I'm The Duke University Freshman Porn Star And For The First Time I'm Telling The Story In My Words

[Mosby]

Last edited Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:51 PM - Edit history (2)

"But why would you do porn?"

People often ask me this question. They know I am a freshman at Duke University, and their shock and incredulity are apparent when the rumor they've heard whispered or read on a chat board turns out to be true.

However, the answer is actually quite simple. I couldn't afford $60,000 in tuition, my family has undergone significant financial burden, and I saw a way to graduate from my dream school free of debt, doing something I absolutely love. Because to be clear: My experience in porn has been nothing but supportive, exciting, thrilling and empowering.

The next question is always: "But when you graduate, you won’t be able to get a job, will you? I mean, who would hire you?"

I simply shrug and say, “I wouldn’t want to work for someone who discriminates against sex workers.”

I am not ashamed of porn. On the contrary, doing pornography fulfills me. That said, I vehemently want to have my privacy respected -- and I ask that anyone who knows my real name respect the fact that I am only discussing this publicly because it was made a public matter when I was confronted by a fraternity member who chose to tell hundreds of other men in the Greek scene.

NOTE: semi NSFW pic at link.

http://m.xojane.com/sex/duke-university-freshman-porn-star

[Blue_Tires]

1. o.k., I get it...She needs money for school so she decided to

work in the sex industry like millions of men and women before her....The "shock value" of this kind of story wore off and it stopped being a big deal a very long time ago...

Does she want a goddamned medal or something?

[lumberjack_jeff]

2. I think there's a good conversation regarding the topic of freedom of choice to be had here. n/t

[Blue_Tires]

4. Like I said in the other thread, if this is what she wants to do

more power to her....It's not exactly a new, game-changing concept so DU has already had dozens of these conversations over the years...

[loli phabay]

6. yup her choice.

[Lonusca]

17. I think this is getting so much

traction is because it is Duke. If it were a big state school, nobody would care.

[Blue_Tires]

29. I don't get that either

Off the top of my head Georgetown has had students in the sex industry along with most Ivy League schools, Stanford, USC and pretty much any prestigious university in California...

[Lonusca]

140. And that list

..is a list of very, very good schools. Thats what I am saying - there is usually something that brings a story to national attention. I think it was the fact that a woman at a very prestigious university opted to do porn to help pay for school. And in the process has been extremely articulate in explaining her reasoning.

[Eleanors38]

278. Wasn't there a recent debt-free Duke grad who got by...

living in a van? He drove it, cleaned it, and only stayed in it to sleep. Maybe it's the entrepreneurial spirit at that school.

[Lonusca]

360. I believe there was

The guy didn't wan't to graduate with any debt (like he had with undergrad) so he lived in his van

[Sarah Ibarruri]

36. I think it would have the same response. In fact, something like that happened

in a nearby public university.

[Lonusca]

139. Think about the numbers though

How many girls in college have done porn, and how many national stories can you think of? I can think of three or four recently that made similar national headlines. There was something that grabbed people's attention - I think that was Duke. I think it has gotten even more publicity because of her response to the article in the Duke newspaper

[Sarah Ibarruri]

151. Almost none, you're absolutely right. Most people don't do those things

And I think it's because most people do not have serious mental issues. Well you know why it happened, right? She went out with some guy from Duke, and lo and behold, he saw her on a porn he watched, and confronted her, as is natural.

[yeoman6987]

105. I see nothing wrong with it and I will tell you why….

How many woman and men have wanted to "bag" a rich spouse just to have all the money in the world? I see nothing really that different. Good for her if she is making a better situation for herself. Again the ugly and I am serious…..conservatives are the ones howling about it. Why is it the ugliest conservative woman have hang ups about woman doing porn and the ugliest conservative guys have hangups about gays and think that they are going to want to have sex with them…..both types are delusional.

[question everything]

258. Right. But is she is so proud of this, why does she want to respect her privacy?

There are many workers, who earn a lot less, who are proud of their skills and profession.

She can't have it both ways. Does not want to work for an employer who "discriminate," yet want to protect her privacy.

[alp227]

287. Considering that society is so judgmental this is a survival tactic.

As long as she can keep her dark side under wraps, she can still be employable in the the real world with the rest of us. There have been female teachers fired simply because they used to do porn or sexy photos. This student has got to compromise between her values and everyone else's ignorant judgmental views.

