Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 04:45 PM Mar 2014

L.A. E-Cigarette Ban Approved

The L.A. City Council today voted unanimously to place use of e-cigarettes in the same category as cigarettes in city limits. That means puffing on so-called "vapes" or vaporizer pens will be banned on beaches, in parks, in markets, in most offices and in restaurants, even outdoor dining areas.

See also: Vapor Lounges Would be Legal Under L.A. E-Cigarette Ban

The vape industry was against the move, of course, saying the jury's still out on any possible harm caused by vaping. Some claim the water vapor from smoking nicotine is harmless and that the devices are priceless to those actually trying to quit cigarettes.

A pair of Columbia University public health professors wrote this in the New York Times recently.

... If e-cigarettes can reduce, even slightly, the blight of six million tobacco-related deaths a year, trying to force them out of sight is counterproductive.

http://www.laweekly.com/informer/2014/03/04/la-e-cigarette-ban-approved

139 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
L.A. E-Cigarette Ban Approved (Original Post) The Straight Story Mar 2014 OP
What a FANTASTIC way to get people to quit smoking! OilemFirchen Mar 2014 #1
+1000 Tom Ripley Mar 2014 #26
+ a gazillion. nt Mojorabbit Mar 2014 #50
Jesus Christ I'm glad I don't live in Calif. NM_Birder Mar 2014 #2
Good grief! HappyMe Mar 2014 #3
Anti-smoking zealotry run amok. This is stupid and counterproductive. Comrade Grumpy Mar 2014 #4
As someone who lost both parents to lung canceer . . . markpkessinger Mar 2014 #20
I'm rabidly anti-smoking and I sense that Big Tobacco is behind this XemaSab Mar 2014 #87
Dumb idea to ban. bigwillq Mar 2014 #5
GOOD….e-cigarettes have nicotine…that is not quitting the addiction to nicotine. Tikki Mar 2014 #6
not all do Go Vols Mar 2014 #8
No prob with that…but a while back in a survey here most said they do have nicotine in their e-cigs Tikki Mar 2014 #18
As I said upthread . . . markpkessinger Mar 2014 #125
I would like to know how many quit with e-cigarettes…no steps backward…quitting is a step forward. Tikki Mar 2014 #128
Quit what? Smoking? Nicotine? Vaping? Liberal Veteran Mar 2014 #133
Good question. Mariana Mar 2014 #135
Nicotine…. Tikki Mar 2014 #139
so what? nicotine is not what kills smokers. nt arely staircase Mar 2014 #9
but it's not the nicotine in cigarettes that is unhealthy Beaverhausen Mar 2014 #11
Yes, they have nicotine, but they lack the SMOKE that everyone complains about. Comrade Grumpy Mar 2014 #12
Nicotine is addictive… Tikki Mar 2014 #19
Sex can be an addiction too. HappyMe Mar 2014 #22
You do as you please, I never said you shouldn't. Just addictive is addictive. Tikki Mar 2014 #24
Your kid's rights shouldn't infringe on mine. HappyMe Mar 2014 #30
Not smoking in public was necessary OwnedByCats Mar 2014 #129
So is oxygen. Lizzie Poppet Mar 2014 #31
Yes, we clearly need to keep the addicted on the cigs that will kill them jeff47 Mar 2014 #35
And the local, state and federal governments addicted to the "sin" taxes Seeking Serenity Mar 2014 #39
Oh yes! HappyMe Mar 2014 #43
Psst... the Obama budget posits to raise the tobacco tax to fund pre-K. Fawke Em Mar 2014 #54
I mentioned birth control in the context of harm reduction. Comrade Grumpy Mar 2014 #59
Nicotine is found in tea, tomato's, potato's, cauliflower, Autumn Mar 2014 #63
I don't give a damn ProudToBeBlueInRhody Mar 2014 #78
So's caffeinne and sugar, let's ban them next TransitJohn Mar 2014 #94
So? What harm does someone elses nicotine addiction do to others? Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #13
Who are you to tell people to quit nicotine? cthulu2016 Mar 2014 #16
Who the hell are you to tell HappyMe Mar 2014 #21
But why is that your concern if someone wishes to take in nicotine? penultimate Mar 2014 #33
again you are falsely equating "taking in nicotine" and eating junk food alp227 Mar 2014 #127
Let's ban caffeinne next TransitJohn Mar 2014 #92
Have some education...Some doctors claim nicotine addiction more powerful than heroin addiction justiceischeap Mar 2014 #110
Yikes OwnedByCats Mar 2014 #130
He really did quit smoking. Mariana Mar 2014 #134
It is good because he smoked cigarettes for 20 years OwnedByCats Mar 2014 #136
+1 G_j Mar 2014 #138
The thing about stupid assholes is that they are stupid assholes cthulu2016 Mar 2014 #7
Wow, what a confusing post. n-t Logical Mar 2014 #67
Donchya just love Puritans doing God's work for us? Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #10
Similar to missionaries and the Indians, they want to 'tame the savages' who are not like them The Straight Story Mar 2014 #17
Nicotine is addictive…Say, I am addicted so I will continue to be addicted. Don't say you are Tikki Mar 2014 #23
That's on that generation and their parents. HappyMe Mar 2014 #28
I don't smoke pot The Straight Story Mar 2014 #34
You can take my vape pen out of my cold dead hands superpatriotman Mar 2014 #14
Way to punish people for quitting smoking, LA meow2u3 Mar 2014 #116
Ree-fucking-dick-ulos. zappaman Mar 2014 #15
Los Angeles is run by morons. Throd Mar 2014 #25
I'd have more sympathy for the manufacturers if they weren't marketing to teens pnwmom Mar 2014 #27
I like the candy flavors Politicalboi Mar 2014 #40
"Tough shit about kids." pnwmom Mar 2014 #42
Yeah, kind of. HappyMe Mar 2014 #45
My kids aren't doing this stuff. But any of us might have to breathe other people's exhaust pnwmom Mar 2014 #49
You're breathing peoples exhaust already. N/T beevul Mar 2014 #106
Yeah OwnedByCats Mar 2014 #131
