So what happens if Russia continues to trek westward?

[davidn3600]

What happens if Putin goes into madman mode and starts amassing troops on the borders of NATO countries like Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, Estonia, Latvia, etc..? Countries that used to be in Russia's orbit and now Russia wants back in their orbit. Now these are full NATO members, I remind you...

I dont think Americans or Europeans recognize the severity of this problem. If Putin's end-game is to reconstitute the ground and influence held by the Soviet empire, he's going to end up starting World War III.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

1. The MIC will be overjoyed at the riches the new Bogeyman will spur.

[CFLDem]

8. Damn straight!

👍 👍

[Rectangle]

32. We're scared!!! Blank check for MIC, fill in amount........

What National Debt???

[madinmaryland]

34. Yeah. Nothing like a new arms race to jump start the economy.

[AverageJoe90]

2. World War III? Not really.(at least not in the Cold War context, anyway).

Yes, I hate to seem like I'm nitpicking, but the chances of a nuclear war over the Ukraine are quite slim, at best.

With that said, though, the possibility does unfortunately exist that this may become Russia's own version of Iraq; a long and bloody war that isn't really won even if things go really well for Putin & Co.

[villager]

3. This would be akin to the "domino theory" in Southeast Asia, yes?

Starting with the same Vietnam that now helps make our plastic trinkets in their factories...

[reformist2]

4. Boo! Boo! Red Scare II: Electric Boogaloo!

Nobody believes the cold war is back. Nobody.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

22. Not to be confused with --

Fascists, Fascists, Everywhere

The New Neo-Cons

All About the Oil

Nobody believes the cold war is back. Nobody.

Maybe for Putin it never ended. Unless you believe W's assessment of Putin's soul was the correct one.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

5. Um, Putin may be a thug, but he's not a mad man.

He's not going to do what you think he's going to do. It's not in his best interest to do so.

[MNBrewer]

10. That remains to be seen

[snooper2]

6. well, go west young man!

[geek tragedy]

14. you're just another

liberal supporter of the administration's policy.

[go west young man]

48. It's yet to be seen, but the probability is strong

that East Ukraine will secede on it's own accord. Putin won't have to lift a finger. Putin's overall goal has been to rebuild and strengthen the Russian economy from within. It always has been. A little research would quickly explain that for any one who's truly remotely interested in Russia other than "red scaremongering".

Take a look at where the oil money is being spent. They bought 100 new Aeroflot planes (many contracted with the West-many parts coming from Ukraine), they are building large scale high end western style malls in all major cities to create jobs-and it's working...crime is cut in half since 2002 as is unemployment...the government gives every pregnant woman $10,000 and a year off with pay for having a baby...they lowered the tax rate to a flat 13%...they are conducting major infrastructure projects on a scale similar to Eisenhower's....new roads, bridges, buildings and for the first time new subdivisions instead of just tower blocks. They are also giving huge help to manufacturers and especially Start ups. Google the Skolkovo Foundation (which incidentally is working in conjunction with MIT).

They are also weeding out corruption in local governments and implementing harsher prison sentences for theft of funding. They still have a long way to go of course but they are on the upswing.....the only true negatives are too much military spending in my opinion and corruption still prevalent in the police forces. Hence the reason a lot of crime is unreported or charges are dropped.

I think that underneath it all, this success is what is truly scaring the West. Russia has capitalism and is using it very quickly to move themselves up...possibly too quickly for the powers that be in the West. And I don't think those powers include Obama. I think the NeoCons are pushing our hurtful agenda once again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skolkovo_Institute_of_Science_and_Technology

You'll also note that the Skolkovo foundation is headed by a US space scientist from MIT. Hence we are more closely aligned with Russia than many Americans realize.

[Cali_Democrat]

49. hahahahahaha

Russia's awesomeness cannot be matched.

[go west young man]

50. Evolve please.

[go west young man]

53. Something else I'm sure you'll have a 7th grade remark for.

http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2012-03/renaissance-russian-navy

It's from our own navy by the way...not propaganda... just the way our military sees Russia's new naval developments.

[Jenoch]

7. Ukraine will not go down without a fight.

I am not too worried about Russia using nukes. If they want Ukraine, they will keep it conventional. The Ukrainian Army is mobilizing in west Ukraine with reserves and former military being called up.

[Token Republican]

9. Balkan Wars

A stronger analogy could be made to the two Balkan Wars of 1912 and 1913.

Neither one directly started a global war.

Key word is directly.

