution, it's natural change in response to criminal and predatory environments. People will go on with their daily lives with no compunction whatsoever about disobeying whatever the corrupt powers that be are telling them to do.

Then and only then will our power structures change because as of now, the entire U.S. system is a festering pile of corruption on top of corruption.

[polichick]

59. "build lives outside it" - I see this beginning to happen...

especially with young people.

[PopeOxycontinI]

120. How is it even possible....

to build a life outside the system? There is no way to do this without moving to the Amazon
or something similar. I have been scrambling and that is all I have found.
Can you give some specifics about how "young people" are doing this?
The ones I know are all trapped working a shit job to pay for a shit apartment shared with six degenerate
roommates or stuck living at mom and dad's house. It's either that or live in the woods eating berries, crossing your fingers
none are poisonous. What are the other options you are hinting at?
Trust fund brats buying an organic farm with 500k of mom and dad's money doesn't count either, since it
is not possible for more than a privileged few.

[polichick]

131. A couple of things I've seen with twentysomethings I know:

They create their own support groups - networks of individuals instead of the institutions that most people used to belong to (churches, school groups, traditional clubs like Rotary, etc.)

The ones who do make decent money invest differently - not trusting institutions, they invest in individuals, buying good art that rises in value, helping someone start a company, etc.

But yes, good jobs are scarce. Most people I know are doing more than one thing - something to pay the bills and something else to build on (art, music, back to school, small companies).

[JI7]

165. investment in art is largely a wealthy person thing, and young people have always built support

groups as it's a natural part of life. people go to school , first jobs etc and meet people, make friends, and people who will provide support for each other.

this is nothing different than anything before.

art, music, school, starting a business etc is nothing new . it's a part of life as has always been.

[polichick]

170. Investing in art is a good idea for anyone...

who doesn't want to put money in the stock market - as long as they know art well enough to get it right.

What happens if the next generations steer clear of the stock market - that's a bit of a revolution in itself.

[JI7]

172. as i said, art investment is for the wealthy classes

[KoKo]

203. WE did that TOO..in early 70's ...(craft groups..not buying Crap..giving our kids REAL Imaginative

Last edited Sat Apr 5, 2014, 09:40 PM - Edit history (1)

toys and alternative schooling.

It doesn't always work out the way one thinks...but, this push back might finally realize what WE hoped for.

BUT BEWARE...the MANIPULATION.....Because the SAME FORCES against US...are still there.

Altruism is Great...and opting out of System is the Fall Back...but, BEWARE...how these Movements can be CO-Opted!

It's real...and NEVER GIVE UP....but BE AWARE what happened to US!

[Caretha]

137. Me too

My daughter & her partner "live outside it". They are both very successful at it. The problem I see is that 99% of us do not have the knowledge nor skills or fortitude to do what they do.

They are both teaching others how, and I believe that more & more are starting to want to learn. He (her partner) was just offered a position at a College in their area to start a new perma-culture program within the college's Agriculture department, and to teach it.

My daughter, who is also a certified Permaculturist, is working with another woman with the same credentials as her partner, and is using her writing/PR skills to get more publications interested in writing about this "movement".

[polichick]

155. This is really interesting - and cool that they are teaching others...

Focusing on sustainability instead of growth-for-profit is what we'll all have to do eventually.

[marions ghost]

62. If that happens on a large scale

it would be a soft revolution, ie. change which is non-violent.

I agree the US is corruption on top of corruption, but "disobeying" technically puts you in the revolutionary category. Because to disobey is often to break some laws (in the form of civil disobedience).

Not disagreeing--noncompliance is certainly a reasonable response to exploitation. Just talking about the label for it, if it were a widespread movement.

[UglyGreed]

65. We are in a revolution

Which began during the Nixon Administration and really picked up steam during Reagan's. It is a right wing fascist revolution which greed is good and the poor and disabled are the problem. There is no liberal media and IMO there are no true liberals left to change the tide.

[polichick]

67. But isn't that right-wing "revolution" a reaction to the beginnings...

Last edited Thu Apr 3, 2014, 05:26 PM - Edit history (1)

of a left-wing "revolution" that started in the social movements of the 60s and 70s and was continued by Occupy Wall Street?

[UglyGreed]

73. Yes!!!

But sadly enough the right quickly stopped any gains the left had in the 60s and stomped out any hopes of a new one with the handling of Occupy. We are 50 years into far right rule of the USA and I see no hope in the changing this in the near future. The left today is what the right use to be,we as nation are moving more to the right day by day.

[UglyGreed]

75. Oh and

9/11 was the icing on the cake for the far right.

[polichick]

79. I'm trying to hold onto a bit of hope.

[UglyGreed]

82. I understand

As long as there is a spark............

[marions ghost]

74. So I

Agree completely that we are in the midst of a right wing fascist revolution.

Don't agree whatsoever that there's nobody left to change the tide. Why does it have to be "true Liberals" to do that? It can be anybody on the side of a just, sane and civilized society. We are the majority.

Don't Wait for Liberalman.

[UglyGreed]

81. I used

True Liberals as to express the opposite of the far right mindset. I'm just getting old and jaded and I exposed that in my post earlier. What we need is critical thinkers and not those all caught up in the group think mentality. I hoped Occupy was the beginning of that type of thinking, perhaps in time they will rise again.

