General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsTrayvon Martin/George Zimmerman--a charitable, tragic reading
It saddens me that all of the various baggage of race, politics, etc. have permeated this case so thoroughly. So I'd like to just give a sad reading to everything:
A young man is dead. Shot for whatever reason, but certainly not a reason, no matter the evidence, that would warrant his life being taken. His mother and father and friends must be experiencing such loss.
The man who shot him: whatever problems he had, whatever "cop-mentality," whatever prejudices he had when seeing a young black teen in a hoodie, I have little doubt that the fact of killing a man is very hard on him. He will bear the responsibility for taking another man's life.
Let us not impute the worst of intentions onto either man. Whatever evidence surfaces, I have little doubt about the tragedy of that night. I doubt very much Mr. Zimmerman is a hostile racist or that he desired to shoot Mr. Martin because Mr. martin was black. I imagine he wanted to "serve and protect," but Mr. Zimmerman was a weak man, with weak thoughts, was scared, and killed a man for no reason.
Mr. Martin, even if all of the various stories are coming out are true, even if he was high and paranoid and confronted Mr. Zimmerman, did not deserve to be shot. Hell, he didn't deserve to be stopped. But he was, and my post isn't about right or wrong. It's simply about the suffering involved. Mr. Martin is dead, for no reason; his parents have to deal with that. Mr. Zimmerman has to deal with the fact that he's killed a man for no reason. Think about that charitably. Think about Mr. Zimmerman's conscience at this point (for only he knows the real truth of all of this). Do I want to make him a victim? No, of course not. But I imagine he suffers from what he's done. If he's criminally liable so be it. But even then, and even if he's acquitted, he'll still suffer, because he took the life of an innocent man. And perhaps he had good reason( i.e., acquitted by the law)--but he'll still suffer because he knows Trayvon was ultimately innocent.
Let justice run its course. But justice won't undo the tragedy of this mess. Justice doesn't undo the past. Only fools think does. Even if Mr. Zimmerman is convicted (or even put to death--God, I hope not), Mr. Martin is still dead, Mr. Zimmerman still killed a man, and two sets of parents have lost their children. This is a tragedy. There is no undoing it (hence the very definition of tragedy). All of the calls for justice here will not undo anything.
It's just sad.
And I'm probably wrong about all of this.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)Regardless of what happened, Z stood there with a gun listening to a kid acreaming for help and then he fired his gun.
Xipe Totec
(43,890 posts)Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)he had multiple opportunities to diffuse the situation or not get into it in the first place.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)EmeraldCityGrl
(4,310 posts)sociopath and the crime was premeditated. The call to police from Zimmerman could have been his
attempt to provide documentation for the crime he intended to commit. He DID NOT expect to be told to
stand down and obviously disregarded that ditate.
I wouldn't waste too much time feeling "sad" for Mr. Zimmerman. Your compassion seems misplaced
to say the least.
ithinkmyliverhurts
(1,928 posts)"You are in assuming Zimmerman has a conscience. "
***Yes, that is the whole premise of a charitable reading.
My compassion is never misplaced. I obviously feel for the man who was killed and his family. But, curses my bleeding heart, I feel for the man who did the killing because from what I've read he didn't seem to get his jollies from it. He will live with this. It's sad.
Horrible confessions: I feel bad for people put to death because of horrible crimes because I assume that they know they've taken a life. Unlike you, I don't think "justice" can just sweep everything under the rug, make everything o.k. Because I feel for a killer doesn't mean I think he's innocent. I feel for him because I imagine that he has to wrestle with taking the life of another human person. That's got to be tough.
Or maybe not, according to you.
EmeraldCityGrl
(4,310 posts)"But, curses my bleeding heart, I feel for the man who did the killing because from what I've read he didn't seem to get his jollies from it. "
And the following statement speaks to capital punishment when you state "put" to death. That is a completely different subject.
"Horrible confessions: I feel bad for people put to death because of horrible crimes because I assume that they know they've taken a life.
I don't know what planet you live on but on Earth men violently, deliberately murder their fellow human beings everyday. They rape
infants, mutilate women, ethnically cleanse millions. We have laws to protect society from these monsters. People are asking for the law to be applied to this case by arresting the suspect and investigating the case. Then Mr. Zimmerman will get a taste of what "tough" really is.
ithinkmyliverhurts
(1,928 posts)"Please share what you have read to justify the following statement:
"But, curses my bleeding heart, I feel for the man who did the killing because from what I've read he didn't seem to get his jollies from it."
***First, this isn't personal between the two of us. Yeah, I've heard about how Mr. Zimmerman cried for quite some time about killing Mr. Martin. I would think this is a natural response to killing a man when you didn't intend to do so out of cold blood. I think Mr. Zimmerman probably panicked and now feels remorse. Sorry I just don't see him as a monster. A murderer, maybe. But a heartless monster--not from what I've read. Does this make him innocent? Not in the least. But if he didn't kill with premeditation and it was a moment of fear (however much Mr. Zimmerman brought it on himself), then I imagine his conscience will suffer.
"I don't know what planet you live on but on Earth men violently, deliberately murder their fellow human beings everyday. They rape
infants, mutilate women, ethnically cleanse millions. We have laws to protect society from these monsters. People are asking for the law to be applied to this case by arresting the suspect and investigating the case. Then Mr. Zimmerman will get a taste of what "tough" really is."
*** I truly hope someone like you is not on this jury. You just equated the man with Dahmer and Hitler. I was assuming we could make elementary distinctions.
By the way, I oppose the death penalty in all cases--especially since black Americans are disproportionately put to death in an unfair system. Go figure.