Oh, come now. Wouldn't you rather smell garlic and onion breath than vile vanilla or caramel? Liberal Veteran Mar 2014 #132
Call me weird ... OwnedByCats Mar 2014 #137
Because adults hate candy flavors. jeff47 Mar 2014 #53
As an adult, you are only allowed the flavors of tree stumps and swamp gas. Liberal Veteran Mar 2014 #57
I thought "adult flavors" sounded a lot more, uh, interesting jberryhill Mar 2014 #103
No no no. beevul Mar 2014 #107
She has a thing about "adult flavors" jberryhill Mar 2014 #102
i'll admit it, i laughed until "sudden wetness." NuttyFluffers Mar 2014 #111
Good thing I didn't say "semen" jberryhill Mar 2014 #126
Strange this obsession over simulated flavored tobacco, fruity tobaccos Dragonfli Mar 2014 #124
What exactly is your problem with adults having candy flavored e-cig liquid? Liberal Veteran Mar 2014 #62
We both went for turnip/rutabaga jberryhill Mar 2014 #104
you realize that turnips and rutabagas are 2 different vegetables, right? KittyWampus Mar 2014 #112
When I lure children from playgrounds jberryhill Mar 2014 #115
We've gone over this before. beevul Mar 2014 #105
Just in case anyone thought CA politicians couldn't get any more moronic. Lizzie Poppet Mar 2014 #29
good for LA. this is a no brainer. bowens43 Mar 2014 #32
I'm curious why you think this is a good idea. penultimate Mar 2014 #36
Because the vapors have been shown to contain substances such as formaldehyde pnwmom Mar 2014 #44
I don't drive a car. HappyMe Mar 2014 #46
We have regulations on car exhaust. We should also regulate people's exhaust. nt pnwmom Mar 2014 #47
Literally nothing is proven to be safe. jeff47 Mar 2014 #55
Do you have a link for that? Beaverhausen Mar 2014 #82
Yes, there definitely is a lack of thought involved in this ban. (nt) jeff47 Mar 2014 #37
Next up -- cars and alcohol. HappyMe Mar 2014 #38
Dumb comparison. n-t Logical Mar 2014 #66
It IS a no brainier. As in the asshats who came up with it weren't using theirs. Matariki Mar 2014 #100
lame. nt Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #41
I'm curious how they think it can be enforced. Demit Mar 2014 #48
Just like they inforce the cigarette ban taught_me_patience Mar 2014 #71
Did you read what I said? Demit Mar 2014 #75
I actually own a restaurant taught_me_patience Mar 2014 #117
And if vapers takes a puff while they are in the bathroom, you will never know. Demit Mar 2014 #118
I told you we are already enforcing a ban on indoor e-cigs taught_me_patience Mar 2014 #119
Silly rules ask to be broken. Demit Mar 2014 #120
"if caught" jberryhill Mar 2014 #122
But on what authority? Where's the environmental harm? TransitJohn Mar 2014 #95
I agree with you on the fact that people can still use the vape even inside yeoman6987 Mar 2014 #109
Post removed Post removed Mar 2014 #51
I would bet most people defending ecigs are not smokers. Travis_0004 Mar 2014 #60
Another hateful post from msongs. You can be a better person than this. Comrade Grumpy Mar 2014 #61
no, trust me, they can't.... nt dionysus Mar 2014 #84
To time-out they go. Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #90
wow. i stopped bothering to alert on their hateful posts because it was like, almost all of them... dionysus Mar 2014 #91
It took less than 5 minutes to return a 5-1 hide. Which was surprising. Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #96
The poisons in a cigarette are from the burning tar & chemicals in the smoke. Demit Mar 2014 #77
Why are you always so nasty in these discussions? Like seriously nasty. Gravitycollapse Mar 2014 #88
This is idiotic. Nannyism run amuck. Waiting For Everyman Mar 2014 #52
oh please it will be expanded in the future taught_me_patience Mar 2014 #64
You have indoor beaches and parks? OilemFirchen Mar 2014 #69
Next up, the smoking ban will extend to multi-family units. taught_me_patience Mar 2014 #70
In answer to my question... OilemFirchen Mar 2014 #72
There is no way someone in the next apartment could tell a person was vaping. Demit Mar 2014 #79
Stink and bother don't equal a public health issue TransitJohn Mar 2014 #97
Fucking stupid. NT linuxman Mar 2014 #56
I personally don't want to be stuck in a cubical next to someone "vaping" for 8 hours a day. Shoulders of Giants Mar 2014 #58
This is great. They can just go outside to vape like the smokers taught_me_patience Mar 2014 #65
My Uncle "smoked" a tube when he quit smoking HockeyMom Mar 2014 #76
at least he quit instead of promoting the behavior as harmless.... dionysus Mar 2014 #86
I take it you hold your breath at work all day? Comrade Grumpy Mar 2014 #80
This message was self-deleted by its author Th1onein Mar 2014 #68
I never thought I'd see the day when L.A. had more tight-ass rules than Utah LadyHawkAZ Mar 2014 #73
I'm all for banning smoking tobacco in public, but I won't support this. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #74
The Bloombergs of the World rejoice SirRevolutionary Mar 2014 #81
you e-cig ban supporter! dionysus Mar 2014 #83
Unnecessary and stupid. DireStrike Mar 2014 #85
Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue. kentauros Mar 2014 #89
L.A....Too bad they didn't ban "vapid" instead of "vaping". nt Bonobo Mar 2014 #93
E-cigarettes are not cigarettes. This is idiotic. Bonobo Mar 2014 #98
Oh FFS Matariki Mar 2014 #99
This message was self-deleted by its author ZombieHorde Mar 2014 #101
Congratulations to the quit or die crowd... beevul Mar 2014 #108
WTH is wrong with these people? workinclasszero Mar 2014 #113
Just plain ridiculous. rudolph the red Mar 2014 #114
Stuff like this makes it hard to defend democrats sometimes. Kurska Mar 2014 #121
Huzzah for puritanism! JoeyT Mar 2014 #123
 