[marions ghost]

88. OK I get that

Absolutely, what we need is critical thinkers now. And also creative thinkers. I'm convinced a lot are out there. The younger generations are not fooled. Take heart, there are positive signs. I really believe more people are waking up --eg. Occupy, Wisconsin, Moral Monday movement, labor movement, environmental concerns, and also just in general as a response to the ever more egregious abuses of power. Nothing is over.

[JI7]

68. there isn't going to be any reovlution, even the people who talk about it only go so far as internet

forums . it's really nothing more even for them .

[polichick]

71. Occupy Wall Street is more. The militias training...

on the weekends are more.

A populist campaign by Bernie Sanders would be more.

[JI7]

72. no, none of those things have resulted in a revolution

[polichick]

77. I meant more than an internet thing, as you suggested.

[JI7]

78. yes,but those are not cases of revolutions happening

[snooper2]

141. Not really, most people are going to work every day, playing with their kids

planting spring flowers, going to the movies, cooking on the grill...



REVOLUTION! We Band Together To Take the Man Down! LOL,

we aren't living in Egypt you know

[polichick]

146. Most people are working more for less...

and when they wake up to what the future holds for those kids, they won't be so easily distracted.

[Nye Bevan]

69. LOL. Revolution? In the age of Instagram, Flappy Bird, Candy Crush, and selfies?

I think not.

[AverageJoe90]

98. Not in the traditional sense, no.

But there is certainly a genuine upswelling going on amongst not just lefties, but moderates as well, who are getting sick and tired of the GOP's bullshittery. Why else would there be all the sudden upswing in voter ID laws and such? TCPTB are in trouble and they know it, too. But we can't give up now. We *must* continue fighting.

[Puzzledtraveller]

136. You got that right Nye

If TV was the opiate of the masses the internet is crystal meth, no way we are putting it down to get dirty, lol.

[snooper2]

143. Francis will Lead the REVOLUTION! YOU PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHAT IS COMING!

[Nye Bevan]

145. WOW. I retract my previous statement. Sign me up! (nt)

[Hoyt]

80. Unfortunately, the folks with the wrong view might come out on top.

[AverageJoe90]

102. They will certainly try, anyhow.

But the right's spark for "revolution&quot or rather, faux revolution)was already fired back in 2009. That spark has been fizzling out and people are slowly realizing that it was all a TPTB-generated farce.

We are far from out of danger, however; as the far-right realizes that the game is up, they will begin to truly ramp up the violence on a scale not seen since the '60s, and probably worse! And then there is the prospect for the possible collapse of China in the next 10-15 years, barring some sort of political miracle. So I don't see a utopia as realistically likely or even more than remotely possible.

But if there's any small comfort, we're not going to turn into Nazi Germany, either.

[Brigid]

83. I rather reluctantly chose #6.

There are signs of restlessness, of course; but at the same time, the plutocrats seem to be becoming more and more powerful.

[gulliver]

85. 90% voter turnout with left leaners voting 100% Dem.

That would change the planet. Call it what you want.

[BlindTiresias]

87. There is already a revolution

It is right wing and takes from anarcho-capitalism and fascism. Expect to see growing eliminationist rhetoric and eventually outright purges as people are herded into ghettos. Currently Hans Hermann Hoppe is considered probably the foremost libertarian scholar, so if you want to see where the ideological trajectory of the United States is I would highly recommend reading "Democracy: The God That Failed" by H.H. Hoppe. I can guarantee you that his vision of society is the end game in the right wing and it largely calls for the removal of the status of "citizen" and "human" from anyone who disagrees with right wing ideology and a mass reinstatement of debt slavery as well as a clawback of the meager social gains the Democrats have been advocating for.

The scary part is alot of Democrats also buy into this ideology without knowing what the end game is.

[marions ghost]

89. I don't doubt it

--that there's a right wing revolution occurring, and as you say this Libertarian academic guy Hoppe is a pivotal influence on RethugliCons. I looked him up, haven't read his book...yikes! He's messed up. Just one example:

In 2013, Hoppe reflected on the relationship between democracy and the arts and concluded that "democracy leads to the subversion and ultimately disappearance of the notion of beauty and universal standards of beauty. Beauty is swamped and submerged by so-called 'modern art'."[22] Wiki



Not understanding why you say Democrats buy into Hoppe's ideology. Like who? This is extreme.

[BlindTiresias]

95. Well not Hoppe's ideology specifically

But many democrats consider markets to be superior to all else and believe this within the context of corporate capitalism. Unwittingly they have agreed to the basic foundations of what H.H. Hoppe is promoting.

[AverageJoe90]

92. Well, more like a faux "revolution".

It started circa '09 when Obama was elected. Our own "Velvet Revolution", if we may call it that, is still down the road for a while. People are upset but the tipping point has not yet been reached, and TCPTB(the Criminal powers that be, i.e. the Koch Bros.) are desperately trying to do as much damage as they can before their downfall(including by convincing Democrats that we can't win, that we can't change things for the better, etc., by manipulating discussion about climate change, both by pandering to deniers and by pushing "we are doomed. we cannot stop global warming.", doomer agitprop, etc.). And I am afraid that there's a strong possibility that the extremist rightist violence we've seen so far, may become far worse over the next decade, as the Teabaggers and their ilk realize that their influence on society is slipping away for good; and then there's the matter of when oil production finally does peak, or China's economy implodes. So yeah, things aren't going to be all rosy, that's for sure.

But history has shown, over and over again, that progress does eventually inevitably happen for the better. We should continue to work to speed the process however we can, both as individuals and as a whole.

