Does the Rio "Carnivale" objectify women?

[Archae]

I just read an article at ABC news about Rio's "Carnivale," lots of women in the pictures were wearing the teeniest outfits, showing off their bodies.

Men were wearing scanty outfits too.

Is this festival in Brazil an opportunity to just objectify women?

[Autumn]

1. Carnival is a festival and a reason to party.

Are the women and men objectifying themselves?

The carnival's excesses are considered an "act of farewell to the pleasures of the flesh," before Lent, during which Christians are supposed to abstain from bodily pleasures.

[Archae]

3. You could say that about the US' "Spring Break" too...

[Autumn]

5. Yeah but Carnival goes a bit more.

of course my "Spring Break" was a lifetime ago and a Sunday school picnic compared to Rio.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

2. Yes.

And for their own protection they should be forced to cover up, from head to toe. Sex is shameful and so is the human body. If you lust after or find someone attractive you are objectifying them. Sex is dirty and should be shamed at all times, no exceptions.

[JaneyVee]

4. Have you seen Brazilian bikinis?

[COLGATE4]

15. Yep. The conservative version is

two band-aids and a fig leaf.

[Warren DeMontague]

60. Several thousand, for sure

but not that many.

[Warren Stupidity]

6. it is a bacchanal

it objectifies sexuality in general. Actually much of it could be considered a parody of sexual objectification. More importantly mardi gras is an organic anarchic community self organized celebration.

If you are honestly interested in feminist perspectives on carnival, here: http://brayhammardigrasthesisproposal.weebly.com/

[dlwickham]

7. oh my good god

[Orrex]

11. You're objectifying the wall in your smiley.

[liberal N proud]

29. LOL

[dlwickham]

45. maybe if I was licking it

[snooper2]

79. In Soviet Russia

Wall Hit Smiley

[dlwickham]

85. well played

[Xithras]

8. Carnival is one of the last vestiges of Saturnalia and Bacchanalia.

It's a seriously ancient tradition whose purpose is to shrug off social norms. It's a celebration of sex, fun, and just about everything else that is culturally "taboo" for upright and normal people.

Brazilians generally have more open attitudes about sex and sexuality in the first place. When you pile a bacchanal mindset on top of that, things can get pretty wild.

I suspect that a Brazilians response to your question would be something along the lines of: "If you're worried about objectification, you're not getting the point of Carnivale."

[thelordofhell]

9. No......It's the Media coverage of Carnivale that objectifies women

Carnivale is incredible.......but all the media wants to show are the women

[msongs]

10. men and women should never look at each other except for 2 minutes when making babies nt

[Chan790]

39. Sinner.

All God's good children were conceived through a sheet.

[snooper2]

80. That's actually not how it happened...

This short video will explain it all

[Warren DeMontague]

66. "Erotoxins"....

A BRAZILIAN TIMES MORE ADDICTIVE THAN HEROIN ZOMG O NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2005/jul/14/farout

[Gravitycollapse]

12. Does it "just" objectify women? No. Does it objectify women? Most likely yes.

[Warren DeMontague]

13. Ask Senhor Testiculo

if you dare.

[pinboy3niner]

23. Isn't that the username of your sackpuppet?

[Warren DeMontague]

50. You know, if I wanted to play that game, I've got a list like a mile long.

Really, it's a shame I'm so damn honest.

[BainsBane]

44. Senhor Testiculo

causing problems again. I'm glad to see he's been restored to full health after his run in with the beagle.

[Warren DeMontague]

55. Indeed.

Even Charles Darwin had trouble accounting for such a fine specimen.

[zappaman]

57. I love that dude!

In a "just friends" kinda way, of course.

[Warren DeMontague]

61. It would make one hell of a Halloween costume.

[cherokeeprogressive]

14. Um... how do I say this? NNNNNNNOPE.

[Kurska]

16. Based on what I can tell the definition of objectification seems to be

"Sexuality that I personally do not like".

So no, because I like it.

Personally I see little shameful about the human body and even less so about the wondrous and so utterly human sexual drive.

