Sorry folks, but there's no way that Zimmerman will be convicted..........

[socialist_n_TN]

on any charge. WAY too much "reasonable" doubt floating around now, especially with the way the "justice" system works in this country. The best that we can hope for is that he's actually arrested and charged.

[orpupilofnature57]

1. FLA has a way of obscuring Justice.n/t

[socialist_n_TN]

14. Yep..........

And even if it goes to Federal court (say, violation of Trayvon's civil rights), the trial will probably STILL be held in FL. And there WILL be at least ONE juror that will hold out against conviction. If not all of them.

[Moonwalk]

2. If that's the case, then you know what's coming...

There will be riots. We saw it in the 60's and we saw it in the 90's. Deny justice one too many times, show off that blatant racial bias one too many times, and cities will go up in flames. It becomes the only way for people to scream at the world that they aren't going to let this go on any longer.

It doesn't, alas, usually succeed, but that is what's coming.

[socialist_n_TN]

6. Yep. I'm afraid you're right.........

I just hope the rioters are savvy enough to take it out on the PTB rather than citizens who probably support them.

[cherokeeprogressive]

51. Yeah... I'm thinking rioters and savvy don't belong in the same sentence.

When the mob mentality takes over, every storefront, every car, every business is fair game. Rioters have no way of knowing whose business they're ransacking. The worst part for me is that riots always lead to looting, as if someone's misfortune and/or miscarriage of justice makes it right to take something that doesn't belong to the looter.

[cynatnite]

8. I can't tell you how much I hope you're wrong...

The cops screwed this up right from the beginning.

[JoePhilly]

3. My concern is that the Police bungled this so badly, all of the forensic evidence is now worthless.

Since they decided there was no crime, I wonder if they took the time to take all the photos and measurements that should be taken.

How close together were the two when the shots were fired? What was the trajectory of the bullet? Did they take Zimmerman's cloths? If Zimmerman was attacked, and his nose was broken, what evidence of this was found on the body of the dead boy?

There are a large number of questions that may never be answered, questions that would prove guilt or innocence, that can probably never be answered because the police didn't (it appears) do their job.

[socialist_n_TN]

7. Another reason that he will get off.........

The incompetence/bias of the cops will prevent making any sort of case against Zimmerman. This was a cluster fuck on a MASSIVE scale and justice for Trayvon will never happen. At least not justice in the courts.

[great white snark]

18. I agree.

And you can never get that evidence back.

Hey, good to see you posting!

[CAPHAVOC]

4. He can only be convicted

If the Feds investigate the Sanford PD and find wrongdoing. Big wrongdoing. That may be the reason for the delay of presenting evidence to the Grand Jury. But now I worry about the Left going against the basis of the state having the burden of proof. They seem to be joining the Right Wingers. As per your post. You can not be selective on a case by case basis in these matters.

[Ohio Joe]

5. What doubt?

I don't seem to be able to find this.

[socialist_n_TN]

9. So you don't think that at least ONE person on a 12 person panel.......

will vote to acquit? You have a lot more faith in the justice system than I do.

[Ohio Joe]

13. Faith in the justice system and announcing there is doubt are two different things

I've seen nothing that casts any doubt.

[socialist_n_TN]

16. I agree. But neither of us will be on a jury.........

and there WILL be at LEAST one juror who will hang it. Based on RW talking points.

[Ohio Joe]

21. ahhh

Your OP came across differently to me... To be honest, it still does but I see what you are saying now.

[jwirr]

15. When put that way you make a lot of sense.

[Logical]

11. Here is the story Zimmerman and his Judge dad have made up.....

Zimmerman walked up to the kid and asked him what he was doing.
The kid said none of your business.
Zimmerman started walking back to his truck to call the police with an update on the location of the kid
The kid attacked zimmerman from behind, tackled him and started beating him.
Zimmerman, fearing for his life, shot him.

[Ohio Joe]

17. I do not see that as casting any doubt...

I understand it is not you saying or supporting it... I can't see any reasonable person buying it any more then Goodmans story.

