General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSo the Egyptian Court sentenced over 500 Muslim Brotherhood supporters to death
Never forget that the Muslim Brotherhood are the democratically elected government of Egypt and the West never supports coups.
This is 'effin' madness.
reddread
(6,896 posts)snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)FrodosPet
(5,169 posts)The Muslim Brotherhood was originally elected. So we should support them.
But they are religious fundamentalists - we cannot support another Sharia state.
But over 500 are going to be executed, mainly for their political views. So we should support them.
But those political views are largely the opposite of progressive views - veiled women, execution of gays...
IIRC, the U.S. was supporting the MB. But now it is accused of supporting the coup.
Can someone please help me understand who we should be supporting over there, and why?
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)I'd like to think human beings had evolved more over the last eight hundred years but....
I guess not.
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)instead of mindlessly supporting a country/party/person all of the time, because situations are nuanced. The same applies here in the US even with our own party and president.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)If that means supporting a brutal dictatorship in Egypt we have done that and will continue to do that.
Egypt is a huge country that could explode into a giant mess if granted the ability to chart their own course.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)This is what you can get, my friends, when you support the violent overthrow of democratically elected governments: officially-sanctioned mass murder as a means of controlling political opposition.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)on this very subject. http://www.thenation.com/article/178940/cold-war-threatens-democracy
malaise
(269,022 posts)Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)And your other OP's, slaying neocons isn't easy, but we've seen it, they can be forced to retreat and call off their offensives.
Every day they are weaker and not gaining strength.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)it's obviously a tough debate here at DU. In my mind the "enemy" that's the biggest danger to the current United States is the one calling the shots behind the scenes. The one Bill Moyers recently did a full expose' on. The MIC, the "Think Tanks' (talk about a play on words) and the Neocons who push their agenda all over the globe.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Just trash these fuckers when they trout out mccain and the rest of the neocon lemmings.
McCain will NEVER live down his conjugal visit with Jihadist in Syria. His legacy is complete.
Loser can't even hold a town hall without being heckled by his own constituents for his Jihadi love.
We could all smell the coffee when we saw McCain in Ukraine . He's a red alert for death, destruction and right wing extremism.
If there is pain and suffering anywhere in the world, McCain is not far behind collecting tears of unfathomable sorrow to feed his empty soul.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)You DO know that's a photoshop, right?
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)It's his legacy.
Here is the picture with the terrorists, The allegation they were a kidnapping gang
The woman who is veiled so she doesn't spook these fanatics is that fraud who was exposed.
Kerry and McCains favorite Syria expert fired for faking credentials
PS this ones shooped too.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)You're out there, guys. You know I can't call you out by name, and you were all so proud of yourselves for supporting the "liberation" of Egypt from its democratically elected government. Why not come out and take a bow, folks?
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)It was over so fast they didn't even have time to start thinking up nicknames for people that were opposed to it. Everyone knows a coup isn't real unless you get to call people Muslim Brotherhoodistas for a few weeks.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)All we did was cheer from the sidelines.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)But since you have gone back and deleted every single comment you've made on the subject, I'm afraid I have to disqualify you from the awards show! However, you're not going home empty-handed.
Since, judging from replies to your vanished posts, you are an advocate of mass murder who - rather laughably - believes israel is under occupation by Arab armies, we have just the consolation prize for you.
A lifetime subscription to the Daniel Pipes Book of the month Club!
Perhaps next time, you'll have the intellectual courage to stand by your own opinion. Until then, happy reading!
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Going back and deleting everything he's said on the subject... wow.
DU is a marvel sometimes. He probably thought people on here were so stupid they wouldn't notice dozens of deleted posts.
malaise
(269,022 posts)Busted
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)One does not execute 500 people and call themselves reasonable.
reddread
(6,896 posts)all the reason we need.
Thats what power is for.
malaise
(269,022 posts)and at the same time when we're calling out the democratically elected Venezuelan government when Western financed anti-government protesters are being attacked by government forced - and of course don't forget Ukraine...you can kill the police as long as you're on the 'right' side.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)is to blindly support any manner of "protestors" without giving it much thought at all.
Witness the support of the protests in Ukraine, Thailand, Venezuela, Egypt all against the democratically elected governments in each.
Democratic "underground" indeed.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Mob rule when it suits us.
reddread
(6,896 posts)for some here it may be
"Democratic" Underground
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Scary business.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,320 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)to seize the government, rule the world and kill Jews.