[BlindTiresias]

96. Are you sure?

I look in the past and I see ups and downs, including very stable empires that were utterly miserable to live in. The myth of historical progression makes us feel good, but it is still a myth. I see nothing to suggest any kind of leftist renaissance is imminent.

[AverageJoe90]

97. "The myth of historical progression makes us feel good, but it is still a myth." Not at all.

I do realize things seem hopeless sometimes. But here's the thing: that's exactly what TCPTB want us to think, that inevitable progress(whether it be short-term or long-term) is a myth. It depresses and demotivates us, but it makes them happy, at least for the time being,

I see nothing to suggest any kind of leftist renaissance is imminent.

Imminent renaissance? Probably not(I'd say probably in about 30-40 years). But people are waking up, even if slowly; look at how far we've already gotten with LGBT rights, for example. Universal healthcare is starting to become a reality. And the war on marijuana is finally starting to really fall apart as well.
So it's not all bad.

BTW, I'm not suggesting that we will be living in a utopia; that seems unlikely. But at least America is certainly not going to swing all the other way around, either.

[BlindTiresias]

99. Minor social issues in the grand scheme of things

In the core structural stuff that I am referring to there is a definite right wing tendency that is going further right. Imagine things like the NSA surveillance apparatus in the hands of the right wing (this will happen) and then include their justified fears that things are turning against them. The american left has -nothing- to answer back with for an alternative way of structuring society and so they lose by default as they are perpetually playing on the other side's terms.

So forsake the left many dems say on DU and elsewhere. Welcome to the rightward slide as the frame desires more consistency.

As I said, there will be no renaissance forthcoming and the total domination of society by the right wing seems extremely likely.

[AverageJoe90]

100. Again, I understand that things may temporarily seem hopeless.

Even I've gone thru that occasionally. It happens to nearly everyone.

.....and the total domination of society by the right wing seems extremely likely.

Realistically speaking, it's not. Not in this country anyway.....though then again, that may not be such a sure thing in some other parts of the West, especially where Greece is concerned.

But again, the only surefire way we do lose is if we somehow all convince ourselves that nothing can be done, or that nothing will be done. Please don't delude yourself into falling into that trap; I made the same mistake myself several years back. Have regretted that ever since.

[randome]

104. Like I said: let's dance.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]

[polichick]

105. Great pic!

[MineralMan]

91. What would your participation be in

this revolution, polichick? Do tell...

[Bonobo]

191. I am curious as to why you asked that question.

It sounds to my ears more like a passive aggressive insinuation.

All societies historically have eventually faced a revolution. Do you think that America will be the one that does not?

Do you think that anyone that considers the scenario is some kind of nihilist that needs to be brought down?

[MineralMan]

192. Curiosity led to my asking that question.

Whenever someone discusses revolution as a means of change, I'm curious about what they see their role in that might be.

You have read into my words something I did not say.

[VanillaRhapsody]

101. I have NO idea why some people glorify this "revolution"

you don't seem to understand how horrible it will be....revolutions are typically very very bloody...

What role are you intending to play?

[polichick]

103. Talking about possibilities = "glorifying" to you?

[VanillaRhapsody]

129. talking about spilling blood is not a part of your "fantasy" revolution?

Revolutions usually require blood....

[polichick]

132. lol - I don't have a fantasy revolution. Something's going to happen...

when people have had enough. As you can see from the poll list, it can be peaceful or not - and it most likely won't look like anything we anticipate. But, for people interested in social-cultural history, it's not an unusual topic.

If it bothers you, don't participate.

[VanillaRhapsody]

139. OH YES you do...

are you willing to spill YOUR children's blood for it?

[treestar]

124. +1

It is romanticized.

Far better to work in the system we have. That is why it is a good one. So silly to talk of revolution from it.

[marions ghost]

126. Revolutions don't need to be bloody at all

--I think there's a misconception about this.

It can mean change that happens quicker than if you do nothing.

[VanillaRhapsody]

140. but they MOSTLY ARE bloody.....check your history!

are you willing to spill YOUR children's blood for it?

[marions ghost]

156. I'm talking about non-violent revolution

Last edited Fri Apr 4, 2014, 04:18 PM - Edit history (1)

where nobody's blood is spilled. Look at the Reagan Revolution, the installation of Bushcheney, or even the Teaparty takeover (tho you could argue the recent radical right wing revolution in America has done much collateral damage involving death--but not directly bloody).

I use "revolution" to mean any substantial change that affects all society, not just the type involving warfare. A revolution in thinking or attitudes is a revolution.

------------
As far as historical examples, here are a few:

Wiki-"non-violent revolutions" :

A nonviolent revolution is a revolution using mostly campaigns of civil resistance, including various forms of nonviolent protest, to bring about the departure of governments seen as entrenched and authoritarian. While many campaigns of civil resistance are aimed at much more limited goals than revolution, generally a nonviolent revolution is characterized by simultaneous advocacy of democracy, human rights and national independence in the country concerned. In some cases a campaign of civil resistance with a revolutionary purpose may be able to bring about the defeat of a dictatorial regime only if it obtains a degree of support from the armed forces, or at least their benevolent neutrality.

An effective campaign of civil resistance, and even the achievement of a nonviolent revolution, may be possible in a particular case despite the controlling government taking brutal measures against protesters; the commonly held belief that most revolutions which have happened in dictatorial regimes were bloody or violent uprisings is not borne out by historical analysis. Nonviolent revolutions in the 20th century became more successful and more common, especially in the 1980s as Cold War political alliances which supported status quo governance waned.