[KittyWampus]

329. doing porn on digital media ensures not keeping their "sides" under wraps, I think.

[jeff47]

377. Saftey. There's a host of crazy people who would happily hunt down

a porn star. Knowing her name and that she'll be attending classes at Duke would make that very easy.

[cui bono]

396. Why do you think that is having it "both ways"?

Of course she wants an employer who doesn't discriminate against her for having done something that is legal, albeit not respected. That doesn't mean she has to want the whole world to know what she does. There are obvious implications for people knowing you are a porn star and her story being such a sensation is proof of it.

There's no conflict in wanting to be private about things even if you are not ashamed of them.

[villager]

3. What's interesting is that no one questions how the rightwing frat boys who outed and harrass her...

Last edited Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:21 PM - Edit history (1)

...will "get jobs" after college, etc.

[Mosby]

7. Good point.

I get the sense that she is a little conflicted, saying that she is "not ashamed" but at the same time wants to have her privacy respected. I guess that could have a lot to do with the shaming, threats etc.

[cui bono]

378. I don't think that's being conflicted. We're all aware of how society as a whole looks at porn.

Just because she wants her privacy doesn't have to mean she's ashamed. Rather that she is aware of how others will react and that it could have an effect on her college life.

There are a lot of other areas where the same sort of desire for privacy could exist. Do you want your co-workers to know everything about your private life?

[RBStevens]

16. I looked yesterday when a version of this story was posted here

to see who had "outed" her but the Daily News article didn't say.

Today my suspicions were confirmed and yes I think that the fratbros have no fear of being outed or shamed for their behavior in any meaningful way.

[get the red out]

227. Thank you

They are viscous. Why is this acceptable?

[alp227]

291. People love to find ways to ruin other people's lives.

Find something you hate about a person, character assassinate. Some of these frat boys could be projecting their own failures/insecure feelings; others just cruel. As long as American society fears female sexual autonomy, these bigoted men at Duke are enabled.

[get the red out]

293. Puritanism

Hate, harassment, and abuse are all seen as lesser problems than female sexuality. This is so backwards. I wish our society would face this.

[OilemFirchen]

321. Thankfully, we are a much more enlightened group here.

We know that she should not be ashamed because of her chosen profession.

Rather, she should be pitied because of her mental state or ostracized because she's young and prone to making stupid decisions. Also, she's a liar. And, of course, she's only doing this for self-promotion.

As if it's needed:

[snooper2]

5. interesting, I've never heard it phrased like this before-

"We must question in this equation why sex workers are so brutally stigmatized. Why do we exclude them for jobs, education, and from mainstream society?

Why do we scorn, threaten and harass them?

Why do we deny them of their personhood?

Why does the thought of a woman having sexual experiences scare us so much?

The answer is simple.

Patriarchy fears female sexuality.

It terrifies us to even fathom that a woman could take ownership of her body. We deem to keep women in a place where they are subjected to male sexuality. We seek to rob them of their choice and of their autonomy. We want to oppress them and keep them dependent on the patriarchy. A woman who transgresses the norm and takes ownership of her body -- because that's exactly what porn is, no matter how rough the sex is -- ostensibly poses a threat to the deeply ingrained gender norms that polarize our society.

I am well aware: The threat I pose to the patriarchy is enormous. That a woman could be intelligent, educated and CHOOSE to be a sex worker is almost unfathomable."



--------------------------------
Also,
It's a good thing you didn't post the accompanying photo from that site

[The2ndWheel]

9. Wait, isn't porn

the right arm of the patriarchy?

[jberryhill]

28. It's the invisible hand that lubricates the marketplace

[msanthrope]

86. My pre-dinner martini went through my nose. Damn you! nt

[MrScorpio]

204. That was magical! nt

[Warren DeMontague]

347. There are no more DUzy's, anymore

and because of that, you have been robbed.

[rocktivity]

11. I agree with her that patriarchy fears female sexuality

Last edited Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:23 PM - Edit history (2)

Unfortunately for her, it undermines her argument. Prostitution and pornography are the ULTIMATE forms of patriarchy -- unless what she "fears" is not being paid.


rocktivity

[Squinch]

68. This is very true, but it seems like so many don't understand that.

[RainDog]

110. Actually, monogamy and prostitution are seen as the ultimate forms

because marriage is about property, not love, tho we have altered its meaning in modern times.

