The Martin Case Has Nothing To Do With Stand Your Ground Laws

[pipoman]

and everything to do with no witnesses. With or without SYG laws on the books, without witnesses Zimmermen is free to make any justification for his actions he wishes. Charges would be difficult or impossible either way.

[Warren Stupidity]

1. Yes under no retreat laws a dishonest actor also could have

Gotten away with this, SYG just makes it easier. Now the shooter no longer has to invent a story that provides for no possibility of safe retreat (in a public space against an unarmed teen age boy) he merely has to claim he felt he was in danger. Why have we made it easier for sociopathic killers to commit murder and get away with it?

[aikoaiko]

32. I think you are overstating the SYG provision

Most stand your gun laws refer to a reasonable belief that one was in grave danger. Those reasons must be made apparent. There are no references to mere feelings of threat in any SYG law that I know of.

You are correct though that SYG laws make it a bit easier for police and prosecutors to use their discretion to not prosecute based on how someone came to have reasonable beliefs of danger.

My 2 cents.

[Johnson20]

37. IMO Duty to Retreat laws, do nothing but empower bullies and gang bangers.n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

38. murder and violent crime rates were declining under the traditional self defense laws

so you do not have much in the way of actual data to validate your claim.

[Johnson20]

39. Excuse me but please define

"traditional self defense laws," as they vary markedly from state to state. I can unarguably state that gun sales ccw permits and the passage of numerous castle doctrine and no duty to retrest laws have skyrocketed in thepast 15 yrs. Do yeah think that might have anything to do with the drop in crime rates?

[Warren Stupidity]

40. no they have nothing to do with declining crime rates

But if you think they do please provide the statistical study from a reputable non-partisan source that establishes that SYG and CCW correlate to violent crime rate decreases, or increases for that matter.

Traditional self defense laws: by that I mean both CD and Obligation to retreat, both of which have existed for a long time, in some cases for centuries. SYG outside your home is what is new and, in my opinion idiotic.

[Johnson20]

42. As you probably know

there is a lot of work and studies, none of which would satify you as they tend to refute the meme. What do you attribite it to, a more gentel less violent society?

Unfortunitly I have to catch a plane now and won't be available for a few days. Going to the Mayo in Phoenix.

[Warren Stupidity]

43. One interesting explanation is the abortion rate.

However there are, as far as I know, no good studies (i.e. not agenda driven by either side) that support you. Feel free to provide a link whenever you can.

[Major Hogwash]

2. Do they have those kind of laws in your state?

I don't think they have them here.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

3. Most states have some version of no retreat laws

which includes Castle Doctrine

[Major Hogwash]

7. California does not have SYG laws nor do they have Castle Doctrine laws.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. You might want to reread the CA law

Also what is done in Marin County is not what is done in Kern County.

[Major Hogwash]

9. I looked it up already.

[X_Digger]

10. *cough* .. You might want to check out..

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/1/8/1/s198.5

CAL. PEN. CODE § 198.5 : California Code - Section 198.5

[div class='excerpt']198.5. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. That is classic Castle Doctrine (I tried to give Hogwash an opportunity to save face)

CA law does not have the civil liability waivers that other states have, but it certainly precludes any duty to retreat when in your home.

One of the subtleties that many of the those enthralled in their outrage at SYG do not realize is that Castle Doctrine is a subset of SYG and that just about every state has slightly different rules. The blanket poutrage is ridiculous.

[Major Hogwash]

14. Right. And you are who, exactly?

Save face? That's a good one.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. You are the one who made the ill informed false statement...

I am one of many who teaches CA firearms classes (among other things)

[Major Hogwash]

24. Hahahahaha!!!!

And I'm not even trying!!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

26. You live up to your nom de plume well

[Major Hogwash]

29. Hahahahaha!!!!!!!

That's an old one.

[Major Hogwash]

13. Not the same thing.

So, now you know.

[X_Digger]

17. Castle Doctrine's central tenet..

Is that change in presumption. No duty to retreat from one's home.

Another link for you..

http://www.courts.ca.gov/partners/documents/calcrim_juryins.pdf

[div class='excerpt']A defendant is not required to retreat. He or she is entitled to
stand his or her ground and defend himself or herself and, if reasonably necessary, to pursue an assailant until the danger of (death/great bodily injury/ <insert forcible and atrocious crime&gt has passed. This is so even if safety could have
been achieved by retreating.

