White Privilege is real, even accounting for wealth, status, power or popularity

[CreekDog]

You think it's not? Really?

can you think of a recent president who was questioned about his citizenship and if he was or was not a Muslim?

do you think the color of his skin and his ethnic background had nothing to do with that?

[Boom Sound 416]

1. So,

Mixed race man becomes president

Has Muslim sounding name (at least to ordinary Americans)

People rather nastily accused said president of being Muslim

Therefore white privilege exists?

[CreekDog]

4. he's as American and Christian as any other president

but more questioned about that than any other president.

so, yes.

[CANDO]

30. Questioned by whom?

All whites? Is that what you're saying? The hostility is largely ideological, not race based. You think the conservatives wouldn't be savagely attacking Hillary or whomever the Democratic President was/is. They snidely attack his race because that's what they do, they attack anything that makes him/her the evil "other". Stop extending your views of societal discrimination as the fault of "all" of a particular demographic. By doing so, you then become a discriminator.

[CreekDog]

31. so segregation wasn't racist unless all whites supported it?

you probably expect a response.

a privileged thought.

[CANDO]

37. I don't expect shit from you, but that's what I got.

Did I say segregation was or wasn't supported by all whites? No, I did not. Did I suggest segregation wasn't racist? No, I did not. Are you saying segregation was supported by ALL whites? Was discrimination against Italian and Irish immigrants due to "white privilege"? Seems to me these endless screeds against "white privilege" are masking something more internal to the poster than anything external. What is it you wish from me, a "privileged" white man?

[CreekDog]

39. you said the stuff against Obama wasn't racist unless it was from all whites

that's the equivalent.

Questioned by whom?

All whites? Is that what you're saying? The hostility is largely ideological, not race based.

[CANDO]

66. I didn't say that.....you self admittedly equivicated that.

I never said that the right's attacks were not race based. I said they were largely ideological. We all know the right's penchant for using any tool in their arsenal at attacking the opposition. It should be no surprise they use race based tactics to paint the Prez as "other", or "evil". I guarantee you that if Herman Cane were a Republican president, you wouldn't see such racist bullshit from the right. Are they racist on the right? Yes, to an extent. But they are largely driven to political hatred by their ideology first and foremost. The President's racial makeup makes it all too easy for them to attack him from that front. Wait and see the hatred and vitriol directed toward Hillary or whomever the next Democratic President is. You'll see what I mean.

[bravenak]

51. Why the heck do you have so much fear that somebody wants something from you!??!

Black people don't want anything from YOU!!! EVER!! If you like your stuff, you can keep it.

The thing we want is acknowledgement of the problem, and an end to racial discrimination, and an end to sentencing disparities betewen races in criminal courts. You know, like equality??

Why the heck you take it so personally, that you think we want to take your CDL from you, is kinda bizarre to me.

I mean, what the hell do you have that's so awesome that all the black people in America want to rush up and take it from you? Nothing!!!!! You have nothing that we want!!! Get over it!!!

[CreekDog]

104. he's afraid somebody will want his Mantovani records

[bravenak]

107. Ah ha!

I knew it was something dear to him.

[CreekDog]

57. are you white?

you seem really concerned that your race might somehow mean something negative for you.

interesting.

nonwhites live with this day in and day out.

many whites here are freaking out at the mention of it because they aren't used to hearing it.

[CANDO]

75. Who is "freaking out"?

I've been responding to these "white privilege" threads because they don't make sense. Yes, there is and has been race based discrimination. What do you want from me? I didn't cause it, nor have I participated in it. That is why it makes no sense for you and others to come on here and post threads about it. It is pointless. Or is there a point you'd like to make? White privilege exists....OK.....?....what is your point then? Here, you're supposed to say "see, they don't get it...that's white privilege"......to which I respond....what is your point? What do you want from me?

[gollygee]

59. New immigrant groups faced discrimination

however they were eventually brought into the community and considered just plain old American, at least within a couple of generations.

But most African Americans have been in the US longer than most white Americans (as the main white immigration explosion was in the early 1900s) but have been kept as an "other" group that whole time. Their ancestry never became irrelevant, or trivial. It's still the biggest obstacle they face.

[CANDO]

78. And I personally consider any American...

regardless of where they came from....an American. Nothing more, nothing less. Pretty much most of white America who didn't have a problem voting into office our first black President, are not racists and are obviously not prejudiced in their worldview. And yet we have a dearth of these "white privilege" threads here lately, and I'm wondering why? Why here? It's not making sense to me because of all the places and people to preach to on this subject, why here? This is probably the one place where you're wasting your time because you're just preaching to the choir.

[gollygee]

105. Most of white America didn't vote for him

but I'm sure they had a variety of reasons. There's no way to know how much of a difference race made, and to how many people.

What you personally consider American is not necessarily true for everyone. I think a pretty good sized group of people don't see people of color as fully American, which was reflected in the "We Want America Back" sentiments. From whom did they want America back? The assumption is that it was taken away from America or Americans. I don't think a white person would have seen that.