[mythology]

137. It seems that she doesn't agree that it's the ultimate form or patriarchy

Maybe she's wrong about her life, but maybe she's not. But you didn't actually present an argument as to why porn is inherently a tool of patriarchy. She at least put forth her opinion in light of her experiences to support her position.

To me it presents an interesting aspect of the debate around gender. So much of it revolves around who has the right to claim the title of feminist, or what misogynist means. If she can find personal empowerment in being in porn, who is anybody else to say that she's wrong about her experience in porn?

You can make an argument that the porn business doesn't empower the actresses/actors because it runs through them so quickly, but is that a matter of patriarchy or just general labor versus ownership?

Prostitution has a much stronger claim to being a tool of the patriarchy in that even in a country like Germany where prostitution was regulated, there is still wide-spread abuse of the women who are imported from economically poorer countries to work as prostitutes.

[Blue_Adept]

138. There's no singular "porn" anymore, at least in the classic sense

Yes, a lot of people go through the classic model of working out of California and doing the videos and all that for the big companies that have been around for years and all.

But there's a huge number of people that are doing the smaller private sites, the webcam stuff, personal videos that they put out there on tumblr along with pictures, there's the types that just do audio.

There's definitely more of a "burn through" with standard porn, partially because a lot of them realize it's not really for them. And because there are always others looking to get into it themselves. And there's a whole lot of different places that offer up a variety of different types.

But we see a lot more long-term players in the internet side that don't bother with the classic route, many that simply set up their own sites and just bring out a few different pieces a week of themselves. There's even a strong non-nude tease site industry out there that a lot of women participate in that earns them very, very good livings.

[RainDog]

145. It's a basic misunderstanding of the idea of patriarchy

imo, among too many.

The origins of monogamy are not in mutual love. The origin is monogamy for females, only, with males free to purchase sex from others, just as they purchase sexual exclusivity with one women who will be the conduit, in this line of thinking, to transfer his property to his heirs. It's all about being able to confirm paternity.

That's marriage. It wasn't about being in love most of the time, either. It was about consolidating property between families. The poor, of course, could marry, but no one cared what they did because there was no real consequence, in terms of property.

The reality is humans, both male and female, are not monogamous unless they chose to be - and some fail when they think they've made that choice. Others don't. Or, more realistically, they use something like porn as a substitute for an actual relationship. Or they read a romance novel. Sometimes couples watch other couples having romantic relationships or purely sexual ones in movies. People often don't appreciate that they are, in fact, participating in a fantasy when they watch a rom-com and those women are having sex with another man through the female actor surrogate.

Women do not have a lower sex drive than males. In the past, women were considered the ravenously sexual beasts and men were the restrained ones about sex. That wasn't true either. Both males and females have libidos that exist on a scale, not based upon gender, but based upon individuals - and not just their genetic chemistry, but their environmental situations too.

But people conflate what they want to believe with what is, and so it goes, on and on.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

249. This is a very interesting perspective.

And one that I can't say I disagree with.

Very thoughtful post.

[RainDog]

276. It's basic to (marxist) feminism

like other marxist understandings - it seems they were often better at descriptives of history than prescriptives for a future.

You might like to read this - http://www.isreview.org/issues/02/engles_family.shtml

Radical feminists have argued that any woman who participates in modern marriage is participating in the prostitution of women (as one is the partner of the other).

...Just to note that some actual radical feminists view traditional female reactions to porn, etc. as their unwillingness to acknowledge their own participation in a cultural system - they "other" the offense of recreating the conditions of oppression of women by participating in the system of property, etc.

The point, at this point, is that aligning with a madonna/whore or wife/prostitute separation for women continues to recreate the terms of oppression for all women.

It's competition. That's where shaming of other women comes from - fear of losing their financial stake or emotional security within marriage by the threat of another female.

Engels thought that uncoerced monogamy would be the outcome of a marxist revolution, but he didn't know much of anything about humans that we now do, as far as being able to describe our human culture by looking at our physiology, in comparison to other primates, as descriptive of our way of being outside of the cultural changes we've made and the lies we've told ourselves.

If a male has, for himself, no competition for sexual reproduction, his scrotum is smaller in relation to other primates. Gorillas, who don't compete for access, have small testes. Common chimpanzees, who have very promiscuous sex, have huge testes in comparison. Humans, who have moderate levels of promiscuity, have testes that are within the middle of such comparisons. Female sexual promiscuity, someone might say, determined the size of testes...over hundreds of thousands of years, by the moderately promiscuous activity of females among our ancestors.