[Logical]

20. But you only need ONE right wing or racist or NRA member to vote not guilty. And I 100% do not...

think Zimmerman is innocent. I think he kmurdered him. But the story might work on one dumbass juror.

[Ohio Joe]

23. I can see that happening

I thought from the OP there was something new I had missed showing zimmerman innocent. I see now it is really about our failed justice system.

[Logical]

25. True. And I wonder how hard the prosecutor will actually try to get a conviction at this point.

[socialist_n_TN]

35. That's why I'm not even sure he will be indicted..........

at least on a state charge. A prosecutor might look at what they've got and think, "No way to get a conviction now." Of course, public pressure might FORCE a prosecutor's hand in this and in that case, I would wonder how hard the prosecutor will try for conviction.

Unless Zimmerman plea bargains something, he won't spend much time in prison.

[Logical]

39. He will not plea out. Dads a judge. And knows the legal system in Florida.

[socialist_n_TN]

22. The "doubt" that I'm referring to..........

are all the RW talking points that have filled the airways since this blew up. And maybe I should have included the word doubt in quotes like "reasonable".

Basically, I'm saying that there'll never be a conviction. The fascists have roiled the waters too much for a conviction to be possible.

[Ohio Joe]

24. oh, I agree, our justice system is fucked up

I mis-understood the OP, sorry.

[coalition_unwilling]

78. The Feds got convictions on federal civil rights violations in the Rodney King case, when

the victim (Rodney King) was arguably far less sympathetic than Martin. So I'm not willing to dismiss entirely the possibility of justice being served here.

That said, I think there needs to be a serious investigation of the Sanford PD itself and its practices. And maybe the Florida state law enforcement apparatus as well.

[COLGATE4]

82. Yes, but with King they had a tape of the whole incident. nt

[coalition_unwilling]

86. A good point. Not to mention that the nation's second largest

city had gone up in flames after the initial Simi Valley verdict.

[kestrel91316]

10. The wrongful death lawsuit will do him in.

[Logical]

12. Maybe prevented from suing in Florida if the shooting is ruled self defense.

[LisaL]

19. Yes, if it's ruled self-defense he is protected from civil lawsuits.

[Thinkingabout]

26. They have the. 911 tapes when Zimmerman

Called in, the dispatcher telling him not to follow, the call Martin was on with his girlfriend and other 911 calls from the neighbors. Hopefully the parents has some recordings of their sons voice and the FBI could determine whose voice was yelling help.

[LisaL]

27. Call to a girlfriend was not recorded.

[Ecumenist]

49. The actual conversation wasn't recorded BUT the phone records confirm that Tray HAD

called and was speaking to the girlfriend around the time of the altercation. That part isn't in contention.

[socialist_n_TN]

30. Oh, there's plenty of evidence against Zimmerman.........

but as I've said above, Faux Noise and the other usual suspects have roiled the waters so much that there will be at least ONE (if not more) potential jurors who will use them as an excuse to acquit under the SYG law.

[RobertEarl]

28. No way convicted of what?

You seem so sure. Do you think he will never even be charged with anything?

I think he will be charged and convicted of something.

[socialist_n_TN]

33. Well I'm not sure that he will be charged with anything...........

Hopefully, there will at least be a federal charge of denial of Trayvon's civil rights. But because of the incompetence/bias of the cops who answered the call (above post about all of the crime scene investigation THAT DID NOT HAPPEN), there won't be a conviction. And if some miracle happens and he IS convicted of something, he will get off on appeal.

That's the way the justice system works when it's white on black crime. At least the way it works nowdays.

[RobertEarl]

36. Nah

He will be convicted of something. THAT is how justice works. They'd be idiots to let him walk free. They are not idiots. Don't worry, they'll get him on some charge, and then a civil suit will nail his ass better.

See, this case is all too public now. And Zimmerman will be proved to have acted incorrectly.

[socialist_n_TN]

37. We'll see.......

nm

[Tejas]

38. so Zimmerman is white?

"That's the way the justice system works when it's white on black crime. At least the way it works nowdays."

This is getting so confusing.

[Dan]

29. You're wrong!!!! And you know why,..

Because regardless of what the legal system does... he has already been convicted!

He is the 21st century O.J..

