Confederate Flag, Celtic Cross on display in Kiev City Hall.

[MattSh]

In the following video filmed in the Kiev City Hall and posted in late December 2013, we can clearly see on the pillars two flags which are listed in the Anti-Defamation League’s (ADL) “Visual Database of Extremist Symbols, Logos and Tattoos”: the White power flag and the Confederate flag.

About the Confederate flag:



About the Celtic Cross:


.
.
.
Nope, no extremism here.
.
.
.

[Starry Messenger]

1. Not only that, but I love the new argument emerging.

Which goes something like this: Aw, it's just a *few* Nazis in there. Stop making a mountain out of a molehill!

Beggars belief.

[JVS]

42. Remember

You attend an anti-NSA protest and you're the tool of Ron Paul and various teabaggers. You join fascists to topple an elected government and you're a hero.

[Starry Messenger]

43. This.

[malthaussen]

2. Didn't know the Celtic Cross had been appropriated in this manner.

Well, it won't be the first or last symbol appropriated by hate groups. cf "Swastika."

-- Mal

[LuvNewcastle]

6. I didn't know that either.

I guess they intend to taint every symbol with their hate. It's fucking sad.

[dmosh42]

22. I think they have the Celtic cross confused with something else, or my descendants won't be happy...

knowing they are buried with some racist symbol over them. The Ukes seem to be as fucked up as Michelle Bachman when it comes to history!

[Kali]

26. I didn't know that either, but interesting that the screen cap cuts off the rest of the text:

This is one of the most popular symbols for neo-Nazis and white supremacists. First popularized by the Ku Klux Klan, the symbol was later adopted by the National Front in England and other racists such as Don Black on his Web site, Stormfront, and the racist band Skrewdriver to represent international "white pride." It is also known as Odin’s Cross. It is important to note that the Celtic Cross is used widely today in many mainstream and cultural contexts. No one should assume that a Celtic Cross, divorced from other trappings of extremism, automatically denotes use as a hate symbol.

[Berlum]

38. "SymbolPerv is just good old darkside Republicon Occultism, Global Style." - Sarah Pale Horse

[sibelian]

39. As a Scotsman...

I am very, very unhappy with this.

[2banon]

48. I didn't know it either.. sucks that it's associated with hate neo-nazi groups

i guess that will mean that If I wear any celtic jewelry at anytime it could be construed as neo-nazi symbols. that sucks.

[cali]

3. Of course there are right wing extremists

involved in the protests and in the new government- as well as in the old one, but how significant this is, is unknown from your post.

Who hung them? Were they officially sanctioned, etc.

I don't know the answers to that.

Here's what I know: that there is a significant activist, nationalist right wing in Ukraine and that they have been gaining strength over the past decade. However, I believe it's absurd to characterize all the protesters and opposition to Yanukovich was made up almost entirely of "right wing thugs" sponsored by the west.

[go west young man]

9. The BBC has the story on them.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26468720

The Far Right minority has control of 4 ministry buildings including the ministry of defense and are pushing for a disproportionate amount of control in the new government. It doesn't look good for Europe considering the nazi far right aspect. The EU is pushing to get some centrists in the new government but the best they can do at this point is getting some oligarchs that have interests in Russia and Europe. This whole thing looks like it could swing back to a scenario that was much worse than before minus the Russian $15 billion package and the Chinese $8 billion that were recently worked out by the old government.

They are now flat broke with the EU making vague promises of money attached to loans and austerity principles plus no gas (twice as expensive if there is any) and a government that is going to be more far right and corrupt than the one they had. They have a saying in Russian/Eastern Bloc countries "Eta Russia" which basically means "it could always be worse." Hence the reason Russians stick with the leader they currently have. They know something worse could come along. For Ukraine it has.

Their best hope is that after the EU has fracked the shit out of them (instead of themselves) that they will emerge somewhat better off in a decade or so. However, considering Ukraine is very very Russian in language and lifestyle it is much more likely that they're leadership will be right where they were before this all happened in ten years time. They have to have gas now to survive. That is the reality. This is why democratic countries hold elections and don't let extreme minorities conduct complete overthrows of governments. A coup does not always produce a good result.

[cali]

13. yes, I know they have control of 4 ministries.

we'll see how things sugar off.

[2banon]

49. or like Nulin said: Things will go "Jelly Up" for us... jeeze who are these people!

[MattSh]

15. Agreed, though...

this thread I posted earlier this week probably helps put it in a better context...

An Interview with Mira, Andrei, and Sascha of AntiFascist Action Ukraine

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024617439

[Cleita]

4. My 100% Irish step daughter has Celtic crosses in all her gardens on

her property. I'm dismayed it has been appropriated by those racist groups because she and her Mexican-American husband are not racist.

[JustAnotherGen]

5. Can't speak for the Celtic Cross

But seriously - these people are using the losing side's flag from the Civil War?