Some appear to disagree.

[NBachers]

17. Where is the "negative" rec button?

[theHandpuppet]

20. If you find it, please let me know.

And let me know if multiple voting is allowed.

[Warren Stupidity]

26. we had one for a while. It was great. It was so great they took it away.

[Warren DeMontague]

68. Sorta like meta.

Although interestingly enough, getting rid of it wasn't even enough to get rid of it.

[Warren Stupidity]

69. Meta constrained meta to the meta forum.

Now meta is all over gd. People are going to discuss DU.

[Warren DeMontague]

71. I think admin's purpose in creating meta was to contain it, and it worked, almost too well

and I think they thought they could get rid of it, and the problems it undeniably caused, by getting rid of the forum.

I think they could have, if they had followed through and stayed on the GD hosts with the whole 'be ruthless with meta' instruction- instead, they allowed the door open a crack and now of course, it's back with a vengeance. Perhaps this is an acknowledgement that, as you say, 'people are going to discuss DU'.

But it's the admin's site. If they don't want people discussing DU to the point of flat-out "get some new hobbies" absurdity, endlessly poring over and obsessing on the little details, making their weird little lists of people on this team and that, treating this goofy comment or that ill-timed joke or the other mis-perceived slight from 14 months ago as if it's a high-stakes game of stratego or some other ridiculous shit, they could put a stop to it.

It's their site.

[Warren Stupidity]

72. So even if hosts were still ruthless

Anyone can hijack a completely within the sop op and start their own "meta" discussion. And so what?

If we all thought that was unacceptable juries would think so too. But we don't.

[Orrex]

73. Interesting to see a civil discussion between two Warren factions.

[Warren DeMontague]

77. You should try it with "Rex", some time.

Then everybody could be, like, do I agree with Orrex? Or Rex?

[Warren DeMontague]

84. Exactly-so what. I suspect admin came to the conclusion that no matter WHAT they do, it wont go away

I suspect they've come to a similar conclusion regarding a number of things, pertaining to DU.

For me, personally, it's one of the reasons I don't take certain aspects of this place all that seriously, anymore. The breathless more-serious-than-serious tones about the staggeringly awesome import of some completely utterly ridiculous thing. The DU-rama. The portions of this place that have become increasingly disassociated from rational perspective as it pertains to the actual universe, outside this website.

It tells me that some folks have spent waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long in their echo chambers.

[AgingAmerican]

18. Thought police arriving

in 5, 4, 3, 2.....

[My Good Babushka]

19. I am disturbed by some of the attitudes about male sexuality on DU

In objective reality in Rio and on the SI issue is that there are images of women, most people saw women, but some people could look at them and see only one thing, men furiously wanking off. Not leisurely exploring their sexuality, not having a nice, happy time, but only angrily whacking off with ugliness and hatred towards women in their souls. I think that was really too much. You cannot assume you know what other people are thinking or feeling. Women have parties where they can sell marital aids to each other, and it's celebrated when they talk about masturbation in terms of "celebrating themselves" and "exploring". That is objectifying masculinity down to the part that is hard and sticks out. They don't even have faces. I think men's sexuality was treated with unfairness and ugliness. Some men or women may have been aroused by the pictures, but you don't know that, and you can't assume that. That's like if women went to grocery store and the store refused to sell her cucumbers because "well, we know what you're going to do with that!"
They perpetrated a gross and unfair caricature of men and their sexuality. I think I actually heard Yakkity Sax in my head during the debate. They paint a tired old picture of men uncontrollably chasing women, and worse, painted themselves as the bitter old women in compression hose, beating others on the head for impure thoughts.

[Eleanors38]

38. Oh, I kinda like the block paragraph style.

[seabeyond]

34. have your discussion with men continually telling us they are grabbing kleenix and lotion,

or the grown men saying they would hit IT, do IT, bang IT

now, tell me what this objectification is again?

talking about a vibrator has NOTHING to do with a man. um, that would be the point. hence, no, not objectifying men. that is about lame

[joeglow3]

74. I said I would hit it.

Just as I heard my wife and couple of her friends saying the same about some shirtless guy in one of the Twilight movies. And my wife and I ended up hitting each that night....twice.

