From a Boeing 777 pilot re Malaysian airliner:

[trof]

FWIW, got this email from a pilot buddy today.
I never flew the trip-7. My last aircraft was the B-747.
trof

From a retired AF colonel, now a pilot for AA, flying the Boeing 777.

All,

Just a quick update with what I know about the Malaysia 777 disappearance. The Boeing 777 is the airplane that I fly. It is a great, safe airplane to fly. It has, for the most part, triple redundancy in most of its systems, so if one complete system breaks (not just parts of a system), there are usually 2 more to carry the load. It's also designed to be easy to employ so 3rd world pilots can successfully fly it. Sometimes, even that doesn't work.as the Asiana guys in San Fran showed us. A perfectly good airplane on a beautiful, sunny day.and they were able to crash it. It took some doing, but they were able to defeat a bunch of safety systems and get it to where the airplane would not help them and the pilots were too stupid/scared/unskilled/tired to save themselves

There's many ways to fly the 777 and there are safety layers and redundancies built into the airplane. It is tough to screw up and the airplane will alert you in many ways (noises, alarms, bells and whistles, plus feed back thru the control yoke and rudder pedals and throttles. In some cases the airplane's throttles 'come alive' if you are going too slow for a sustained period of time) All designed to help. But, it's also non-intrusive. If you fly the airplane in the parameters it was designed for, you will never know these other things exist. The computers actually 'help' you and the designers made it for the way pilots think and react. Very Nice.

Now to Malaysia. There are so many communication systems on the airplane. 3 VHF radios. 2 SatCom systems. 2 HF radio systems. Plus Transponders and active, 'real time' monitoring through CPDLC (Controller to Pilot Data Link Clearance) and ADS B(Air Data Service) through the SatCom systems and ACARS (Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System) thru the VHF, HF and SatCom systems. The air traffic controllers can tell where we are, speed, altitude, etc as well as what our computers and flight guidance system has set into our control panels. Big Brother for sure! However, most of these things can be turned off.

But, there are a few systems that can't be turned off and one, as reported by the WSJ, is the engine monitoring systems (not sure what the acronym for that is, but I'm sure there is one..it's aviation.there has to be an acronym!). The Malaysia airplane, like our 777-200's, use Rolls Royce Trent Engines (as a piece of trivia..Rolls Royce names their motors after rivers..because they always keep on running!) Rolls Royce leases these motors to us and they monitor them all the time they are running. In fact, a few years back, one of our 777's developed a slow oil leak due and partial equipment failure. It wasn't bad enough to set off the airplane's alerting system, but RR was looking at it on their computers. They are in England, they contact our dispatch in Texas, Dispatch sends a message to the crew via SatCom in the North Pacific, telling them that RR wants them to closely monitor oil pressure and temp on the left engine. Also, during the descent, don't retard the throttle to idle.keep it at or above a certain rpm. Additionally, they wanted the crew to turn on the engine 'anti ice' system as the heats some of the engine components.

The crew did all of that and landed uneventfully, but after landing and during the taxi in, the left engine shut itself down using it's redundant, computerized operating system that has a logic tree that will not allow it to be shut down if the airplane is in the air.only on the ground. Pretty good tech. Anyway, the point was, that RR monitors those engines 100% of the time they are operating. The WSJ reported that RR indicated the engines on the Malaysia 777 were running normally for 4 to 5 hours after the reported disappearance. Malaysia denies this. We shall see.

Parting shot. If you travel by air, avoid the 3rd world airlines. Their operators and maintenance are substandard. Substandard when traveling by Bus or Boat isn't so bad when the engines quit. You just stop on the water or by the side of the road. Not so in airplanes. My piece of advice..if traveling by air use 1st world airlines. So, that leaves USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, most of Europe, Japan and just a few others. Avoid the rest..just my opinion. If you get a real deal on air fare from 'Air Jibuti'. skip it. Oh, there are a lot of the 'developing' countries that use expatriate pilots from the 1st world. Emirates and Air Jordan come to mind and are very safe. As is Cathay Pacific. Air Pakistan and Egypt Air.not so much. Do the research or just drop me a note. I'll give you my opinion.

And don't EVER get in an Airbus!!

That is all!

[djean111]

1. I seem to remember that getting on an Aeroflot airplane was supposed quite the gamble, and that

when a plane did not show up people just assumed the worst. Also heard that while they have a really large number of reported accidents, there were many more that were not reported.