In the 1970s and 1980s, thinkers in the Soviet Union and other Communist states, and in some other countries, began to focus on civil resistance as the most promising means of opposing entrenched authoritarian regimes. The use of various forms of unofficial exchange of information, including by samizdat, expanded. Two major revolutions during the 1980s strongly influenced political movements that followed. The first was the 1986 People Power Revolution, in the Philippines from which the term 'people power' came to be widely used, especially in Hispanic and Asian nations.[1] Three years later, the Revolutions of 1989 that ousted communist regimes in the Eastern Bloc reinforced the concept (with the notable exception of the notoriously bloody Romanian Revolution), beginning with the victory of Solidarity in that year's Polish legislative elections. The Revolutions of 1989 provided the template for the so-called color revolutions in mainly post-communist states, which tended to use a color or flower as a symbol, somewhat in the manner of the Velvet Revolution in Czechoslovakia.
-----

--Also see my post #158 below

[VanillaRhapsody]

159. then you are fantasizing.....

Yes there is always violence....

Do you think there is no violence just because YOU choose to be non-violent? Do you think no blood is spilled?

Do you think no one that followed Gandhi spilled blood?

Not to mention the fact that even calling for "Revolution" means you want to overthrow the U.S. government with said Revolution...

[marions ghost]

161. I think

that we have to do more than just vote at this point. Of course we do have to vote, especially since the right to vote is currently being threatened. And populist movements of the past have certainly influenced voting. So it's not an either/or situation at all. It's both. It's all. It's a continuing effort. It has to be a really serious populist movement, a coalition of all concerned groups and individuals.

Voting alone is not going to be enough to bring about the revolution we want to see. Try not to be so literal about the word "revolution." There is not just one definition of the word. I don't fantasize overthrowing the US government. I fantasize CHANGING the US government to more fairly and justly represent its people. In other words, to petition it to address our grievances, to bring it around to acting like a real Democracy--ie. a nation that invests in its people. Not a sham democracy exploited by a tiny fraction of the populace. That job is going to take work.

As far as I'm concerned there has already been a right wing revolution in this country--beginning with Reagan and continuing today. They may not have 'spilled blood" in the streets technically but they have used every dishonest, cruel, and criminal avenue they could to claw their way to inordinate power. They have changed this country in a big way--that IS revolution. We Liberals, Democrats, Progressives--we don't stoop to the criminal. We can't use those tactics. But our adversaries in power have used their lack of integrity to full advantage, and they have succeeded beyond our imaginings. We really are up against liars, thugs and thieves. They will never do anything differently as long as we put up with it.

So I think a non-violent movement advocating for the changes we want to see is justified, and its time has come. The egregious abuses of power must be countered in an effective way. Yes, that's a real challenge when you live in a high surveillance, high "security" state, where any sort of civil unrest is instantly met with lethal force. So conscientious objection to what we see going on today HAS to be non-violent, within the bounds of law, but relentless. Liberalman is not going to save us. It has to be you and me, average people--not just students, not just labor, not just voting rights advocates. Everybody. No contribution is too small. And I don't only mean taking to the streets--there are plenty of other ways to participate. Use buycott apps, support businesses that practice true responsibility, support anything that offers change in the right direction. There really is no other option. This is what we owe the children. Otherwise just teach them to passively knuckle under to their masters.

cheers

[VanillaRhapsody]

166. I think no matter WHAT THEY DO....if WE Vote WE WIN!

[marions ghost]

177. And if we win, do we fix what they did?

But consider that even if Dems win the election, we may not have changed anything for the better. We may only be putting a finger in the dike, barely holding the line against the worst of RethugliCon exploitation. Or not. No guarantees. Working for change in other ways can be every bit as important.

But if elections are your thing--great--GOTV like hell. I will make a contribution once again there too, but having worked elections before and (let's just say) "seen things" at local level, I am not confident in our system of elections. After the Bushcheney installation, I can't argue that voting doesn't matter, but I can understand why people would see it as just part of the picture.

Voting is still worthwhile but it's not going to be enough. Keep the power of the ballot box firmly in perspective. It just can't be the only way we try to change things.

-------

"For the most part, candidates are chosen, and issues framed, by money-power. Political parties and candidates for office are influenced by money when before they are running for office, when they are running, and after they are elected. Few of the many volunteers who actively work in electoral politics have any actual voice in selecting the candidates, crafting their positions, or shaping the subsequent legislation. The only real role most of us have is voting on election day. The result is that today we have two money parties that both represent the interests of the giant corporations and the wealthy few — one of those parties supports "liberal" social policy such as a woman's right to have an abortion, and the other opposes those rights. But no party represents our interests against those of the wealthy."

[VanillaRhapsody]

179. Do you suggest we don't?

[marions ghost]

183. We have lost ground

as a political party that can claim to have the best interests of the average American at heart.

Democrats at every level of govt are not effectively containing or overturning the damage done by the other side. (Lots of Bush era appointees still hanging around is one problem). So it's not only because we can't get the votes for some bill or other (even from our side at times) but also because, as I said, the opposition will stop at nothing, and it's very hard to win against those who have no ethics and no conscience. I'm speaking in generalities here, but you know as well as I do, the examples which illustrate the truth of this.

And the odds are getting even worse...