The People have the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the {attempted} killing was not justified. If the People have not met this burden, you must find the defendant not guilty of (murder/ or manslaughter/ attempted murder/ or attempted voluntary manslaughter).

[Major Hogwash]

18. Not the same thing.

For the 3rd time.
Proving once and for all time, 3 times is not a charm.

[X_Digger]

19. Then why don't you educate us, hmm?

What exactly do you consider 'castle doctrine'?

[Major Hogwash]

25. Is that my job?

Do you live in California?
Can you hunt someone down the street who is walking away from you?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. I do and the statement you made had nothing to do with hunting someone down

CA does have a mild form of Castle Doctrine

[Major Hogwash]

28. Hahahaha!!!

And I'm not even trying.

[X_Digger]

30. Are you refusing to back up your assertion?

We're just supposed to take your word for it?

Do you even *know* what castle doctrine is?

Inquiring minds want to know. I'll pull up a chair, the podium is yours.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. Its clear that no matter how well you present the facts from any number

of sources, this one is going to cling tight to their ignorance and remain in denial

[Johonny]

4. correct me if I'm wrong but the officers cited said law as the reason for style of investigation

on the day of the crime. So it has something to do with how the machinery of the criminal or lack of criminal investigation. It's impossible to know how the criminal investigation would have turned out had they acted quicker and more fully without the law.

[gratuitous]

6. I think you're correct

One of the things any new law or regulation does is create a level of uncertainty for the people who have to enforce it. Whether it's NFL officials trying to figure out the new rules on helmet-to-helmet hits, or police trying to figure out the stand your ground rules, real world applications are a lot trickier than abstractions discussed in a committee hearing. And when the new law or rule is promulgated for an ulterior motive, as I think the stand your ground laws have been, it makes it all the worse. Police who are too inquisitive about citizen shootings run the risk of being labeled too hard on our law-abiding citizens by certain special interest groups, and who needs that headache on top of everything else?

Even though it was obvious in some quarters that the law would lead to some people acting out "Death Wish" fantasies, legislators purposely overlooked the danger in order to curry favor with groups that would fill their re-election coffers. And when the bodies hit the floor, everyone throws up their hands and says, "Whoa! Nobody could have seen that coming!"

[COLGATE4]

5. No, it does. With SYG in place the State has the burden

of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the shooter was not reasonably in fear for his life. Under the preexisting law of self defense, the shooter had the burden of proving that s/he was reasonably in fear for his/her life to justify the shooting.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

12. That is true in Florida, but not in all states

No Duty to Retreat, including Castle Doctrine, laws vary from state to state. Those subtleties are important in the discussion.

[COLGATE4]

16. Well, we are talking about Trayvon, aren't we?

And thank you for confirming what I said. BTW, where do you practice law?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

22. When you speak in generalities about things where the details are important

expect to be called on them.

Those in deep poutrage over SYG need to understand its roots, that it includes Castle Doctrine, and that it varies, in some cases tremendously, from state to state.

[COLGATE4]

36. Thanks again for the lesson. By the way,

you didn't tell me where you practice law?

[mmonk]

15. It has everything to do with it.

The person would be arrested before and held at least for questioning. It has everything to do with ALEC model bills and a changing political system.

[Ganja Ninja]

23. If Zimmerman walks it will be because of lack of a proper investigation.

You can't prosecute someone if you don't try to build a case. From what I've seen and heard on this the investigator wanted to charge him but was turned down. There's a whole lot of question regarding the conduct of the police and the prosecutor that night. How hard did they try to build a case? Were they even allowed to do a proper investigation? There are other ways to convict someone of a crime besides just eye witnesses.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

31. There are a whole lot of holes in what is known publicly

At this point Sanford PD may not have scrubbed the case...too many of the original claims *appear* to have been false.

We do know that the State Attorney is sitting on everything of factual value and even after 5+ days on the case, the new one is still going down the Grand Jury route.

It is infuriating

[Major Hogwash]

33. Good point.

Chris Matthews talked about this yesterday on his program, as did Ed.

[Doctor_J]

34. Bullshit. If not for SYG he would at least have been arrested

He is basing his defense on SYG, so your claim is ridiculous

[ProgressiveProfessor]

35. His attorney said otherwise at one point

[Warren Stupidity]

41. his attorney is paid and obliged to act only in his client's best interests

and is hardly an objective source.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

44. His attorney is also the one who will craft Zimmerman's defense...

Is there a more authoritative source than that for if Zimmerman is going to use a SYG based defense?