[trof]

26. I was once on an Aeroflot airplane. A Tupolev someting or other, I think.

I was with TWA and we parked next to it on the ramp at Athens.
We were on a short stop to refuel on the way to Cairo.

We decide to go 'visit' them.
My cabin attendants filled a couple of barf bags with TWA stuff...plastic 'pilot wings', propeller shaped drink stirrers, playing cards, etc for 'trade goods'.
I don't remember that we got anything in return.

The Aeroflot cabin attendants were very friendly except for one older woman who would not let us look in the cockpit.
I think she was KGB.

The inside of the plane looked like a 1950s Greyhound bus.
Wire mesh overhead racks with no doors.
Seats didn't recline.
No drop down trays.
Pretty grim by our standards.

[Ms. Toad]

36. Worse than not reclining -

They flop forward if they are bumped and no one is sitting in them.

Food is served family style - with a big pot of soup passed down a row.

Quite the trip when made at least 2 Aeroflot flights in the late 80s. (Not to mention no security at all at the airport.)

[Rhiannon12866]

73. I've been on a few Aeroflot planes and they vary pretty widely

The one we flew into Moscow on had seats and trays missing, while our internal flight, from Sochi to St. Petersburg, was one of the best flights I've ever been on, pristine interior with a hydrating mist floating in. One thing I've thought was pretty cool was that Russians can bring their dogs right on the plane.

[TorchTheWitch]

76. during the cold war we liked to call them Aeroflop or Aeroplop

That is those folk that were penned up in the various embassies in Moscow.

IIRC there was also the Order of Lemon (instead of Lenin) that was an apple or pear suspended on a ribbon and awarded to anyone in our embassy that got the boot from the country for being declared persona non grata whether through their own efforts or in retaliation for the US giving the boot to a Soviet in the embassy in the US... both countries apparently liked to engage in retaliatory booting.

[thereismore]

2. That is very interesting, however

the parting shot at an Airbus betrays lack of objectivity.

[trof]

4. I don't think so.

Most pilots I know don't like the Airbus overly automated flight systems.
Including me.

I don't want a system that automatically takes the flying of the plane away from me.

[alcibiades_mystery]

5. Agreed...fanboyism at its worst

I was with the writer until it turned into a juvenile screed a la Microsoft--Apple: ruined the whole thing for me, and painted the barbs at "third world" countries - like Korea! - in a really suspect light. (Notice that "developing" was put in har har quotation marks, while "third world" was stated seriously).

Silly.

[trof]

15. Not familiar with the term 'fanboyism', but...

I'll look it up.

I was an airline pilot for 35+ years.
The last 10 with Nippon Cargo Airlines, a Japanese cargo carrier.
Initially, all of our pilots were Americans on 'lease' from Trans World Airlines (TWA).

Later we had Irish pilots (from Aerlingus) and South Africans (from SAA).
They were as good or better than the U.S. pilots.

The Japanese pilots...not so much.
A few I worked with (supervisors, check pilots) were competent, some were not, but their mindset is much different from ours.
They can quote you the 'book', chapter and verse.

Much of education in Japan, at least what I was exposed to in going through their B-747 training, is rote learning.
Memorize, memorize, memorize.

Get into a situation that is not explicitly covered by a flying handbook procedure and they're lost.

The Asiana flight he mentions boggles my mind.
I remember it well and remember wondering how it could possibly have happened.

[A HERETIC I AM]

25. Over the years, I've come to understand this is true:

Last edited Mon Mar 24, 2014, 08:21 PM - Edit history (1)

Much of education in Japan, at least what I was exposed to in going through their B-747 training, is rote learning.
Memorize, memorize, memorize. Get into a situation that is not explicitly covered by a flying handbook procedure and they're lost.

It was often said during the Cold War years that the US pilots had little to fear of the Soviet ones as the adversary was taught "by the book" and had little room for critical thinking and a method to solve the unexpected. Edit to add that I have read the same applies to numerous other cultures, the Japanese among them.

Though I have never been a licensed pilot, I have been an aviation enthusiast for as long as I can remember and am fascinated by aircraft of all types. I was this ---><--- close to signing on the bottom line for the Army's Warrant Officer program in the early 80's. I wanted to fly helicopters so bad I could taste it. The reason why I didn't go in involve another post. Suffice to say I know I have the aptitude and would probably have been killed in a V-22 test program crash by now!