There are various reasons females might have had for promiscuity in the past, including confusing paternity among males to protect a child from infanticide, or increasing the number of males who thought they had a stake in a child's well being because they might be the father - that's a theory of the origin of "it takes a village" within primatology - in a long distant past.

This evolved into control of female reproduction through creating two classes for women, that are solely determined by who owns property - women became property as a condition of marriage to insure a male's heirs were the ones benefiting from his accumulation of property. Religion reinforced this - the subjugation of women was for the purpose of property accumulation.

In the past, women had courtly love and affairs, whatever, if they were upper class, did as they pleased as poor women -but females have never been monogamous as part of their evolutionary physiology. Now we have "serial monogamy" with no fault divorce. As a species, we do not mate for life unless we choose to do so, and in studies of paternity, even "mated for life" females have children from other males, based upon DNA testing. They just don't announce it because it's not in their financial interest to do so...at least, again, that's what our genetic past tells us.

Some people think women have a lower sex drive (perceived) after marriage because they're bored, not because they have a lower sex drive. It's not that they don't want to have sex. They just don't want to have sex with the person they love who is the father of their children.

The penis has evolved in response to female physiological changes related to upright walking, aka bipedalism, with the human pelvic girdle serving to stabilize our upright walking and making it possible to bear the weight of, say, pregnancy at the same time.

You're welcome, guys.

[KittyWampus]

332. your definition of marriage is very euro-centric. I speak as someone who studied

anthropology.

Yes, women were considered chattel in many societies over time.

But marriage did not always mean woman monogamous and men free to roam.

I do appreciate your post and it's thoughtful tone.

My question would be, is marriage for love in any way superior to any other reason for marriage?

Have a great day, it's nice to find posts such as yours that add to the discussion.

[RainDog]

339. yeah, I thought my later descriptions could be seen that way

thanks for the reply and the kind words.

Engels and Marx based their ideas on early anthropological studies of Native Americans. Of course those ethnographies too, as we all know, were distorted by the European view of their status in society.

But they noted that the culture of the Onondaga, iirc, was more matrilineal - the males saw all the children in their community as "theirs" - and they also didn't have a big deal about private property as part of their culture. A priest tried to tell them this was sinful and the Onondaga man said the French were crazy because they only cared for the child they knew came from them.

That, to me, speaks to the cultural issue of property - are we part of a community, as a nation or are we all just supposed to, bloody teeth and claw, take what we can for ourselves and others be damned.

Engels traced the origin of property to the move to an agricultural society. This happened in the area of the middle east and north eastern Africa 10k y/o - before Europe was really populated and way before it had a culture that could match the sophistication of northern Africa and the middle east.

Prior to agriculture, Engels thought humans, as hunter/gathers, had more loosely maintained relationships - the point that, before property, women had their own sexual agency b/c their children were traced through her, not a male. As you know, in that situation, the maternal uncle is more important than the father, as far as bonds for long term survival, tho communities would've been so small that people interacted.

There are still tribes that practice hunter/gatherer ways and they are, overall more egalitarian, and in at least one in the Amazon, both women and men take multiples spouses, depending upon whether they want to or not. Nothing is coerced about such arrangements, everyone, male and female, hunt together, with nursing babies in tow - they hunt small prey, like most of our ancestors did too.

Anyway, again, thanks for the kindness. I think we may have had words in the past and if so, my apologies if I were rude.

As far as marriage for love as superior - well, of course I'm a product of my culture, so I find the idea of romantic love preferable. Whether it should always be tied to marriage is another question. Some people wonder if we don't place too many expectations on marriage, or have unrealistic expectations based upon some mythical past. Did you ever read The Way We Never Were, by Stephanie Cootnz? She pretty much demolishes any Republican idea of what was "traditional" - the tradition Republicans value has been in place only for the rich and only less than a century, and was more aspirational than actual.

[rocktivity]

147. I see porn as an inherent form of patriarchy

Last edited Sun May 4, 2014, 12:13 AM - Edit history (2)

because I also see it as an inherent form of prostitution.

Only the terms of their "labor versus ownership" differ.


rocktivity

[whathehell]

286. Absolutely. n/t

[RandySF]

199. Then how do we classify gay/lesbian porn?

[lumberjack_jeff]

161. An argument might be made...

that porn (or prostitution) is to sexuality as coal mining is to gardening.