Oh, wait. That pretty much describes the Muslim Brotherhood as well.
malaise
(269,022 posts)Your post makes no sense.
reddread
(6,896 posts)the musical.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Meanwhile, the MB rewrote the Egyptian constitution at its whimsy to keep itself in power. It then set out on a foreign policy of seeking out other Islamist factions to spread its malignant brand as well as rekindle war with Israel.
In other words, there is no functional difference between them and the Nazis, including the fact both were democratically elected.
Being democratically elected doesn't mean squat if the faction elected uses the election to subsequently destroy democracy for everyone else through power grabbing and aggressive war -- which the MB certainly worked towards. Democratic elections only matter if the government uses its mandate to promote democratic reforms.
The MB was nothing more than terror supporting thugs who couldn't even run the country competently once they were in power so even the people turned against them.
malaise
(269,022 posts)The Supreme Court gave him.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)reddread
(6,896 posts)retroactively legalized as they were.
freebrew
(1,917 posts)and you just described the U.S.A. Inc.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)That people who rightfully oppose the BFEE and fascism in America would so wildly applaud it elsewhere in the world as if it were any less of a threat to humanity and its dignity.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)some of us understand that sometimes it's better to stick with what you currently have in certain countries than to quickly jump on the next best thing that suits the neocons agenda. Look at Iraq...the hardcore left warned you...look at Libya....we also warned you....the hard left has pointed the finger at Saudi Arabia saying there goes your rights abusers, there goes your 9/11 attackers, there goes your instigators for unrest in other countries....yet not a peep from our "Deep State" on that one.
There is far too much simplistic cheerleading when it comes to these issues and some of us may feel that it's actually counter productive for human rights when your country backs one despot over another and then topples the one that doesn't suit their needs and replaces them with one that is far more nefarious.
Putin, for example, is not a perfect leader...but for Russia he has cut crime in half and grown their economy...lifting many people out of poverty and maybe unbeknowingly laying the groundwork for future freedom. Many on this side of the pond seem to miss the point that some countries aren't on the same wavelength as posters here at DU when it comes to equal rights. I wish it was so but it takes critical thinking to understand Russia can actually spiral backwards and human rights can suffer more greatly under a different leader.
As it goes with Ukraine at this point...the party that toppled the government has released this video.
It speaks very loudly about what you can end up with. All the cheerleading and Putipants pics will be quite useless if Russia had a similar platform to the one in the video. My gut tells me that many of these noncritical thinkers would be wishing for Putin to be back in charge...especially as we would never want partys like this to have access to nuclear weapons.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)You don't fuck with the oil/gas mafia.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Federal elections were held in Germany on 5 March 1933. The Nazis registered a large increase in votes, again emerging as the largest party by far. Nevertheless they failed to obtain an absolute majority (despite the massive suppression against Communist and Social Democratic politicians) in their own right, needing the votes of their coalition partner, the DNVP German National People's Party, or "Black-White-Red-Struggle-Front," for a working majority. Due to the success in the poll, party leader Adolf Hitler Chancellor since 30 January was able to pass the Enabling Act on 23 March, which effectively made Hitler dictator of Germany. As a result, while three more elections (with only a Nazi party list) were held in the Nazi era, this was the last multi-party election held in Germany before the end of World War II and the formation of the German Bundestag in 1949, and the last for the whole country before reunification in 1990.
Incumbent President Paul von Hindenburg was 84 years old and in poor health. Never enthusiastic about the presidency (or public office in general), Hindenburg had planned to stand down after his first term. However, the prospect of Adolf Hitler being elected President of Germany persuaded the reluctant incumbent to seek a second term.
Despite becoming a German citizen (and thus eligible for public office) only on 25 February 1932, Hitler hoped to use the presidency to overturn the Weimar constitution and establish a dictatorship. In the 1925 election Hindenburg had been the candidate of the political right and had been strenuously opposed by much of the moderate left and political center. However, in 1932, this part of the political spectrum decided to unite with the moderate right in supporting Hindenburg to prevent Hitler's election. The support of the moderate Weimar coalition was also encouraged by the fact that, contrary to fears expressed at the time of his election in 1925, Hindenburg had not used his office to subvert the constitution, as Hitler now aimed to do.
Although Hitler lost the presidential election of 1932, he succeeded Hindenburg as head of state only two years later, when Hindenburg died in 1934. After the president's death Hitler abolished the office entirely, and replaced it with the new position of Führer und Reichskanzler ("Leader and Reich Chancellor" , cementing his dictatorship.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Hitler attained power by constitutional means then immediately used that power to countermand the very processes that gave him that power.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)"You know who else was elected? ...HITLER!"
