General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBefore 2004, I had been politically indifferent. Believed govt insulated from real abuse.
Those are not my words. But that just about describes how I was politically before the Iraq invasion. So I understand someone who claims they were apathetic politically at the time.
What is interesting is that these are the words of Glenn Greenwald when he defended himself from so many of the attacks on him. Here are his words from the preface of his 2006 book "How Would a Patriot Act?"
Every time his name is mentioned here it is said he supported the Iraq invasion. Just like many other once respected lefty bloggers he is now condemned.
Our country is at a profound crossroads. We must decide whether we want to adhere to the values and principles that have made our country free, strong, and great for the 217 years since our Constitution was ratified, or whether we will relinquish those values and fundamentally change who we are, all in the name of seeking protection from terrorism. I genuinely believe that we are extremely lucky to be the beneficiaries of a system of government that uniquely protects our individual liberties and allows us a life free of tyranny and oppression. It is incumbent upon all Americans who believe in that system, bequeathed to us by the founders, to defend it when it is under assault and in jeopardy. And today it is.
I did not arrive at these conclusions eagerly or because I was predisposed by any previous partisan viewpoint. Quite the contrary.
....I never voted for George W. Bush or for any of his political opponents. I believed that voting was not particularly important. Our country, it seemed to me, was essentially on the right track. Whether Democrats or Republicans held the White House or the majorities in Congress made only the most marginal difference. . . .
I firmly believed that our democratic system of government was sufficiently insulated from any real abuse, by our Constitution and by the checks and balances afforded by having three separate but equal branches of government. My primary political belief was that both parties were plagued by extremists who were equally dangerous and destructive, but that as long as neither extreme acquired real political power, our system would function smoothly and more or less tolerably. For that reason, although I always paid attention to political debates, I was never sufficiently moved to become engaged in the electoral process. I had great faith in the stability and resilience of the constitutional republic that the founders created.
There was a post last year at Daily Kos which referenced a blog post in which Greenwald defended himself on many positions. I had been searching for that post, but that blog site apparently is defunct.
Here are some quotes of his from the DKos post.
Glenn Greenwald Responds to Widespread Lies About Him (on Cato, Iraq War, and more)
I am referring only to the paragraphs that are about the Iraq invasion.
These claim [sic] are absolutely false. They come from a complete distortion of the Preface I wrote to my own 2006 book, How Would a Patriot Act? That book - which was the first book devoted to denouncing the Bush/Cheney executive power theories as radical and lawless - was published a mere six months after I began blogging, so the the purpose of the Preface was to explain where I had come from, why I left my law practice to begin writing about politics, and what my political evolution had been..
The whole point of the Preface was that, before 2004, I had been politically apathetic and indifferent - except for the work I was doing on constitutional law. That's because, while I had no interest in the fights between Democrats and Republicans, I had a basic trust in the American political system and its institutions, such that I devoted my attention and energies to preventing constitutional violations rather than political debates.
.....When the Iraq War was debated and then commenced, I was not a writer. I was not a journalist. I was not politically engaged or active. I never played any role in political debates or controversies. Unlike the countless beloved Democrats who actually did support the war - including Obama's Vice President Joe Biden and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton - I had no platform or role in politics of any kind.
I never once wrote in favor of the Iraq War or argued for it in any way, shape or form. Ask anyone who claims that I "supported" the Iraq War to point to a single instance where I ever supported or defended it in any way. There is no such instance. It's a pure fabrication.
You really should read the rest of the very long DKos post. It covers many areas in which he defends himself.
There is not any one single author or reporter who gets it right every time. I do not ever agree with any one person all the time.
But now it is hard to post any work of any writer who is or has been critical of President Obama's policies. I really never thought about that happening on Democratic forums.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)madfloridian
(88,117 posts)If we ever differ we become the enemy. That is just wrong.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)the "loyalty oaths" that smack of McCarthyism for those of us old enough to remember those days is something new. I'm not sure what to make of it and that it seemed to start up over the Ukrainian situation.
We shall see....
