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FarLeftFist

(6,161 posts)
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 06:00 PM Mar 2012

Did John Roberts Throw A Wrench In Major Argument Against ‘Obamacare’?

In a little-noticed exchange Monday, conservative Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts may have tipped his hand that he’s entertaining the possibility that the health care law’s individual mandate can be upheld on a constitutional basis that’s different from the one supporters and opponents have made central to their arguments.

-SNIP-

In an exchange with a plaintiffs attorney, Roberts suggested he’s skeptical that the mandate and its penalties can be treated separately and may have opened the door to finding that Congress’ power to impose the mandate springs from its broad taxing power.

“The idea that the mandate is something separate from whether you want to call it a penalty or tax just doesn’t seem to make much sense,” Roberts said, over strong objections from attorney Gregory Katsas. “It’s a command. A mandate is a command. If there is nothing behind the command, it’s sort of, well what happens if you don’t file the mandate? And the answer is nothing. It seems very artificial to separate the punishment from the crime. … Why would you have a requirement that is completely toothless? You know, buy insurance or else. Or else what? Or else nothing.”

That wasn’t what the challengers wanted to hear. A key feature of their argument is that the individual mandate is distinct from the fine the government will assess on people who fail to purchase insurance. They say the case isn’t about Congress’ power to tax or penalize people but rather about its power to force people to take actions they may not want to take. Roberts dismissed this distinction.

The rest: http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/03/did-john-roberts-throw-a-wrench-in-major-argument-against-obamacare.php?ref=fpnewsfeed

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Did John Roberts Throw A Wrench In Major Argument Against ‘Obamacare’? (Original Post) FarLeftFist Mar 2012 OP
Of course he'd dismiss it, he's a corporatist - and mandating someone..... matmar Mar 2012 #1
+1 Vincardog Mar 2012 #2
That's the thing, you're NOT mandated to buy a product, you can choose to NOT buy it if you want. FarLeftFist Mar 2012 #3
And then pay the penalty. progressoid Mar 2012 #6
Except there is NO PENALTY Bandit Mar 2012 #8
No penalty? hughee99 Mar 2012 #12
Then there is no point in the lawsuit. progressoid Mar 2012 #16
Insurance cos have to spend 85 percent of the money they take in on health care. emulatorloo Mar 2012 #4
Well duh. If Republicans acutally looked into it, they would probably approve of the mandate. progressoid Mar 2012 #5
They DO approve of the "individual mandate"....SECRETLY BlueDemKev Mar 2012 #10
heh Schema Thing Mar 2012 #7
I'm still not convinced the Roberts court won't louis-t Mar 2012 #9
Of course they are going to uphold the law me b zola Mar 2012 #11
Is he positioning the court to punt? Motown_Johnny Mar 2012 #13
They really had to take it, because the circuit courts disagreed. bornskeptic Mar 2012 #14
thanks for that Motown_Johnny Mar 2012 #15
 

matmar

(593 posts)
1. Of course he'd dismiss it, he's a corporatist - and mandating someone.....
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 06:04 PM
Mar 2012

to purchase a profit-driven insurance product is right down his alley.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
12. No penalty?
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 07:28 PM
Mar 2012

What happened to the $95 in 2014, $325 in 2015 and $625 in 2017 or 2.5% of net income, whichever is greater? I thought that was there when the law passed?

progressoid

(49,991 posts)
16. Then there is no point in the lawsuit.
Tue Mar 27, 2012, 01:01 AM
Mar 2012

If one can simply refuse without penalty, there is no harm done and therefore no basis for a lawsuit.

emulatorloo

(44,130 posts)
4. Insurance cos have to spend 85 percent of the money they take in on health care.
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 06:30 PM
Mar 2012

That's leaves 15 percent overhead. This is why they hate the law and are paying the wingnuts to get rid of it.

progressoid

(49,991 posts)
5. Well duh. If Republicans acutally looked into it, they would probably approve of the mandate.
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 06:32 PM
Mar 2012

Since it was originally a Republican idea.

As to why Democrats think it is so great...that's a whole nother can of worms.

BlueDemKev

(3,003 posts)
10. They DO approve of the "individual mandate"....SECRETLY
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 07:09 PM
Mar 2012

...but it was so politically-expedient for the Republicans to simply oppose Obama's health care reform efforts so they just call the law "socialized medicine" and other garbage in the hopes that enough people are stupid enough to believe them.

Schema Thing

(10,283 posts)
7. heh
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 06:45 PM
Mar 2012

I didn't realize they were trying to make this case: "A key feature of their argument is that the individual mandate is distinct from the fine the government will assess on people who fail to purchase insurance."


Like Roberts said, not it's not. Don't be silly.

louis-t

(23,295 posts)
9. I'm still not convinced the Roberts court won't
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 07:08 PM
Mar 2012

throw the whole thing out. I think it will be a strict party-line vote.

 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
13. Is he positioning the court to punt?
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 08:41 PM
Mar 2012

If the penalty is a tax then they can't rule on the unfairness of the tax until someone is harmed by it.

I have no idea why they would take the case now if only to punt but this court makes no sense to me anyways. Maybe it was just a way to look like they tried to overturn it but couldn't at this time. It gives the (R)s something to continue to campaign against this year.

I think the law will be upheld but if they do punt then this must have all been political theater from the Supreme Court and that would be a new low, even for them.

bornskeptic

(1,330 posts)
14. They really had to take it, because the circuit courts disagreed.
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 10:14 PM
Mar 2012

If they decide that they can't rule on the mandate until someone is affected by it, which I think is the proper position, they still need to take the case in order to establish that.

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