...except Hitler was never elected
Rule the world, huh?
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)He was *appointed* Chancellor of Germany by the guy who won the election, Paul von Hindenburg. So no, Hitler was not democratically elected.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)They don't support a secular plural society, they want to enslave women and are religious fanatics.
They are akin to the worst Iranian mullahs or the jihadist we kill in Iraq and Afghanistan. Egyptian civil society will be better after they excise this anti democratic cancer.
We need to focus on supporting secular progressive governments in the middle east, not fanatics bent on taking us back to the middle ages. Proponents of female circumcision.
They should be grateful they were given the benefits of a trial by a civil society. Something their own movement would deny others.
Maybe DU missed the hundreds killed by these religious fanatics, you reap what you sow.
Fuck Morsi and his supporters...everywhere.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)except not a fan of the death penalty.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Kangaroo Court death sentences.
There is that, and not liking a democratically elected government is not an excuse for hating it.
malaise
(269,022 posts)How many hundreds were killed by Mubarak?
Do you support killing over 500 people - does that settle your version of the score?
At what point does the killing stop?
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)You've replied to the wrong post. I support rolling back sharia, killing violent jihadist and supporting PLURAL GOVERNMENTS that support SECULAR societies.
I'd take it further and go after their paymasters in Saudi, Bahrain and Qatar. Drones are wasted while radicals like bandar bush run amuck.
There are people in Egypt who long for a secular life free from religious fanatics or the military dictatorship. Those are my people and I stand in solidarity with them.
Fuck Morsi, the Muslim brotherhood and their supporters EVERYWHERE.
malaise
(269,022 posts)I assume the notion of sovereign states only apply to a select few global bullies.
You frighten me - this poor planet.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)malaise
(269,022 posts)Those where nationality is based on religion?
Spare me - I'm an atheist.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)based on overturning an elected president and disenfranchising at least a quarter of the population?
Would you agree with disenfranchising the Tea Party base of the GOP? They are a religion based party.
FWIW I'm all for encouraging the formation of secular liberal democracies but we haven't done that since the end of WWII with Germany and Japan. It's difficult to do that when one major party - the GOP - is against liberal democracy and is pushing a theocratic system.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)What do you do with political groups that are elected democratically and whose actions are to dismantle that same democracy.
That happened in the 90's in algeria and led to years of counter insurgency by the military against the Jihadist.
The same was happing in Egypt.
Fundamentalist Jihadist are not compatible with democracy as their legal authority is not the secular state but the magic book as interpreted by a bunch of loony wizards.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)They were and are the largest political and social group in Egypt.
The military made the mistake of allowing elections before other political parties had time to form. So obviously the MB with their almost century of organizing were in a position to take advantage of the situation.
In fact, the way that Morsi was deposed wasn't the main problem, it was the extreme violence of the crackdown on the Pro-Morsi protesters. That crackdown was much worse than even the recent Mubarak crackdowns.
It's a mess anyway.
The Tea Party are a bunch of loony wizards but they still get a say in America. You have to think very carefully before you disenfranchise a whole section of the population.
G_j
(40,367 posts)are very scary! I don 't feel at all comfortable with that here.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)They support the Egyptian military government.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Which of the thousand killed by the junta in Cairo a few months ago?
How many of the journalists locked away under charges of treason and terrorism? Which by the way, carry death sentences as well.
Please don't try to argue that you're for a pluralist, secular democracy, while you're rallying for a military junta that seized power in a violent coup.
While you're at it, keep the phrase "human rights" out of your mouth, while you're cheering for mass slaughter of Egyptians. Since you're backing up a brutal putsch that is set on eliminating the rightful government through mass murder, and throws reporters in jail under death penalty charges for reporting it, you really don't get to talk about human rights. You're obviously not interested.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)That respect the rights of religious minorities and don't claim to get their authority from a holy book.
I'm not supporting sending Egypt back to the middle ages of religious fundamentalism.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)What happens when, as in Egypt, the majority vote in a reasonably free and not immensely unfair election for a religious party?
Is a military coup, overthrowing democracy but retaining secular rule, justifiable?
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)I'll take the dictatorship over the alternative.
It's akin to the tea party winning the house, senate, and white house. Then stating a program to re-write the constitution that brought them to power, banning abortion and making Christianity the law of the land. Setting gangs out to harass and kill jews, and other religious minorities.
Thats what this is all about.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)and started to re-write the constitution to make Christianity the official religion, ban abortion, gay marriage, repeal the civil rights act and the ACA because it says so in the old fucking testament.