EmeraldCityGrl
(4,310 posts)"By the way, I oppose the death penalty in all cases--especially since black Americans are disproportionately put to death in an unfair system. Go figure. "
I suppose the source reporting Mr. Zimmerman crying for sometime was the Sanford Police. The only remorse he feels
is that this case has drawn world wide attention. And you are correct, I would ask to be excused from this jury.
handmade34
(22,756 posts)to mourn a life and be sad for tragedy and injustice... compassion in all its forms is a noble human feeling and one we deal with in varying degrees.
The situation is the result of institutional racism and a sense of fear that is pervasive across the country right now.
It is this tragedy, and the tragedy of so many people not being able to see what a fine, intelligent man (and family) we have as our President just because he is a man of color. So sad and unfortunate for the country as a whole...
That said, this situation IS race and politics and culture... it is fear and ignorance and our inability to respect and work together... it is money and power and control... it is everything that is wrong in this country right now...
(just the desire for "gated communities" in our cities is a sad reflection of what we have become)
tularetom
(23,664 posts)of black friends.
Whereas in reality his father was a judge and his mother was Peruvian (hardly a nationality most of us think of when we hear the word "Latino" . (And why does that statement make think that his father smelled of elderberries and his mother was a hamster?).
Anyway, I have no knowledge of Zimmerman's racist tendencies or lack of same, although the reference to "fucking coons" could possibly be a clue. I think he panicked and shot the kid because he was scared shitless, and his father pulled some strings to make the cops back off.
I also think it will be very difficult to keep the lid on all of this and that there are so many people involved in the cover up that eventually someone is going to blab. And if Zimmerman is tried and convicted of this crime, and sentenced to prison, it will in effect be a death sentence unless he is kept in isolation. Even if he walks, he is going to be one scared sumbitch for the rest of his miserable fucking life.
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)like someone who has black friends, (we're all suspicious doncha know, whether we're picking up the garbage or a 7 year old child) and the Fucking Coons, Comments DOES NOT STRIKE ME AS SOMEONE who has black friends or desires them. Joe Oliver AIN'T FOOLING NOONE! Brother man is 53 BLOODY YEARS OLD and he expects us to believe that he's best buddies/friends/pals with Zimmy? I may be many things, TulareTom but S.T.U.P.I.D ain't one of them.
MrBig
(640 posts)I wish more people would follow that line of thinking.
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)his worst intentions were clear for anyone to see. His worst intentions was buried a few weeks ago.
MrBig
(640 posts)There are shades of gray all over this case. Quite frankly, I don't know what happened that night. None of us do exactly. None of us were in either of their heads. None of us were witnesses. So to put the worst intentions onto Zimmerman would be postulating at best based on a media who's sole job is to sensationalize things and bits and pieces of facts that have been made public (an incomplete police report and 911 phone calls).
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)It was because of his racist attitude that he saw suspicious intentions in that boy, followed him and SHOT HIM!! So sorry if that offends you. I don't see the world in colors of people. We are all HUMAN BEINGS!! Homo sapiens sapiens, NOT Homo sapiens americanus, Homo sapiens africanus, Homo sapiens, Asiaticus, etc. HOMO SAPIENS !!!
However, there are still SICK people in the world who seem to think and believe that somehow their skin color makes them better than their darker skinned brothers. Racism Exists and it exists in all groups of people. I have experienced it first hand, MANY TIMES. Guess, it's my lovely golden caramel skin. My husband is Czech I have a nephew inBosnia, ( AfroBosnian), another nephew in Brazil, another nephew who SinoAfrican, (actually pinoy), have two gggreat grandfathers from China, a ggggggrandfather from Bavaria, a french great grandmonther, a moorish great grandmother, and Irish greatgrandfather, am hell, if I were to hate people because their color, I would hate myself.
Man, if quacks, if it walk like one, it flaps like a duck...guess what? It ain't a moose. He's a racist murderer. I know racism when I see it, MrBig. I grew up hearing about the "nightriders" trying to kill my greatgrandfather in 1911, a obviously sick old farmer who tried to set fire to the home my grandmother was in with her newborn son in 1938; knowing my uncle wasnt able to cast a vote until he left his home state (S.C.), without risking his life....I know racism and I know it when I see it.
MrBig
(640 posts)And I apologize for the harshness of my previous post.
I know racism is still alive and well in this country. I see it everyday in my profession. Discrimination against any person who skin is brown thinking that they are in the country illegally. Having their papers checked because they made the big mistake of fishing in a pond without a license. And, quite honestly, it is my belief Trayvon was murdered because he was black. But that's what it is, a belief. Not a fact.
You are correct, a 17 year old child was murdered. But I will not begin to guess as to what Zimmerman was thinking. It sounds from the 911 calls like he truly thought there was a threat in his neighborhood. Was it a perceived threat because Trayvon was black? Or was it something else, something in Zimmerman's past? Or was it something completely different from that? I have no idea, and really no one other than George Zimmerman knows to 100% certainty.
niyad
(113,325 posts)CHILD.
the fact that you persist in calling him a MAN makes me call into question everything else you said.
considering zimmerman's history of violence, of his behavior in calling the cops every five minutes, etc. I find your assessment of his "conscience" almost beyond naive belief.
if it makes you feel better, fine. other people are also entitled to their view that zimmerman is a racist, violent jerk with no demonstrable conscience at all.
flamingdem
(39,313 posts)"I have little doubt that the fact of killing a man is very hard on him."
please ... "very hard on him" ... the guy is a not okay don't depend on anything being "hard" on him, he is not normal
normal people feel remorse ... normal people don't kill in this manner