To each their own.

[Warren DeMontague]

86. And these posts about the "kleenix and lotion"?

Think anyone actually said that, here?

[Sheldon Cooper]

36. lol

[My Good Babushka]

40. The woman is not the consumable image she produced

she is not confused that she, her discrete living breathing person, is the product she produced. The man (or woman) in the marital aid factory is not confused that he (or she) is the consumable image he (or she) produced.

[seabeyond]

41. now you have simply gone ridiculous. lol. lordy. try harder. nt

[BainsBane]

46. How odd your response to a question about canaval in Rio

Is to worry about male sexuality on DU. At best it's a non-sequitur.

[Warren DeMontague]

59. "Hey, wait a minute...."

[malaise]

21. Back in the day I played Mass in more than a few

Trinidad carnivals. We had a blast and never thought we were 'objectifying' ourselves.
Still we had on more clothes than our men.
Ah well!!!

[pangaia]

30. Trinis forever !!!

Calypso Muuusic !!
Phase 2

[KittyWampus]

22. Carnivale REVELS in everyones' body. Big difference between intent.

In one case there is celebration of all, in the case of porn (however, soft) it's dehumanization of separate group.

[gollygee]

24. Objectification does not mean "wearing a bathing suit"

or "is attractive" or "is not wearing much (or any) clothing."

Here's something I posted to one of the other threads where people were still not understanding objectification. That thread was about bathing suits, but you could replace that with "goes to Carnivale" or whatever.

If you're choosing a bathing suit and heading out to the beach, you're a subject.

If you are hired by someone else to wear a bathing suit chosen by someone else to be photographed by someone else in a setting chosen by someone else and posed by someone else to be looked at by someone else, you might be being objectified.

Here's a definition:

Objectification is a notion central to feminist theory. It can be roughly defined as the seeing and/or treating a person, usually a woman, as an object. In this entry, the focus is primarily on sexual objectification, objectification occurring in the sexual realm. Martha Nussbaum (1995, 257) has identified seven features that are involved in the idea of treating a person as an object:

instrumentality: the treatment of a person as a tool for the objectifier's purposes;
denial of autonomy: the treatment of a person as lacking in autonomy and self-determination;
inertness: the treatment of a person as lacking in agency, and perhaps also in activity;
fungibility: the treatment of a person as interchangeable with other objects;
violability: the treatment of a person as lacking in boundary-integrity;
ownership: the treatment of a person as something that is owned by another (can be bought or sold);
denial of subjectivity: the treatment of a person as something whose experiences and feelings (if any) need not be taken into account.

[Warren Stupidity]

25. yes but we can't post girly pictures in gd and gawk over them

so some of us are having a prolonged upset. We could post them in the boys club, and gawk there, but that doesn't seem to have the desired results.

[Sheldon Cooper]

37. It's amazing how whiny they get, isn't it?

[sibelian]

35. Thank you

Well stated.

[BainsBane]

49. Very well said!

[Orrex]

58. That explains the eagerness to see objectification behind everything

Objectification is a notion central to feminist theory.

If so, then this is a case of eggs-in-one-basket.

In other words, if one doesn't accept Nussbaum's particular definition of objectification, and if one disagrees that a given act qualifies as objectification, then it basically knocks down the main tent pole.

And if Nussbaum's seven deadly sins of objectification don't apply in a given case, then on what basis are we to vilify a man's particular behavior as objectifying?

[badtoworse]

31. Lighten up already. It's a party.

[Warren DeMontague]

52. "lighten up"? "LIGHTEN UP?"

[badtoworse]

70. Excellent, but you forgot Sgt. Hulka!

[Feral Child]

32. If you think so you're missing the point. n/t

[tridim]

33. Everyone knows that showing skin is pure evil.

Are you fucking kidding me?

[Warren DeMontague]

67. Then why did Carmen Miranda wear those hats, hmmmm?

See, you don't have an answer.

