I refuse to be baited on gender issues

[cali]

Last edited Tue Mar 4, 2014, 11:24 AM - Edit history (1)

the sweethearts doing it are just doing it to be disruptive and to demonstrate that they're not to be reined in by the women folk here on DU- or something like that.

The men I like and admire here (and there are a lot of you) don't engage in this shit and understand that women are dealing with a legacy of thousands of years of being objectified and merchandised and being categorized as less then. For some women this is more visceral than for others.

In any case, the game playing that some are engaging in, is pretty contemptible.

[get the red out]

1. I agree

Response isn't worth the effort.

[seabeyond]

2. if it gets too quiet, people are too respectful. then the games must then begin.

thank you for the post, speaking out, recognition.

[marble falls]

3. Another calm insightful post. Thanks, Cali!

[cali]

10. thanks.

[chrisa]

4. Wyhy is holding doors fer wimen obejecterfying?

Wyhy are holdin doors obejecterfying!!1!? Evil Femernists!!1!

[Squinch]

94. Theyy are being meen to ME PERSONALalLY! It's all about ME!!!!!

Stop being MEE#N TO ME!!!!2111!!!!

(Heh heh... this is kind of fun! )

[chrisa]

99. Misandery!

Why do you hate men so much!?

[Squinch]

103. They must all just be ugly and hate sex!!123!!9!

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

5. Agreed

[H2O Man]

6. Recommended.

Bitterness contaminates the vessel which holds it. We see proof on DU all too frequently.

[cali]

7. thanks, H2O Man.

Always a pleasure to see you.

[redqueen]

8. Thanks for this post.

I'm trying to do the same.

[1awake]

9. As always, great post. K&R nt

[BBR Esq]

11. But men are victims too

...or something.

This thread has me so upset I need some dude support.


I hereby reclaim my manness.

[1StrongBlackMan]

12. Amazing ...

The same one's "Yupping" this OP also refuse to acknowledge/recognize or allow any discussion of misogyny ... color me surprised!

[cali]

16. huh?

[1StrongBlackMan]

30. Sorry ...

I mis-read your OP. My bad ...

But see post #22 (or maybe I'm mis-reading that post, as well.)

[BBR Esq]

17. Huh?

My post was sarcasm directed at men who claim to be victims of feminisim.

[1StrongBlackMan]

25. No ...

I was talking about the initial OP ... where the woman refused to be "baited" on gender issues ... and men that refuse to recognize/acknowledge, or call any discussion of gender (and race) issues, "baiting."

[cali]

32. I hate to repeat myself, but huh?- again

I still don't have a clue what you're saying. Just to be clear about my OP, I'm referring to the spate of recent ops that are nothing but baiting. They aren't attempts to have a dialogue or to say something heartfelt about the subject. Their purpose is to needle and demean women.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4601700

[AgingAmerican]

41. I believe it has gone both ways

There is plenty of baiting to go around on all sides. After a while it becomes like a bunch of dogs chasing their tails, and the message(s) get lost in the rubble.

[cui bono]

134. Disagree. Men have posted several insightful and understanding OPs about sexism.

The message has been made loud and clear.

There are men here though, and a few women, who just don't get it and choose to post flamebait rather than grow up and be respectful.

[1StrongBlackMan]

84. I understand this ...

But take a look at some of the men that agreed with you initial OP ... they agreed that you refuse to be baited, but for not the reason you intended ... they see (have labeled) any discussion of misogyny, as a mere attempt to bait.

[Maedhros]

22. I think you mean "misandry." [n/t]

[1StrongBlackMan]

28. Yes ...

because THAT is so prevalent in this society!

[Heidi]

79. KABOOM!

[Heidi]

34. You poor thing.

I'll call in some favors and try to get you on a prayer list somewhere.

[Maedhros]

86. I'm sorry - I misunderstood 1StrongBlackMan's post.

I thought he was refuting BBR Esq's sarcastic take-down of the "we poor mens!" argument, and I thought he meant "misandry" instead of "misogyny." Obviously, I messed up.

I'm categorically NOT in agreement with those who imagine that misandry is a bigger problem than misogyny. I apologize for my misunderstanding.

[Maedhros]

87. See my post above.

Misread and misunderstood the post I responded to.

[wryter2000]

15. LOL

I know you've been welcomed to DU, but let me pile on.

[BBR Esq]

19. Thank you.

[cali]

21. I'll second that

or third or fourth it.

[BBR Esq]

23. Thank you too.

[cui bono]

135. Hehe...

Welcome to DU.

[BBR Esq]

144. Thank you.

[tea and oranges]

13. k&r

If anyone told me back in the '70's that we women would still be fighting this crap in 2014, I'd have called bullshit. Ha Ha I'd have been so totally wrong. Only it's not funny.

[wryter2000]

14. Welcome to DU

Amazing, isn't it? We've gone backward is so many ways.

[tea and oranges]

27. Thanks wryter2000

But I've been around since 2000, joined in 2005, but have only started posting since my retirement.

[spooky3]

18. And the best of the best men call others out

When they see misogyny, baiting, etc., rather than stand by.

[cali]

20. yes they do. It's been heartening to see.

[seabeyond]

24. +1. lol. a simple human being, lol. which i guess would fall into that category, spooky... nt

[spooky3]

60. As common sense is not so common...nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

37. but it is not happening NEARLY as much as has been claimed around here...

the zero sum crowd seems to see misandry every time women start to vocalize on the misogyny....

[cinnabonbon]

89. Indeed. They are a sight for sore eyes. nt

[AtheistCrusader]

26. I'll call it out when I see it.

Otherwise I won't engage on it here. Of all the places women shouldn't have to be drug through the goddamn mud on this, DU should be a safe haven and it isn't.

Alert. Vote on juries. Call out shit posts. That's what I can do...

[AgingAmerican]

29. I think women can both be physically attractive

...and independent/successful. I guess I'm the odd man (gasp! that word) out.

[cali]

33. what? who would argue with that and how the hell does that make you the odd man

out, or even out of the mainstream?

[AgingAmerican]

35. I am somewhat snidely referring to the prevailing attitudes on DU

within certain circles.

I wholly agree it is the mainstream.

[VanillaRhapsody]

38. "prevailing attitude in certain circles"

I think we all know what that means....

[AgingAmerican]

39. Exactly

You hit the nail on the head.

[VanillaRhapsody]

40. I don't think my post means what you think it means....

[AgingAmerican]

42. Mine means what you think it does

nt

[seabeyond]

45. again, when you ignore or are clueless what the "argument" is defining it how you want to

then well.... do not expect people to argue a totally made up disagreement.

[AgingAmerican]

55. lol

nt

[BainsBane]

127. "prevailing attitudes"

You continually misrepresent. Why is it you do that so often, despite having been corrected repeatedly?

[AgingAmerican]

128. Within certain circles

'Cough!'

[BainsBane]

129. Which circle?

Because members of that circle are here telling you that is not the case. That you continue to misrepresent leaves only a few possible explanations: you are deliberately misrepresneting; or you lack the capacity to understand; you don't respect Duers enough to bother to pay attention to their arguments; or a combination of the three. You know hundreds of DUers recommended those threads denouncing objectification, but you still do not care enough about any of them to do anything but ridicule an argument for equal rights. You should therefore hardly be surprised when people see you as hostile to women's rights.