NM_Birder

(1,591 posts)
2. Jesus Christ I'm glad I don't live in Calif.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 04:54 PM
Mar 2014

Not that I am recommending New Mexico, but I'll take it over California.

markpkessinger

(8,401 posts)
20. As someone who lost both parents to lung canceer . . .
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 05:39 PM
Mar 2014

. . . that was likely brought on by decades of smoking, I am certainly no fan of the habit. But I agree with you that this is potentially a very counterproductive move.

Tikki

(14,559 posts)
6. GOOD….e-cigarettes have nicotine…that is not quitting the addiction to nicotine.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 05:23 PM
Mar 2014

Nicotine leaves the body in 24~48 hours. Why replace it with more?


Tikki

Go Vols

(5,902 posts)
8. not all do
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 05:28 PM
Mar 2014

I have a friend that's been smoking e cigs for a few years and the last 2 she smokes 0% nicotine blends.

Tikki

(14,559 posts)
18. No prob with that…but a while back in a survey here most said they do have nicotine in their e-cigs
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 05:35 PM
Mar 2014

They said it was to help them quit….I wonder how many have quit…would make a real argument for using e-cigarettes to quit.


Tikki

markpkessinger

(8,401 posts)
125. As I said upthread . . .
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 05:31 PM
Mar 2014

. . . having lost two parents to lung cancer (12 days apart no less) that was likely brought on by decades of smoking, I am no fan of the habit. But I personally know several folks for whom e-cigarettes helped them to kick their tobacco habit entirely, so perhaps you might want to take a step or two back from your puritanical anti-nicotine moralism, eh?

Tikki

(14,559 posts)
128. I would like to know how many quit with e-cigarettes…no steps backward…quitting is a step forward.
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 05:59 PM
Mar 2014

Quitting in large numbers would rebrand the e-cigarette as just that a tool for quitting…take a
lot of the coolness away from teens then.


Tikki

Liberal Veteran

(22,239 posts)
133. Quit what? Smoking? Nicotine? Vaping?
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:18 PM
Mar 2014

I can speak from experience that I haven't smoked in years, but I have vaped. I tried a cigarette one time after a couple of months of vaping and it tasted like Satan's farts after eating at Taco Bell.

I wondered what the hell could have possessed me to ever smoke.

Of course, that's just anecdotal, but I imagine my palate isn't all that different from most.

Mariana

(14,860 posts)
135. Good question.
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:23 PM
Mar 2014

Someone who uses e-cigs exclusively has quit smoking. Period. Why do some people want to pretend that isn't true?

Congratulations, by the way. Good job.

Beaverhausen

(24,470 posts)
11. but it's not the nicotine in cigarettes that is unhealthy
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 05:29 PM
Mar 2014

it's all the chemicals and the smoke. My husband has been vaping for over 2 years and his health has improved greatly. He was able to get off his high blood pressure meds.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
12. Yes, they have nicotine, but they lack the SMOKE that everyone complains about.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 05:29 PM
Mar 2014

E-cigs are a harm reduction measure. It's better for you to ingest nicotine through a vapor than a carcinogenic cloud of smoke.

I don't suppose you support providing birth control to students, because then they'll have sex.

Tikki

(14,559 posts)
19. Nicotine is addictive…
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 05:37 PM
Mar 2014

We are talking about an addictive substance.

You mention birth control, why?


Tikki

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
22. Sex can be an addiction too.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 05:41 PM
Mar 2014

So can coffee, so can telling other people how to live their lives.

Tikki

(14,559 posts)
24. You do as you please, I never said you shouldn't. Just addictive is addictive.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 05:45 PM
Mar 2014

Just a truth I was pointing out and why the L.A. City Council may have made the decision they made.

One I approve of every time a see a young ones face for the future.

Tikki

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
30. Your kid's rights shouldn't infringe on mine.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 05:52 PM
Mar 2014

Your kid is your responsibility. Not mine. Your kid gets a fake ID to get some smokes or a vape, that's not my damn problem.