They must not have a firm grasp on American History.

[Democracyinkind]

7. Bizzarely, I see it allot when traveling through Eastern Europe. nt

[2banon]

50. Really? The Confederate Flag in Eastern Europe? Wow!

[Igel]

17. How firm's your grasp of Ukrainian history?

So there are two blue-and-yellow Ukrainian flags.

One has the blue at the top and the yellow at the bottom.

The other has yellow at the top and blue at the bottom.

Quick:

Which one is the official flag now?

What was the difference between them when they were first used?



(Hint: One of the variants was adopted by a pro-Russian government, the other was unofficial and used by a pro-independence government.)

[Blue_Tires]

24. So what's the Ukrainian interest in the stars and bars?

Yes, I know some people in some european countries have occasionally adopted it to represent the "south" in their nation in a theoretically non-racist manner, but I'm curious to know the motivation behind choosing it.....

[JustAnotherGen]

35. Me too

I know it as a symbol of domestic terrorists and people who got their asses handed to them by the United States military.

[Behind the Aegis]

47. As an FYI...

The Stars and Bars is used the world over, in much the same way the swastika is. It is no where near as popular, to be sure. But, I have seen it used in France, Canada, the UK, and I think, Greece (I could be remembering wrong) when I was actively studying white supremacy from other nations. It has been co-opted like other things, such as the Celtic Cross, the word "Aryan," and the myths of the Norse and Celts.

I hope that answers your question.

[JustAnotherGen]

37. I don't know the answers

I only know it got waved around a lot to try and intimidate my family from not taking their American dream during the oppressive terrorist regime called Jim Crow. . I'm allowed to see it from my perspective and from this distance that's how I see it. I have my own battles to fight for justice right here in America.

[2banon]

51. Well put!

[EmilyAnne]

28. I saw these flags a lot when I lived in Russia.

I don't think the people displaying them really "got" the meaning.
One of them was displayed prominently at a Saint Petersburg rockabilly club.
The place was hilarious.
Lot's of Johnny Cash posters, too.

[FSogol]

8. I wonder why you clipped off this part of the info on the Celtic Cross:

"its use is overwhelmingly non-extremist and does not denote white supremacy or racism in the absence of other hate symbols."

[CJCRANE]

10. If it's next to the Confederate Flag that sort of negates "in the absence of other hate symbols".

The context seems to support the OP.

[FSogol]

11. Except the context is: There are white supremacists in Kiev so the Russians must be right.

Ridiculous agendas abound.



Should Russia invade Florida because the KKK is active there?

[CJCRANE]

14. I think it's more nuanced than that. Neither one is right. Each side has their own interests

and complications.

There is a continuum of possibilities between "Russia = the only bad side" and "Ukraine = the only bad side".

[FSogol]

16. Agreed. My comment was on the OP who has been promoting a Pro-Putin campaign.

Little nuance there.

[jtuck004]

56. And the OP lives right in the big middle of it, while most of the rest of us only know

the propaganda we are fed from others.

I trust the poster far more than many others.

[Ikonoklast]

18. Don't you know, everyone not wanting to be under Putin's thumb are Right-Wing Racists.

The desperation of the loony left.

[FSogol]

20. Well, Putin IS dreamy.

[Ikonoklast]

21. Silly people here still think Russia is Communist.

And that Putin is anything except a tool of the Oligarchs who really run things.

[MattSh]

19. Sorry...

I found that posted on another site exactly how you see it. Probably should have gone to the source for the graphic.

But also...

The flag of Svoboda is on display. From Wikipedia...

The party was founded in 1991 as the Social-National Party of Ukraine (Ukrainian: Соціал-національна партія України ) and acts as a populist proponent of nationalism and anti-communism. It is positioned on the right of the Ukrainian political spectrum,[2][10][11][12][13] and has been described by some scholars as far-right.[4][14][15][16] Svoboda’s socioeconomic platform has been described as similar to that of the Republican Party for the United States, and its approach to ethnic relations as mirroring policy in the Baltic states.[17]

Also note the red and black flag at the beginning of the video. Red and black are prominent colors in Nazi symbology, meaning blood and soil.

[Brickbat]

12. There are neo-Nazis or right-wing extremists at pretty much every protest in the former Soviet

Union. That doesn't excuse any of it, or imply that there isn't a problem, or that they aren't a threat. In my experience, they show up to wherever people are protesting, trying to get involved, get recruits and advance their agenda. They offer discontent to everyone. When they find an opening, they take it.

[alcibiades_mystery]

23. I'm sure this is just Russian propaganda, and the pure Ukrainian revolution is super awesome

in all its aspects!

[Marrah_G]

25. Seeing the Celtic Cross displayed for Hate makes me sad. nt

[pa28]

27. Up until 2003 this was the Svoboda party's logo.

Nothing to see here right? Move along.