[AgingAmerican]

130. The Thought Police®

[BainsBane]

132. You can think what you like

But when you willfully misrepresent the arguments of others, that pisses people off. What you are complaining about is being called on your bullshit. Believe me, I wouldn't ask you to support anything that matters. I'm not stupid. What you think is irrelevant to me. But that doesn't mean you can deliberately falsify the arguments of others and not get called on it. Actually, I hope people ignore you from now on because it's obvious what your purpose here is.

[AgingAmerican]

133. I love how you guys tie yourselves into knots

Over semantics, because I refuse to be baited on gender issues.

[cui bono]

136. Then why are you in here causing an argument?

Why have I seen you in a lot of sexism threads?

[AgingAmerican]

139. Because it is my right to opine

Even if others don't agree with me.

[cui bono]

141. Then don't claim to not take the bait.

Although this wan't bait.

Okay, maybe you're right. You're in here baiting. That's not very nice now is it?

[AgingAmerican]

143. I refuse to be baited on gender issues

...sorry.

[gollygee]

43. Wow, huge strawman

you've got there.

No one here at DU at any time said a woman couldn't be attractive and independent/successful. Never. Certainly no feminists.

[AgingAmerican]

44. Read post #35

nt

[gollygee]

46. There is absolutely

no prevailing attitude that women can't be attractive and successful or independent. None.

[AgingAmerican]

48. You absolutely missed my point

nt

[gollygee]

50. Your point is a strawman

that there is an attitude that women can't be attractive and successful/independent.

That is what you stated. Then you said it's an attitude, but there is no attitude of that sort either.

If you have a point other than that, you still haven't stated it.

[AgingAmerican]

54. Not at all

A woman can be sexy for the purpose of attracting men, and be a feminist.

My wife is the perfect 'feminist'. When I met her, she drove a nicer car than I did, in fact she still does. She has always made more money than I do. She is very active in her skiing and sailing clubs, myself not so much. She only wears makeup when she goes to work, otherwise not (she doesn't need it to look hot), though she does get a little Botox on the corners of her eyes and on the center of her forehead. She has always been sexually aggressive and is extremely feminine. When I met her, she was the aggressor. She is an alpha female and a workaholic. She enjoys attention from men, and knows how to get what she wants. She is also extremely loyal as a spouse. She is the best of all worlds, IMHO.

And I adore her and tend to put her on a pedestal, which she just loves. She, in my eyes, is the perfect feminist and she is NOT a strawman.

She would get ripped to shreds for being the way she is by a certain, small cabal of thought police that tend to run amok here, but she would just laugh in their faces and go on about her day. Best of all she is mine (and I am hers).

[gollygee]

56. No one said that either

that women can't be sexy for the purpose of attracting men and be a feminist. No one said that.

I'm glad you have a happy marriage. I am very happy in my marriage too. It's a joy to find someone you get along with so well.

Putting her on a pedestal is anti-feminist as it is dehumanizing. Making someone "better than human" is still not allowing them to be human. But that's you. I don't see anything you've said about your wife that makes me say, "Nope, can't be a feminist."

[AgingAmerican]

58. Yeah, sure

She is dehumanized by her husband because he absolutely, completely adores her....right. Whatever floats your boat.

[gollygee]

62. Adoration

isn't the same as putting someone on a pedestal. If what you mean is that you adore her, that's awesome.

[AgingAmerican]

65. That's exactly what I mean

nt

[geek tragedy]

57. cool story, bro nt

[SunSeeker]

177. LOL nt

[LanternWaste]

64. I used to refer to different opinions the same way...

"cabal of thought police that tend to run amok here..."

I used to refer to individuals holding a different opinions the same way; but the self-validating petulance was a wee bit much even for me...

[Dorian Gray]

91. It's wonderful that

you guys love each other so much. My husband and I do, as well. But it's always bugged me to be put on a pedestal. It makes me feel like I'm not just me... I'd prefer for someone to love me for the good and bad. And really see it all.

[AgingAmerican]

92. It is more accurate to say

...that I find her adorable. Of course she isn't always adorable, sometimes she is a monster and so am I, but over the years we have come to an equilibrium.

[cui bono]

138. I haven't read anything that would make me think anyone would say your wife

can't be a feminist.

I don't know what you're seeing, but it ain't most of the posts on here.

But seriously, why do you keep injecting yourself just to argue? And about nothing since no one is saying what you say they are saying.

[AgingAmerican]

142. I say one thing

...someone chimes in and says something else. I answer them back....

It's called a forum.

There are certain, very vocal folks here who do not approve of such things as men (gulp, there's that word again!) asking girls out on dates and stuff, or looking at girls wearing bikini's on magazine covers. I call them, "The Thought Police®."

[cui bono]

152. You can say what you want, up to a point, but it looks to me like your only reason

for saying anything in here is to cause disruption. Why not just not post since you're not trying to have any sort of reasonable discussion?

[AgingAmerican]

154. I keep saying things

Because people keep asking me questions. When they stop asking me the questions, or hurling insults at me, I stop answering. If you reply to me, I will most likely reply back. When that little, handy dandy, 'My Posts', thingy turns yellow, I click on it to see what was said.

Stop asking me questions or trying to bait me on gender issues and I will stop answering back. It's kinda simple really.

[cui bono]

158. Now you're just being silly. But you know that.

That's fine, if that's the way you want to present yourself. Pretty odd imo for someone to willfully present themselves that way, but now you can't feign ignorance when people call you out for intentionally being a disruptor or making straw man arguments.

I know you think you're being clever. But trust me, it doesn't come across that way.

Go ahead, respond, you said you would. I don't care.

[AgingAmerican]

160. Thank you for the barrage of insults

I am sure they are well intended!

[HangOnKids]

163. Oh don't you have to get back to your "hot wife"

Posting on an internet website keeps you from her.

[AgingAmerican]

164. My wife is at work

Your point?

[HangOnKids]

165. LOL

Yep, thought so!

[AgingAmerican]

166. Whatever

Floats yer boat.

[HangOnKids]

167. More LOL

And your hot wife. Hilarious!!!!!

[AgingAmerican]

168. See post

#166

[HangOnKids]

169. Ive seen more than enough from you

HILARIOUS!!!!!!!

[AgingAmerican]

170. Well isn't that special?

nt

[geek tragedy]

223. Maybe you've heard of his wife.

yeah, that's the ticket

[Bobbie Jo]

232. heh

I see what you did there.

[KitSileya]

171. When have anyone, *anyone* on this site not approved of the things you mention?

When some women say that men shouldn't ask women out in certain circumstances, such as at 4 a.m. when they are alone in an elevator, and the woman in question has said loud and clear in an earlier conversation that she is not interested in being asked out - that is not the same thing as "not approving of men asking girls out on dates and stuff."

When women and men on this site say that posting pictures of girls in bikinis on a political forum is not ok, that is not the same thing as saying that they do not approve of men "looking at girls wearing bikini's on magazine covers."

You are willfully lying about what has been said on DU. There's no other word that applies than lying, because you have had this explanation given you several times, and you still say the same lies.

[HangOnKids]

173. It appears this posters is confused.

But his wife is "hot" so that makes it al okie dokie.

[AgingAmerican]

176. My daughter is also very good looking

Are you going to insult her too?

[AgingAmerican]

181. You jumped right into the middle

of a poster proving my point. Your timing is epic!

I could post many, many examples from many threads, but calling people out by name is against the rules.

[seabeyond]

47. i might want to argue, that even though a woman says she is done with the game, that does NOT mean

she is "unattractive" hence the reasoning poo on all attractive people of the world, lmfao. they.... a couple.... have decided women are ugly if discussing this issue of gender roles and conditionings, hence making the comment. thinking that is rather sexist on their part. lol

[AgingAmerican]

61. The thought police have come to arrest me!

Oh Noes!!!



lol

[gollygee]

63. That was thrown in there out of the blue

and nothing Seabeyond said was "thought police" like.