We have a lot of white privilege threads because people keep posting to them. If people all agreed, and were all in "the choir," then it seems like we'd all agree and the threads wouldn't get many replies and they'd sink.

[CANDO]

141. I did not say most of white America.

I said something about 35% of white America.

[AverageJoe90]

127. Where did he mention Jim Crow? nt

[Capt. Obvious]

5. So,

I'm hungry.

I eat lunch.

Therefore it's 36 degrees outside?

[Boom Sound 416]

8. Eggzaclee

[gollygee]

11. Why does having a parent from Kenya make your citizenship questioned

yet having a parent from a country primarily made up of white people, like the UK, or Canada, or Australia, not cause citizenship to be questioned?

People think he's not American no matter how many copies of his birth certificate they see, regardless of the fact that his birth was announced in the local paper at the time. Do you think that would have happened to a white person with a parent from the UK?

[Boom Sound 416]

13. Here's a better question

Do the racially motivated attacks on the nation's first mixed race president have anything to with 'white privilege'?

[gollygee]

16. Political candidates who are white do not have to deal with racially motivated attacks

which is a privilege.

They don't have their citizenship questioned even if they have a parent from another country, and that is a privilege.

[Boom Sound 416]

21. To not be a victim of racism is not privilege

I'm trying to articulate that better.

I don't remember Jesse Jackson being questioned about his status when he ran or al sharpton for that matter. Are they privileged?

[gollygee]

28. I said "even when they have a parent from another country."

Do they have parents from other countries?

My daughter was playing with some kids at the playground when she was younger, and another kid said he wasn't allowed to play with them because they weren't American. (They were American, but they were black.) My daughter didn't get it. She said that her dad isn't American but she plays with him. But the kid said (in front of his mom) that black people aren't American. She didn't correct him. There is a line of thought that America belongs to white people and other people aren't American no matter how long their families have lived here.

People of color get questioned about their citizenship pretty often. There's a funny youtube video made by an Asian American woman about people wondering where she's from, and then where she's *really* from. I went to college with a young woman who grew up very close to me and went through school with me and I remember walking out of the student union with her when someone asked her where she was from. "Where are you from?" She was from the same place I was from, but I'm white and she's black. People of color are sometimes treated like perpetual foreigners.

[Boom Sound 416]

36. I'm having a hard time believing the first story

One thing I've learned about cold hard racist is that they generally practice it with members of their own race and too cowardly to face someone one to one about it; especially in the setting you describe.

But, I'll give stop short of total disbelief.

That said, I'm trying to find the parallel between your anecdotes and how the nations first mixed race president proves white privilege.

[gollygee]

38. It was a kid

and they'll say in public what they hear at home, and what the parents wouldn't say outside the home.

As for the second, my point is that a great number of people don't see people of color as being truly American. No matter where they were born or how long their ancestors have been here.

[Boom Sound 416]

48. You said the mother did not correct the little girl

That's the most important part of the story.


On your second point. To some degree, seeing a person of color outside a few major metro areas and asking where they are from is not exactly an incredulous act.

And to lump all white folk together that way is a generalization I'm not ready to make.

Also, have you traveled to places that have large or predominant populations of non-white people? I.e., if you walks the streets of Atlanta I don't think you'd find a lot of white people asking black people where they are from and expecting to hear an African nation.

[gollygee]

63. No, she didn't

which surprised me. But she didn't say anything at all.

I went to college in a multiethnic city.

I have been in places with a predominant population of people of color and have never been asked where I am from.

[Boom Sound 416]

67. Maybe you looked American so no one had to ask

Maybe you were in a place where that is not the custom. Who knows? But this is why generalizations break down. Are you saying only America has this problem? Or perceived problem?

I'll give you an example

I'm from the south. Everyone nods and acknowledges passers by. If you don't you are weird.

I live in the north where if you nod and acknowledge someone you are weird.

You see what I mean?

[gollygee]

69. What does "look American" mean?

It means white.

No, the US is not the only place with white privilege.

[Boom Sound 416]

70. Really, that means white

Remember when Dennis rodman was in North Korea...

[gollygee]

71. I think it's a general feeling in the US

that to look American means a few things, but first would be white. Clothing style would probably be second.

Dennis Rodman is a very well known celebrity.

[CreekDog]

110. "looked American"?

your hood, oops, mask, is starting to slip.

[Boom Sound 416]

121. Yes looked American

As in lots of people leave the Bay Area once or twice in their life and go to other countries. And those folks look American to the nationals of whom they are visiting.

Try getting outside mom's basement once or twice and expand a little.

[CreekDog]

123. what does an American look like?

[Boom Sound 416]

124. Wow

You really haven't left the country have you. And here you are all host and Mir team and calling me a racist.

Wow.

[CreekDog]

130. i have left the country, many times

i've been outside my area, lived out of state multiple times.

now what are those things supposed to tell me?

what you seem to be saying is that if i didn't live in the Bay Area, where Americans don't "look" like any one ethnicity or race, i would learn that people in this country and others look the same as each other.

you're from the south, do southerners look white or black to you?