I'm going to beg the military to restore the secular democracy and destroy those illegitimate thugs.
If legally elected generalisimo Cruz ends up in a cage in a show trial after it's all over I'll enjoy the show. You reap what you sow.
If they were elected and did not do any of the above - obviously not.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)What if they might oppose the Tea party nuts - but still rally against the military overthrowing the government? What if htye're just journalists reporting on the crackdown?
because THOSE are the people Egypt is killing, in addition to elected party members and the appratus - many of whom, let us note, are no more "guilty" of anything than anyone else - and for those who are, they deserve actual trials, not two-day, no-evidence, death sentence shenannigans.
THOSE are the people whose destruction you are cheering
"Muslim Brotherhood supporters"
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)And just say that you support "secular" institutions, democratic or not, rather than using "democratic" to make your views sound more reasonable.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Your "vision" of secular democracy is something vastly more unnerving and despicable than any of the cockamamie bullshit the Muslim Brotherhood had going on.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)I think the point is if any religious group takes power, then re-writes the constitution (AKA the rules that brought them to power)
Doing that in a way that threatens women, religious minorities, and others who deserve the protection of the state they are no longer legitimate.
You need to play be the rules in a democratic society. The Muslim Brotherhood re-wrote the rules according to their holy book.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)You are looking at a situation where half a thousand people have been sentenced to death for supporting a political party. By a military junta that seized power in a bloody coup. That then targeted unarmed peaceful demonstrators, slaughtering over a thousand of them. Where journalists who report on the situation are imprisoned, tortured, and tried, also with death sentences looming.
This is not being done to protect "women, religious minorities, and gays," and it's fucking shameful that you keep trying to hide behind those people in your defense of slaughtering people - unless you're going to tell me the putsch makes sure everyone it's killed is male, straight, and Muslim, of course?
You don't get to exploit these people to provide shelter for your advocacy of brutality against other people. Right now the junta in Egypt is murdering human beings and all you've got in defense of your support for that is the same mush-mouthed, false-consern platitudes I could get out of the EDL any fucking day of the week.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)grahamhgreen
(15,741 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Having said that, the Muslim Brotherhood haven't exactly been Boy Scouts the past few years...
WhiteTara
(29,718 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)It's an attempt at mass murder for certain. But no, not genocide. Nor is it ethnic cleansing. I suppose that wholesale eradication of a political group could fall under the looser rubric of "democide" however... But at the current scale, it's just mass murder.
malaise
(269,022 posts)Another 700 will have similar sham trials today. Not one defendant even has a lawyer - unprecedented.
This is absolute bullshit - we need global condemnation for this madness.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/03/25/uk-egypt-brotherhood-idUKBREA2O0FA20140325
<snip>
The United Nations human rights office said on Tuesday the mass death sentences contravened international law, and voiced concern for others facing the same charges. [ID:nL5N0MM29B] The European Union and the United States also criticised the ruling.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/europe/10481-egypt-more-than-500-sentenced-to-death-in-grotesque-ruling
Egypt: More than 500 sentenced to death in 'grotesque' ruling
Today's mass death sentences handed down by an Egyptian court are a grotesque example of the shortcomings and the selective nature of Egypt's justice system, Amnesty International said.
According to state media reports, in a single hearing this morning, the Minya Criminal Court sentenced 529 supporters of former President Mohamed Morsi to be executed for their alleged role in violence following his ousting in July last year.
"This is injustice writ large and these death sentences must be quashed. Imposing death sentences of this magnitude in a single case makes Egypt surpass most other countries' use of capital punishment in a year," said Hassiba Hadj Sahraoui, Deputy Middle East and North Africa Programme Director at Amnesty International.
"This is the largest single batch of simultaneous death sentences we've seen in recent years, not just in Egypt but anywhere in the world.
"Egypt's courts are quick to punish Mohamed Morsi's supporters but ignore gross human rights violations by the security forces. While thousands of Morsi's supporters languish in jail, there has not been an adequate investigation into the deaths of hundreds of protesters. Just one police officer is facing a prison sentence, for the deaths of 37 detainees.
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)What was their crime. Unless they all murdered someone, this is unjust.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)in the affairs of nations in the Middle East. We don't understand the area and often misconstrue things that happen there. Whenever revolutionary changes of government occur, they end badly for at least one group. Egypt must figure its own future out for itself, I'm afraid. Whether DU or the State Department gets involved in supporting one side or another in such situations, it makes no difference. Nations have to determine their own path.