But Mr. Bill is a fun meme. I miss the old SNL.

[sufrommich]

68. I think the poster is just trying

really hard to show us an example of what the OP is talking about.

[Zenlitened]

88. It's got to be performance art, right? Please?

Please tell me it's not real, that no one could really miss the point by so much, so often, so persistently.

Please? Anybody?

[AgingAmerican]

145. OK

you got me there!

[seabeyond]

69. oh noes... mr bill. said that to boys while they grew up, were clueless. but,

i would chuckle.

[AgingAmerican]

72. I refuse to be baited by you

...on gender issues. But you are welcome to keep trying!

[seabeyond]

74. cant even follow this conversation? we are now talking bout mr bill, that YOU brought up. nt

[AgingAmerican]

77. Support your local thought police!

nt

[gollygee]

75. Now you're just getting silly

Would you please quote for me what made you feel targeted by "thought police?" I didn't see anything that told you not to think one thing or another.

[AgingAmerican]

78. You are correct

I am toying with her.

I will be nice now lol.

[Agschmid]

146. In general it's a good policy not to "toy" with people...

Sure is an odd way to get your kicks.

[AgingAmerican]

147. Sometimes they deserve it

Sometimes not.

Generally, you are correct!

[Agschmid]

148. No one here IMHO deserves it.

We are all on the same side, well I thought so until now.

[AgingAmerican]

149. On most issues, yes

on others, not so much.

[Agschmid]

153. Jury says you can do it all you want...

On Tue Mar 4, 2014, 11:49 PM you sent an alert on the following post:

Sometimes they deserve it
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4607784

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

This poster is "toying" with seabeyond and even goes as far as to say she "deserves it". That is OTT, a personal attack and really offensive. To me it sounds like something someone might say after an assault, do we really want this here on DU, we are better than this! Hide this post to send a message that we won't accept this kind of baiting and attacking. - Agschmid

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Tue Mar 4, 2014, 11:52 PM, and voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Self-admitted troll. Likely won't get hidden, but it's a TROLL.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I agree that this is trolling, but banning trolls is outside the purview of what jurors can do, and on the basis of the post alone, and even in context, I can't vote to hide. However, I think the MIRT team should alert the poster that this type of nonsense (toying with another member, i.e., trolling) is unacceptable.

Thank you.

[AgingAmerican]

155. If you don't want me to answer

...don't ask me questions or comment to me. Better yet, ignore me. It's pretty simple.

[Agschmid]

157. Got it.

[seabeyond]

66. you learned from the mens group well. now, throw up your goofy little pictures to demean and dismiss

because you have no argument. but... there are a few you are comfortable attacking.

i think this is an example of the op, perfectly. thanks for the illustration.

[AgingAmerican]

67. Yeah, sure

Whatever you say. It's those evil MEN again, ya got me there lol.

[seabeyond]

71. geeez, i would assume evil would be a little smart. nah, not even. silly, ya.

Last edited Tue Mar 4, 2014, 11:14 PM - Edit history (1)

dishonest? probably. obtuse? certainly. a given? abso fuckin lutely.

[AgingAmerican]

76. Of course

I am male with an opinion, so all of that is a given!

[polly7]

93. Nah .....

You're none of those things ........ someone might need to check out a mirror.

"geeez, i would assume evil would be a little smart. nah, not even. silly, ya.

dishonest? probably? obtuse? certainly. a given? abso fuckin lutely."

[seabeyond]

96. Was that you that alerted on me, lmao. Hey Polly....

[polly7]

97. Isn't it a hoot

being able to call others all those things! I can bet you are laughing! It's just too bad you think rules and civility are for everyone but you. I actually hate seeing people insulted for no reason. And the poster you did it to here, is once again .... none of those things.

[seabeyond]

98. again, after first sentence, blah, blah. poster brought up evil out of his mind. address him. nt

[polly7]

100. I addressed your personal insults towards him, which he did NOT deserve.

I also don't take orders from you. Rules are obviously something you're 'above', so carry on blah, blah, blahing.

[seabeyond]

101. no. you really merely used it as a diving board to throw out a bunch of insults to me. which....

is par for the course. you know. a given? probably. lol

hey.... i am done playing. go at it haus.

[polly7]

102. Used what?

Telling someone: "geeez, i would assume evil would be a little smart. nah, not even. silly, ya.

dishonest? probably? obtuse? certainly. a given? abso fuckin lutely."

What insults to you? The idea that I don't see the need for them against this person? I thought it was just a general rule here that personal insults weren't allowed. How is that insulting you? 'Haus' ... whatever the hell that means.

[seabeyond]

104. " It's those evil MEN again" start at the beginning instead of the middle.

[polly7]

105. I read the whole thread.

Nothing called for your bullshit insults.

Don't tell me what to do. Ever.

[seabeyond]

106. lol. goddess, you are funny

[polly7]

107. Better to be funny than insulting people personally just for shits and giggles.

[BainsBane]

126. I would be suprised if she meant funny ha, ha

[polly7]

186. Oh I know, it's easy to say shit about people, then claim you were

misunderstood, people are just 'obtuse' and ignorant for not getting your word salad ........ 'blah, blah'.

[seabeyond]

188. "Don't tell me what to do. Ever." no. really. ha ha funny. lol. nt

[polly7]

191. Glad you understood that.

ha ha funny, lol.

Keep it up.

[etherealtruth]

235. Some posts aren't worth the energy it takes for the key strokes

Don't let folk with no insight and posts with no value bait you.

[BainsBane]

108. What was that about rules and civility?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4593893

It's just too bad you think rules and civility are for everyone but you.

Indeed.

[polly7]

109. Did you have a point with that?

Every word I said was true. Don't lie about me, and you won't get called on it.

[BainsBane]

110. So rules and civility don't apply to you?

You are better than everyone else so should be able to insult people, especially the ones who show your argument to be full of holes, whereas others, like Seabeyond cannot? We have yet another example of your refusing to follow even a teeny bit by what you preach.
That's a constant refrain from you. Perhaps you can explain to everyone here what makes you so much better than everyone else?

[polly7]

111. I just said, above ...... if you lie about me, I will call you on it.

If you have a problem with that, don't do it. (Your sock was better at it ...).

[BainsBane]

112. I provided a link. Anyone can read it for themselves

If you don't see the clear contradiction between lecturing others about what you yourself do in spades, that is even more disturbing.

It's also very clear from that linked exchange as well as your post above that you turn to personal attacks because you are able to come up with nothing else. That is who you are.

[polly7]

115. You lied. I replied.

I've never felt the need to skirt the rules by using a sock, stealing private info from a safe group to pm around to imply someone is incapable, posted nude pictures and stood by without saying a word while watching another woman skewered for far less, bullied women and called them rape-apologists, pedophile-enablers, dogs, etc. etc. etc. Tell me about rules and civility? If you like, I can post links. Just say the word.

[BainsBane]

124. What lie?

Now a link is a lie? What nude pictures? I assure you I have never seen any nude photos of any DUers. I don't even know what you are talking about. Aside from the sock, I seriously doubt you'll find evidence for the rest of it. Frankly, your allegations are bizarre. Do you even know who you are talking to? Would be one of those cases of collective guilt or all feminists looking the same to you?