[Boom Sound 416]

131. Damn

That's fuckin racist

[Boom Sound 416]

125. That really clammed you up, eh?

[CreekDog]

32. yes in fact, it is a privilege

to be wealthy and not be poor, that's a privilege.

[Boom Sound 416]

82. Born wealthy is to be privileged.

Sure. Like say Michael Jordan's kids are privileged.

[CreekDog]

111. if they stand across the street from some white kids

who will get picked up first by a taxi?

i'll take my answer now.

[Boom Sound 416]

126. To many variables

[CreekDog]

128. you grew up in the South, but just can't be convinced that racism is harmful across the board

[Boom Sound 416]

129. That makes no sense at all

Talk to me when you get a stamp on your passport.

[CreekDog]

132. i've been out of the country lots of times

maybe that's why i'm incredulous that you seem to think that people in various countries all look alike.

in England, does everyone look white? no.

in Mexico, does everyone look dark? does everyone look light? no.

in Canada, does everyone look white? no, definitely not.

when riding the Metro in Paris, do Parisians look alike? no.

when you go to a Catholic church in Utah, does everyone look white? no.

when you go to agricultural regions in Idaho, does everyone look white? no.


i realize that i am dealing with arguments which are the intellectual equivalent of Archie Bunker.

[Boom Sound 416]

133. You said race I said nationality

Maybe that's why your last few post are fuckin racist

[CreekDog]

135. so you're saying that the "American" nationality looks a certain color?

i don't agree, but what color would you say that is?

[Boom Sound 416]

136. No I didn't say that. I said look American

I never mentioned race as that was not my point. But I see what yours is, which is why you sound pretty fuckin racist right now

[CreekDog]

138. "look" American? do they wear flannel?

jeans?

what do you mean. you said it. are you not explaining it because you know you can't get away with saying what you think?

[Boom Sound 416]

140. The first time I had a conversation about

"Look American" was probably in Berlin, chatting with some German Turks.


Had a really good chat about that subject with a hotel security guard in Meknes.

Part of the great thing about traveling is learning how others see us.

But, hey what am I saying? You know that!

[Boom Sound 416]

134. Oh and

Bullshit you have

[1StrongBlackMan]

62. Yes it is.

[Boom Sound 416]

81. Would you elaborate?

[LanternWaste]

83. I think you're missing both the implied and the obvious qualifier "all other things being equal"

I think you're missing both the implied and the obvious qualifier "all other things being equal", regardless of whether you're missing it on purpose or not.

[Boom Sound 416]

84. You lost me. Sorry.

Did I miss a post?

[cyberswede]

91. Whatever disadvantages a white person has, their lot in life would be worse if they were also black.

So, a poor, unemployed white guy who lives in a shack is actually slightly better off than a poor, unemployed black guy who lives in a shack. All else being equal, being a minority just makes it worse. Does that make sense?

It's part of the overall premise of privilege. Whatever one's circumstances may be, it would be harder to have those same circumstances PLUS being black, for example.

It applies for people in good circumstances or bad.

[Boom Sound 416]

97. I totally understand

And I'm not blind to life in America.

But also ensconced in the concept of white privilege is ...

Something I wrote a couple days

93. Nice post
You wrote,

"Guilt comes from doing something that one knows to be wrong and harmful, and to feel responsibility for that wrong and harm.. "

The 'something done' is to have been born swm.

You say privilege requires nothing therefore no guilt is assigned. Privilege by your standard ends at realization. What of the SWM who is aware of the privilege? He has realized what he's done and what he's perpetuated (by merely existing) and therefore in an attempt to end it must define it.

Ok, so how do we define it? Well, it's called white privilege.

All I'm really seeing there as a defining characteristic is race.

So what's the OP asking? Is the term racially divisive? How can't it be?

And what of our protagonist? He's long gone and millions of us have followed learning from him the terrible truth. And so we are the guilty. The only guilty people who also bare no responsibility.


That can't be right.

[cyberswede]

100. Ok, so it must be the term itself that is the issue.

Here's another thread you might find interesting - it's short, and I think the OP makes some good points, specifically about how "white privilege" as a term might be causing some misunderstanding.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024604306

[Boom Sound 416]

106. Thanks. I read a little of that thread

It's more than just saying its Semantics or word choice.

It's about this idea of guilt or blame without responsibility. The idea that a wrong can be known and therefore the work is compete.

Sorry. Trying to articulate this better. I'll take another crack it

[1StrongBlackMan]

98. Thank you ...

Whatever hardship a white person experiences, occurs without the added burden of racial discrimination; whatever success a Black (or Brown or non-white) person experiences, occurs despite the added burden of racial discrimination. This lack of burden is a privilege, as in an unearned benefit.

[cyberswede]

101. Well said! That breaks it down perfectly. nt

[Boom Sound 416]

143. Does this require total commitment?

Because it's seems like it would have to.

Which I guess goes to the root of the problem. Which is also why words matter.