[joeybee12]

11. What I've learned from DU experts is that Putin is a saint, so unless

all those bad Nazis that overthrew the wonderful, blameless PM of Ukraine, start spreading out to other lands, Putin is only too happy just to restrore goodness and deceny to the 99.95% of Ukrainians who are appalled at what those Nazis did!

[Benton D Struckcheon]

26. ...using right wingers from Hungary and Serbia to do so.

Notice that never comes up around here somehow? Strange. Very strange.

[Crunchy Frog]

40. I've learned that he's the Second Coming of Hitler.

We must be reading different versions of DU.

[FarCenter]

12. If he crosses the Polish border, we launch all the ICBM's from ND, MT and WY.

Last edited Mon Mar 17, 2014, 06:55 PM - Edit history (1)

We hold the submarine launched ones for a second strike or to take out China.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

13. I hope that was sarcasm. eom

[FarCenter]

16. Sort of -- But here is NATO Article 5

Article 5

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security .

The view during the Cold War was (IIRC) that a thrust by Russian amour through the Fulda Gap was unlikely to be successfully resisted by conventional means. Therefore, the first use of tactical nukes within Germany by the US forces was envisioned. This would lead to an exchange of strategic nukes on European cities, which in turn escalated to full strategic strikes on the USSR and US homelands.

Consequently, Mutual Assured Destruction was assumed to deter conventional attacks in Europe as well as surprise strategic attacks.

That being the case, there was no reason not to go for a strategic first strike at the first conventional attack.

[geek tragedy]

15. he's not going to mess with NATO countries.

he knows what he can get away with, and what he can't.

Crimea was low-hanging fruit. East Ukraine won't be terribly difficult either. And that's the end of it.

[840high]

43. Totally agree.

[ManiacJoe]

17. You may be reading a bit too much into "reconstitute".

Back in the 1980s(?) Crimea was part of Russia.

[FarCenter]

21. During the breakup of the Russian Empire, the Donetsk–Krivoy Rog Republic became independent

It was given to Ukraine by Lenin when the USSR was formed in 1922.

Donetsk–Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk%E2%80%93Krivoy_Rog_Soviet_Republic

Although the peasantry was Ukrainian, the industrial cities that formed during the industrialization of the Don Basin during the period roughly 1850 to 1914 were populated heavily by Russians, Jews, and immigrants from other parts of the Russian Empire. It became the "Ruhr Valley" of Russia.

It was a hotbed of revolutionary intrigue during 1917 to WW II, and figured in the rivalry between Stalin and Trotsky. It has a rich history of corruption and vicious violence.

[ManiacJoe]

25. Wrong date, my bad.

Transferred to Ukraine by Nikita Khrushchev in 1954.

[dlwickham]

55. not it wasn't

On 19 February 1954, the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union issued a decree transferring the Crimean Oblast from the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.[34][35] The transfer of the Crimean Oblast to Ukraine has been described as a "symbolic gesture," marking the 300th anniversary of Ukraine becoming a part of the Russian Empire.[36][37] The General Secretary of the Communist Party in Soviet Union was at the time the Ukrainian Nikita Khrushchev.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#In_the_Soviet_Union

[2banon]

18. It takes two to tangle.

Last edited Mon Mar 17, 2014, 08:25 PM - Edit history (1)

World War III would only ensue, if the Neo-Cons have it their way.

The world survived and prospered throughout the first Cold War, and now that we've officially entered the Cold War 2.0, we'll just have to take out that old play book, and go by the old rules, i.e. we'll need to stay away from their turf, and they'll have to stay away from ours. Yes, I remember where all those rules were constantly being ignored. but that's the basic framework.

[JVS]

19. Then we get to find out if we really wanted to take the risks that expanding NATO involved.

I'd find it really odd if we end up blowing up the world over Estonia, but I guess it might happen.

[KamaAina]

20. He better watch out for those Latvians

they gave Canada their toughest game of the recent Olympic men's hockey tournament!

[Catherina]

23. What happened when NATO began to trek eastward, far, far away from the N. Atlantic? n/t

[2banon]

24. What happened is what we're seeing now...

The result of that insane policy.

[Catherina]

30. And the winning answer is ^^^^. +1000 n/t

[Benton D Struckcheon]

27. That was accomplished peacefully and voluntarily by all of the parties involved.

The OP is talking about a different scenario altogether. Nice try at false equivalence, though.

[Demo_Chris]

29. Not ALL the parties. We did not consult Russia. nt

[geek tragedy]

33. Russia is not a party to agreements amongst NATO countries just

as the United States is not party to agreements between Russia and its peers in Kazakhstan and Belarus.