I read something today that may be of interest to you: http://www.bbc.com/news/health-26416153

[polly7]

187. That I hate the U.S. and Obama for pointing out Russia is a nation of people

who have no more control over what their leaders do than we do here in the west of ours, and that Crimea has asked for Russian intervention. That lie.

The nude pictures that were posted here by your pal you jumped in to defend, who stood by and said not a fucking word when another woman (called a dog by your group, as I was I - with absolutely no comments re sexism, etc. against it) was called horrible things for doing far less. The private medical info that was stolen and passed around with the hope of making another woman seem incapable of hosting that group you're saying should be immune from the rules of rudeness and civility. The years of calling other women who disagree slightly with even one thing being called ugly, vile names .... the same for men, as shown above - 'obtuse - "geeez, i would assume evil would be a little smart. nah, not even. silly, ya. dishonest? probably? obtuse? certainly. a given? abso fuckin lutely." and whatever else one feels like. And then all of the call-outs against people not even on a thread, the sexist, ignorant language towards certain of us while calling us hypocrites for objecting. You know - hypocritical authoritarianism at the end of a club - to which many of us have said HELL NO. So, you can defend the double-standards all you like ..... there are many here who know them well and don't have to STFU when we see it happening to anyone. Get it?

Glad you didn't deny using your sock though ...... guess you got caught up just once at least by those rules, heh?

[BainsBane]

218. So you have no links

As usually you are full of it. I don't know who you are talking about, but clearly it is you who lied about me since you have evidence of none of what you claimed I did. I am not responsible for what you imagine my "pals" did. You insisted you had links to prove the I did all of what you alleged, none of which is true. That makes you dishonest. I called no one a dog. I have never even seen a naked photo of any DUer, and how you imagine I could get my hands on one I have no idea. You, however, called me a dog. You continually insult people and make up nonsense, as you did in your post above. That you think all women are the same or whatever it is going on in that head of yours doesn't excuse your falsely accusing me of bullshit.

Additionally, the person who spends most of her time attacking and insulting women on this site is you, as this subthread, the linked post, and my post in ATA a couple of months back show. That you think you can blame me for everything that has gone on in the history of DU is bizarre. You need to get your issues tended to and leave me out of it. No one on DU is responsible for your problems in life and I am sick to death of your using me as an outlet for them. Get a grip and stop lashing out at people.

So you insisted you could provide links but cannot because you falsely and dishonestly maligned me, which is your modus operandi.

So here this. Quit lying about me. Quit blaming me for every twisted thing knocking around your head and leave me alone.

As for the conversation in the other thread, what you did was justify Russia's invasion of the Ukraine. You need not explain to me that there is a difference between a people and its government. You defended the military actions of a government. Even that you insist on distorting now.

[polly7]

219. Not ONE single thing posted was a lie.

Ask your 'pals' you defend for all of this ugly bullshit that anyone else would have been kicked off for - particularly a man. Not ONCE have you come to the aid of a woman who's been subject to this crap or even gently told someone it wasn't a good thing to call others dogs, rape-apologists, used sexist terms for them, etc, etc, etc.

Hypocrisy. It is what it is. And it's also why no-one takes you seriously.

[BainsBane]

221. I am not my "pals"

Are you responsible for what everyone you communicate does? If someone you defend beats his wife, does that make you a batterer? If someone you know commits a crime, does that make you guilty as well? Are your responsible for someone you are cozy with calling redqueen a "whore." How about a "c...t" and a "b...h," quite literally, a female dog. Those comments were made by your "pals." According to the standard you hold me to, that would make you responsible for all of those insults. I have never nor would never blame you or anything else for something you yourself didn't do because it is entirely irrational. I am one person. BainsBane. I am not a scapegoat for everything you hate about DU and your life. I called no one a dog. I not only didn't witnesses this much discussed insult, I had the person who made it on ignore at the time. But naturally you think all feminists are alike and that someone we bear some collective guilt that extends back to before I ever joined this site. That is not rational thinking. You most certainly did lie about me. Moreover, when it comes to attacking women, no one does it more than you, as this very subthread demonstrates. You have made it clear that you despise the feminists on this site and devote yourself daily to attacking them. Feminists are women too, yet you accuse others of attacking women. You clearly are a very unhappy person, but that is the fault of no one on DU. I have nothing to do with you or your life. Quit using me as a scapegoat and worry about your own behavior for a change.

[polly7]

222. Oh I'm a very happy person!

No, I didn't lie about you, nor do I blame you for any 'misery' (except possibly your own). Quit being so hypocritical about those you support and those you despise. It's transparent and has been since the first use of your sock.

[BainsBane]

224. Again, when shown to be full of it

You return to the sock. Go on. Post an OP about it. There might be one person on this site who hasn't heard about it.

I know what your life is like from your own words. It is indeed a sad situation, but that doesn't give you a right to take it out on others. You falsely maligned me. You insisted you could provide links but you have NONE because none of what you said aside from the sock is true. I have no problem holding my posting history, sock included, against yours any day. I care about issues. I don't devote myself to attacking women who dare to assert equal rights. You make your values clear each and every day in the many posts you make attacking women, women you think unworthy of basic respect because we dare to advance ideas of feminism and equal rights supported by the vast majority of this website, as the hundreds of recs for the anti-objectification threads showed. While you on the other hand stood when the men who insist on treating DU as their private locker room. That is your right to do, as is your decision to back Russia's war in the Ukraine, but what is not acceptable is making false allegations against me.

[polly7]

226. You know what my life is like?

Last edited Wed Mar 5, 2014, 12:31 PM - Edit history (1)

Tell me ......... I'm all ears. (Did your pal by chance harvest my info from the mental health group after my Dad committed suicide to pass around in pm's to joke about? I deleted it just in case that might happen, but ya never know. I saw it done to a friend and it literally made her physically ill .... but I'm doing just fine now, so no need for your fake concern, as I really have no clue what else you could possibly know about me personally. Or are you using the fact that I'm a rape and DV survivor - is that something you all have a good time laughing over? Seems so, with all the names I've been called despite revealing it).

I also care about the issues - for ALL human beings, not just those in your little group that bullies, insults and demeans others day after day, 24/7.

The ONLY women you think deserve respect are those who agree with you completely. The rest of us are dogs, rape-apologists, pedophile-supporters, can be addressed in sexist terms and called hypocrites for objecting - and not one single peep of objection from you or anyone else who claims to support women. Sorry, your claims are a joke!

Now, tell me about my life. On second thought, never mind ...... because you don't have a fucking clue what mine or anyone else's life here is like.

[polly7]

194. Oh, you were lucky.

Three people thought it was OTT rude and personal - toxic, and are sick and tired of needless personal attacks.

And don't consider yourself special, I alert on very, very few posts but when I see someone unfairly called disgusting things, you bet I'll alert, no matter who it is.

[seabeyond]

197. i betcha you almost NEVER alert. unless you come across one of mine. i hear ya. nt

[polly7]

198. No, I just said ........ I very, very rarely alert unless it's

against blatant misogyny, homophobia, or any unfair and ignorant personal attack such as yours above You must be hearing voices in your head, because most times I ignore your posts as I can't understand half of what you're saying.

Always the victim.

[seabeyond]

205. .

[polly7]

208. Cool. Glad you acknowledge that. nt.

[R B Garr]

212. lol, you never ignore her posts, so it's not credible you even say that.

That brings into question the credibility of every other thing you accuse her of in a near-constant attempt to drag everyone into your emotional maw.

You might want to read the OP again. Just sayin'.

[polly7]

213. I just said ............ I don't bother with most of her posts simply because

I can't understand a lot of them

You might want to stop following me around making up your bullcrap. Just sayin'.