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Even when they have a (D) behind their name.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Greenwald gets a big chorus of boos from some folks because (1) he is hyper-sanctimonious; (2) refuses to consider evidence that undercuts his arguments; (3) has never admitted to being wrong in any disagreement with anyone ever; (4) acts like he's the goddamn pope of 'progressivism' despite the fact he's paid attention to politics for less than a decade (5) has been a huge apologist for Ron Paul, denouncing 'smears' from lifelong progressives who documented Paul's racism (6) named Gary Johnson as his preferred candidate in 2012; and (7) used to be a blatant libertarian xenophobe who used the same language as Tom Tancredo on immigration.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Of course nothing said in his defense matters, minds are made up.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Now, he went back and added a preface about how mean, nasty Obama supporters keep dragging it up, referring to 'cultists.'
But, to be blunt, I have serious difficulty trusting ANYONE who would have written that and then start lecturing other people on progressivism within a blink of an eye.
He was a sanctimonious asshole back then, while he was peddling bigotry. He was part of the crowd that thought George W Bush was too liberal on immigration.
YMMV, but to me that kind of crap serves as a lifetime disqualification, much like Andrew Sullivan's crap under Bush did.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Huh? Who??
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)claude, Alumbrados, Superskepticalman, Joe Buck, Marek, RF, Paleo, filkertom, jotter, slinkerwink, Liberal Thinking, Emerson, Shockwave, genethefiend, OLinda, Stein, Aspe4, GayHillbilly, MpeachW, recentdemocrat, sobermom, RFK Lives, floridagal, MarkInSanFran, catnip, TheMomCat, emmanuel, bronte17, whenwego, stevej, chuckvw, roses, Nate Roberts, Beelzebud, Chrisfs, Texknight, recontext, psnyder, TexDem, Dallasdoc, mrkvica, lucid, Farugia, Miss Jones, Boppy, TiaRachel, DSC on the Plateau, Calidrissp, inclusiveheart, walkshills, outragedinSF, zerelda, jcrit, TexasLefty, furi kuri, rolet, Josiah Bartlett, Tirge Caps, sb, nailbender, joanneleon, kbman, 3goldens, denise b, PDiddie, m16eib, gerard w, caul, ek hornbeck, sc kitty, JohnB47, run around, grimjc, basquebob, juliesie, Dobber, Laurence Lewis, ratzo, Viceroy, CyberDem, Sun Tzu, lotlizard, antiapollon, LucyandByron, Tool, WisePiper, Shotput8, Lisa Lockwood, Rogneid, Indiana Bob, zozie, xaxnar, Jim R, splashoil, Jim P, SoulCatcher, Doug Goodenough, WuChier, esquimaux, tommymet, vigilant meerkat, Yellow Canary, Scientician, AoT, KenBee, blue meme, pmorlan, VictorLaszlo, Son of a Cat, Lefty Coaster, blueoasis, triv33, praenomen, MJ via Chicago, eglantine, philipmerrill, twigg, gooderservice, SadieSue, JVolvo, joe shikspack, Sagebrush Bob, NearlyNormal, el cid, vivian darkbloom, democracy is coming, Clive all hat no horse Rodeo, MrJersey, fiddlingnero, Cassiodorus, shaharazade, nhox42, liberaldemdave, Aaa T Tudeattack, NonnyO, cpresley, Thinking Fella, One Pissed Off Liberal, pgm 01, pfiore8, Jarrayy, devis1, offgrid, gloriana, puakev, yoduuuh do or do not, david mizner, Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle, dclawyer06, suejazz, Shadowmage36, aliasalias, KPDownes, artisan, Aunt Martha, SeaTurtle, bobswern, CT Hank, leonard145b, homerun, cloudbustingkid, Don midwest, Jahiz, MKinTN, gundyj, also mom of 5, scooter in brooklyn, zerone, poligirl, Sixty Something, Arlys, elwior, Akonitum, KJG52, lavorare, monkeybrainpolitics, tofumagoo, RandomNonviolence, Wek, No Exit, temptxan, LaEscapee, Karen Hedwig Backman, priceman, Old Surgeon, billybam, sydneyluv, protectspice, rhutcheson, David Futurama, CIndyCasella, ZhenRen, dreamghost, Rhysling, cybrestrike, Rick Aucoin, ARS, ewmorr, CanyonWren, mkor7, JesseCW, dRefractor, RageKage, UnaSpenser, stevenwag, Enzo Valenzetti, angel d, Leftcandid, catilinus, Words In Action, Just Bob, David PA, The