Just now on Chris Hayes show they had the McCutcheon guy (vs the FEC in the SCOTUS ruling) being interviewed. He made the statement that he thought he should be able to "buy a candidate in the political marketplace" (as a right of "free speech&quot . Now --you tell me--how can we respect a system that operates this way? Where one person, because he is rich, can have so much more say than countless others--in who gets elected. Is this Democracy?

[VanillaRhapsody]

184. Not according to Bernie Sanders we haven't

according to Bernie "We HAVE made progress....we need to defend that Progress"

[marions ghost]

185. Some progress is certainly better than none

and I don't doubt we need to "defend it" --but I think that turning back the right wing revolution involves more than just electing officials who must operate within a corrupted system.

Is this really democracy any more, where the rich can buy the candidates they want in "the political marketplace?"

[VanillaRhapsody]

186. We have one advantage on our side...shear numbers....

[marions ghost]

187. Yes --that is our strength

and I wish more people would realize it. And not feel so defeated.

We have the numbers. Together we can move mountains if we can harness the momentum of millions.

[VanillaRhapsody]

188. We just need to stop beating our own candidates to a pulp.....

who among the low information voters wants to vote for the guys they've seen pummeled by those that are supposedly on the same side...

[marions ghost]

189. Lo info voters

are usually R voters arent they?

Sometimes when a candidate is criticized, the voters get more interested in the race because they feel they must make a judgment themselves. Dem voters are more smarter

I know you are making a point about Solidarity and I agree more or less. But I don't think we should worry too much about criticism of candidates from within or without. It's expected when you run for office, that you will be shredded.

[VanillaRhapsody]

190. No...they are the mushy middle...they don't pay attention until the end and they are

heavily influenced by which side looks like the winner...

[RKP5637]

107. With the build up of DHS, the militarization of local police, the cross

coordination, the incredible surveillance and the weaponry for suppression and killing, I think it is impossible to ever think of a revolution in terms of violence, etc. I think people will be suppressed more and more, and new generations will accept it as normal.

That said, one hope is that people worldwide are getting fed up. Technology will lead the world, those, that really understand technology, those that are the pioneers, the doers, not the users of technology. There will be radical changes in the future, the oligarchy will fail as these changes take place. I also think borders between countries will fall/fail.

The rules of the game that brought us to where we are now are obsolete, as is capitalism and the rest of the financial shackles.

I can't speak to what the minute changes will be, but in the big picture the future will be very different.

Much as with the industrial revolution, we now have a social revolution taking place. What would happen if a giant mind-meld occurred.

[polichick]

134. Good point about the technology "doers" - that's the critical piece, the part...

the oligarchs can't control.

And something else that's critical imo - they way young people create networks of individuals, leaving behind traditional institutions they don't trust.

[RKP5637]

148. We need to go around a number of these traditional institutions. They are in

the way and do nothing but feed the oligarchs and promote greed. Someone was working on over the air handheld peer to peer communications, bypassing traditional carriers, ... somewhat like the internet. It can be done, but it is slow, and requires a number of users to span a small community. Also, if it became popular the oligarchs would work to make it illegal, one of their favorite tactics.

Some financial institutions need to be bypassed, people need to work together in a collective manner, than institutions spanning/connecting individuals financially for institutional control and greed.

There needs to be a movement to connect people together without the traditional institutions involved. Religion tries to do that for some, but IMO religion has failed miserably in many ways, so much baggage and authoritarian behavior, many fleecing the flocks for money.

Some of the future technologies of linking minds are going to be quite interesting, but scary at the same time. ... really depends on who grabs it and controls it ...

I really think advancing technology is going to drastically change sociological behavior in the coming decades. So much today is drastically obsolete in the futuristic big picture. For example, we still barter and trade, the stock market for example, in a prehistoric manner. And many see competition as a motivator rather than cooperation. Much of it is so backward and linked to primitive mankind.

[polichick]

150. "There needs to be a movement to connect people together...

without the traditional institutions involved."

The two things millennials are so good at - connecting and steering clear of traditional institutions.

Boomers began things in the 60s, the social movements, breaking away from some traditional institutions - but then dispersed, often moving to several places for work and not keeping up great connections over time.

The right-wing "revolution" has flourished with little to stop it.

"I really think advancing technology is going to drastically change sociological behavior in the coming decades."

This is the exciting part - perhaps we could become civilized!

[VanillaRhapsody]

178. You mean those Libertarian "tech types"

You do know that there is a strong Libertarian streak among the technology geeks right?

[Warpy]

108. One thing I know is that it's now inevitable.

The tipping point has occurred, although you'd never know it from corporate news. People are sick of being worked like galley slaves for diminishing rewards. People are sick of all the bureaucratic roadblocks being thrown up all over the place. People are sick of corporate tyranny at work and governmental tyranny in the two tiered "justice" system. People are sick of the families worse off than they are living in their cars at the malls and in the neighborhoods. People are sick of martinets and their "no tolerance" policies in many areas of life.

People are sick of politicians who work two days a week and complain about the pay which is often five times what most folks make, while listening to corporate lobbyists and taking bribes and never considering how things are affecting the people back home.

People are sick of doing the right things and still ending up crushed by debt with no hope for the future.

The rage is just under the surface. The last time I felt it was in the late 50s in the Jim Crow south.

When it does happen, no one in power will see it coming. But it's coming. I can feel it.

I just hope it's a peaceful one.

[RKP5637]

116. Key words IMO. "The rage is just under the surface." I can feel it too, for

some time now. Eventually, some catalyst will occur.