[R B Garr]

215. You do nothing but bother with her posts. Count your posts on this thread alone.

You post the same spam in every thread, so it's pretty obvious who is actually following whom.

Have you even read the OP?

[polly7]

216. I respond to nastiness and insults against someone who didn't deserve them.

Last edited Wed Mar 5, 2014, 01:55 PM - Edit history (1)

If you have a problem with that, I suggest you contact the person who did it.

If you can't do that ....... I guess you really don't care about anything but protecting those who do it.

Do a search of the number of her posts vs. the number of mine responding to them. You're going to look awfully ................ 'something'.

[marble falls]

200. Sea - ignore him.

[seabeyond]

206. mostly... lol. sometimes though, it is just too funny. too obvious. and ya.

a favorite to bring in some cuteness this morning.

[Bonobo]

137. I really don't understand why you do that at every opportunity.

The Men's Group has nothing to do with this. Really. Nothing.

With your own relentless baiting and attacks, it is almost as if you simply do NOT want things to ever get better. That you will not allow any room for improvement of the entrenched positions that assholery on both sides has created.

Yes, I host the Men's Group. Yes, I believe that men have personal things that occur in their lives that they should have a place to discuss without being afraid. One Men's Group. One. And yet you call for it to be shut down.

Are there posts there that represent what you hate? Yes. Same as in GD, same as all over the place.

Are there posts there that are reasonable discussions of issues facing men? Yes, that too.

I can't speak for everyone in the Men's Group, but you are wrong if you think that I am opposed to issues that represent equality and fairness for all people. But I really am not talking about that here.

I just want you to cut it out already with attacks on a particular group when they are literally uncalled for. Is that asking too much?

[cui bono]

140. Um... I've peeked in there and that group is nothing to defend.

It gets really ugly in there. It should be shut down imo.

A safe haven is not a place to feel safe disparaging half the population. Can you imagine if there were a Whites Group and they posted racist OPs. That's what happens in there but it's sexism rather than racism.

[Bonobo]

150. Could you be more specific?

If there is a thread that you really think is sexist, that is one thing and we can discuss it.

But there are juries and Admins on this site that can be appealed to in addition to a host such as myself as remedies.

There are mechanisms for your complaints to be dealt with is what I am saying.

Different people can have different ideas of what is acceptable and can also have different interpretations of things. Your blanket statement is, from my perspective, not called for or fair to the entirety of the issue.

To compare the idea of a Men's Group to a White's Group is unfair in my opinion. Although some have claimed it to be the case, no one I agree with would ever claim that feminism is a problem or that it makes it hard for men. The Men's Group is not advocating for any policy issues or laws or anything like that.

[cui bono]

156. I understand the mechanisms in place.

Unfortunately, the jury system on DU is rather pathetic. In all subjects discussed on here. The level of discourse on here half the time is akin to the comments section on Yahoo! and juries let it stand time and time again.

I'm glad you don't feel that feminism is a problem nor that it makes it hard for men. That's not the feeling I get from the men's group and too many - too many because on a board such as this there should be zero - men on DU. I'm sure you have seen the many posts denying sexism exists or not believing that objectification is hostile to woemn or some such nonsense.

[Bonobo]

159. Yes, I have seen them, Cui Bono.

But I don't own them nor does the Men's Group.

In many or even most cases, those people aren't from the Men's Group.

As for locking threads, I have locked threads in the Men's Group upon request.

If there are any threads you feel that should be locked, please let me know. Or you can discuss it on the thread in question.

I guess my point specifically right here is that the Men's Group had nothing to do with this particular sub-thread and yet the very existence of the group is called into question, its name is further smeared ---and here's the point--- EVEN THOUGH it had nothing to do with this.

In other words, the group takes heat for every perceived slight against women, but the group does not stand, in principal, against women or HOF or anything.

It is supposed to be a place where men can discuss their feelings and challenges in life without being called names for doing so. I am sorry if some threads cross your line, but as I said, I am open to the idea of locking things that may cross the line.

[cui bono]

162. Okay, thank you Bonobo. n/t

[seabeyond]

189. i do not believe i say something at every opportunity, i think you are wrong. and i only make a

comment like that when it specifically applies with the mens group, as i believe it does here. hence my post.

you might want to ask why, instead of a post of stuff i do not really care about.

warren started it, opiate and 4th arm or whatever picked up on it and others. and here is another. when a poster has well and lost the argument they start in with the stupid pictures. it is really about derailing. as agingamerican is doing, admittedly doing thru out the thread. and though i guess i could point to the other style of derailing in the thread by agingamerican and accuse the men group, i do not see it as a specific tactic of the mens group. so i do not accuse the mens group of that tactic.

got it?

[Bonobo]

192. No, I don't get it.

I do not get why you have to smear the Men's Group when it has nothing to do with what AgingAmerican, an individual, posted.

[seabeyond]

207. you and i disagree. nt

[R B Garr]

214. Have you read the OP? You should read it. That will give you context. n/t

[polly7]

195. You post pictures all the time that some many consider inappropriate in a thread?

Why attack your hated men's group for something completely harmless?

[Autumn]

225. The jury is in sea 5-1 LEAVE

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
Mail Message
On Wed Mar 5, 2014, 10:28 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

i do not believe i say something at every opportunity, i think you are wrong. and i only make a
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4608813

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Calling out specific DUers, to justify her history of belligerent, uncivil discourse. This type of thing used to be removed by mods. Please hide.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Mar 5, 2014, 10:35 AM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This whole thread is nasty and someone should look at AgingAmerican , that one really needs a review. I think this is not an attack on the mens group and she and Bonobo can hash it out
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: .
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Violet_Crumble]

178. Remember back when people were smearing HoF all the time?

You should. That's back when I was a host of HoF, and I recall you got upset at the attacks on the group that went on. So why turn around now and do the same thing to the Men's Group that you used to get upset about when done to HoF?

[Bonobo]

180. Thank you for adding that. The thing is...

The smearing makes it very, very difficult to not be smeared simply for being in there. And that's not right.

I can try to make better posts there, to try to improve things, but as long as the shit-slinging and smearing continues, its like the Red Scare, simply being a part of it makes you "suspect". I think it is wrong.

[Violet_Crumble]

182. Yep, that's the exact same thing that happened to me for being part of HoF...

And having it done to me before makes me want to speak up when I see someone else who it was done to turning round and now doing the exact same demonising crap to another group. No group at DU is a hivemind collective. Groups will have things posted in them that I disagree with or strongly object to, but that's the opinion of the individual who posted it, not the entire group.

[polly7]

201. With all due respect Violet,

I disagree. There is a hive-mind in that group. I've never seen one of them come to the defense of other women here who one of their members have called vile names, lied about, demonized or called sickening things after revealing extremely personal stories of abuse and such. Not one. Yet they all rally behind those who do it like it's their mission in life to destroy anyone of us who dare disagree with their divisive, OTT authoritarian bullcrap. On a message board, FFS. Attacking the men's group and one poster in particular for posting a harmless picture here is absolutely laughable, considering what they've gotten away with. And I for one, am sick of it.

(Except for you!, even when you were a member - and for that, you are a STAR!)