OwnedByCats

(805 posts)
129. Not smoking in public was necessary
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 07:10 PM
Mar 2014

because other people were having to breathe in those carcinogens that could adversely effect their own health, not because nicotine is addictive to the smoker themselves. This was for the safety of the non smoking public. If people are vaping instead, they aren't risking giving others cancer from 2nd hand smoke. Should we ban drinking coffee in public because caffeine is addictive? How about selling alcohol in restaurants and bars since alcohol can be addictive? Smoking bans had nothing to do with nicotine and all to do with 2nd hand carcinogens.

 

Lizzie Poppet

(10,164 posts)
31. So is oxygen.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 05:55 PM
Mar 2014

Who cares if someone enjoys an addictive substance if there's no significant health problems associated with it and no second-hand harm done to others? It's none of your business.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
35. Yes, we clearly need to keep the addicted on the cigs that will kill them
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 05:59 PM
Mar 2014

After all, these terrible people started using an addictive substance. The penalty should be death. Long, slow and painful death.

That way as they spend their last years lingering in agony, they can know we do not approve of their choices.

Seeking Serenity

(2,840 posts)
39. And the local, state and federal governments addicted to the "sin" taxes
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 06:08 PM
Mar 2014

The additional excise tax on tobacco, which is not in place on e-cigs.

"Why, if smokers started switching to e-cigs, which are not as dangerous to their health, from tobacco, we'll lose a lot of tobacco tax revenue! Better ban the e-cigs!"

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
43. Oh yes!
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 06:18 PM
Mar 2014

The more people quit smoking, the less tax money comes in.

I have often wondered who is going to pick up the tax slack from all the people that have quit smoking. I know a lot of people that have used the ecigs to quit. They puff on the thing only very occasionally and haven't bought any cigarettes either. Maybe in this case, the lost revenue should be spread out to all of LA.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
54. Psst... the Obama budget posits to raise the tobacco tax to fund pre-K.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 06:41 PM
Mar 2014

I think the addiction to the sin tax by government is EXACTLY the problem.

For example, if pre-K is so good, and I believe it is, why should only smokers fund it? Shouldn't everyone?

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
59. I mentioned birth control in the context of harm reduction.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 06:57 PM
Mar 2014

Which is how I view e-cigs. Yes, you are still addicted to nicotine, but without all the illness-inducing tars and chemicals in smoke.

The argument goes like this:

We would rather you not be addicted to nicotine/have teenage sex.

But if you are going to be addicted to nicotine/have teenage sex, we want you to do it in the least harmful manner.

Therefore we oppose bans on e-cigs/support providing birth control to teenagers.

ProudToBeBlueInRhody

(16,399 posts)
78. I don't give a damn
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 10:07 PM
Mar 2014

If smokers could smoke real cigs and never harm anyone else, none of it would matter to me.

It's not the nicotine, it's the smoke getting in other people's lungs who didn't ask for it.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
16. Who are you to tell people to quit nicotine?
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 05:32 PM
Mar 2014

What about caffeine?

Do you perceive ANY limit to your powers over others?

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
21. Who the hell are you to tell
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 05:39 PM
Mar 2014

other people how and when they quit smoking?

Maybe rehab and AA should be eliminated too.

penultimate

(1,110 posts)
33. But why is that your concern if someone wishes to take in nicotine?
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 05:57 PM
Mar 2014

Eating certain foods are bad for you too. Should we go after those? Should we go after products that have caffeine due to their addictive nature? I get the bans on real smoking and support them in most cases because they affect others, but I fail to see how e-cigs fall into that category.

alp227

(32,046 posts)
127. again you are falsely equating "taking in nicotine" and eating junk food
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 05:45 PM
Mar 2014

taking in nicotine often involves forcing others to breathe your filth. Most junk food eaters aren't force feeding others.

justiceischeap

(14,040 posts)
110. Have some education...Some doctors claim nicotine addiction more powerful than heroin addiction
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 09:29 AM
Mar 2014
"What smokers don't realise is that nicotine addiction is as powerful, or even more powerful, than heroin addiction," he said. " The (brain's) receptors for smoking are as strongly attached to nicotine as the heroine receptor is to opiates. That can come as a shock to a lot of people. Quitting is therefore a serious challenge for most." said Dr Seidler.

http://www.news-medical.net/news/20100422/Stopping-smoking-may-be-harder-than-quitting-heroin.aspx


Interdisciplinary research in pharmacology, psychology, physiology and neurobiology is just beginning to shed light on the incredible hold that tobacco has on people. Scientists have found, for instance, that nicotine is as addictive as heroin, cocaine or amphetamines, and for most people more addictive than alcohol. Its hooks go deep, involving complex physiological and psychological mechanisms that drive and maintain smoking behavior and that even produce some ''good'' effects, such as improved performance on intellectual, computational and stressful tasks.

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/03/29/magazine/nicotine-harder-to-kickthan-heroin.html


Scientists aren't completely sure what happens to the nicotine receptors in the brain if no more nicotine is received.