Your thoughts, and do you Agree or disagree?

[Ohio Joe]

31. ummm... WTF?

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

[Dan]

41. the example is O.J.

It ultimately didn't matter that he was not convicted of the crime he was excused of - he was convicted in a significant portion of the American public's mind. ... that is the example, Mr. Zimmermen's life as he knew it, is over. ...sorry, if I was not clear.

[Ohio Joe]

42. So he should get what? Sympathy? Fuck that.

The fucker killed an unarmed kid because the kid was black. It does matter that he gets convicted, he deserves prison.

[Dan]

43. You are the example of what I mean...

No one said sympathy, ...smile. But, the anger, the frustration, the sense of outrage, the feelings that every parents/person feels as they become aware of what happens, and yes, the fear that as parents we all feel (that for the grace of ....);

He has been convicted in the mind of the public - his life, the life that he knew, before, it is over.

It may not be enough, but it is a reality....

[Ohio Joe]

44. Good

The facts are clear. He stalked, accosted and killed an unarmed kid. There is no defense of this, he does not deserve to keep his "life that he knew".

[socialist_n_TN]

46. I agree. He does NOT deserve to keep the ...........

"life that he knew". Trayvon didn't get to keep his life. PERIOD. Justice will only be served karmically.

[socialist_n_TN]

34. LEGALLY convicted........

Because it doesn't really matter what the public thinks. The only thing that will convict Zimmerman is karma.

[Dan]

48. I respect your opinion, but I beg to disagree....

No person is an island, and it does matter what the public thinks. The public is our family, neighbors, friends, the people we love, the ones that we face every day. While we may pretend that we are indifferent to the opinions of the 'public', their opinion of us - does matter.

Everyone, at some time, wants to be, if not loved, at least treated with some respect and provided with a sense of community.

Even within his family, there will always from this point forward, be whispers, glances our of the corner of the eyes, conversations discontinued when he walks in a room, and always the unspoken the silent (and occasional not so silent) condemnation of the community.

No punishment by society, the legal system, or the public will bring that young man back to life. There is nothing that can be done to heal the parents - the loss to their family and friends; nothing that will lessen the sadness to the people left behind; we have all been damaged by this event - and that is why there is a national outrage.

Mr. Zimmermen's future is one that will be filled with emptiness, regrets, and a life time trying to validate or justify that which cannot be justified. It will be a living hell.

That is my opinion...

[socialist_n_TN]

53. So his life will be a living hell?.........

At least he has a life. The other protagonist in this incident doesn't. And WHY do you think that any of his friends and family would chastize him? These friends and family are obviously RWers. They will probably be patting him on the back so much he'll have bruises.

[Dan]

56. Right, left....

We all have children.... and we know when something evil has happened...

[socialist_n_TN]

60. To a RWer, killing a "suspicious looking"..........

character is not evil. At worst it's a "mistake". At best it means he kept the kid from murdering some white guy in the future.

[cherokeeprogressive]

59. In a fucked up way, I think the poster might be right, even if by accident.

Farrakhan has all but promised "retaliation" for this and in doing so he tacitly made it okay for someone who thinks like he does to extract whatever justice they may feel to be appropriate.

Frankly, I don't give a dime for Zimmerman's life or continued safety. Someone will find him alone sooner or later. FWIW, I believe Zimmerman should be tried for second degree murder and if convicted, given the maximum sentence allowed under the law. If he's convicted, I wouldn't give a nickel for his life or safety behind bars.

The poster isn't feeling sorry for Zimmerman, he's just stating fact, IMO.

[COLGATE4]

83. You don't seem to know Central Florida

very well. After all this is done and he skates I wouldn't be surprised to see them give him the key to the city of Sanford.

[Dan]

85. that's sad

[Ecumenist]

54. WTF? Beyond gender and nationalty, what does Oj LYING IN WAIT AND

MURDERING HIS WIFE AND RON GOLDMAN, after stalking and threatening his ex-wife have to do with zimmerman hunting down and SLAUGHTERING a CHILD who was WALKING home to his papa's house, armed with skittles and Arizona tea? Oh yeah, this child was a stranger to his murderer? Aw hell, I disagree to the nth degree. Once again, WTF??!!