[Violet_Crumble]

239. I know. I've seen some of that stuff yr talking about...

Yet I do think that's a few bad apples doing that, and there are a few good folk who post in HoF. To be honest, last time I posted in there, I didn't recognise half the folk there from back when I was a host

[polly7]

242. You're right, there are definitely some good people posting there and I've read very

interesting threads. It's just too bad that divisiveness and shaming good people 'here', a message board of adult progressive people, seems to take precedence, and that it seems the mission of some is to drag into GD whatever naming and shaming - true or not - makes them feel like they're doing something for the day. Sorry, I've just seen too many really ugly things done, too many people treated like dirt, to see what some claim they're doing as 'feminism'. I call it something else.

[seabeyond]

193. ah. you got your scold in

i do not have to "remember back"

as if it is just all better. but, lets pretend.

post 189.

[Violet_Crumble]

199. No, I pointed out the bleeding obvious...

There's no need to pretend. Yr doing now exactly what you hated being done to HoF. And post 189 made no sense apart from that you appeared to be calling one or two DUers out...

So take a moment to remember how some people were tarring HoF with the Iverglas brush and attacking people who posted in there for the crime of posting in there. Then hopefully you won't do it to the Men's Group. I don't think that's an unreasonable request to make...

[seabeyond]

203. I courteously pointed out why I feel it is a men's group tactic. Agree or do not.

The rest of the stuff is history and merely used to scold

[Violet_Crumble]

240. And I'm courteously pointing out that yr doing the same thing you used to complain about...

History? How does that work? If someone steals my carpark at work and I complain loudly and long about it, I can turn around and steal their carpark the next week and when they point out how hypocritical I've been, I can tell them it's *history* and to stop scolding? And for the record, disagreeing with you isn't scolding, so maybe you should put the tone argument on the backburner, coz like it's always used to try to shut us feminists up?

There's a quote type thing that comes to mind with yr brushing off what you used to complain about as history: 'Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it'. On that side of things, yr scoring 100%...

As for the bizarre insistence that someone posting an image as a reply is a Men's group tactic, I've been at DU a hell of a long time, and as long as I can remember DUers do it. Sometimes they're humorous, sometimes they're not. But I far prefer them to the occasional sighting of a DUer who's got a reputation for getting nasty suddenly going all Zen and posting 'inspirational' feel-good posts accompanied by images of cartoon love hearts and kittens and the sun rising over some boring beach. There's only one thing worse and that's this...

[seabeyond]

241. i disagree. nt

[NCTraveler]

217. There are many different ways to educate ones self.

Listening - Listening to others. Gaining knowledge from their experiences and knowledge.

Talking - Talking, even when uneducated, learning by way of committing errors. aka learning by trial and error.

You are more of the talking type. The problem is, in order to learn in any manner, one has to also listen. Your are trying to go the talking route without listening. It is a sure fire way to stay uneducated and clueless.

[Squinch]

113. That's it exactly. The attempt at trolling actually revealed a very sexist underlying attitude.

[seabeyond]

118. I thought it kinda an insulting... Duh. Lol. Let's be obvious in the sexism. Nt

[Sheldon Cooper]

51. We ALL care what you think of us.

You can take that to the bank.

[uppityperson]

80. beauty is in the eye of the beholder. eom

[AgingAmerican]

81. Indeed it is

And love is blind.

[FSogol]

31. We don't agree much, but you are spot on here. n/t

[justhanginon]

36. Good post.

I still remember finding out not too many years ago that a woman's right to vote did not happen until 1920. It was something that I had never even given a thought to. Maybe because I am a male and it just never came up or I missed that date in social studies but I remember thinking, I was born in 1936 and that was just sixteen years beforehand. That must have been a helluva fight and here I just took it for granted that women always voted. I hope that women's fight for true equality never stops. It's just right!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

49. Agreed! It's really only a tiny handful engaging in this - the same tired ones over and over nt

[RobinA]

52. I Think The Baiting

on these gender threads pretty much cuts both ways. I cringe at some of the stuff I hear from both sides.

[cali]

53. I haven't seen anyone posting the counterpart of the SI thread

[Orrex]

70. Just so we're clear, are you only counting OPs in that tally?

And why point specifically to that one OP? There are plenty of "counterparts" if we look beyond that one issue and beyond the first post in a thread.

[cali]

73. No, I'm not just counting OPs, but clearly those who post

OPs meant to taunt, are definitely the "alphas".

I'm not at all clear what you're trying to say.

[seabeyond]

82. *** is an alpha.....?? lmfao. i am sorry. not being mean. just a brain flash of our "alphas"

on du.

[Orrex]

83. Well, maybe it's a matter of what qualifies as "gender-baiting"

For instance, calling men pedophilic wankers/idiots/trolls/asses would seem to qualify as gender-baiting, in that such high-minded rhetoric invites a response that can then be attacked as "defensive" or "patriarchal" or the like.

I would also call it gender-baiting if that kind of name-calling took place in a group with restricted access behind a vigilant gatekeeper.


Isolating the sample specifically to OPs is fine, but it (deliberately?) misses a great deal of gender-baiting that goes on within the threads that follow.

[Capt. Obvious]

116. Speaking of alphas

One such alpha seems to be constantly in the middle of this - and recruiting as many well meaning members into the fight as possible to the existing core of the alpha's team.

This alpha loves the mud fight and starts many of them. And then complains about the fire that he/she started.

This alpha seems to have a morphing enemy at any given time but one that def has a core.

To narrow it down to the SI swimsuit issue is naive at best or willful at worst.

[seabeyond]

120. an aplha woman kicking betas ass? who? who? lol. bah hahahah. this thread has become too funny.

thanks for the laugh.

[Capt. Obvious]

123. I'm glad you said

I'm glad you said that your harsh words on the screen are linked to decipher how often laugh. lol

[seabeyond]

125. huh??? lol.

[Bonx]

95. This. -nt

[Packerowner740]

59. K&R

[1000words]

85. Perfect illustration of the dynamic at work:

What in the following thread is out of place?


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024597535

[BainsBane]

90. Are you still mourning the loss of a previously banned troll?

If you are referring to my posts, that is most certainly not what Cali is talking about.

[Logical]

114. I assume if I don't 100% agree with you on all women's issues I am the enemy. n-t

[bettyellen]

117. kick, w thanks!

[Curmudgeoness]

119. Yes, it is contemptible, but

it has also shone a light on many male chauvinists who I may not have known about without their posts. And better yet, it has shone light on the great men on DU.

[Squinch]

121. +1!!!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

131. +2

[myrna minx]

220. Hiya Curmudgeoness!

Good to see you!

I agree, it's been sadly illuminating how many misogynists troll this board, but it also greatly highlights of how many wonderful male allies we have here committed to our efforts to gain equality. I must admit that I've been suprised and taken aback by some folks who I've enjoyed reading in the past, only to discover they are horrendously nasty about women's issues, LGBT issues and issues about racial equality. This has been quite a sad learning experience.

[Curmudgeoness]

236. I have also been saddened by a few of the posters

who I had thought of as fair and reasonable. I don't even understand why any human being would not be willing to accept people just the way they were born, whether it is gender, sexual orientation, or race and ethnicity. No one group should be "preferred". But I know that isn't how it is, I just didn't know how much it was pervasive on this discussion board. I have avoided most of those threads, but have seen enough to disgust me.

It's good to see you too, myrna minx. Hope all is well with you. I'm here most days, just try to stay away from hot topics.

[Skittles]

122. the real men of DU are absolutely fine

those pathetic gender-baiting insecure little fuckheads - put 'em on Ignore - like the gungeoneers, they simply are not worth it

[Scootaloo]

151. Just play them off to the dulcet tones of Eduard Khil

Careful though, he was Russian, so you may catch flak for being a "Putinista"

[DeSwiss]

161. K&R

[cliffordu]

172. Which means you already are.

Just sayin

[shaayecanaan]

174. Its probably a public service, frankly...

without the swimsuit editions and MRAs, the feminists would have no one to fight for themselves.