[cally]

42. The level of sexual assault and violence escalates during Carnival

Women do not go alone, are often afraid, during Carnival. I spoke to journalists preparing a story on this issue. Of course, western media will not cover the story because it's so much more in keeping with current media practice to show the costumes and show and not what others experience.

[BainsBane]

43. It is not an opportunity to "just objectify women."

It is a period in which people relinquish the restraints of daily life to dance, party, and sometimes do what they might not other times of the year. Some have described it, along with soccer, as a sort of opiate for the masses. You should know that the images you see of Carnval in Rio are all from the Sambadromo, a stadium that one must pay to enter. It is a competition by the various samba schools for who does the best presentation. It's a complex social phenomenon that has been written about in a number of books and articles. The queen of carnval is usually a woman of mixed race, what Brazilians call a mulata. The celebration of the mulata during Carnaval belies the ongoing racism (denied by most Brazilians) that elevates whiteness the rest of the year, as evident in telenovelas and magazines where white women represent beauty.

However, carnval de rua (of the street) is different. That is how most cariocas (residents of Rio) experience carnival. People don't wear the expensive costumes and simply go out on the street to dance, drink, and have a good time.

I have never spent carnival in Rio, but I have in Salvador. There carnval is entirely street. Bands move through the main avenues and people listen and dance free to charge. One can pay some money (nothing like the cost of Rio carnval) to dance within a carnival bloco (like Olodum, Ile Aye, Ara Ketu, Banda Eva, etc.) but you can enjoy carnival every bit as much if not more without paying.


The other thing to understand is that Brazil is far more sexually open that the US, and women are more empowered in many ways. Certainly objectification exists, but it's different.

Videos from carnval in Salvador.

This is a link to a YouTube channel with videos of this year's carnval, from this Sunday.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjtuvQ17A2DO3Lh-wqIGh853XCSXTkZiQ

Olodum, probably the best know of the Bahian blocos, from carnival 2012.

An interesting thing to observe is that recent videos show are now women performing in Olodum, which was not the case when I was there in the 90s.

[Shivering Jemmy]

62. that is very interesting

thank you.

[BainsBane]

63. I developed it a bit more here

and included a link to a live carnival feed from Salvador, if you're interested. Carnival technically ends tonight.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024603847

[HappyMe]

47. No.

From what I have heard it's a big, fabulous, fun party.

They are far less closed as far as bodies and sexuality go. It's a completely different culture.

[Aerows]

48. Mardi Gras is pretty wild, too

I've been to MANY Mardi Gras parades. It's today by the way, and I'm staying out of the middle of it because I've been there and done that. It's a party. Trying to make it about objectification is ridiculous. When people drink ludicrous amounts of alcohol, they tend to get a little loose. It just happens. You go to Mardi Gras to have a good time. I'm not saying that sexual harassment is in anyway okay, it's just when you are going to a street party with tens of thousands of drunk people, you really can't expect for everyone to behave.

[Vashta Nerada]

51. Who cares?

Seriously.

[BainsBane]

54. You cared enough to read the thread and respond.

[bigwillq]

53. No (nt)

[underpants]

56. Link? Pics?

[Thor_MN]

64. Maybe we could track down the person who forced them to wear those suits?

and ask them why?

[Warren DeMontague]

65. does Bobby Cannavale do what?

[Tsiyu]

76. You know what Gyp Rosetti does!

Just because he's not wearing his collar and leash right now doesn't mean he won't wear it for Carnivale, so stop saying that!

[Warren DeMontague]

82. I pretty much stopped watching that show after that season.

But he totally earned that Emmy with that role.

[KamaAina]

75. No more than Mardi Gras does

You do know what women are supposed to do to get a string of white beads in the French Quarter, right?

[snooper2]

78. Show the bottom of their foot?

[KamaAina]

81. I actually used to wonder what would happen

if a bare-breasted woman walked through a crowd of foot fetishists on Mardi Gras. "Show your feet! Show your feet!"

[Dorian Gray]

83. Individuals objectify

Carnivale is carnivale.