I think that porn as a means to pay for college may be a rational expression of economic self-interest, and a perfectly legitimate choice to a person capable of their own agency, but I'm unconvinced that it's an expression of sexuality. Nor am I convinced that the patriarchy has any more to do with it than any other economically advantageous exploitation of ones sex appeal.

She's selling what someone will buy. There's no patriarchal memo that guys get instructing them to like bare naked ladies.

[BeyondGeography]

8. $60K/yr is the real obscenity

That and her slavery to the brand that comes along with it. Get ready for a lifetime of chasing your, um, tail, kid.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

32. +1

[FBaggins]

97. How many people can get in to Duke...

...but not into a decent but more affordable school?

[BeyondGeography]

142. My first thought as well...heaven forbid she goes to a state school

in whatever state she's from. The power of these school brands relative to their real-world value is, well, just one of those nauseating things. In my 30 years or so of work, where I went to school has come up close to zero times. And I don't know where anyone else I've ever worked with went to school either. I just got back from dinner with two colleagues I've known for a decade and I have no clue where they went to school and if they even have a four-year degree.

I know it matters in some professions and things are a little different now, but, wth, the money is absurd and the debt levels these kids are saddled with are just sad. Especially when America ultimately doesn't really care where you went to college, which is actually a good thing. You still have a legitimate chance to make a decent living with a degree from a decent school, lots of pluck and a little luck. Be kind, try hard, good things might just happen. That little lesson is supposed to cost you $250K over four years?

[Lonusca]

146. This is very well stated

I think there are a couple reasons "brand name" schools had a certain appeal. Sounds like you and I have been out there about the same amount of time.

Networking - Alumni helped each other out, schools had very strong programs to keep alum connected. And it was sort of a "pre-approval" on a resume. The guy went to Columbia - he must be top notch.

Thats really not the case anymore. Networking is completely different. People find each other and/or are introduced in all sorts of ways now. The premium placed on the brand of the school might pay off the first job or two out, but after that what you have done while working is what gets you advanced. They are still premium brands. Just maybe not worth as much as they used to be.

I had similar experiences as far as colleagues schools. After the first job or two - I really had no idea where people studied. I think I knew on the first couple because being recently out of college - you talked about it.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

388. +1 Especially since North Carolina is home

to one of the finest public universities in the nation.

[CFLDem]

207. +100

College is modern day slavery and means test.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

10. "On the contrary, doing pornography fulfills me."

You know, there are mentally disturbed people everywhere. The mentally disturbed can be men, women, or children. I had heard about this from someone that I know who attends Duke and it's been the topic of discussion among Duke students. This person who chose to do porn films said that she did not feel respected as a waitress, so she chose to do porn instead, and that she feels more respected now.

It is obvious that this person has serious issues, but there are many people who have serious issues. The overwhelming majority of people would not behave in this manner, and we should not consider the behavior of this person to be the healthy norm.

[snooper2]

12. LOL

I don't agree with this person at all, so she is crazy--


paging Bill Frist, paging Bill Frist!

[MadrasT]

14. Way out of line. What puts you in a position to judge this woman's mental health status?

I wouldn't make her choice, but I support her right to make it. And the choice she made does not automatically mean she "has serious issues".

[Mosby]

18. Now that I read more aboiut her she does seem a little off, but maybe it's just because she's a kid

Last edited Wed Feb 26, 2014, 03:27 PM - Edit history (2)

She says:

To be perfectly honest, I felt more degraded in a minimum wage, blue-collar, low paying, service job than I ever did doing porn.”

and yet:

She talked of her dismissal of sororities—“it’s a toxic environment”—political beliefs—“Republican, but I identify more as a libertarian”

https://m.dukechronicle.com/articles/2014/02/14/portrait-porn-star

From a video I found which I can't link to obviously she had an issue with cutting in the past, you can see the scars on her calf and shin area.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

56. Interesting. nt

[Packerowner740]

75. I didn't see any scars

But then again I dint think I was looking at her calf.

[TorchTheWitch]

201. Why do you believe these scars are the result of her being a cutter?

I have lots of scars particularly on my legs. None of them are from cutting but various accidents involving bad scrapes. Having been an outdoors type of person my whole life and enjoying scrabbling up and down craggy rock formations, running through woods with the dog, climbing trees, etc. shit happens.