Jester, serendipityisabitch, Crabby Abbey, renzo capetti, Eddie L, shenderson, samanthab, Lady Libertine, ItsSimpleSimon, 2020adam, ffour, Funkygal, addisnana, Johnny Q, 4kedtongue, Betty Pinson, DrTerwilliker, backell, rasfrome, Barbara Marquardt, afisher, BillyElliott, kevin k, trumpeter, marleycat, zukesgirl64, dougbob, PhilJD, cap76, Andrew F Cockburn, Oilwellian, Book of Hearts, Willa Rogers, dradams, Mentatmark, SouthernLiberalinMD, OutcastsAndCastoffs, YaNevaNo, quill, mrbond, Sneelock, RockyJ, anodnhajo, DeadHead, cwsmoke, dance you monster, 420 forever, JGibson, pot, OllieGarkey, FrY10cK, katiec, BradyB, SethRightmer, Chaddiwicker, TheMeansAreTheEnd, SixSixSix, Alhambra, Icicle68, Smoh, Avilyn, Demeter Rising, Ishmaelbychoice, pragmaticidealist, Jim Domenico, sensetolisten, Skatekey
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)'politically indifferent.' He was a Bush supporter until it became expedient not to be. Read the fluffing:
This is not to say that I was not angry about the attacks. I believed that Islamic extremism posed a serious threat to the country, and I wanted an aggressive response from our government. I was ready to stand behind President Bush and I wanted him to exact vengeance on the perpetrators and find ways to decrease the likelihood of future attacks. During the following two weeks, my confidence in the Bush administration grew as the president gave a series of serious, substantive, coherent, and eloquent speeches that struck the right balance between aggression and restraint. And I was fully supportive of both the presidents ultimatum to the Taliban and the subsequent invasion of Afghanistan when our demands were not met. Well into 2002, the presidents approval ratings remained in the high 60 percent range, or even above 70 percent, and I was among those who strongly approved of his performance. [...]
During the lead-up to the invasion, I was concerned that the hell-bent focus on invading Iraq was being driven by agendas and strategic objectives that had nothing to do with terrorism or the 9/11 attacks. The overt rationale for the invasion was exceedingly weak, particularly given that it would lead to an open-ended, incalculably costly, and intensely risky preemptive war. Around the same time, it was revealed that an invasion of Iraq and the removal of Saddam Hussein had been high on the agenda of various senior administration officials long before September 11. Despite these doubts, concerns, and grounds for ambivalence, I had not abandoned my trust in the Bush administration. Between the presidents performance in the wake of the 9/11 attacks, the swift removal of the Taliban in Afghanistan, and the fact that I wanted the president to succeed, because my loyalty is to my country and he was the leader of my country, I still gave the administration the benefit of the doubt. I believed then that the president was entitled to have his national security judgment deferred to, and to the extent that I was able to develop a definitive view, I accepted his judgment that American security really would be enhanced by the invasion of this sovereign country.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)So what?
If you disagree with something Greenwald writes, then address Greenwald's argument with your own. One passage, out of context, pulled from the preface of a book published in 2007 is not a counter-argument. It is a classic ad hominem fallacy.
Why should anyone interested in a discussion of these issues pay even the slightest degree of attention to a poster that continually refuses to engage an author's arguments but instead posts irrelevant, out-of-date, cherry-picked "gotcha!" excerpts like this?
The answer is: nobody should.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)whenever they get desperate to discredit Greenwald.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)...The Authorization to Use Military Force in Iraq as being "Bush Supporters" too?
because the logic behind their vote and visible Public Support for the Invasion of Iraq exactly mirrors Greenwald's.