"In theory, what you'd expect to happen is the receptors would just die off," Piper said. But a 2002 study in the Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology showed after quitting smoking cold-turkey, feelings of depression and tension remained, even 31 days after the last puff of smoke was taken.

http://www.livescience.com/35062-tobacco-addiction-why-hard-quit-smoking.html


It’s hard to tackle the physical addiction to nicotine. Cigarettes contain nicotine, a highly addictive substance found naturally in tobacco. It travels quickly to the brain when it is inhaled and can cause a feeling of temporary relaxation and/or stress relief. Nicotine can also elevate your mood and your heart rate. But this feeling is only temporary. After your body rids itself of the drug, you start to crave another cigarette. The surgeon general’s study on nicotine concluded that “behavioral characteristics that determine tobacco addiction are similar to those that determine addiction to drugs such as heroin and cocaine.”

http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/GettingHealthy/QuitSmoking/YourNon-SmokingLife/Why-is-it-so-hard-to-quit_UCM_324053_Article.jsp


If you've never quit smoking or attempted to quit smoking, you'll never know how hard it is for most smokers to quit. I've quit once, about 15 years ago and it took me months to get to the point where I wasn't constantly craving a cigarette. So, if something like e-cigs can help me quit smoking and leave me without the tar from smoking real cigarettes (which is what's so bad for your lungs), that's a path I'm willing to go down.

OwnedByCats

(805 posts)
130. Yikes
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 07:42 PM
Mar 2014

Well for me quitting cigs was like a picnic in teddy bear park compared to the hell that was opiate withdrawals, but that's just me. I do agree though, if one can find a safer delivery system for the one thing that keeps them smoking the system that delivers thousands of carcinogens, I'm all for it! My husband quit smoking using an e-cig. Well ok, for people like Tikki - he quit using the harmful delivery system and uses the safer one.

Mariana

(14,860 posts)
134. He really did quit smoking.
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:19 PM
Mar 2014

He deserves to be congratulated. It's really weird how some people are so hung up on the relatively harmless nicotine. They should be jumping up and down with happiness that so many people have stopped smoking with these things. Instead, they want to give people who use them a hard time.

OwnedByCats

(805 posts)
136. It is good because he smoked cigarettes for 20 years
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:33 PM
Mar 2014

He never thought he'd be able to quit. He gave up the element of the habit that was the dangerous part, it was never the nicotine that I worried about, it was the burning of tobacco causing him to take in all these carcinogens. I don't understand the problem here either. When it was smoking, they didn't want others breathing in the harmful smoke and I get that. Banning e-cigs, that just seems like a power and control thing to me. Then you have the sanctimonious attitudes of certain people who have to be complete killjoys about the whole thing. Just be glad people are doing themselves less harm, but then they wouldn't be able to lecture anymore, would they?

 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
10. Donchya just love Puritans doing God's work for us?
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 05:29 PM
Mar 2014
There is only one honest impulse at the bottom of Puritanism, and that is the impulse to punish the man with a superior capacity for happiness. H.L. Mencken

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
17. Similar to missionaries and the Indians, they want to 'tame the savages' who are not like them
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 05:32 PM
Mar 2014

And force them to follow their one true belief.

Those who are not like me must be forced to be like be because of freedom. Or something stupid like that.

Tikki

(14,559 posts)
23. Nicotine is addictive…Say, I am addicted so I will continue to be addicted. Don't say you are
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 05:42 PM
Mar 2014

quitting being addicted by ingesting something addicting.…
Sometimes doctors will recommend patients stop their caffeine intake. Why?

I have no idea how sex and religion got into this discussion.

Tikki

PS it is your right to be addicted…just don't make it easier for another generation to become addicted to nicotine.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
28. That's on that generation and their parents.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 05:50 PM
Mar 2014

Cigarettes and the vape things are kept behind the counter. You have to show an ID to get both. Parents should dig through the little darling's crap to make sure that they don't have fake IDs.

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
34. I don't smoke pot
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 05:57 PM
Mar 2014

But I believe people have that right to. I don't own a gun and I want people to be allowed to do so.

The base arguments put forth are the same ones people use in religion - do what I think is best for you, remove your choice, because I don't like what you like.

It is about controlling others and their choices. I think soda is bad for people and can be addictive. Ban it. Fast food, the same. Alcohol - yeah a lot of people can be addicted to that. Ban it.

Pro-choice isn't just for one thing imho, it is an ideal and a belief in freedom over your own body and choices.

I don't see it as progressive to want to remove freedoms and choices.

meow2u3

(24,767 posts)
116. Way to punish people for quitting smoking, LA
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 10:37 AM
Mar 2014

If vaping is outlawed, only outlaws will vape. You'll have to pry my box mod out of my cold, dead hands.

 

Politicalboi

(15,189 posts)
40. I like the candy flavors
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 06:15 PM
Mar 2014

Why must we adults have to cater to "the children". I'm sick and tired of it. Tired of watching TV being bleeped for kids who parents and kids from school teach them the bad words. I love the Vanilla vapor stick. Tough shit about kids.

pnwmom

(108,990 posts)
42. "Tough shit about kids."
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 06:17 PM
Mar 2014

Yeah, we don't care if more kids get addicted to nicotine, do we?

Just as long as the adult addicts can get their fix.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
45. Yeah, kind of.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 06:22 PM
Mar 2014

You need an ID to buy smokes and vape stuff because it's all kept behind the counter. It's not my problem if your kid has a fake ID. It's past time for the kid's parent's to take some responsibility here.

It's your kid, you figure it out. I did.

pnwmom

(108,990 posts)
49. My kids aren't doing this stuff. But any of us might have to breathe other people's exhaust
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 06:28 PM
Mar 2014

if the vapers get their way.