[PopeOxycontinI]

119. yeah, people are tired of it...

and don't do a damn thing. it will never happen. People, ESPECIALLY the supposedly oh-so-progressive
millenials, just see it as normal. Everyone I know is wrapped in a couple of the following to cope: booze, energy drinks, psychotropic meds, excessive sports and tv watching, working either either way too many or way too few hours,
talk radio, wacko evangelical religion. They bitch. They do nothing, and when I make suggestions, they act shocked
at someone suggesting they do something about what they're bitching about. Lost in a mental fog from those red bulls,
prozac, etc.

[marions ghost]

130. So what positive suggestions do you give them?

---

[marions ghost]

128. ^^^^^ good points

RE People are sick of it. Agreed.

[polichick]

133. "I can feel it." Me too.

[Ilsa]

111. There was a storyline on the cable show "Supernatural"

several years ago where the evil creatures (Leviathan) were feeding people processed foods with additives that made them slow, lazy, goofy and fattened them up for consumption. They sat in front of TVs all day watching junk and letting their brains rot.

I figure the Koch Bros will come up with a similar plan to cull the population in about 25 years or less. Too late for a revolution.

[polichick]

112. I'm thinking that "revolution" might've already happened.

[3catwoman3]

117. I keep getting mental images of...

...Madame DeFarge and guillotines.

[Agnosticsherbet]

118. A slow revolution has be percolating through our system for some time...

and is just coming to be noticed. A good majority of American, most of them under 40, openly embrace marriage equality and broader concepts of civil rights. This is a generational shift. Republicans and the religious right are reactionary forces opposed to those ideas, but they will pass into history.

That is enough of a revolution to me.

[Ichingcarpenter]

122. There is already a revolution happening in money

From a NY times article:




And even if you believe Bitcoin is no more than a fad — and that may well be, given its volatility, security issues and potential regulatory challenges — it has raised the prospect of new virtual currencies and, at the least, cheaper and more efficient transaction mechanisms

“Money is a very interesting philosophical idea in that we have all of humanity agreeing on this system,” said Ray Kurzweil, a futurist, inventor and author. “So even though we may radically disagree on some things — like let’s say the U.S. government and Al Qaeda — they both respect money. So it’s remarkable how we have this universal respect for this very esoteric virtual construct.”

Several prominent dreamers, including Marc Andreessen, who led the team that invented the first commercial web browser, say they believe that new virtual currencies will come to dominate the way we pay for things in the future. “Bitcoin offers a sweeping vista of opportunity to reimagine how the financial system can and should work in the Internet era, and a catalyst to reshape that system,” he wrote recently.

Mr. Kurzweil, however, is not so sure how easy it will be for new currencies to emerge. “We’ve built up respect for currencies associated with nations,” he said. “People respect dollars, mostly, I think, because of the track record, relative stability.”

Other futurists suggest that there will be dozens of ways to pay for products.


http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/04/01/a-revolution-in-money/?_php=true&_type=blogs&src=twr&_r=0

Anyway most agree that the banking system is corrupt and is part of the problem and there is revolutionary change happening even though one is not paying attention


Interesting thread although some accept the status quo

[CFLDem]

123. The country would likely split up before any violent revolution.

There'd probably be some infighting like the Civil War before some opportunistic countries conquers what's left.

But any revolution is likely hundreds, if not over a thousand years from now.

So I agree with the above poster that we should just party in the meantime!

[cantbeserious]

127. The Oligarchs, Corporations And Banks Own And Control The Politicians That Own And Control Us

Nothing will change.

[mikehiggins]

138. In case you haven't noticed the water is rising

As Greenland disappears and the tide comes in on West 23 and Sixth Ave an awful lot of political positions are going to have to be rethought.

Living in New Mexico I don't worry too much about floods but climate change is about much more than melting ice caps.

Just wanted to cheer everyone up.

[randome]

147. Climate change may be the alien invasion we've been waiting for.

What better way to unite us than a global threat? It's too bad we have morons with their eyes shut in Congress but I suspect they'll be the first to go when push comes to shove.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

[polichick]

149. True - as people are hit with the reality of climate change...

it will also hit them that their leaders, while doing little about the biggest crisis the world has faced, have been allowing a few wealthy people and corporations to plunder the country.

[RandoLoodie]

151. Disruption of the supply chain

if groceries don't get restocked for more than a week, all hell would break loose.

Politics would take a back seat to survival in a country full of people who can't live off the land.

Your best bet: if a rapid social breakdown happened, you'd want to be in, (YUP) small town/rural America.

[hobbit709]

157. nothing will happen until the rank and file teabaggers realize they've been had.

[marions ghost]

158. People Power

and the idea that non-violent revolution is possible. Here's a little general essay on it (2008)--doesn't get down to specifics, but makes the basic case for it.

http://www.crmvet.org/info/nvpower.htm

People-power. The power to organize protests that affect public opinion and change the cultural context. To elect or recall politicians. To engage in boycotts and other forms of economic pressure such as strikes. To create and deploy our own "alternative" media to challenge the lies and present a different vision. To use cultural forms such as song, theatre — and in today's world, video and the internet — to speak truth to power (in the Southern Freedom Movement, for example, our freedom songs were as powerful a force for change as were our protests and the two were inseparably linked).