Which is also why fighting for a definition or term of and well and established concepts abd realities such as racism, discrimation, bigotry, etc. is really silly. Silly, because it's meaningless in the battle of the cultural shift. But, also inhibiting. People start thinking that they've done their part to win a euphemism upon the dialoge and things are going to slow down.

[CreekDog]

113. he lost you because you don't know what you're talking about

you just figured that instead of study and knowledge that you could just post random bleetings and have people take you seriously.

now you find that other people actually know stuff from studying the topic and that knowledge means you're in over your head.

most of your posts just profess ignorance on topic after topic, yet you expect to be taken seriously on a serious topic like this one? why?

you want to convince people here? study, learn.

[Boom Sound 416]

119. ...

[CreekDog]

108. so privilege goes both ways, is that what you're saying?

so it's 1941, Japanese Americans are in internment camps. white people are not.

white people have the privilege of not being in those camps.

what is the privilege of the Japanese Americans in the camps?

[Boom Sound 416]

109. Damn. Wasn't listening and I missed it.

Please re-post

[CreekDog]

116. you've given up

not that your earlier posts in this thread suggest you were actually putting much effort in then either.

but now? just in over your head.

[Boom Sound 416]

118. DUzy

From mr radio-silent himself!!!

[CreekDog]

137. You joined well after DUzy's stopped

interesting.

[Boom Sound 416]

139. No shit Sherlock

[bravenak]

58. You know it does.

The racist white people don't think a black person should ever lead this majority white nation. That privilege belongs to them and their people. So they question his citizenship and call for impeachment all the time.

[Boom Sound 416]

60. What about the rest of the white people?

Like the tens of millions who voted him into office. Twice.

What's their role?

[bravenak]

74. They are on our side.

They missed the racist newsletter and never joined up with the idiots that discriminate. Thank you for that Boom Sound.
We both know that most white people aren't racist, they got stuck in this crap and want to change it. I have a friend who dad was in the Klan, his bullshit did not rub off on his kids. They were disgusted by it and went in the opposite direction. That's how I see white people who aren't racist. They got stuck in a system that is unequal in their favor. They work with us to bring us all up to the same level of equality, but the racism in the white community prevents our goals from coming to fruition. They need to work on the white side and help fix their friends and family. Black people can't do it. We have no way in to their circles. We need y'all to infiltrate and blow their racist little world assunder. We just want you white people to fix your racists and stop letting them run around being racist little shits. If they are your family, she them your disgust openly and tell them they are wrong everytime they let something slip. If they are your friends you need to call them out and question their views constantly. I do it with my family and friend all the time. I have a cousin who is a republican. I make fun of him so bad he can't even vote.

[Cleita]

25. I was listen to gasbag Limbaugh this morning. According to him

99% of people are Republican or conservative. The Democrats are all in the inner cities. So translated that means Republicans are white and are a huge majority except for all those brown people in inner cities who are Democrats and they are probably Kenyan Muslims too.

As stupid and blatantly racist as this is, he is actually making sense to way too many white Americans who really don't believe there is white privilege.

[cyberswede]

2. And this: "You Can Make A Black Woman The First Lady, But That Doesn't Mean She Will Have Any Class"

(from an OP by Archae )

WND: 'You Can Make A Black Woman The First Lady, But That Doesn't Mean She Will Have Any Class'

Submitted by Brian Tashman on Tuesday, 3/4/2014 11:45 am

WorldNetDaily’s Mychal Massie writes today that the new nutrition facts label championed by Michelle Obama is proof that she’s a “bigoted, racialist” first lady who is “usurping authority and inflicting additional financial injury upon an already suffering people.” Massie claims the cost of the program will add “more unnecessary financial burden” to families; in fact, the New York Times reports that in total, “the health benefits could eventually be as much as $30 billion.” Citing an article from the tabloid the National Enquirer about the first lady’s “disgusting” and “privileged position,” Massie writes that Michelle Obama should “stick to doing jumping-jacks and writhing around on the floor of Ellen DeGeneres’ set, much to the delight of DeGeneres.”

- See more at: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/wnd-you-can-make-black-woman-first-lady-doesnt-mean-she-will-have-any-class#sthash.cfwaEZZY.dpuf

[1awake]

3. It exists

even if we disagree on specifics about it, but not so sure your use of Obama has much to do with it.

[CreekDog]

6. yes, his American-ness is questioned, because of his race, this ancestry

Last edited Tue Mar 4, 2014, 05:31 PM - Edit history (1)

even his Christianity is questioned.

this is NOT something that has happened to a white president.

[Boom Sound 416]

9. So that helped me get a higher salary

Than my minority colleague?

[1awake]

12. White priviledge did no such thing...

The term denotes both obvious and less obvious unspoken advantages that white persons may not recognize they have, which distinguishes it from overt bias or prejudice.

In other words if there is discrimination, then inherently there is non discrimination. Can't have one without the other. White privilege is the absence of discrimination felt by minorities in the US, it is not the cause, and its not privileged above and beyond the lack in being discriminated against.

Right idea... wrong term.