I have read with great interest your aviation posts over the years Trof, and I must say, I would relish the opportunity to sit with you over a beer or 5 and pick your brain on your history. You have my utmost admiration for your experiences at the "sharp end" as the English say, particularly your 747 driving.

"If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going"

Screw anyone who thinks such a sentiment is "Fanboyism"

Let me see an airbus take this kind of damage and still get its passengers home;

Flak damage on a Boeing built B-17 "Superfortress"


Boeing Built 737-200 Aloha Airlines flight 243, 1988


Boeing built B-52 "Stratofortress" suffered from "Clean Air Turbulence"




When Airbus has 80 years of experience building airplanes and has participated as a builder in several major wars, THEN I'll have confidence in their product. Until then, not so much.

[Ptah]

27. +1 from a USAF B-52 Avionics tech.

1970-1974 E-4 ret.

[A HERETIC I AM]

29. Backatya, bud.

[trof]

18. OK, looked it up. Your use doesn't fit.

[WinkyDink]

14. Airbus-300.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

19. What about it?

Airbus stopped making the A300 in 2006, and in the U.S. they are now used only for freight. As far as I can tell only Iran Air, Mahan Air (Iran), Thai Airways, Kuwait Airways, Monarch, China Eastern and Tunis Air still use it in passenger service.

[WinkyDink]

79. Pardon me; I meant THESE Airbuses:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidents_and_incidents_involving_the_Airbus_A320_family

[GreenPartyVoter]

3. Been thinking of you as this situation has unfolded. Thanks for

passing this along.

[trof]

6. Thanks.

Haven't weighed in because I know nothing about the 777.

[pangaia]

32. You should check out Yahoo sometime.

There are hundreds of people there who know all about the 777.

Thanks for your post. I really enjoyed it.
As a former ppl and now just an aviation lover..

[Violet_Crumble]

7. Dumb question time...

Anyway, the point was, that RR monitors those engines 100% of the time they are operating. The WSJ reported that RR indicated the engines on the Malaysia 777 were running normally for 4 to 5 hours after the reported disappearance.

There'd be a lot of RR engines up in the air at any given time. While RR would monitor engine performance, if something went wrong, wouldn't it be a case of luck that someone at RR is looking at that particular engine in real time and can alert the airline that something's wrong? I'm thinking of the broken oil pipe that led to an uncontained engine explosion on a Qantas A-380 a few years ago. The pilots had no idea anything was wrong till the engine exploded, but from what I saw on the episode of Air Crash Investigation last week, it all happened so quickly that even if RR was real-time monitoring it, they wouldn't have had time to warn them.

As a very scared flier, I already have a very limited list of airlines I'll fly on. They're Qantas, Air New Zealand, and British Airways. Which works well if I stick to this part of the world or fly from here to NZ or Europe, but if I ever go further afield, I may be in trouble

[jeff47]

16. Presumably RR has software looking at the data, which alerts the humans to anything odd (nt)

[A HERETIC I AM]

28. Bad indications on a computer screen with dozens of such lines can be highlited in red

It is a simple thing to allow someone monitoring a screen with dozens or even hundreds of lines to quickly notice something is wrong on one of those lines.

I worked as a stockbroker from '06 through 09 and I was looking at two monitors all day. One of the programs I had available was a listing for each and every traded stock on every exchange. I could enter and look at all of the Russell 2000, for instance. It was easy to see which was going up (green numbers) and which was going down (red numbers)

Not as difficult as you might think.

And BTW and FWIW, it is possible but not technically legal or ethical to fly Qantas from New York to LA. Just buy the fare to Sydney, fly it with a carry-on and get off when the flight stops at LAX! It will just cost you the remaining miles from LA to Sydney or wherever!

[Blue_Tires]

8. Thanks for this...

Last edited Tue Mar 25, 2014, 07:29 PM - Edit history (1)

And be proud of your hours in the 707-727-747, since they were the last "real" airframes to leave Everett

I can't quite agree with the comment about airlines from developing nations...Some are professional, safe and very well run while some are not (just like all the household name airlines)...FWIW, Malaysia has a mostly decent record -- I can only count two hull losses in their history, and one of those was due to terrorism...(of course on the other extreme, there's this: http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/533217-looks-like-lion-air-bent-another-one.html) A person has to individually research the track record and trend of a specific airline to get a good idea...

