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Are_grits_groceries

(17,111 posts)
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 08:20 AM Mar 2014

Kremlin’s Eurasian ideology and its propaganda about the Kiev uprising.(Another view)

Kremlin’s Eurasian ideology and its propaganda about the Kiev uprising.
<snip>
Parliament declared that he had abandoned his responsibilities, followed the protocols that applied to such a case, and continued the process of constitutional reform by itself. Presidential elections were called for May, and a new government was formed. The prime minister is a liberal conservative, one of the two deputy prime ministers is Jewish, and the governor of the important eastern province of Dnipropetrovsk is the president of the Congress of Ukrainian Jewish Organizations. Although one can certainly debate the constitutional nuances, this process was not a coup. And it certainly was not fascist. Reducing the powers of the president, calling presidential elections, and restoring the principles of democracy are the opposite of what fascism would demand. Leaders of the Jewish community have declared their unambiguous support for the new government and their total opposition to the Russian invasion.

Of the eighteen cabinet posts that have been filled in the new government, three are held by members of the far right party, Svoboda. Its leader had less than 2 percent support in a recent opinion poll—one that was taken after the Russian invasion of Crimea, an event that presumably would help the nationalists. In any event, this is the grain of truth from which, according to the traditional rules of propaganda, Putin’s “fascist coup” has been concocted.

The second conceit, that of the oppression of Russian citizens in the Ukraine, lacks even this. Over the last few months one Russian citizen has been killed in Ukraine. He was not threatened by Ukrainian protestors or by the current government. Quite the opposite. He was fighting for the Ukrainian revolution, and was killed by a sniper’s bullet.

In any case, since Ukraine does not allow double citizenship, there are few Russian citizens resident in the country. But let’s consider those that are: One notable group are the soldiers and sailors at the military base at Sevastopol. Since these are military men on a military base, they hardly need protection. Another major group are those masked Russian special-forces who are now occupying Crimea. A third are the Russians who have been bused across the border to stage pro-Russian demonstrations and beat Ukrainian students in the cities of eastern Ukraine. A final group of Russian citizens are former Ukrainian riot policemen who took part in the suppression of demonstrations. Having been rewarded for their actions with a Russian passport, they can and do travel to Russia. None of these groups, by any stretch of the imagination, could be plausibly described as a victimized minority requiring protection.
<snip>
More: http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/07/crimea-putin-vs-reality/

There are more reports and views than you can shake a stick at. Kernels of truth are probably found in all of them.
Reporters in Russia and other observers who have been working for years are seriously worried about Putin's mindset. Here is an article about this:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/08/world/europe/russias-move-into-ukraine-said-to-be-born-in-shadows.html

I have no idea what will happen. Putin is apparently operating with an ad hoc plan. There are too many wild cards in the deck to be sure of anything.

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Kremlin’s Eurasian ideology and its propaganda about the Kiev uprising.(Another view) (Original Post) Are_grits_groceries Mar 2014 OP
I think there are people on all sides playing fast and loose with the situation. CJCRANE Mar 2014 #1
There are two stories: The Geoplitical, and what is happening to the people of Ukraine newthinking Mar 2014 #2
When you are in a situation of us vs them as Are_grits_groceries Mar 2014 #3
Common interests can be found CJCRANE Mar 2014 #4

CJCRANE

(18,184 posts)
1. I think there are people on all sides playing fast and loose with the situation.
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 08:30 AM
Mar 2014

Did you listen to Nuland's phone call? That seemed pretty ad hoc too. There was obviously stuff going on behind the scenes.

It's the Great Game / Cold War all over again. Politicians moving people around like pieces on a chessboard to gain advantage.

In this instance I'd prefer the neolibs on our side (rather than the neocons) to gain the upper hand and craft a solution that allows everyone to save face.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
2. There are two stories: The Geoplitical, and what is happening to the people of Ukraine
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 08:40 AM
Mar 2014

The EU, US, Russia, would all like us to view this formost through their lenses.

But there is another story underneath, and it affects real people there in Ukraine. They are being tossed to and fro by media reports like what is above.

The fact is you simply cannot understand what happened without knowing what caused the crises to come into place.

Argue about what Russia's intentions are, but please don't place disinfo that whitewashrd what happened in Kiev and what groups are now in power.

So far, the official narrative is helping far right neo nazi's, and hurting half the country who are in fear (as we would be too) because a state sponsered movement that included and empored Neo Nazi radicals overthrew their government and is in control.

How can ANYONE rationalize having Neo-Nazi's in cabinet positions in Kiev with the power of Ukraine's military in their hands? What exactly are our values that we can misrepresent that fact? Do you think it would be ok for Neo-Nazi's to be in cabinet positions in our own government? Think about it?

Are_grits_groceries

(17,111 posts)
3. When you are in a situation of us vs them as
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 09:28 AM
Mar 2014

became the case in Ukraine, there are no nuances. It becomes 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend.' At times, you don't or can't choose your allies. Don't pretend this has not happened over and over through history.

The problem is what happens after the common enemy has been vanquished. How do you deal with those you have major differences with?
At the end of WWII, the US and Russia were at loggerheads immediately. The US enacted the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe to provide allies and a bulwark against the USSR.

In Ukraine, they are trying to co-exist. I don't think this will work. However, if Russia pushes forward beyond Crimea, they will be uneasy allies again. At this point, neither can do without the other in the face of this threat.
Now if you think they should start fighting each other at this point, you are ignoring reality.

I am not ignoring or whitewashing what happened in Kiev. One side claims it is mostly neo-nazis who fomented and carried out the protests. Another side claims it was completely carried out by people with only Ukrainian rights as their cause. I believe the truth is in the middl.

You can call my view rationalizing. It is the reality when push come to shove and a real fight breaks out such as fighting Yanukovich or now the Russin. It is nasty and it is brutal. The citizens will be viewed as pro-Russia or pro-Ukraine. Sitting on the sidelines will not be an option because you will be included in one or the other by some arbitrary measure that each side uses.


CJCRANE

(18,184 posts)
4. Common interests can be found
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 09:35 AM
Mar 2014

like in the cooperation over settling the Iranian nuclear issue and the Syria chemical weapons issue.

Playing a game of "us vs them" only plays into neocon hands to promote more conflict and instability in the world.

Neocons gain when conflicts start and oil prices go up.

Neolibs gain when there is stability and free trade.

These are the two poles in the world today, not East vs West.

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