If you are going to hold that against Greenwald,
then there are a BUNCH of "Centrist" Democrats that you should hold responsible too,
including John Kerry and Hillary Clinton.
Consistency IS the hallmark of an honest broker.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)hootinholler
(26,449 posts)Catherina
(35,568 posts)madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Minds are made up. Just like when I post about the harm being done to public education....doesn't matter. We are not to criticize policy as it is taken personally.
I don't especially like Greenwald's attitude sometimes, but the horrible attacks on him here are really not called for.
I am now considered an "Obama hater". You know like the phrase.."haters gonna hate" and all that.
Just because I defend public education.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)It's all the same tactics and small mindedness. Everything the TP does, they do as well.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)Don't let the snark get to you. When people google subjects and DU links come up, you make a huge different. Nobody's interested in stupid snark or the same talking points you hear on the news. You make a real difference with posters here too.
You're considered an Obama-hater? Well the requirements for that are so low as to be meaningless so don't let it get to you. It's not an assessment anyway but a tactic to get you to shut up. I'm glad you're not giving anyone that pleasure because millions of kids are depending on teachers like you speaking out. You know their trick. Shut down criticism and then years later, when everything's gone to hell, they say "no one spoke up."
Keep preaching sister!
Rebel Diaz wrote this for a Chicago protest but it's for teachers everywhere, with a special dedication from me to you.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Thx for the video. They keep fighting against great odds. Their Democratic mayor, Rahm, has shown contempt for them over and over.
Appreciate the kind words.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)As if that's possible.
Just because he's left Rolling Stone to write at First Look.
pnwmom
(108,995 posts)"Im never comfortable when people call me a lefty. If anyone were to ever ask, Id say I'm probably more of a libertarian than anything else. I believe in capitalism, small government, etc.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)The point is people are now trying to swiftboat him for that one thing rather than take a look at his work, which cannot be ridiculed in good faith, by pulling out Libertarian, as if that automatically means everything that person says is complete gibberish.
The extremists on DU are using Libertarian the way the RW uses Liberal, as a label to use as a smear. Makes no difference what the work of the person shows, just slap a label on them and throw them under the bus.
pnwmom
(108,995 posts)other conservatives. The party's ideal of "small government" excludes public schools, public universities, public fire departments, Medicare, Social Security, public roads, and on and on.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)to make it seem as if we should discount everything he says. He barely even identifies with the party. You are doing exactly what I'm talking about by saying what the Libertarian Party platform is and using it against Taibbi. As if that's what he's fighting for in his writing.
Matt Taibbi is an excellent journalist, I'm sure you can agree with that, right?
pnwmom
(108,995 posts)begins to be affected by his new employer's.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Name calling instead of listening.
pnwmom
(108,995 posts)BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)GG calls anyone who disagrees with his crusade against President Obama - a crusade he began from get-go, right back in 2009 for chrissakes - "cultists". Yet he's built up a lot of worshipers himself, right here on DU, who refuse to see his Libertarian actions, positions (he supports the Citizens United decision and the rights of White supremacists) and posts, and continue to defend him against people who see him for what he is - a charlatan, xenophobe, and racist; people who actually support a DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT who GG abhors just because HE'S BLACK (Greenwald has a problem with black people - but especially with Obama).
Makes you wonder if all those who suddenly defend and embrace Libertarian Greenwald on this site, knowing his pro-White past, knowing his support for Republicans and Republitarian positions - have that in common with him.
They nitpick the splinter in President Obama's eye, attack and criticize this president for the dumbest things, blame him for policies that REPUBLICANS IN THE HOUSE pass or block or crush saying that "he doesn't do enough" when they are politically informed enough to know exactly how our gov't works (the president is NOT a dictator and he's not more powerful than Congress), and yet that huge 8x8 beam in Libertarian/Bush-supporting/Ron Paul lovin/Citizen's United supporting Greenwald's eye is either dismissed or ignored.
It would be a cold day in HELL/HADES/SEOUL when I'll defend or embrace a person like Greenwald or take any criticism he has against this DEMOCRATIC president without a ton of salt.