My guess on what might have happened? I'm thinking now that the captain had a heart attack or whatever and the FO was one of those frauds unfamiliar with the 777 but with a lot of fake hours on his record, and one way or another he made things worse or didn't want to get expose himself by radioing for help or thought he could resolve the problem himself...FWIW, I've seen stories of the unqualified, do-nothing, just-sit-there-and-don't-touch-anything FO being a serious issue in India and South Asia...

Yeah, I know my speculation is almost certainly BS, but for now my narrative is just as valid as anything else for the moment...

[Hassin Bin Sober]

41. I was in the "catastrophic failure" leading to hypoxia (see the Helios air crash) until the info....

.... about the plane using way points over the Indian Ocean.

Then I was in the hijack camp.

Absent any demands or crashing in to a building I am now firmly in the "pilot suicide" camp.

Reaching cruise altitude is the perfect time for a potty break. I would bet one of the pilots left the cockpit and got locked out by the other pilot. The suicide pilot went on oxygen, and depressurized the plane to disable/kill the passengers and crew. Turned off all communications he was able to turn off and flew the plane way off course where he thought no one would ever find it in very deep water.

There have been two airliner pilot mass murder/suicides that I can think of and a Fed Ex pilot attempted murder/suicide. The fed ex case seems more similar to my scenario in that the pilot attempted to cover his suicide tracks by trying to disable the other pilots with a hammer. I can't recall if the other airline pilots attempted to cover their tracks.

I think the most likely scenarios of failure/pilot error or hijacking are pretty much ruled out by what we know. While rare, pilot murder/suicide is not unheard of.

[zentrum]

47. This is my scenario too

The pilot or co-pilot got locked out of the cock pit at some point. The plane was depressurized. The remaining pilot flew for hours in a slow, leisurely but ineluctable suicide.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

9. Interesting -

but he kind of put a dent in his credibility by saying "don't ever get in an Airbus." They are just as safe as the Boeing airplanes - they have an excellent safety record - and they have the same kind of redundant systems, including all of the communication systems and flight protections, and then some. Airbus even has some safety features (Alpha Floor, for example) that Boeing doesn't have. I wouldn't ( and don't) hesitate for an instant to fly in an Airbus.

I suspect it's true that some countries don't maintain their airplanes as well as the U.S., Europe and Australia (for example), although they don't seem to have an unusual number of maintenance-related crashes. Their pilot training, especially their CRM, is generally not as good, as the Asiana accident and a few others (KAL in Guam, for example) suggest. I do think it's too soon to draw any conclusions about the Malaysia 777.

[freshwest]

10. Interesting level of technical details, things few ever consider. Thanks trof. n/t

[Puglover]

11. He lost me with

"Oh, there are a lot of the 'developing' countries that use expatriate pilots from the 1st world. Emirates and Air Jordan come to mind and are very safe."

I worked for a major airline for 35 years. There are good and bad pilots everywhere. It has nothing to do with where the pilots are from.

Oh and "don't ever get into an airbus" Please.

He sounds like the kind of pilot that is not a lot of fun to work with. And I worked with pilots for 21 of my 35 years.

[trof]

21. Au contraire. It has a LOT to do with 'where the pilots are from'.

#1 on airlines hire list are U.S. Air Force and Navy pilots.
#2 are U.S. Army pilots, mainly because they fly smaller airplanes.

I guess I should say 'military trained pilots'.
Of course the Dutch tend to hire the Dutch, the French hire the French, etc.

Worldwide, you will find that most airlines (who can afford it) tend to hire pilots from 1st world countries who have military training.

1. It's the best pilot training there is.
2. It doesn't cost the trainee a dime. He doesn't 'graduate' thousands of dollars in debt.
In fact you get PAID for every hour of flight time.

[Ptah]

12. trof, I thoroughly enjoy any of the in depth knowledge you share.

Thanks.

Love this trivia: Rolls Royce names their motors after rivers..because they always keep on running!

[KittyWampus]

13. The way the last phrase about Airbus was inserted it comes across as good natured ribbing.

Of course some DU'ers decide to take it seriously.

[Scuba]

17. Thanks trof. I skipped all the speculation until I saw your OP. Thanks for passing along your ....

... colleagues thoughts and insights.