[CreekDog]

15. no, you don't get it. it's a privilege to not face that.

you don't get it.

[sufrommich]

18. "it's a privilege not to face that"

Perfectly stated.

[1awake]

22. Did you even read what I wrote??

Where in there did I say it wasn't? In fact... thats exactly what I said lol. let me quote myself so you can try again....

White privilege is the absence of discrimination felt by minorities in the US, it is not the cause, and its not privileged above and beyond the lack in being discriminated against.

You citing Obama's discrimination does not prove white priviledge, not that it needs to be proved. It proved discrimination. White priviledge is the other side of the coin.

[Boom Sound 416]

23. Nope

[1awake]

24. lol well that clears it up.

say what you want if it makes you happy. doesn't change definitions.

[The Straight Story]

27. I think the logic is: White privilegde exists for all whites. It is racist. Whites are racists

And if you don't agree it is because you don't see your own privilege.

Of course most all people in the US are US privileged and don't see it.

[1awake]

29. I dunno... I think people latch on to terms

and then make them mean what ever they want them to mean. What I said is 100% accurate and yet lol.... well, doesn't matter.

[The Straight Story]

35. Yeah, we all knew there were racists who hated Obama before

Now it has grown to all whites being somehow a part of it and not being aware of it. Or something.

I agree though - people learn new terms from a book/class and suddenly are wrestling with it's concepts, how and where to apply it, and want to preach what they have learned to the rest of us who they don't think understand things.

[CreekDog]

45. yes, it exists for all whites

no, not all whites are racist.

but both can be true simultaneously.

also privilege doesn't mean all whites are rich, successful, happy, etc.

but that barrier is one they don't have to face across society the way others do. that's all.

it's like having a free parking space at one place you frequent. that could be a really big deal in your life, or just a small thing. but it's there.

[The Straight Story]

61. Oh, I understand it. I also get that by virtue of being born here in the US we have privilege

that many others don't.

How we see the world is colored by that. Other countries learn our language. We see the news and policy through American eyes and our country is very self focused. We don't have the same problems to the degree other countries do.

That doesn't mean we are bad, we just have some perks we don't see everyday (and some none of us ever get to fully experience because we lack the wealth to do so).

White women have more privilege than other women. Rich white women more than poor ones.

I think it is safe to say most people understand all that. What it means, how it is applied, discussed, etc is a different story.

[CreekDog]

72. No you don't GET IT.

within the country, white privilege speaks to the unseen (by many whites) advantage they have in not regularly facing institutional and historic racism.

of course, you have degrees and scholarly articles about anthropology and civil rights, correct?

you're a regular expert in the topic right? show us a published article?

oh...

maybe it's white privilege that you post item after item disagreeing with science on smoking, with scholarship on racial issues...and with what? nothing.

no knowledge, no special study, just crap you made up.

and you expect, no, you demand to be taken seriously because of what you thought of in 2 minutes, you think is worthy enough to disprove entire fields of learning.

sounds like Archie Bunker.

[The Straight Story]

77. Interesting

If not a little disjointed.

Are you denying you have privilege yourself? Privilege has as it's base power and exists in many different forms. In some cases it is large in scale, in others much smaller.

If you focus on one while denying the others are you really trying to educate on the core ideal or just one you find most useful?

The world over we face the inherent problems brought about by privilege different groups have created for themselves (whether seen or not by those who created it/benefit the most by it). At the top are the wealthy and powerful who take care of each other - run a company into the ground? No problem, another one will snatch you up at a high salary because you are one of them. Want the latest cell phone cheap? No problem, you live in a country where you farm out the labor and parts to virtual slave labor so get a new one, throw away the old one, those people will make more and make it cheap for you.

And I don't deny science on smoking, I do question some numbers but at the core of my argument it has always been giving people a choice about which establishment they choose to drink in. Choices involve having power to make decisions instead of someone benevolently making them for you.

[CreekDog]

99. what privilege are you saying I have?

and the game of you posting bullshit to refute what is settled science or scholarship is your M.O.

do you actually think your 2 minute thought about the effects of smoking is something anybody should read in the context of actual science on the matter? well you post as if you do.

i think sometimes you see a conference of scholars on a various subject and you think you should be up on the dais with them even though you haven't worked or studied the same topic as them and you'd like to think you'd be taken seriously when you attempt to refute what they say.

ditto for experts on racism or civil rights.

maybe that's one kind of white privilege. the thinking that your idea, without any depth of thinking or study gets to be placed at the same level as that of experts just because you thought of it.

[The Straight Story]

112. Even more interesting

Are you an American? If so, you have some form of privilege others do not. And you don't have some others do. Do you have a place to live? Ever see how we treat the homeless in this country compared to those who have homes?

I have a good depth of knowledge and a lot of study. Enough to know that just because one person has an idea and writes it down and you read about it in a college course does not mean it is wholly defined or accurate. If you don't like an idea challenged then you are not looking to understand or learn, you are looking for people to inflate your bubble (much like the rw and the last election only wanted to listen to people who told them they were winning).