I'm sorry, but when you cry "wolf!" as many times as Greenwald has, I don't tend to give you the benefit of the doubt. Besides...I despise Libertarians/Republitarians. And those who support Citizen's United.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...so I'll help: he made those remarks long before he switched over to First Look Media from Rolling Stone, yet I don't remember anyone pointing out his Libertarian tendencies before he made that move. No, people recognized his outstanding reportage on the financial rot at the heart of the global meltdown and most of us here praised him.
Then he moves to First Look, and NOW there's a whole contingent who claim he's just a Libertarian shill.
Either he did good reporting at RS or he did not. Which do you think it is, BTW? Have you revised your opinion on his RS pieces now that he has moved? Curious minds...
pnwmom
(108,995 posts)from the progressive Rolling Stone, where of course, to us, a progressive viewpoint would seem non-biased, to the Libertarian First Look?
For all we know, Rolling Stone wouldn't let him pursue all the sorts of stories he might have wanted to report on.
Time will tell.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)but was not allowed!
pnwmom
(108,995 posts)It will be interesting to see his topics from this point onwards.
He's made the move for some reason or another. Maybe it was just money, which would be understandable. Like I said, time will tell -- if he maintain his even-handed posture or not.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Are they really talking about this guy?
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/matt-taibbi-on-the-tea-party-20100928
Stay in what truck? I wonder. What the hell does that even mean?
Scanning the thousands of hopped-up faces in the crowd, I am immediately struck by two things. One is that there isn't a single black person here. The other is the truly awesome quantity of medical hardware: Seemingly every third person in the place is sucking oxygen from a tank or propping their giant atrophied glutes on motorized wheelchair-scooters. As Palin launches into her Ronald Reagan impression "Government's not the solution! Government's the problem!" the person sitting next to me leans over and explains.
"The scooters are because of Medicare," he whispers helpfully. "They have these commercials down here: 'You won't even have to pay for your scooter! Medicare will pay!' Practically everyone in Kentucky has one."
A hall full of elderly white people in Medicare-paid scooters, railing against government spending and imagining themselves revolutionaries as they cheer on the vice-presidential puppet hand-picked by the GOP establishment. If there exists a better snapshot of everything the Tea Party represents, I can't imagine it.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)He did say, in 2007, that he would probably call himself a Libertarian if asked. But one of the usual suspects ran with it to smear him.
Unbelievable isn't it?
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)these fights that we think are just local crap.
The fate of the planet is at stake.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)in order to control the masses that waking up to the lies.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)The attempt to discredit anyone who differs is a serious thing. It is meant to silence or make things uncomfortable for those who speak out in opposition to anything the party does.
It is serious.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)as far as I'm concern.
We thought we were invited but they just wanted us to be there to pump up the high school bullshit that we grew up wih on who to elected for the prom king and queen..
There is something going on a world scale that is corrupting the human conditions such as fracking , water safety, food and even electromagnetic waves that diminish the growth of human consciousness.
We know the Deep State is real now but how far do we want to understand it?
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)secret, unaccountable, targeted at Americans, undoubtedly funded by our tax dollars, is to me the most intimate sign of how sick, corrupt, and authoritarian this government has become.
What is happening in messaging from our own government is unconscionable, malignant, and creepy as hell. We've experienced massive betrayals by our government in recent years, but these sorts of revelations....mass spying; smear and disinformation; constant, orchestrated campaigns of manipulation aimed at citizens...
The relationship of the people to the US government has been fundamentally changed, and in a profound way. Perhaps we have not lived in a free country for some time now, but they have destroyed any remaining illusion of our real relationship to this government most of us were taught to believe was our own.
These are the tactics of a totalitarian state manipulating and exploiting its own people, not something any of us should have to associate with the United States of America.
ljm2002
(10,751 posts)That's why we must not be silent in the face of the onslaught.
pnwmom
(108,995 posts)The Libertarian party has been around since 1971, by the way. It could well be that Greenwald, the Constitutional "scholar" was a Libertarian from the beginning.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)Or perhaps by someone who passed our sanitized American History classes in school.