In a democracy, the primary wielders of people-power are membership organizations, mass movements, and unorganized individuals acting in concert. People-power is the only real power that those of us who are neither rich nor at the top of government have.
----------

People-Power

Our mass-produced corporate-marketed culture glorifies and exalts both violence-power and money-power while ignoring or discrediting people-power. But most of us have little access to Money Power and even less access to Violence Power. Yes, we of the 99% can work hard and buy a car, maybe a home, and maybe earn a comfortable life. But few, if any of us, will ever have the kind of wealth from which flows money power in the political sense. Yes, we can use violence against each other, and today's popular music and media glamorizes individual violence. But we have no access to Violence Power in the political sense. We cannot use a pistol to to put a corporate poluter in prison, or to prevent a lover from being deported, or to force a slumlord to repair substandard housing. What we can use is People Power.

Most people do not believe that ultimately government rests on consent of the governed and therefore they remain unaware of the potential power they hold. This idea was articulated in the Declaration of Independence.
----------

The Freedom Movement fundamentally changed our cultural context so that what was normal in the 1950s is now utterly unacceptable. The Walt Disney company, for example, made a movie called Song of the South, a feature film filled with racial stereotypes that are so offensive today that since the early 1970s Disney has never re-released it in its entirety in the U.S, nor made it available for domestic home video or DVD.

Other people-power movements have made similar profound changes in how our society views women and women's roles and how we view the global environment. And today, ongoing people-power movements continue to struggle over issues as varied as immigration and sexuality in its many varied forms.

But since the '60s, efforts to mobilize people-power have been only partially effective in some areas — women, environment, and gay issues, for example — and largely ineffective in other areas — foreign policy, war, economic justice, covert racism, etc. In part, this is because money-power is constantly active in influencing government, while people-power is intermittent and most of the time largely latent. And in part it is because people-power today has become weak and divided. One reason for that weakness is our failure to fully use the power of Nonviolent Resistance.

Both wealth and government do everything they can to maintain their power by making us feel helpless and confused. One way is by telling us that in a democracy it is only through elections that we the people wield power. But for the most part, candidates are chosen, and issues framed, by money-power. Political parties and candidates for office are influenced by money when before they are running for office , when they are running, and after they are elected. Few of the many volunteers who actively work in electoral politics have any actual voice in selecting the candidates, crafting their positions, or shaping the subsequent legislation. The only real role most of us have is voting on election day. The result is that today we have two money parties that both represent the interests of the giant corporations and the wealthy few — one of those parties supports "liberal" social policy such as a woman's right to have an abortion, and the other opposes those rights. But no party represents our interests against those of the wealthy.

Yet, people-power can be exercised through elections — at times people-power has been powerful at the ballot box — but only when there are organizations and movements that educate and mobilize people around their interests OUTSIDE of the electoral process.

People-Power and Nonviolent Resistance

Which brings us to direct action and Nonviolent Resistance. By and large, the strategies of the Freedom Movement — and the strategies of most successful reform movements — were the strategies of Nonviolent Resistance.

In modern times elsewhere in the world there have been instances where revolutionary Nonviolent Resistance was used to overthrow authoritarian governments, but Nonviolent Resistance is more commonly used to reform some aspect of government or society — the U.S. Civil Rights Movement being a case in point. Whether the goal is revolution or reform, the purpose of nonviolent tactics and strategies is to create a political dynamic that organizes and mobilizes people-power while at the same time limiting and restricting the ability of opponents to suppress the movement with violence and money-power. The weakness of money-power is the illegitimacy of actions and policies designed to benefit the wealthy and powerful few at the expense of the many. The strength of nonviolent people-power is inherent in the word "NO." "No" is the most powerful word in the English language:

No, we won't accept segregation
No, we won't silently stand by in the face of injustice
No, we won't believe the lies of President Bush
No, we won't submit to corporate domination our lives

By mobilizing nonviolent popular action, we use our strength against their weakness.

[KamaAina]

160. How would I know?

It will not be televised!

[JI7]

162. so it looks like you need something horrible to happen for their to be a revolution

as for what our leaders do or don't do. the people elect them. this includes many regular people who don't care for environmental , labor and other regulations.

people in texas are voting for what they get with perry and lack of regulations. we see in lousiana even after the BP disaster the people still did not support regulations.

[JI7]

163. Dennis Kucinich is working at Fox News

Kucinich is one of those that many who talk about relvolution on the internet supported. after he lost his election he went to work for Fox News.

he isn't organizing with people for some revolution.

it's mostly what people do on the internet . nothing outside of it.

[Jefferson23]

164. Bookmarking, it is stunning, the power of fear. n/t

[polichick]

175. No kidding - some people are too fearful to...

even talk of such things.

[Jefferson23]

182. My jaw dropped at where the majority fell in your poll...powerful.n/t

[polichick]

195. It really is interesting - I didn't expect those poll results...

Don't know if it's all fear though - might also indicate a lack of faith in our leaders, institutions and fellow citizens, and that actually seems like a sane reaction to the last few decades.

[Jefferson23]

196. I suspect not all, but my reaction was that seems where these feelings of dread stem from.

Good OP, and thoughtful..the more we learn about ourselves the better we may be equipped
to break the status quo going forward.

[polichick]

197. Thanks for your input. imo people are seeing how deeply entrenched...

the "forces of evil" have become - and they don't see YET how those forces can be combated and overcome. The traditional institutions have broken down or been infiltrated to such an extent that it seems like the ultimate "David & Goliath" situation.

[Jefferson23]

200. Overwhelmed, yes and agreed, many don't see it yet..which is understandable. n/t

[Eleanors38]

207. I think the result would have been diff. even 6 yrs ago.

[Savannahmann]

167. I am a writer. I've spent some time considering this very question

It won't be one group, or three groups if it happens. The only way I see it is many groups all settling grudges.