[R B Garr]

20. Does anyone have the Cliffs Notes for this? i.e., does it mean that the pilot

couldn't get a mayday out under certain types of emergencies?

That's the one thing that sticks out as most suspicious is that the pilot(s) didn't signify any type of trouble, and with the aircraft flying on for several hours after the last contact, the plane obviously didn't nosedive into the ocean immediately.

[mainer]

22. Is Malaysia a "developing" nation? Is Singapore?

I'm with him until he pretty much goes all eurocentric on us. And I remember the Colgan Air crash in Buffalo with the tired pilots, one of them fighting off a cold, who essentially brought down a plane because they didn't know how to deal with ice.

I've flown in Malaysia and Vietnam, UAE and Turkey and dinky airstrips in the African bush. I don't think safe air travel is only in countries where white pilots fly.

And how on earth do you avoid flying an Airbus when so many transAtlantic flights use them?

[Logical]

23. Wow, "And don't EVER get in an Airbus", really? Over the top. nt

[trof]

31. Every Boeing pilot I know feels the same way.

And for good reason.

[Logical]

33. I call BS on that. Every? Maybe biased from loving Boeing? Want a list of Boeing hull losses? nt

[trof]

38. You call BS on my personal statement of fact?

I don't 'love' Boeing.
The best airplane I ever flew, from a pilot's standpoint, was the Lockheed 1011 Tristar.

Yes the list of Boeing hull loses is long because there are more Boeings flying historically and worldwide than any other airliner manufacturer.

Are you fucking with me?
Don't.

[Logical]

40. LOL, wow, internet tough guy! Shit, maybe you know 4 boeing pilots. It means nothing. And you....

realize they compare it based on miles flown and not counting fucking planes?

[OwnedByCats]

78. You know I think when it comes

to pilots, they must have their preferences when it comes to which planes they fly, am I right? We passengers don't know the ins and outs of flying. We're just there for the ride, going from point A to point B. If a pilot says he prefers Boeing, I'm not going to discount it because of fanboyism because I think it's more complex than that. He has his reasons.

If I look at cars, I can understand. As a passenger, I'm not really that bothered what I ride in (unless I think that car is unsafe), but as a driver and what type of car I choose to buy, I have my preferences.

Thanks for sharing, it was interesting!

[Hassin Bin Sober]

50. I'm not getting in the middle of Boeing vs airbus .....

..... But capt. Sully commented the air France crash might very well have been avoided if the plane had conventional linked yokes instead of unlinked joy sticks.

[Logical]

55. Good point, because it might of let the other pilot.....

see what the other pilot was doing. You can see a pilot pushing or pulling on a yoke. Not so much on the joysticks.

I think 447 was pilot error. But if you are interested here is a great book on the flight, really interesting read.

Understanding Air France 447
http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Air-France-Bill-Palmer-ebook/dp/B00E5W9YZG

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

65. Understanding Air France 447 is a very useful book.

I know the author. He is a very sharp guy, an A330 captain who is also knowledgeable about Boeing systems. He did a great job explaining the systems and how it all went wrong.

[Logical]

66. On the top of my list of great aviation books. n-t

[A HERETIC I AM]

67. From what I have understood about AF 447....

is they flew it flat into the water and it was doing less than 200 knots when it hit.

They basically stalled it at altitude, didn't recognize what they had done coupled with bad instrument readings and the airplane fell out of the sky....well...basically flat. That was why they never sent out a distress. They were busy trying to fly the damned thing all the way till it hit the water. And outside of the failed Pitot Tubes? It was a perfectly operating aircraft.

One article I read went into the issue of the very narrow envelope these aircraft are flying in these days. One or 2 degrees too much nose up at altitude and you have just stalled it and it starts to fall out of the sky.

[Logical]

68. What amazed me is it only took 4 minutes from auto-pilot disconnect to hitting the water. n-t

[KT2000]

48. A ret. test pilot for Boeing

told me yesterday he never had fear on the job because he trusted the quality of the engineers and workforce at Boeing.

[uppityperson]

24. Interesting reading but the "parting shot"? Substandard like AK airlines 261?

Thanks for sharing, interesting but Airbus? pffft to "us vs them" and me in Boeing country.

[A HERETIC I AM]

44. In all fairness, AK 261 was not a Boeing product...

and not built in "Boeing country".

I was an MD-83, a DC-9 variant built in Long Beach.