Hekate
(90,793 posts)malokvale77
(4,879 posts)"But now it is hard to post any work of any writer who is or has been critical of President Obama's policies. I really never thought about that happening on Democratic forums."
I have been a Democrat since before most on DU were born. I did not leave the Democratic Party, but the Democratic Party is damn sure leaving me.
I voted for President Obama twice. If anybody cared to look, my first OP was on my birthday and I was ecstatic over Obama's victory. I have not been so thrilled since. I'm actually becoming quite alarmed. Outside of LGBT rights (which I'm happy for) I see little difference in the political parties.
I have no problem with journalists who challenge the powers that be.
Thank you for this post.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)I used to be treated like a fairly respectable poster here. Now I am not. I think we are selling out public education as a party, and I write about it. I am now considered an Obama hater. Which is ridiculous because my late hubby and I worked hard for his campaign.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)It is disheartening to be treated like a treasonous traitor after working so hard. I will be more careful in the future.
I fear our values are laughed about. I have instilled my values in my children and grandchildren, so they will still have them to contend with. LOL, good luck with that. They are stubborn and fighters.
Keep up the good work madfloridian.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)we ourselves are also laughed about. People once respected here are no longer respected. One does not offer up criticism and be considered a worthy poster. Good chuckles are held at other forums, and it takes a tough hide to keep going here.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)malokvale77
(4,879 posts)I always look for your OPs.
I think you are one of a handful on DU who really give a damn. I count madfloridian in there, also.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)I sincerely do give a damn. Madfloridian definitely does. Many people do. I was going to start listing great people but can't because it would be too mortifying to forget some and when I started, I realized it's thankfully a nice long list.
A double welcome to you Malokvale
FloriTexan
(838 posts)madfloridian
(88,117 posts)That was the first sentence of Greenwald's preface to his book. It was a quote by Abraham Lincoln.
Here is more of Greenwald's explanation from his original blog post via DKos:
Like most people who do not work on politics or journalism full-time, I had to rely back then on standard political and media venues to form my political impressions of the world. When I first began writing about politics, I had a whole slew of conventional political beliefs that came from lazy ingestion of the false and misleading claims of these conventional political and media sources. Having the time to examine political realities first-hand has led me to realize how many of those former beliefs I held were based on myth or worse, and I've radically changed how I think about a whole slew of issues as a result of that re-examination.
The purpose of the Preface was to publicly explain that evolution. Indeed, the first sentence of this Preface was this quote from Abraham Lincoln: "I do not think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday." When I still trusted and relied upon the claims of the political and media class - when I was basically apolitical and passive - I tacitly accepted all sorts of views which I've come to see are warped and misleading. I've talked often about this process and am proud of this evolution. I have zero interest in hiding it or concealing it. Quite the contrary: I want readers to know about it. That's why I wrote the Preface.
But anyone using this Preface to claim I was a "supporter" of the Iraq War is simply fabricating. At worst, I was guilty of apathy and passivity. I did nothing for or against it because I assumed that those in positions to exercise adversarial scrutiny - in journalism and politics - were doing that. It's precisely my realization of how profoundly deceitful and failed are American political and media institutions that motivated me to begin working on politics, and it's those realizations which continue to motivate me now.
I have often posted of how much my own views have changed since I became a member here is 2002.
I have gone from being too moderate for DU to being too liberal, or as most now would phrase it....too critical of party stances on vital issues like women's rights, Social Security, and the right to a free public education.
That's quite a journey.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)I wake every day to become a little wiser. Sometimes it's damned scary. LOL
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Looking back at my first year of teaching, I think wow at least the kids and I survived. I improved every year, loved the kids more every year....but grew disillusioned with the administrators and policy makers.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)My father, who had the same teacher throughout his years in school (it was a small country town), corresponded with that teacher until he died. He was a pallbearer at the funeral.
As a child growing up, I was never told I wasn't allowed to do something. When things didn't go quite as I imagined, my father would only say "That'll learn ya". He was a wise man who had a good teacher.
diane in sf
(3,918 posts)madfloridian
(88,117 posts)of his own words.