Which they do, quite a bit. Second wave vs third wave, trans-exclusionary radical feminists vs queer-friendly, post-feminists vs sex-positive vs whatever else is the flavour of the month. You never hear much about it outside of universities, which is sort of the point.

They have four womens' boards and one mens' board on this web site. That in itself tells you all you need to know.

[applegrove]

175. And no doubt some GOP sockpuppets

to make democrats seem hostile to women.

[brett_jv]

179. Wow, things have gotten pretty friggin' meta around here lately ...

I didn't actually join that long ago but I've been a lurker here literally since the days of Bush v. Gore, and I don't remember it ever being so noticeable as it has been since, well ... around when I joined.

Maybe actually joining and participating gives you a different perspective, but ... it sure seems like the level of whinging about 'how other DU'ers talk/act/think' is at an all-time high, verging on a critical mass.

I have to say I much preferred this place during GWB's occupation vs. what I've seen in the last 5 years. I think places like DU must need a 'common enemy' to really 'function properly' ... otherwise, shit seems to devolve into infighting.

Not trying to devalue your complaint Cali just making an observation as someone who's been around this site for 12 years ... I just find it all very discouraging.

To sum up my view on this particular topic: Perhaps it's best to allow in one's own worldview (if you will) for the fact that there's GOING to be males, even liberal ones, who really lack a firm grasp of 'women's issues' and what it's like ... to be a woman in this world. And how could they? They're simply ... not women.

Also, one might allow for the fact that there's GOING to be males who are at a place in life where they feel like women actually 'have it better', for one reason or another. I've met many men, for example, who feel that the legal system, in particular that which is involved in 'divorce' and 'custody' issues, are very much biased toward women.

Now, *I* know that's probably realistically the ONE SINGLE area where women maybe have some 'advantage', and even then that perception may not always be 'right', but I think some men can end up somewhat bitter towards women (at least for a time) over things related to perceived favoritism (against them) in these arenas.

Women also generally enjoy the 'power', if you will, of deciding whether 'amorous relations' will occur between two people ... and some men, esp. those that've been repeatedly hurt or rejected, may harbor some resentment around being powerless in this regard.

One important thing to understand is that the sorts of perceived 'injuries' that can come into play around these matters can feel every bit as real and legitimate to a given male as the 'legacy of thousands of years of being objectified and merchandised and being categorized as less then' ... can feel for females. And some males will simply react negatively when they perceive their right to their 'grievances' is being usurped or upstaged by 'women's legacy'.

Personally, I walk through life believing (perhaps naively) that everyone around me is trying to 'do the best they can', based on their faculties, education (both institutional and otherwise), perceptions, and experiences. People have their own individual collections of all these things, and everyone's just trying to muddle through, build relationships, find love and intimacy, and some level of joy and comfort in this life, and doing the best they can with what they have to work with.

Perhaps for some men, sad as it may sound, one way to achieve the above goals is to, say for example, ogle the pictures of beautiful women in bikinis, and discuss their appreciation with other guys (since, iirc, that subject is kinda what brought to the forefront this whole 'meta' topic that's been going on here the past weeks, right?).

If I was to hazard a guess, there are probably some who are confused as to why this is so 'clearly wrong' as some women have made it out to be? They're likely thinking "Why can't the ladies here, upon seeing an 'SI Swimsuit Issue' thread, simply avoid it, since it is of no interest to them? It's not as though the space here on DU is limited, such that such a thread crowds out others abilities to post what THEY would like to discuss, right?".

Now, I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, and personally, I never saw or participated in the original SI thread (and only seen a few of the 'fallout threads') that's caused such a rift in this community of late, but I am a male, and as such, I know how many males think. And I can assure you that, right or wrong (probably the latter), some of them have their individual reasons for sincerely believing that 'women in general' don't 'have it any worse' ... than THEY personally do.

Thus, it's not hard for me to imagine that certain males in this world, many of whom are otherwise good people, just trying to get along and find some happiness like everyone else, simply don't appreciate the judgement and condemnation that's poured forth from the XX portion of the DU population over a thread featuring generally tasteful pictures that only the XY crowd are likely to enjoy. I'd imagine such males would wonder why the XX indignation over this is tantamount to their own right to simply enjoy some photos that make THEM feel like the world is a beautiful place, one where they like to exist in?

And I'd imagine some would justify their attitude by asserting, for example, that they wouldn't dream of hassling the lady DU'ers if they were all ogling, say, a collection of scantily-clad males in the 'The Worlds Hottest Firefighters Calendar, 2014'. As such, they may feel like 'Why are they denigrating ME, when I'd never denigrate THEM for doing (basically) the same thing?'.

IOW, they quite simply DON'T GET ... some things that seem obvious and self-evident ... to many women.

I guess in closing ... and not that this is any great insight ... but regardless of gender, I think the most productive thing one can do in these instances is to try to educate, because condemnation is unlikely to have the desired effect. The underlying 'problem', I think, is ... we can't MAKE people see things the way we believe they should. We have to educate, explain, argue our case. And IMHO the best way to do that is not through ridicule and/or condemnation, it's through understanding what makes the person tick, where they're coming from, what they've been through, and what's caused them believe and perceive things ... the way that they do ... and then try to change that perception through a convincing, non-judgmental argument ... not through a 'I'm right, you're wrong' decree ... which in this particular instance, essentially amounts to a gender-based fiat.

[Bonobo]

183. You killed the thread, Hitler.

Way too reasonable of a post. Way too hard to get pissed off at it or put you into a pigeon hole.

IOW, you killed the thread.

[MadrasT]

185. Women do NOT "have the power"

to decide whether 'amorous relations' will occur between two people.

If you think women don't get turned down by men they are attracted to, you are delusional.

Women do not "have the power" to just snap their fingers and hook up with any man they want. It might look that way to you, but it just is not so.

[seabeyond]

204. it is like with prostitution. we will hear argument that there are men that can NEVER get sex, and

they MUST be able to buy women. there will never be any consideration toward the women that cannot have sex. that is not even a blip on a mans argument to males right, privilege and entitlement to sex.

every time i hear the argument about the woe besotted man that does not get his hot chick, or even many women i think about all the women that do without also. yet never.... is she considered.

[polly7]

211. And we hear about women who also can't get sex and must travel all over the

world to find it.

http://opinion.latimes.com/opinionla/2007/11/what-to-make-of.html

What to make of reports from Kenya that more and more (old, rich, white) women are traveling to the country solely to cavort with (young, poor, black) locals?

According to Reuters — which follows two white English women, aged 56 and 64, as they troll for “big young boys who like us older girls” — the country’s tourism board isn’t pleased with the “unwholesome” situation, wherein women exchange gifts for sex. Officials stopped short of condemning it in the way they have male sex tourism, however. And the women Reuters interviews seem to see it as a far lesser crime — comparing it to ordinary courtship rituals like a man buying his female date dinner.

- See more at: http://opinion.latimes.com/opinionla/2007/11/what-to-make-of.html#sthash.BdEmiaf2.dpuf

And more abstractly, there’s the obvious racial fetishes sex tourism perpetuates. Even Reuters wasn’t immune. The article says that one solicited Kenyan male named Joseph resembled an “Olympic basketball player.” (They all look alike, don’t they?) The story then describes a dance club as filled with “Joseph look-alikes.” (Hey, they do all look alike!)