[uppityperson]

46. I know, it was in regards to "Their operators and maintenance are substandard"

If you travel by air, avoid the 3rd world airlines. Their operators and maintenance are substandard.

[A HERETIC I AM]

49. If you had the choice to fly to the same destination on 2 different airlines....

one being a familiar operator with a long history and the other a "3rd world airline"....


which would YOU choose?

[uppityperson]

53. AK Air was a familiar operator with a long history and still f'd up their maintenance.

Edited for clarity. My point was not that that flight was Boeing but that even "familiar operators with a long history" can have shoddy maintenance.

It is difficult to know who to trust when that sort of thing happens. We want to believe that those type companies are safer, but when something like that happens it makes you wonder what else they have missed.

That is all. Have a good night.

[PumpkinAle]

30. This smacks of trollism

It has been doing the rounds since 3/17.

While a pilot may have his reservations about flying other airlines - I doubt that a professional would state so much in his email regarding the Malay flight.

[trof]

35. We tend to speak our minds. No trolls there.

You would be very surprised about what you'd hear if you sat in with a bunch of pilots 'hangar flying'.

[PumpkinAle]

52. Firstly - it wasn't you

I said was a troll it was the supposed email.

Secondly, I have sat in many times in hangars listening to pilots, non-pilots, mechanics, etc. talk - fun, fascinating, entertaining, enlightening and happy times. And because of that I think the "email" was not factual.

[Skittles]

70. trof (the retired old fart) is a retired airline pilot

and knows the email author

[PumpkinAle]

71. I have no qualms with trof, but that "email" is being shown as authored

by different people and on different dates depending on which site you look at - they are all slightly different, but the one thing they have in common is the "parting shot comment":

"from a retired USAF Colonel, now a B777 Captain"
Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:46 am
http://www.notssmbbs.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29550
The above Colonel is quoted in several pieces - never his actual name though.

"Pilots Opinion on disappearance of Malaysia 777"
Written by Cecil. Scott Sunday, 16 March 2014 23:03
http://www.sxmislandtime.com/island-times/island-aviation/27582-pilots-opinion-on-disappearance-of-malaysia-777.html

"Just a quick update with what I know about the Malaysia 777 disappearance. The Boeing 777 is the airplane that I fly"
the Oracle 3/18/2014 5:28:41 PM
http://www.netfriction.com/DisplayThread.asp?BD=2139598&Page=1&ForumID=91&msgid=2139799&OM=2139799&Return=DisplayThread.asp&D83jsd=True

"The following is from a good friend who flew Special Forces missions and then worked in commercial airliners for the rest of his career. The man who wrote the letter is still working and flies the 777. Obviously, no name here, just some extra stuff we don't all know."
SteveSRT8 03/17/14 11:34 AM
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3314300/29

and so and son.

[Skittles]

74. I might have misinterpreted

but I sent it to another current airline pilot and he replied SPOT ON

[A HERETIC I AM]

37. Said the noob

Let's see......

trof's Profile
Profile information

Gender: Male
Hometown: Alabama
About trof
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Account status: Active
Member since: 2002
Number of posts: 45,027

As opposed to

PumpkinAle's Profile
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About PumpkinAle
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Account status: Active
Member since: Wed Oct 30, 2013, 11:40 PM
Number of posts: 332

I think I'll give the benefit of the doubt to trof.

Welcome to Du!

[trof]

39. Thanks.

I guess some here don't know about my bona fides when it comes to aviation.

[foo_bar]

43. I don't think s/he's calling trof a troll, PA's pointing out that it's a chain letter

and it's circulating on various, uh, websites:

http://conservativelyspeaking.net/2014/03/19/ (this one evolved into a more overtly racist screed: "…or fly with any flapjack pretzel-neck named Hussein<...>&quot

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ec3_1395658999 ("Those responsible are terrorists fully sanctioned by multiple governments with broad control over the international press&quot

http://dirtywhitegoy247.wordpress.com/2014/03/23/neo-flight-370-another-us-conspiracy-by-gordon-duff-vt-sr-editor-with-new-eastern-outlook-moscow/ ("I accept this as proof that a British intelligence agency is very much a part of the fate of flight 370.&quot

http://www.brotherjohnf.com/archives/280993 ("Physical silver is the bullet that slays the Wall Street werewolves&quot

http://www.dailypaul.com/314902/from-an-expertflt-370 ("Daily Paul Liberty Forum"!)