[Dan]

57. Sorry, I can't help you.

It has to do with 'people' and how we feel, and how we react to 'evil'.

But it's okay to disagree, I was sharing my thoughts.

[Motown_Johnny]

32. Juries can be hard to predict

I am not betting on anything at this point.

[joshcryer]

52. Juries are more accurate than judges when it comes to conviction / guilty.

It's a good system. I think that bashing the jury system goes against democratic principles, to be honest.

[Motown_Johnny]

76. I'm not trying to bash anything

just commenting on the OP and the idea that something like this can be predicted

[L0oniX]

40. ...

I've already seen what the irrational mob can do to a thread. They won't discuss what you want to discuss which is about irrationality but instead they will try to trash your thread and devolve it into insults.

[Nye Bevan]

45. I'm predicting a plea deal for manslaughter with about 3 to 5 years of prison time.

The DA will be desperate to avoid a trial, as the consequences of losing could well be terrible (riots). And Zimmerman will probably want to avoid even the outside chance of a murder one conviction. A trial would also be a circus, with demonstrations and unrest accompanying it. And unfortunately, given that the main witness is dead, it would be hard to prove murder beyond a reasonable doubt.

I am *not* saying that this would be a fair outcome. Zimmerman deserves much more punishment. But given our justice system I think this is how it will play out.

[socialist_n_TN]

47. I doubt that Zimmerman will plea bargain.........

As another poster above pointed out, Diddy's a Florida judge. It's not what you know, but WHO you know. And I'm sure Judge Diddy knows plenty.

Anyway, a jury won't convict even if the prosecutors or the GJ decide to indict.

There might be a federal indictment for civil rights violations, but I suspect that will be all. And since this has been a cluster fuck from the beginning, I even doubt that will convict him.

[X_Digger]

61. Dad's a retired Virginia Magistrate judge (think traffic court.) n/t

[Nye Bevan]

62. Judges themselves go to prison sometimes.

And even a 1% chance of getting life without parole for murder one is pretty scary. I still say he probably does 3 years or so in prison.

[socialist_n_TN]

65. We'll see.......

nm

[coalition_unwilling]

80. They won't charge Zimmerman with first degree murder, because it was not

first degree murder (pre-meditated), from everything I've read.

[joshcryer]

50. Have you ever served on a jury? If he's charged he's toast.

The "fucking coons" comment, the "they always get away" comment, the fact that he was chasing the guy down, against the orders of the 911 operator. He's done, toast.

[socialist_n_TN]

55. Yes. As a matter of fact, I served on a murder trial just last year..........

And all it takes is ONE to hang the jury. In Florida (as in Tennessee), I doubt that there will just be one.

[joshcryer]

66. A hung jury results in a mistrial and a retrial. A high profile case like this...

...is highly unlikely to result in a hung jury, and if it does, it will be retried. I find it impossible to believe that 12 jurors would acquit this guy, so as far as I can tell there are only two outcomes. Guilty (unless there's information we don't have, such as evidence that Zimmerman was walking back to his car, and was attacked, something like that, which is not the case from the evidence we have available), or hung jury.

[socialist_n_TN]

71. I agree that a mistrial MIGHT be retried.........

unless everything dies down and they think they can get away with NO retrial.

I'm still not sure he's even going to be indicted myself. At least not at the state level.

[Ecumenist]

58. Amen, JoshCryer, I believe that there are FAR more people disgusted by what

happened than the population of the RW echo chamber who have worked in a frenzied manner to try to justify the senseless slaughter of a CHILD! I think that the OP is not taking into consideration the ANGER and DISGUST that has cut across ethnic, regional, gender ans socioeconomic lines. Oh yeah...FAR MORE "conservatives are disgusted and angered than the EXTREME nuts who are flailing to justify the murder of an unarmed, AMERICAN high school MINOR!

[socialist_n_TN]

63. We'll see.......

nm

[slackmaster]

64. I've served on juries. Talk can help establish a state of mind, HOWEVER...

If the evidence left me with a reasonable possibility that Trayvon might have attacked Zimmerman physically, I'd have to vote to acquit even if I had concluded that the shooting was morally wrong.