OwnedByCats

(805 posts)
137. Call me weird ...
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 08:35 PM
Mar 2014

but no lol. Oh how about dill pickle flavored e-juice? I love that smell but I bet others would not lol!

Liberal Veteran

(22,239 posts)
57. As an adult, you are only allowed the flavors of tree stumps and swamp gas.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 06:52 PM
Mar 2014

And if you are very nice, you can have "menthol" (whatever the hell that may be).

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
103. I thought "adult flavors" sounded a lot more, uh, interesting
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 01:31 AM
Mar 2014

I can't say the phrase exactly brought "tree stumps" to mind but, well, maybe sometimes.
 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
107. No no no.
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 04:17 AM
Mar 2014

"And if you are very nice, you can have "menthol" (whatever the hell that may be)."

That was a typo, in their rules release.

They meant methanlol.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
102. She has a thing about "adult flavors"
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 01:30 AM
Mar 2014

She went on a rant about flavors before. It was epic.

I now only vape the following flavors, out of concern for children:

1. Fried Liver and Onion

2. Rutabaga Turnip

3. Gorgonzola

4. Prune

NuttyFluffers

(6,811 posts)
111. i'll admit it, i laughed until "sudden wetness."
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 09:56 AM
Mar 2014

and since i'm such an adult i only use adult appropriate absorption, like scouring pad, or crown of thorns.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
124. Strange this obsession over simulated flavored tobacco, fruity tobaccos
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 04:53 PM
Mar 2014

have been with us for centuries and in most cultures have been considered a privilege of adults. I don't understand therefore the need to label such "flavors" as "children's flavors".

My middle eastern friends smoke such flavored tobaccos in their hukkā and it is not new but rather ancient and intended for adults.

I see the vape flavors merely as an extension of the hukkā tradition but in a far healthier form.


Hell, my grandfather smoked cherry tobacco in his pipe and he was no child.

Whomever is spreading this "children's flavor" meme is apparently an idiot that knows nothing about tobacco use and it's traditional flavorings throughout the centuries. Or is perhaps simply what my sister used to call a "shit starter".

Such an idiot should be forced to eat only pies flavored for adults

1. Fried Liver and Onion Pie

2. Rutabaga Turnip Pie

3. Gorgonzola Pie

4. Prune Pie


As cherry, apple pie and the like appear to be an attempt to lure children to obesity and diabetes with their non adult flavorings.

Lord knows adults only like bitter flavors and abstain from eating fruit and chocolate which only children enjoy.

Liberal Veteran

(22,239 posts)
62. What exactly is your problem with adults having candy flavored e-cig liquid?
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 07:02 PM
Mar 2014

If adults want to vape caramel/chocolate coffee or vanilla raspberry, why do automatically assume that means they are marketing to kids?

This isn't the first time you have made this claim, but your only support for for this is that they have flavors that YOU associate with children.

It isn't logical.

Are you suggesting that consenting adults who wish to vape may only use pnwmom approved flavors of tobacco and menthol and maybe turnip/rutabaga, broccoli and cabbage soup, grass clippings flavored juices?

Have you considered that maybe the adult palate might enjoy variety and that is the reason they have different flavors rather than jumping to the conclusion that it must be marketing to children?

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
112. you realize that turnips and rutabagas are 2 different vegetables, right?
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 10:07 AM
Mar 2014

The Monty Pythonesque nature of this subthread demands I try and stoke some more outrage!

And think of all the "candy" flavored coffee!

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
115. When I lure children from playgrounds
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 10:25 AM
Mar 2014

I find that rhubarb is surprisingly effective.

I show up and give them some free rhubarb, and within days they come looking for me.

Then, bam, I hit 'em with the ecigs.

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
105. We've gone over this before.
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 04:13 AM
Mar 2014

"I'd have more sympathy for the manufacturers if they weren't marketing to teens with their candy flavors."

We've gone over this before. You were wrong then, and you're wrong now. You've been informed that after a time, most people who quit smoking and vape instead, don't want to taste tobacco...which leaves them...non tobacco flavors...which include...*gasp*...sweet flavors. The horror!!

You've also been shown:



and



and never been able to reconcile your claim with those things.

Clearly marketed to teens, right?


One can only wonder, those being the facts, why you continue to say what you're saying here.








penultimate

(1,110 posts)
36. I'm curious why you think this is a good idea.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 06:01 PM
Mar 2014

As in, why do you believe they should be banned? Do you believe they cause harm via second-hand vapor? Do you think that they are unhealthy for individuals and that individuals shouldn't be able to do unhealthy things?

pnwmom

(108,990 posts)
44. Because the vapors have been shown to contain substances such as formaldehyde
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 06:18 PM
Mar 2014

and haven't been proven to be safe -- so people who don't want to be exposed to other people's exhaust shouldn't have to be.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
46. I don't drive a car.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 06:24 PM
Mar 2014

Why should I be subjected to your car's exhaust and your kid's school bus exhaust.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
55. Literally nothing is proven to be safe.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 06:45 PM
Mar 2014

Water. 100% pure, clean, not-even-chlorinated water.

Drinking too much at once will kill you. It screws up the electrolyte balance that makes the nervous system work.

The metric should not be "proven to be safe". Because nothing is safe. The metric should be "proven to be dangerous".