Sadly, that often leads to terrible things happening. Our opinions and efforts won't change that, I'm afraid.
malaise
(269,022 posts)This is madness
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)to transform the dictatorship into a democracy. But democracy in Egypt wasn't tolerable, for now, to those who have vested interests in keeping it under the control of the military.
I guess these are latest allies ...
I wonder what the world would look like if the Western Powers supported Democratic Governments rather than dictatorships.
It's hard to even read about Egypt now.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)taking the total to c.1250.
What should be front page news isn't
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)(Reuters) - The leader of Egypt's outlawed Muslim Brotherhood and 682 others went on trial on Tuesday on charges including murder, their lawyer said, a day after more than 500 supporters of deposed Islamist president Mohamed Mursi were sentenced to death.
Brotherhood Supreme Guide Mohamed Badie, 70, and the others were being tried in the same court in Minya Province that condemned 529 members of the Islamist group to death, in what rights groups said was the biggest mass death sentence handed out in Egypt's modern history.
The United Nations human rights office said on Tuesday the mass death sentences contravened international law, and voiced concern for others facing the same charges. [ID:nL5N0MM29B] The European Union and the United States also criticised the ruling.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/03/25/uk-egypt-brotherhood-idUKBREA2O0FA20140325
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Over 500 Muslim Brotherhood Members Get Death Penalty Ahead of Egyptian Presidential Election
Journalist Mohamed El Meshad explains how public opinion is divided over ruling especially ahead of Egypt's April 1st presidential
March 25, 14
Bio
Mohamed Elmeshad is an independent journalist based in Cairo and former reporter for Al-Masry Al-Youm's Egypt Independent. He graduated in 2006 with a B.S. in Economics and a Minor in Journalism from the George Washington University. He worked in Benin as a Peace Corps Volunteer between 2006-2008 where he focused on Small Enterprise Development and other educational projects. This was followed by two years as a Corporate Analyst at a Private Equity firm in Bahrain.
Transcript: snip* DESVARIEUX: So, Mohamed, tell us about the court ruling and how you think it will affect the political climate in Egypt.
ELMESHAD: Well, the court ruling is--I mean, simply it's the largest sort of mass ruling of, you know, mass conviction for murder, which entails execution, in the modern history of Egypt. I mean, it happened over--apparently, it happened over just two court sessions, where the first one was very short. The second one is where they gave the ruling. Of course, for 528 or 545 total people on trial, I mean, it's impossible for them to have [incompr.] gone through complete due process.
What we know so far is that these people, they may or may not have been involved in some altercations with police at Matay Police Station in Minya, where one officer was killed. And because of that, they were all convicted of murder, and 528 of them were given death sentences.
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=11637
malaise
(269,022 posts)ELMESHAD: Well, the court ruling is--I mean, simply it's the largest sort of mass ruling of, you know, mass conviction for murder, which entails execution, in the modern history of Egypt. I mean, it happened over--apparently, it happened over just two court sessions, where the first one was very short. The second one is where they gave the ruling. Of course, for 528 or 545 total people on trial, I mean, it's impossible for them to have gone through complete due process.
And there are people on DU defending this sham trial - my way or hte highway has tkan on new meaning.
Freedom and democracy my ass!!!
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)US response:
snip*The United States was deeply concerned, and I would say actually pretty shocked, about the mass death sentences, said Marie Harf, a State Department spokeswoman. It defies logic and certainly does not seem possible that a fair review of evidence and testimony, consistent with international standards, could have been conducted over a two-day period, she said.
Harf said that the United States was raising its concerns with the Egyptian government but that its an important relationship [that we] dont want to completely cut off.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/egypt-sentences-529-to-death/2014/03/24/a4f95692-6992-461e-aaf1-9bc84908a429_story.html
malaise
(269,022 posts)Moral of th story
Never recognize a coup
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)(Reuters) - The United Nations human rights office said on Tuesday an Egyptian court's decision to sentence 529 members of the Muslim Brotherhood to death contravened international law, and voiced concern for thousands of others facing the same charges.
Rights campaigners and lawyers described Monday's ruling as the biggest mass death penalty handed out in Egypt's modern history.
The Muslim Brotherhood's leader and 682 others went on trial on Tuesday in the same court.
"The mass imposition of the death penalty after a trial rife with procedural irregularities is in breach of international human rights law," U.N. human rights spokesman Rupert Colville said at a news briefing in Geneva.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/03/25/uk-egypt-brotherhood-courts-un-idUKBREA2O0P320140325
malaise
(269,022 posts)about time