Your mileage may vary, etc.

[Logical]

45. Thanks for this. nt

[PumpkinAle]

51. Thank you

that exactly.

[A HERETIC I AM]

57. I'll give you that the "letter" may have a dubious history....

but trof indicated that he received it in an email from a buddy, AND THAT'S IT.

He didn't write it. He may agree with the sentiment, but I'll leave that up to his professional experience, experience which trumps mine by a light year.

I am not going to apologize for being disturbed when I see a post by someone who has been a member for 6 months or so accusing a long term member of posting something that "smacks of trollism".

I'm glad we have new members here and I am glad we have people willing to create accounts and post their thoughts. I am by no means wishing to make them feel unwelcome. But there is a credibility difference between someone who has been a member since shortly after the board was founded some 13 years ago and someone who joined last week, 6 months ago or even 5 years ago.

[PumpkinAle]

59. I should have stated clearly that the contents of the "email"

smack of trollism.

I have people who send me things that are supposedly from them, but when I do some digging I find that they are forwards of forwards.

This "email" is all over the web and was dated last week.

[PumpkinAle]

54. Just because some is a "noob"

doesn't mean they have no value - and while I am not comparing myself to Obama - many people said he was a "noob" and didn't know anything and look at him now.

Don't assume - it makes an ass of you.

[A HERETIC I AM]

60. The joke is that to "assume" makes an "ass of u and me"

but thanks all the same, person who has been a member since October.

Welcome!

I do not suggest, nor do I mean to imply that "PumpkinAle " has no value. What I am trying to make clear is that newer members owe the benefit of the doubt to older members.

While I have never met trof personally, I have read his posts since I joined some 11 years ago. I trust his judgement, particularly in aviation related subject matter, as he has made no secret of the fact that he has been involved as a pilot in commercial aviation for decades. If he thinks a letter has merit, regardless or whether it is a chain letter or not, then I'll take his word for it. Just as I would hope he would take my word for it on matters relating to the trucking industry, as I have made no secret since I joined DU that I am a truck driver with well more than 20 years experience driving OTR.

When I learn more about you and your experiences and PumpkinAle and his/hers, I'll be sure to give them the credence they deserve.

[HipChick]

34. I have pilot friends...

who echo the same sentiments expressed here in the email..

[Sienna86]

42. Does your friend have any theory on what went wrong?

Thanks for sharing the information.

[liberal N proud]

56. I have always like the ride in the 747 but, 777 is a smooth ride.

[philosslayer]

58. What kind of racist bullshit is this?

"It's also designed to be easy to employ so 3rd world pilots can successfully fly it." So easy to fly even those brown-skinned people can fly it. This guy is an idiot.

[A HERETIC I AM]

62. Oh, for fucks sake.

It has nothing to do with skin color, bud. It has to do with the training and education systems or lack of, in place in those countries. Are you aware how many pilots from "3rd world" nations train to fly fighter jets in the US? Are you aware there is an entire Air Force base in Arizona dedicated to that express purpose?


It isn't racist if it is a fact. It's just a fact.

[pnwmom]

77. That was awkwardly put, but I think the issue is that some of those airlines

don't have the financial resources to hire the pilots with the best skills.

[brooklynite]

61. I don't think MAS counts as a "Third World Airline"

Singapore Airlines (MAS and Singapore Airlines were both formed from the split of MSA in the 1970s) is considered one of the best airlines in the World.

[AngryAmish]

64. A friend of mine recently retired as a 777 pilot

He figures that one of the two fellas upfront wanted to see Allah. No reason why they wanted to die but it was deliberate.

[Skittles]

69. could you explain the "don't ever get in an Airbus" comment

is that solely because of the Air France thing?

[moondust]

72. "3rd world airlines"

I've been wondering how strictly standards are followed as far as inspections, maintenance, quality of parts, training of mechanics and pilots, perhaps language barriers, etc., as increasingly advanced airline technologies have been deployed deeper into developing countries.

[Populist_Prole]

75. Another "retired colonel" screed

With all due respect to the OP poster as a DU member, I just got the exact same email from my right wing father. He doubtless figured it would resonate with me because I'm an airline mechanic. It didn't. Sounds impressive to laymen with all its jargon word salad. I was mostly thinking "uh huh, uh huh....no shit". The opinionated ending made me think of him as some cocky redneck flag-waving asshole.

"That is all".