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
38. Next up -- cars and alcohol.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 06:06 PM
Mar 2014

Cars have been the worst polluter of the air in LA. Alcohol is also addictive. Close the bars and wineries.

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
48. I'm curious how they think it can be enforced.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 06:27 PM
Mar 2014

You can pull it out, puff on it, then put it back in your pocket or purse. The vapor would dissipate by the time someone got to you, or 'told' on you. It's not like a cigarette that you commit to for 5 or 7 minutes, with it burning the whole time. And there's no left-behind odor. This ban is unenforceable. Vapers need not worry.

 

taught_me_patience

(5,477 posts)
71. Just like they inforce the cigarette ban
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 07:52 PM
Mar 2014

fine the business owners $500/offense. A fine or two and business owners become strict enforcers.

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
75. Did you read what I said?
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 09:33 PM
Mar 2014

The vapor dissipates immediately, so there's no lingering smoke (because it's not smoke in the first place). There is no smell. There is no burning stick that a person is holding. You can take a puff then put the device right back in your pocket.

So there's no evidence of anything. The only scenario I can envision is some puritan running to someone & saying, "That person was vaping! I saw it, I swear!!!" But I can't picture what comes next. Walk me through it, if you can. What exactly would "they" (do you mean a policeman?) or the business owner, do next?

 

taught_me_patience

(5,477 posts)
117. I actually own a restaurant
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 10:58 AM
Mar 2014

and have had numerous complaints from customers about vape "smoke". We've now officially banned vaping in the shop and will ask vapers to go outside. If there is a fine associated with smoking or vaping, then you bet businesses will force them to go outside.

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
118. And if vapers takes a puff while they are in the bathroom, you will never know.
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 11:57 AM
Mar 2014

There is no smell, there is no smoke. There is nothing that lingers. I am betting your customer complaints are knee jerk reactions from people who refuse to be educated, and will (b/c they want to) continue associating vaping with smoking. So much more satisfying to be able to act out their need to be self-righteous.

But you didn't address my question. What's the scenario that results in a city official coming around & slapping you with a fine? One customer complaint to whoever is the enforcement agency? Five? Ten? The off-chance that the official himself is dining at your restaurant and sees a customer take a puff?

This ban is unenforceable. By the city or by you.

 

taught_me_patience

(5,477 posts)
119. I told you we are already enforcing a ban on indoor e-cigs
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 12:41 PM
Mar 2014

thankfully, 99% of customers have courtesy and just go vape outside. If you need to go into a bathroom so you can satisfy some sick fetish you have of flaunting rules, then so be it.

To answer your question, the smoking ban is designed to be self enforced. The business owner or the smoker can be fined $500 if caught by police or fire department officials.

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
120. Silly rules ask to be broken.
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 02:05 PM
Mar 2014

And you'll never know if your customers are breaking them. The ban is unenforceable. That's what makes it a silly rule.

You still haven't given me a sample scenario of what would have to happen to get this fine assessed. A policeman walking by the window of your restaurant & glancing in? You calling the fire department to tattle on a customer? And why would you call the fire dept anyway, there's no smoke involved. No smoker, either.

You haven't given me an example of a real world sequence of events that would lead to a fine because you can't. So to save face, you resort to saying I have a "sick fetish." Well, nyah nyah to you too. When I was a smoker I would go outside of a restaurant to smoke. Now that I'm a vaper, I can grab a puff whenever I want. This ban can't stop that. And unless you decide to put cameras in your bathroom stalls, neither can you.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
122. "if caught"
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 03:49 PM
Mar 2014

I believe the question asked, and for which you probably have a good answer if you can calm down a bit, is - how do you get caught?

Someone in the restaurant sees someone vaping, calls police, and then the police come and hand you a ticket?

Just as a point of practicality, how does this work?

TransitJohn

(6,932 posts)
95. But on what authority? Where's the environmental harm?
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 11:59 PM
Mar 2014

That's the question. These e-cig bans are purely to punish people enjoying nicotine, and have nothing to do with public health.

 

yeoman6987

(14,449 posts)
109. I agree with you on the fact that people can still use the vape even inside
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 07:13 AM
Mar 2014

There is no way you are going to be able to catch people using it inside like you can a cigarette. This is about taxes only. The county is mad that they are losing money from all the people not buying cigarettes.

Response to The Straight Story (Original post)

 

Travis_0004

(5,417 posts)
60. I would bet most people defending ecigs are not smokers.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 06:57 PM
Mar 2014

Me included. I don't smoke. I don't use E cigs, but I'm failing to see a problem with somebody on a beach smoking an ecig. When I go to the beach, there is plenty of space and I'm not forced to breath in anybody's vapors.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
96. It took less than 5 minutes to return a 5-1 hide. Which was surprising.
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 12:00 AM
Mar 2014

It seems every post about smoking is an opportunity for that poster to ridicule and mock people dealing with serious, life changing addiction. It's been disgusting to witness and I'm happy others have taken notice.

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
77. The poisons in a cigarette are from the burning tar & chemicals in the smoke.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 09:55 PM
Mar 2014

Nothing gets combusted in e-cigarettes. It's going to take awhile, but eventually people who take their pleasure in sneering at others, like you, will come to learn the facts about vaping, and will have to satisfy their need in some other way.

Waiting For Everyman

(9,385 posts)
52. This is idiotic. Nannyism run amuck.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 06:37 PM
Mar 2014

It sure isn't the open minded and cutting edge LA I lived in once upon a time. Very sad, that it's changed this much.