As an example from the news this week. A boy ran in front of a pick up truck in Detroit. The video clearly shows (according to reports) that the driver had no time to stop. It was an accident by any definition of the word. The driver did not attempt to flee the scene. He lept from his truck apparently horrified at what had just happened. He was moving to the child to render what aid he could. The driver was white. The boy, and the crowd was black. The crowd beat the driver nearly to death. The driver is on life support as of the last updat I saw. In a coma, his survival questionable at best. The boy will be out of the hospital long before the driver is released.

So what happened? IMO the crowd reacted to the perception. The blacks have been abused and taken advantage of and mistreated for so long they snapped. This was the moment for revenge at every slight, every brown child who's been killed by a white man. Every cop who as harassed and abused them. The crowd did not see a horrific accident. The nightmare scenario of every driver. They saw a boy laying on the ground, and a man who did not look like them. That was enough, it was too much.

That is how the revolution is going to come. Hatred based upon color, on religion, on rich versus poor right versus left. Baptists will hate Catholics, and they'll both hate Muslims. Jews and Protestents. Neighbors will hate and act out.

Many people use this scenario to arm themselves. They buy canned food and weapons and mounds of bullets. I am not. I won't say I can see no reason to kill another man. But I won't spend my time, or energy, or money, buying hated guns and making plans to kill anyone who is unlike me. I'm not sure I want to live in that world.

The revolution my start as a workers revolt, but it will escalate and become a nightmare of groups seeking revenge for slights and abuses real or imagined. This is the only scenario I've been able to come up with that takes into account all the anger, the resentment, and the hostility.

I hope that I'm already dead when this begins, because I really don't want to see it.

[marions ghost]

171. That's not

what I'd called revolution. That's what I'd call a civil war.

I doubt it.

[polichick]

174. Great example of the way it could go...

Much easier to find scapegoats than to solve such enormous problems - especially in the face of endless greed and corruption.

Doesn't have to go this way though. People can also be ingenious when their backs are against the wall.

[KoKo]

206. That is the gruesome scenario that some of the Middle Eastern Countries are living through.

We have to hope it doesn't come to what you say. But..given the climate in this country ...nothing is impossible as we go forward with the vast inequities dividing the "Haves and Have Nots."

It can't go on like this with Supreme Court Power Grabs and the 1% Having All the Advantages.

Something is going to have to give. The consequences are as unknown as the Egyptian People who overthrew their Dictatorship and ended up Worse Off facing another revolution...if they are allowed.

Hopefully, we can learn from the mistakes we are seeing everywhere...including the Greeks who were many Thousands constantly protesting in the streets and they STILL ended up with IMF Enforced AUSTERITY.

We shall see if there's a better, more clever way to get our elected officials to listen to us instead of the Powerful 1% who own them.

[YoungDemCA]

168. This thread is revealing about the deeply held institutional conservatism...

...of many on the so-called "progressive Left."

And I would be willing to bet that it's worse among the middle and upper-middle classes-who are supposedly more "educated."

[lpbk2713]

173. The Y2K Selection was the tipping point IMO

Momentum started slowly from that point in time but it grew just the same.


The assholes showed gross contempt for our right to vote and now they will pay.

[winter is coming]

180. Most people will go on believing (with varying degrees of hope and despair) that no revolution

is possible. And then suddenly, they'll realize that not only is it possible, it's inevitable, and already under way. I hope it won't be accompanied by much violence, but acknowledge that that's only a hope. And, as someone else said upthread, I'm more worried about the post-revolution years. A revolution does no good if we end up with a different set of people doing the abusing.

[Deep13]

181. look at Syria nt

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

201. More and more leftist 3rd partiers will get elected.

More socialists, more Dem socialists, more various and sundry. If the Dems are smart, they'll start recruiting more socialist types to promote from within the Dem framework, but I doubt they'll be that smart. They seem to be trying to go the opposite direction, with more and more Third Way "moderate" types.

But 'socialist' is losing the stigma the Republicans worked so hard to give it, as younger voters sneer at established party machinery.

[polichick]

208. Liberal Dems are the only ones standing in the way of the TPP...

so it sure does makes sense for people to elect more of them - but does the Dem Party establishment want more of them? And how do the people elect representatives who will protect them if neither major party want such reps?

[RagAss]

204. It will happen in Vermont on a Wednesday.

[Rod Beauvex]

205. The only thing I see coming of an Occupy...

...style revolt is a Tiananmen Square incident.

[Eleanors38]

209. Bravo, Polichick. A poll of our Creature from the Id.

moderated so well and constructively. Who can help but notice that half the respondents not only think a revolution will not occur, but believe the captains of finance will continue their feed until there is nothing left. The Pall of Doom has indeed settled onto DU, and in only a few years.

Your short, clear question in #208 gets down to it, and seems to suggest a tilt toward a populist uprising from without the Party. This is a topic worthy of more serious discussion.

Thanks.

[polichick]

210. Thank you. 'Course I post here hoping that the needed "populist uprising"...

might still come through the party. But if it becomes clear that it won't - the discussion would have to happen someplace else unless DU's stated purpose changed.

If nothing else, these are interesting times!

[polichick]

211. A year later, we're beginning to see what the "revolution" will look like...

Thank-you Bernie!!!

[L0oniX]

212. Kick

[polichick]

213. Thank-you! :)