[joshcryer]

67. So far there exist no evidence to those ends, though.

As far as we know the entire case hinges on the fact that a man followed another and killed him after creating an altercation. It is not hard for any jury, with the information we have available, to fry this guy.

If there is evidence we do not have, and it results in a jury finding him not guilty, then justice would have been served and the desire to hang Zimmerman is misplaced out of ignorance of that evidence.

[slackmaster]

68. I am very sure that there is a plethora of evidence that has not been published

[joshcryer]

69. I think the PD dropped the ball and clearly did not do the proper investigating.

I look forward to seeing the rest of what they have to say.

[slackmaster]

75. I'll be surprised if it turns out that they did a thorough job

But right now I don't know. The fact that information isn't available for download, and even that it hasn't been discussed by someone who would know about it, doesn't prove that it does not exist.

[socialist_n_TN]

70. And see that's what a jury in Florida would hinge this on........

I would suspect that even if Trayvon was fighting back AFTER being attacked, the jury is going to side with SYG for Zimmerman. Because he was a scary black kid in a hoodie in a white neighborhood. THAT'S the attitude that the RW apologists are trying to gin up.

In addition, there won't be any physical evidence collected at the scene presented, so that's going to cast some doubt there. Also, the cops at the scene considered it justified. They didn't even disarm Zimmerman. That's going to cast doubt on any prosecution. Another thing, any story that Zimmerman tells that doesn't OUTRIGHT contradict any of the witnesses, will be uncontested because the other protagonist is dead. That's doubt. And at least SOME of the witnesses appear to support Zimmerman. More doubt.

At what point will all this doubt add up to acquital? Or even no indictment period? That's why I don't think that he will ever be convicted. And maybe not even indicted.

[X_Digger]

72. Actually, if Martin was fighting back after being attacked, SYG wouldn't apply. (for Zimmerman)

And according to the police reports (assuming they're credible at all), Zimmerman's firearm was placed in evidence.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf

Another poster suggested it might have been returned to Zimmerman, but I can't find a cite for that.

[slackmaster]

74. We don't know that no physical evidence was collected at the scene

Or that the police didn't disarm Zimmerman temporarily.

I believe there is a lot of evidence that is not on the Web.

[Solomon]

77. pipe dream

They can convict people even when there's no body.

He's gonna do time. If they can find him when they get off their asses and decide to arrest him,

[rucky]

79. Trayvon was being hunted and if he did attack Zimmerman...

it was in self-defense. There's no doubt who the aggressor was. Trayvon had reasonable fear for his safety. Zimmerman was out looking for trouble - literally.

[Broderick]

73. I wasn't there. I don't know what happened.

Can't predict justice or the outcome.

[KT2000]

81. What about the fact that he pursued

Trayvon and that resulted in his death. He had no right to even pursue him - he was not a cop.
There has to be something that can stick.

[socialist_n_TN]

84. Directly to you KT and indirectly to all..........

I did not mean to imply that Zimmerman SHOULD be acquitted because there was ANY true "reasonable doubt". Zimmerman, IMO, should be tried for at a minimum second degree murder, convicted, and spend some SERIOUS time in prison.

I just don't think it's going to happen. It was a white guy killing a black kid wearing a hoodie in a gated, mostly white neighborhood in the state of Florida. In addition, the RW media/propaganda empire has ginned up all sorts of "questions" about this case. It would be the same in Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia and probably Texas. These "questions" are deliberately put into the public mind in order to provide cover for a jury nullification of any indictment of Zimmerman at the actual trial. And with the police incompetence involving the crime scene investigation AND them letting him go without arrest or even questioning, that brings up even MORE excuses for nullification.

Hey I could be wrong. It's happened before. But as a life-long son of the south, I've seen how these things work many times. Hence my doubts as to any successful prosecution of Zimmerman.

[joeybee12]

87. Thanks for the insight...thank God we won't have to waste money on a trial!

[X_Digger]

88. See the reply above yours. I think the OP just means it's going to be damnded hard..

.. given all the circumstances.