[EmilyAnne]

29. A party had a logo. Ok. nt

[pa28]

30. Any resemblance between the Svboda party and Nazis is purely coincidental.

?w=595&h=334

[EmilyAnne]

33. Of course the wolfsangel is a fascist symbol.

Aside from the fact that Svoboda has become more and more moderate (hence the abandoning of the wolfsangel logo), they do not control Ukraine. They were not the leaders of the opposition.

[Rhythm]

55. And obviously no similarity to Aryan Nations here in the US, right?

All pure coincidence...

[sibelian]

40. I know. It's just that whenever these guys do this stuff

the symbols they choose always look kind of like another one we're all very familiar with.

[Aerows]

32. The Celtic Cross is racist?

Wow. I guess it will just go down in history as another symbol co-opted for hateful purposes, like the ancient symbol for luck, prosperity and wealth. What's that symbol? One you may know as the symbol for Nazi Germany.

We need to strip the negative meaning to these symbols. You can find a swastika in Asian countries around the globe and it has nothing to do with nazism, the same that you can find Celtic crosses around the globe and it has nothing to do with racism.

If anything, at some point in the future, a regime will rise and the dollar sign will become a symbol of hatred, oppression and pain.

[Behind the Aegis]

46. To clairfy...

The Celtic Cross is not racist, nor are most of its uses. Versions of it have been co-opted by white supremacists groups, in much the same way the swastika and even the word "Aryan" have been. To be sure, the Celtic Cross is more associated with pagans and the Irish than white supremacists. The white supremacists have also co-opted Norse and some Celtic mythology. Go to Stormfront or National Vanguard and you will see scores of usernames with references to their gods and goddesses, as well as references to places and events in Norse and Celtic mythos.

[Aerows]

52. I won't go there

and Stormfront and National Vanguard can go fuck themselves for attempting to drag ancient symbols into their hateful blend of shitty supremacist grok.

We are all human beings, and all of us have an ancient lineage of one sort or another. What matters is how we treat each other today. That is what governs the future.

[Retrograde]

34. When did Odin get to be Celtic?

And what do Odin or the Celts have to do with this particular part of the world? I think it may be a use of a cool-looking icon without going in to any research about what it means.

[Starry Messenger]

45. It gets used where the swastika has been made illegal.

Mainly in Eastern Europe. The Celtic meaning of it isn't as important to Neo-nazis as the fact that it looks a bit like the swastika. Although being Nazis, there is a bit of mystical bullshit about Celts being the pure race, blah blah blah.

More here: http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/qt-z_sym.html

If you peruse the comments at YouTube at left leaning videos about Eastern Europe, you will generally see the Celtic cross being sported by the pro-fascist trolls. That's where I first encountered it.

[Aerows]

53. The Swastika isn't evil in Asian culture

It is a symbol of luck, wealth and fortune. It's rather fucked up that it got adopted by Nazis to spread hate, when it means nothing of the sort in Asian countries.

[AnnieBW]

62. And this is Odin's Symbol

[Behind the Aegis]

63. I have only seen that used by neo-Nazis from Germany, Poland, that region.

I have never seen it in homegrown neo-Nazis. Like the Celtic Cross, it is likely more associated in a positive way. It is sad to see such symbols corrupted in such an evil way.

[reformist2]

36. So basically our government will support anybody, if they promise to do what we tell them to.

[jtuck004]

57. Yeah, we make a lot of promises. After Cuba, Afghanistan, others, seems that anyone we

approach might want to consider that we are not the best country to trust.

[sibelian]

41. So, I'm Scottish.

And it seems you are telling me that a bunch of racist pricks want to identify with my nation?

Why? When did Scotland or Ireland become synonymous with racism?

These shitheads would be banned in modern Scotland.

(note: I'm not suggesting you support their views of my nation)

[Aerows]

54. I am Irish/English

I've never known the Celtic Cross to be associated with racism. But then again, for Asian folks, the Swastika wasn't, either. It was luck, fortune and providence.

It seems some folks want to drive a divide at some point.

[former9thward]

44. I have been in St. Petersburg, Russia a couple times in the last several years.

I saw confederate flags at a number of youth oriented bars. I think it is mainly a symbol of rebellion to them.

[geek tragedy]

58. They are also on the state flag of Mississippi. Do you support Russia invading Mississippi? nt

[fascisthunter]

59. Well, there ya Go!

Can't argue that elements of a nazi group is trying to wiggle in.

[kwassa]

60. so, the sighting of the Confederate flag and the Celtic cross is essentially meaningless.

Everyone knows about Svoboda.

The real question is: how much influence do they have? A sign on a wall doesn't tell us that.

[AnnieBW]

61. That's not a Celtic Cross

THIS is a Celtic Cross!