They'll be repealing this before too long. Because it's just wrong. They should know better in the first place though.

OilemFirchen

(7,143 posts)
69. You have indoor beaches and parks?
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 07:42 PM
Mar 2014

When you were learning patience, did that not include reading something before commenting on it?

 

taught_me_patience

(5,477 posts)
70. Next up, the smoking ban will extend to multi-family units.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 07:48 PM
Mar 2014

and the vaping ban will extend to them too. Smoking should be banned in all crowded areas... just because you are outside, to smokers think their smoke doesn't stink and bother the person standing three feet away?

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
79. There is no way someone in the next apartment could tell a person was vaping.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 10:07 PM
Mar 2014

There is no smell. There is no smoke. Vaping is not smoking. I can take a puff standing three feet away from you and you would never know. This ban is meaningless.

58. I personally don't want to be stuck in a cubical next to someone "vaping" for 8 hours a day.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 06:55 PM
Mar 2014

I know it doesn't have the smoke, but it still puts nicotine and chemicals in the air. Breathing that in for 40 hours a week at work can't be good for anyone. Keep in mind in this terrible economy saying "get another job" doesn't cut it. I support this law.

 

taught_me_patience

(5,477 posts)
65. This is great. They can just go outside to vape like the smokers
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 07:36 PM
Mar 2014

people in a confined indoor space should have to be subjected to others vapor.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
76. My Uncle "smoked" a tube when he quit smoking
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 09:40 PM
Mar 2014

It looked like a cigarette though. He sucked in air and exhaled just his breath Would that bother you too because he LOOKED like he was smoking? I suppose since he ate a lot of garlicy foods, just the sight and SMELL of his breath would be enough of a health hazzard to you?

Response to The Straight Story (Original post)

LadyHawkAZ

(6,199 posts)
73. I never thought I'd see the day when L.A. had more tight-ass rules than Utah
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 07:55 PM
Mar 2014

Outdoor bans?? Seriously??

Stupid.

 

Vashta Nerada

(3,922 posts)
74. I'm all for banning smoking tobacco in public, but I won't support this.
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 07:58 PM
Mar 2014

E-cigs are a helluva lot better than the alternative.

SirRevolutionary

(579 posts)
81. The Bloombergs of the World rejoice
Tue Mar 4, 2014, 10:12 PM
Mar 2014

Nicotine is not what kills people who smoke. For the people who are scared of the small possibility of accidentally walking by a tiny wisp of vapor with nicotine in it on a crowded, polluted LA beach or park, I hope you don't eat potatoes, tomatoes, eggplants or other nightshade family veggies or you'll have yourself some nicotine unwittingly.

What about those of us who vape 0% nicotine? What's the argument then? That guy looks like he's smoking and enjoying it, but he's really puffing on water vapor, lets ban ecigs. Completely brilliant, not.

What we need is more Puritans banning the things they don't like, so we can focus more on the chemcial-laden products they approve of so we can assimilate better into society.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
98. E-cigarettes are not cigarettes. This is idiotic.
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 12:01 AM
Mar 2014

To ban them in the same way as cigarettes is to spectacularly fail to recognize that they have very, very little in common with cigarettes.

It is the smoke produced that makes 2nd hand smoke an issue.

These produce no smoke.

All this does is make it clear that nazi-like puritans are that way irrespective of logic. It is a moral issue. It is a control issue. It is an ego issue.

Fuck anyone that says e-cigs should be restricted in the same way as actual cigarettes. Why? Because they just don't give a fuck about anyone but themselves apparently.

Matariki

(18,775 posts)
99. Oh FFS
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 12:28 AM
Mar 2014

This is puritanical. And I hate cigarettes. Smoking bans are supposed to be about preventing second-hand smoke affecting others. There's no real excuse for this.

Response to The Straight Story (Original post)

 

beevul

(12,194 posts)
108. Congratulations to the quit or die crowd...
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 04:27 AM
Mar 2014

Congratulations to the quit or die crowd...for making quitting more difficult.

 

workinclasszero

(28,270 posts)
113. WTH is wrong with these people?
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 10:07 AM
Mar 2014

Do they enjoy the thought of 400000 or so people dying from coffin nails every year? I know many smokers trying to save their lives with these things and its mind boggling that anyone could be against it!

The vapor they put out is harmless and smells good unlike filthy stinking second hand cigarette smoke which causes cancer and heart attacks.

So yeah lets ban them and ostracize the people trying to kick this deadly habit! DUHHHH! Freakin idiots!

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
121. Stuff like this makes it hard to defend democrats sometimes.
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 02:14 PM
Mar 2014

I spend so much time trying disprove the nanny stateist stereotype, yet we go and do something like this.

I feel like both parties have a strong puritan wing.

JoeyT

(6,785 posts)
123. Huzzah for puritanism!
Wed Mar 5, 2014, 04:15 PM
Mar 2014

Nanny statism at its finest: I object to smoking so much that even the appearance of smoking offends my sensibilities.* Now stop calling my moral crusade a moral crusade.

*Yes, I know some people think the nicotine in the vapor is going to totally make their legs fall off, but we can more or less ignore them the same way we ignore people that think cameras and mirrors can steal their souls. It's irrational to the point of absurdity.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»L.A. E-Cigarette Ban Appr...