And people wonder why we have terms like ivory tower.

[CreekDog]

114. you talked about white privilege and you said that i have privilege too, what PRIVILEGE?

just tell me.

and no, i don't truly care what degree you do or don't have. that doesn't make one smart or stupid or anything.

but when you don't have that kind of stuff, and you post against ideas created by such knowledge and study, your idea should stand up to similar scrutiny --and your posts don't.

most of your posts on serious topics look like they took as long to think of as it took you to type them.

[The Straight Story]

120. Still not sure how that is relevant here, but if it makes you feel better that is ok

Recognizing American privilege

I’m not mainly a critic of this country. I’m proud of it, and I have always winced at the casual anti-Americanism of much of the left, especially the antiwar left, whatever the war. I’m an oddball that way; it may be a vestige of my working-class Irish Catholic upbringing. But I’ve also always been clear about the enormous advantage and privilege we enjoy thanks to the sheer accident of being born in this country, in this time.

Virtually all Americans enjoy it, some vastly more than others, of course. Whatever our station, conscience requires that we occasionally engage in the exercise of thinking about what it would be like being born elsewhere, whether on an American Indian reservation or in a Chicago housing project or an Appalachian coal mining town. Or in rural Pakistan.

We remain the world’s superpower – or “the one indispensable nation,” as even liberals congratulate ourselves. That means remembering the old saying, “To whom much is given, much is expected.” We are obligated to think about the cost of “protecting” our people, and our interests (a much squishier question), and how much collateral harm we’re willing to cause to other people in the course of protecting ourselves.

There are (at least) two issues here: The use of drones generally, and their use to kill American citizens. Some values should apply to both. No doubt drone warfare is sometimes preferable to traditional combat – but can’t we debate when, and why? Isn’t it possible that removing the risk of losing American lives by using unmanned predators will make it easier for decision-makers to risk the lives of those who aren’t Americans? Shouldn’t we know more about when and why drone strikes are launched, as well as who’s been killed, at the cost of how much collateral damage, most important, the number of “non-combatants” — innocent people – who are killed?

http://www.salon.com/2013/02/07/recognizing_american_privilege/

American privilege is not what many Americans often think it is. It is not about living in a great place full of opportunities and freedom instead of a horrible swamp. What is important to understand is that America, the USA, did not earn the good things it has through honest, hard work: specific historical conditions made the USA rich and powerful. It uses that power to work for its interests.

So having American privilege means being on the stronger side of the power struggle.

Here are some common ways of displaying American privilege (note that some of these apply to Western privilege in general):

Seeing your nation as “default” – it is normal, everybody else is “different”.
Assuming your cultural norms are universal.
Not knowing what is like to have war in your homeland.
Expecting people in other countries to speak your language when you travel abroad.
Assuming everybody knows, or should know, your culture (even things like the “American Idol” contestants).
Assuming nobody else has any of the technological advantages you have – like not knowing how to use a computer or even an oven.
Believing everything you see on the news, even though it is told from the American point of view and is not a universal truth.
Assuming everybody wants to live in America, since it is the best place to live (even without universal health care).
Seeing people from other countries as inferior to you, even if they are highly educated and successful.
Having plenty of movies and TV shows in your language, full of people from your country, showing your culture and way of life.
Becoming famous or successful much more easily even if you suck at what you do.
Assuming everyone on the Internet is American.
Believing everybody else wants to adopt the American way of life. If they do not, there is something wrong with them. If they do not, America is going make them.
You can take the liberty of shortening or changing people’s names if they are hard for you to pronounce.
Believing America is fair and free. Everybody else lives in a mess.
Assuming everybody wants the USA to help them.
Seeing the USA as the best nation there is and being confused when others feel the same about their own countries.
Being confused about people who do not like the USA or those who think it is not perfect. They must be jealous!

And it's not just America, there are folks who live in countries that - by being born there - give them more privilege than others in the world. In the west we treat other countries as our cheap labor force so that we can get the things we want to entertain ourselves with. From diamonds to gas to electronics we toss out a few bucks without caring because we know that we are not the ones working for pennies a day. We have more rights, more freedoms, and more things than most of them can hope to have.

Our actions and lack of inaction keeps others in misery, depletes rain forests, and pollutes the earth. We don't see how privileged we are to be born here and when we do we often just look the other way. We expect other countries to learn our language but we don't learn theirs.

The list is long and obvious.

There are a lot of people who have privilege. Focusing on that as a core and working on equality for all and seeing all as a part of the problem is the bigger goal.

You deny you have privilege. I don't. I just see it existing in many places for many different groups.

[CANDO]

50. No

It's not a privilege. What you are saying is that the norm is to be discriminated against. In anyone's estimation, that should not be the norm. So to be NOT DISCRIMINATED against is the societal norm, it is therefore not a privilege. I think you have some serious issues to get worked out. You, and the various others who seem to have been posting these seemingly endless "white privilege" threads. You throw stones, you rile up responses, you never say what it is you're asking for. What do you want? Do you want me to stop discriminating against you? That is impossible, because I've never done that to you!