- See more at: http://opinion.latimes.com/opinionla/2007/11/what-to-make-of.html#sthash.GZKuWWSw.dpuf

Why do women pay for sex?

December 9, 2013

Matty Silver

We tend to think that only men are willing to pay for sex but in the past decade more and more women have been looking for sexual experiences and have been willing to pay for them.

It is easier and more convenient than going to clubs or bars. Often the women do not want to be found out; they want it to be private and kept a secret.

Some career women with high disposable incomes are just too busy for relationships. Others who have had a break-up or painful divorce find it easier to have sex without strings attached.

The thought of trying to date again and meet somebody new is just too difficult for many – but they miss sex. They may want a sexual massage or just to be touched and be intimate with somebody.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life/why-do-women-pay-for-sex-20131209-2z11k.html#ixzz2v6CiyZK4

Do you have the same contempt for the 'woe, besotted women' who also pay for sex?

[Sheldon Cooper]

227. polly, your seabeyond stalking is really pretty creepy.

You don't see it of course, but wow. All's I'm sayin' is: perception is reality, and honestly, you are coming across in a very peculiar way. Now, go ahead and accuse me of all sorts of horrors including naked pictures, dogs and mental illness, as that seems to be your go-to response to members of certain groups around here. And alert my post, if you feel the need. I'm not concerned about that, I'm more concerned about you.

[polly7]

228. Sheldon Cooper, your claim of seabeyond stalking is beyond creepy.

Last edited Wed Mar 5, 2014, 04:31 PM - Edit history (2)

This is a discussion board, if I see something that's said purely to insult and demean half the population, I'll reply to it, no matter WHO does it.

Get it?

If someone makes a claim that buying sex is depraved and woe the poor besotted buyer, she/he/whoever!!!! should have some reply to all genders doing the same.

But nice try, I see playing victim is really all that matters.

I'm not concerned about you, other than your obsession with me.

And please, do a search of the number of seabeyond's posts on the board vs. mine responding to them before you spew your bull*. Also, I didn't even address her first in this thread, yet she had to respond to me because I dared address someone about her insults to them ....... I think she might me stalking me! And, do a search for the threads she's called me out by name when I haven't even posted in them. Maybe a bit of research before making your crazy accusations might not make you look so uninformed.

[Sheldon Cooper]

229. Heh.

As usual polly, it's been a laugh.

[polly7]

230. Yes, it has. nt.

[Sheldon Cooper]

202. Ahhh... the 'tone' argument.

Where have we seen that before?

[brett_jv]

233. I'm not blaming either side, this is not the 'tone' argument ...

I'm just deeply troubled by how divided we've become on this site. So much of the world is already against us, we don't need to be at each others throats on top of it.

People (men and women both!) need to grasp that their own 'arguments' are not always iron-clad, written-in-stone 'right', and that everyone's experiences and perceptions need to be considered ... if large groups of individuals are going to stand a chance of getting along.

So, that post was more of a plea for people to try to listen, try to better understand each other, tone down the hostility, and give others the benefit of the doubt until PROVEN they're undeserving. We also need to be capable of just 'agreeing to disagree' ... without residual ill-will being harbored.

If we can't come together and get along on a message board, how are we going to accomplish the important stuff together ... like keeping the Senate and hopefully getting back the damn House somehow?

[polly7]

210. +100000000000000000000000000 nt.

[redqueen]

234. "the most productive thing one can do in these instances is to try to educate"

Have you really missed the countless explanations?

The repeated efforts to "educate, explain, argue our case"?

It is getting through to some, at a glacial pace, but the people who inspired this thread are not interested in learning anything from feminists who threaten certain types of male entitlement.

They label the fundamental, mainstream theory of objectification as "junk science" (much like creationists do with the 'theory' of evolution). They greet attempts to communicate with mockery, ridicule, and even open hostility.

I guess you've somehow missed all this, but I don't know how.

And finally, regarding this:

Women also generally enjoy the 'power', if you will, of deciding whether 'amorous relations' will occur between two people ... and some men, esp. those that've been repeatedly hurt or rejected, may harbor some resentment around being powerless in this regard.

One important thing to understand is that the sorts of perceived 'injuries' that can come into play around these matters can feel every bit as real and legitimate to a given male as the 'legacy of thousands of years of being objectified and merchandised and being categorized as less then' ... can feel for females. And some males will simply react negatively when they perceive their right to their 'grievances' is being usurped or upstaged by 'women's legacy'

Rich people 'perceive' that economic fairness is 'cruel' and 'unfair' to them.

Racists 'feel like' ethnic minorities are given handouts at the racists' expense.

I don't cut them any slack, nor do I cut any to anyone too busy feeling sorry for themselves to educate themselves about the world around them.

[betsuni]

184. Baiting or mindless boasting

This isn't about DU, kind of OT. I've been feeling bad since I saw a "picture of the day" on the news site Japan Today. It was a photo of six young women visiting the Tokyo Stock Exchange in Tokyo ("View from the back&quot wearing winter jackets, knee-length skirts, black tights, boots. You can't see their faces or much of their bodies. There's nothing sexual about them or the way they're posing. Here are the comments:

"Oh yeah."
"I don't know if they like what they they see, but I know I do" (which received a response of "I'd check out their muggs and juggs before making a commitment&quot
"Good place to go on the hunt for a partner. Fill your fluffy boots, girls!"
"Six is my lucky number."
"Get rid of those ugly outfits and get in some shape first."
"Most if not all of them are not aware they wield more power than the brokers on the floor ... but unless those guys look up from their work, those girls are just background decoration."
"They wouldn't be let in any office even as secretaries."

I expect to see rude, sexual comments anytime a women is in a photo, but this is too much. It's not even baiting because women rarely bother responding to this kind of thread. What could you say, anyway? You'd be instantly bombarded with "You're just jealous, you ugly, hairy-legged, living-alone-with-a-cat, man-hating, all-you-can-eat-night-at-Pizza-Hut-fatty, lesbian feminist." That bus is never late. Go ahead and beat your chests with your fists for attention, gorilla-men. I guess you need to.

[Bonobo]

190. You're right.

This comments are tasteless, juvenile and moronic. It embarrasses me.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/picture-of-the-day/view/view-from-the-back

ところで「べつに」っていい名前ですね。

[seabeyond]

209. and for me, this is a world pornifying our girls, bringing it to a norm. i hear ya. nt

[Nitram]

196. Well said, Cali.

[MrScorpio]

231. Doing the right thing should be an easy exercise

But for some, they're having quite a bit of difficulty in regarding women as people instead of objects.

Objects aren't supposed to object to being objectified, they think.

Once women are regarded as people, rather than as objects on a page or a screen, I think that the prevalence towards objectification amongst a certain group would diminish. But they have to be taught from early on to be more effective.

It's more difficult after a lifetime of that kind of behavior has passed.

[Curmudgeoness]

237. MrScorpio.....one of the good guys of DU.

Thanks for being here.

[Drew Richards]

238. HERE Cali Cali Cali...

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

Chin up you're better than them. Let it wash on by and continue on as you do.

[cali]

245. what legacy, my wingnut friend? I'm glad to inform you-

not that facts make any difference to right wingers.

first of all, genius. In many parts of the world, women are still property. duh. secondly, women haven't even had the vote in this country for a century. Women still earn less for the same work as men. And yes, over the centuries, women have been treated as property in the eyes of the law.

I find your comments to be typical hateful right wing dog bullshit.

thanks for playing now go back to your freepfuck cesspool please- and let the door hit your ass good and hard on the way out.