Indeed, the whole point of NATO expansion was to prevent Russia from invading those countries.

[Demo_Chris]

36. But Russia is absolutely and properly an interested party to whst occurs in Eastern Europe...

Russia is as sensitive about its border as a Jew might be about anti Semitic rhetoric. And for the same reason, both suffered horrifically in the same event. The difference, of course, is that when WWII ended the western world rushed to do what it could to pay for our collective indifference towards the Jewish people. But in the case of Russia, we offered instead to finish the genocide the Nazis had started. We massed our armies on their borders, pointed our nuclear weapons their way, our leaders spoke openly and regularly of war while cranking out the propaganda. It was a song all too familiar to the Russian people, still suffering from the unimaginable cost of the war. America, unscathed by direct conflict, enjoyed the greatest prosperity in its history, but Russia was forced to bankrupt itself by maintaining a war footing, building tanks and planes with their limited factories. We built tanks and Chevys, they just built tanks because that's all they could do. We built superhighways and dams, they built bunkers and a buffer zone and waited for our attack.

Today, here in the west, all of that is EASY to laugh off. But it wasn't funny at the time. American kids were crouching under their school desks during mock drills, but Russian kids were doing the same in obliterated cities surrounded by the ghosts and memories of fifty million dead countrymen.

And now, today, we are still pushing. All the rhetoric aside, the west wants the Crimea and the Ukraine looking our way. Both because we want to pillage it, and because this territory is vital to Russian security.

[840high]

44. ...^ that

[geek tragedy]

47. Yes, those poor innocent Soviets who invaded

their neighbors and enslaved them.

Why, they were the real victims of those imperialist Hungarians, and Czechs, etc etc etc.

Why, we should have given them Norway and all of Germany, and thrown in Luxembourg. Maybe Alaska too.

Btw, anyone who claims we massed our armies on Russia's borders must have failed geography. That is a simple falsehood.

[Demo_Chris]

51. We massed them on the USSRs borders. The reason it wasn't Russia's border...

Is because of those buffer states.

I am not claiming Russia is an innocent victim in all this. We were RIGHT to be concerned. My point is that they had damn good reason for concern as well -- something that very few seem willing to even consider, let alone accept. Their fears were as justified as our own, and until recently we did nothing to reassure them.

[geek tragedy]

60. What part of the USSR had NATO troops massed on its borders? nt

[Benton D Struckcheon]

35. Russia joined NATO?????

Holy Toledo, Batman! When did that happen?

[Demo_Chris]

37. NATO is not the only interested party. nt

[Benton D Struckcheon]

39. Interested as used here meant actual

parties with signing authority. Putin's authority over another country's decision is nil. His authority ends at the Russian border.

[Demo_Chris]

41. It seems he didn't get that memo. nt

[Benton D Struckcheon]

42. Russia signed the Budapest Memo,

so maybe someone needs to read that to him.

[davidn3600]

45. So any country that neighbors Russia must get Moscow's permission?

I doubt that's going to end well. Those countries are independent and feel as if they can control their own destiny without worrying about how it effects Kremlin's plans for world domination.

[name not needed]

28. We'll ban another twelve people from going to Disney World

[SolutionisSolidarity]

31. The same thing that would happen if the US invaded Siberia.

That's why it won't happen. Despite the cold war hysteria, Putin is neither insane or stupid.

[grahamhgreen]

38. Crimea Vote: 83% of Eligible Voters. Salaries & Pensions (SS) to Double. Retirement Age Drops:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024679277

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. Horrors!! Those damned Russkis are trying to undermine poverty in Crimea!!

[Deep13]

52. I think he just wanted Russia's warm water port back. nt

[dipsydoodle]

58. Same here.

There may have been a risk of Kiev attempting to revoke the lease.

Some countries of late have been known to change their laws at later dates to suit themselves and that has already given rise to financial contracts being made subject to the laws of other countries - for example Russia's $3 billion to Ukraine in December and latter day Greeks loans / bonds are both subject to UK law. Argentina's bonds were subject to NY law.

[cherokeeprogressive]

54. We draw red lines with our toes while backing up, holding our fingers in our ears...

And chanting LALALA

[woodsprite]

56. My first thought was "He's pulling a Hitler".

And look how many stupid repubs and t-baggers want us to reward him for it.

[B Calm]

57. oh please. . .

Quit watching Sunday morning talk shows!

[Earth_First]

59. What happens when other breakaway regions begin asking to rejoin Russia? nt