[redqueen]

7. K&R

[KamaAina]

10. Karl Malone is wealthy, high-status, and popular

yet he frequently gets pulled over despite being the only seven-foot-tall black man in Utah driving a Mercedes.

[Cleita]

20. He probably gets pulled over because he's black man driving a Mercedes. n/t

[Boom Sound 416]

26. ??

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2895483&mesg_id=2895852

[Fix The Stupid]

33. Ummm... Nice find.... WTF??? n/t

[Boom Sound 416]

34. I had the same reaction.

I was just looking for a link about Malone getting pulled over and perhaps what speed he was driving and I came across that little nugget.

[ismnotwasm]

43. Because a DU comment

Contains nothing but well researched facts.

Do I need that sarcasm thing?

[Boom Sound 416]

52. ...

[CreekDog]

55. are you white?

[Boom Sound 416]

64. All your enlightenment and our backs and forth

And you need to ask?

What's your point?

[Boom Sound 416]

79. Come on, you survived the jury

What's your point or question?

[CreekDog]

47. and it's as true as it was 5 years ago and the poster is a real person that many of us vouch for

but if you want to start discussing what constitutes real trolling and start discussing one's past posts, do let us know.

[Boom Sound 416]

49. I'm sorry I wasn't listening, could you re-post?

[CreekDog]

86. ??

Boom Sound 416 (2,106 posts)
55. Trayvon did have scratches on his knuckles

They just didn't find any blood belonging to Zim

And

I can't remember the alleged 20-30 cement blows or the 35-45 punches. But that doesn't mean anything other than I don't remember the numbers.

I do rember the prosecution starting the trial alledging Zim was on top of Trayvon ten conceding it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3309179

[Boom Sound 416]

93. I'm going to send you my picture for your hope chest

[KamaAina]

87. Perhaps by '08 the cops had figured it out

they aren't all s, you know.

[Boom Sound 416]

92. ...

[CreekDog]

88. ??

Boom Sound 416 (2,110 posts)
23. Mostly mouthing off, but I'll have a listen and check back in

Steer by your head, not by the boat

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=563916

[Boom Sound 416]

94. That was funny! I can see why you kept that one

[CreekDog]

96. why did you try to make an issue of KamaAina saying the same thing as he did some years back?

what was your point? or are you afraid to say what you were attempting to do?

[Gormy Cuss]

41. Maybe he gets pulled over because he's tall.

That seems to happen a lot to NBA players around the country. How do you know it's about race?
(pardon me while I at yet another thread where DUers deny that white privilege exists.)

[ismnotwasm]

46. I had to go vent

Elsewhere. I can't believe this shit.

[JJChambers]

14. Disagree

The Muslim hate for our POTUS comes from him having the middle name Hussein. The rest of the hate is because he is black. And a corporatist, for those who disparage him on our side of the political aisle.

[CreekDog]

17. the hate is largely attributed to his "other-ness"

it's all BS, but it's very much rooted in what a lot of white people think about his racial and ethnic background.

[CreekDog]

54. are you white?

[Cleita]

19. There's no doubt it and it becomes really apparent when you are on a job

and witness blatant discrimination in your company's hiring practices where they jump through hoops to get around the EOE laws and if there are token hires, those people never advance up the corporate ladder even though they may be more qualified and experienced than those who do.

[gollygee]

42. I've seen this too

I've been the secretary for the person who hires at a company. I live in Michigan and SE Michigan is incredibly segregated. You can tell just from which suburb someone is from or whether they're from the city of Detroit what race they are. I've seen iffy candidates from Farmington and Bloomfield Hills put in the "interview" pile while good candidates from Detroit and Pontiac were passed over. And when I said something my employer said that he just didn't get the right vibe from some candidates, or they didn't feel right. Something vague. I am 100% positive he would say that he is not racist, and doesn't realize that his vague feeling is racial prejudice. (He is a Republican though.)

[Cleita]

56. Your boss was glossing over his racism. I was blatantly told

by an office manager that they couldn't have an AA woman as a receptionist because the clientele wouldn't like it. I questioned it when a highly qualified AA woman was passed over and a little blond woman hired. The AA woman typed 60 wpm as contrast to the hire who typed 45 wpm. Not only that she already worked for the company but wanted a transfer because the hours would be better for her since she had children. The job she had was swing shift and she wanted to work days.

[Gormy Cuss]

44. ^^^This.

Also, one hire is allowed to advance so that there is a token success story, or the token hires get the crappiest and hardest tasks to prove that they're not as qualified.

[ismnotwasm]

40. Thanks for trying Creekdog

I think you're just going to get a lot of ridiculous pushback using baseless rhetoric or stupid comparisons.

One could have a discussion of privilege, what it is and how it came to be (I think worldwide colonialism for starters) but I don't think that would do any good either.

[CreekDog]

117. thank you

it's like some people are afraid to even concede that it exists, as if that somehow means they have to do something, or acknowledge something.

as if that would be so horrible.

[NCTraveler]

53. Your general point is spot on.

But many people questioned if McCain is a US citizen.

[gollygee]

65. Not really

a few people asked about the technicalities of being born in a US territory, which was silly, but even that seemed to be a response to the questioning of Obama's citizenship.

[NCTraveler]

68. Many crazies were questioning his citizenship. Including here. Just as many crazies question Obamas.

No way to ferret out the real numbers. OPs point is still spot on.

[CreekDog]

73. not because of how he looked!

not because of his name!

[NCTraveler]

76. Dead on. I didn't think it through. Allthough I was never questioning...

your original premise. You are 100% correct and I was wrong. The questioning of Obamas citizenship was based off of his looks and name, McCains wasn't. Thank you for pointing out something that I should have recognized myself. Rock on Dog.

[lumberjack_jeff]

80. Okay. Now what?

Or is winning this argument the desired destination?

What should be done to remedy it? If you think that making white people, err... I mean "white men" guilty "for the benefit they derive from racism" is the goal, then I disagree.

Frankly, if there is no actual intent to resolve any of the disadvantages inherent in minority racial ancestry, then I wish people would STFU about privilege so that people who are actually motivated to help can be heard.

If acknowledging the concept is anything other than a steppingstone to resolving the problem, then it's a complete waste of fucking time and energy.

We've been caught in this circle-jerk of collective guilt for a month now. Enough.

[LanternWaste]

89. I think there's a precise and relevant difference between

I think there's a precise and relevant difference between not acknowledging a thing to be true, and assisting others in seeing it; and a "circle-jerk of collective guilt"

(though I certainly understand both the petulance of, and the ethical the convenience of conflating the two...)

[Comrade Grumpy]

90. +1

[Vattel]

85. I don't like the expression "white privilege" for a variety of reasons.

One reason is that it is so often misunderstood. Another is that it has been used too often in a hostile way, e.g., to rub some white person's nose in racist shit that that particular white person might not be responsible for. To me the true and important point that the term is sometimes used to express is that in the USA, whites are unfairly advantaged in a variety of ways. It's like gambling in a casino where the white players are given better odds than the black ones. Some blacks still come out ahead, and some whites lose their shirts, but the whites are unfairly advantaged.

[foo_bar]

95. in fairness, JFK faced similar accusations of dual loyalty and/or belonging to the wrong religion

The Voice of Freedom, a Nashville-based monthly, lambasted Catholics in general and Kennedy in particular on four occasions. In July 1959 an editorial warned that when Catholics dominate the U.S. the voters would turn to communism.

http://books.google.com/books?id=bgAQnsJxSDIC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51

For while this year it may be a Catholic against whom the finger of suspicion is pointed, in other years it has been, and may someday be again, a Jew—or a Quaker—or a Unitarian—or a Baptist. It was Virginia's harassment of Baptist preachers, for example, that helped lead to Jefferson's statute of religious freedom. Today I may be the victim—but tomorrow it may be you—until the whole fabric of our harmonious society is ripped at a time of great national peril.

http://catholicism.about.com/od/history/p/Address-Of-Sen-John-F-Kennedy-To-The-Greater-Houston-Ministerial-Association.htm

I'm not disputing the larger premise, but I think the Rev. Wright pseudo-scandal, including Obama's hand being forced towards a "Sister Souljah moment", revealed more about racial politics and the narrow path African Americans have to tread in the public eye between archetypal "House" and "Field" loyalties. I mean, I'm sure his skin color didn't help with Republican outgroup fantasies about fifth column Manchurian Kenyan Salafist WTFzors, but I'm not certain a Caucasian-appearing child of Muslims (or god forbid an actual Muslim) would fare much better among our low info compatriots. I'm not even sure a blue-eyed son of Lebanese Christians would escape this sort of scrutiny, at least if he were a Democrat, since he'd be one o' dem Muslim Christians.

[Cleita]

103. If you've seen the past Catholic bashing going on right here on DU, it is

still going on. If Obama had been a Catholic, it would have been almost as good as him being a Muslim to his detractors.

[Jamastiene]

102. K&R

[GeorgeGist]

115. Narrow minds are hard to hide.

If they're still arguing with you, choose IGNORE.

[Boom Sound 416]

122. Are you kidding

He LIVES for this

[CreekDog]

142. Look around man

on this subject, in my thread and in several others, almost nobody agrees with you.

and those that disagree with you, almost all of them post more substantive reasons for their thinking.

you? when you're actually willing to state what you believe (most times you seem to prefer hiding what are probably offensive opinions...) it's clearly based on some anecdotes and stereotypical thinking.

it's clear you aren't basing your posts on any kind of evidence or well thought out thinking based on evidence.

you make it seem like I'm your enemy for vigorously disagreeing with you.

no, almost everybody here disagrees with you. and not just on this, but on almost everything you post.

you want to make it about me. IT'S ABOUT YOU. IT'S ABOUT YOUR opinions.

now stop playing victim and if you're going to post on a progressive board, take responsibility for your posts and stop blaming others for disagreeing with you. they're doing what they're supposed to do.