And what exactly is a "front calf"? are you saying her shin? Crap, my shins are a mess of scars some 30 years old. If you got a look at my legs you'd think that no question I was "obviously" the most violent personally destructive cutter on earth.

I'm still trying to figure out why she's being called a porn "star". She isn't. She's just another two-bit internet part time porn actress of which there are thousands upon thousands. She's also ridiculously naive to think that telling someone would keep them from blabbing it all over and that those who knew would kiss her feet rather than ridicule her, but like so many others before her I believe that her telling was intended to get spread around. Is it right that she be ridiculed? No. And certainly not by those who watch porn, like it, and fawn over actual porn stars. She's got to be an idiot to imagine that anyone would find it to be even remotely glamorous and that she wouldn't be shamed and ridiculed.

She still hasn't figured that out with coming out publicly (and she still believed would be anonymously) wasn't going to prompt people to applaud her... she's still looking to be fawned over. Worse, once Duke finds out who she is they'll likely kick her out of school. And far worse than that, once she's done with school if she ever gets her degree she's marked herself and will have a very hard time either getting or keeping a "real" job. Employers just don't want to have ex-porn actors working for them.

She didn't go into this with any real thinking, and mostly that's probably due to the naivety of her age. We all do some pretty stupid stuff at that age we regret later once we gain some maturity, but this is going to be a issue that follows her the rest of her life and causes serious damage. Even what she's spending the money that she makes on shows her naivety. Sure, she's paying her tuition but dumping a load on expensive designer handbags when she should be banking that money for a Master's degree or to start a business or to invest, etc.

[Mosby]

290. Couple reasons

One, because several people at Duke that claim to know her have talked about it.

and two because I can see it, I have worked with cutters in the past, the scars are very distinctive.

This is the best screen cap I can do, they are actually a lot more visible in the video, she also has some nasty looking scars on her left upper, inner thigh.




Note how uniform and straight the cuts are, some longer than others.

[TorchTheWitch]

300. looks more like bad road rash to me

Scrapes usually are straight.

I wouldn't put any stock at all into what people that claim to know her have said. No way to know if they really know her or not or where the scars came from. It's just wrong to be spreading gossip about this person without knowing.

Further, I also think it's wrong to spread around her real work name or any other information about her since she's obviously not happy with how things turned out for her and wants her privacy. Spreading more information about her that makes it easy for anyone on the internet to find out who she is will only harm her future not to mention her psych. On DU there's a rule that we aren't allowed to post the private information about people whether they're ok with that info being made public or not. She's said she wants her privacy, and the OP you posted with the article about her uses a fake real name AND a fake work name. Have some respect for that and don't say things about her you don't KNOW to be true. Frankly, even if you did know it was true it's so disrespectful to be gossiping about a student that does some internet porn like MANY women do. It's really pretty creepy that you're even checking into who this girl is and such personal things about her. Why do you even care? It's weird that you posted the OP in the first place... what was that for? It's looking very much like you're interested in shaming this person.

[Mosby]

326. I edited that post yesterday

geez, keep up.

[TorchTheWitch]

440. So?

It's still there. Edits don't make the original go away. Neither does it explain why you have so much interest in this girl's personal life. Seriously, why the OP in the first place? So what if some young person in college is doing internet porn. What, you haven't noticed that there's thousands upon thousands of young people all over the internet doing the same thing? Why so much interest in this one person and their personal life and publicly gossiping about her? It's weird.

[Dorian Gray]

430. I do think

that it's in human nature for young people to ridicule her for being in porn. It's too bad that's their reaction. She's a human being, and deserving of respect.

I don't know why Duke would kick her out, though. It's not a religious institution, is it? Do they have a morality clause?

[alp227]

447. She considers herself “Republican, but I identify more as a libertarian”?

Haha I just remembered that Thom Hartmann often calls libertarians "Republicans who want to smoke dope and get laid." The Duke student confirms Thom is right!

[opiate69]

23. Seriously.. props when they're due.

[one_voice]

84. +1

[whathehell]

122. Sorry, but numerous studies show most sex workers were sexually abused as kids..

Try educating yourself before telling any one else who is "out of line".


https://www.google.com/search?q=majority+of+prostitutes+abused+as+children&sitesearch=#q=most+prostitutes+abused+as+children

[MadrasT]

202. You can't make a judgement about an individual

over the internet based on what "studies" show.

This has nothing to do with anybody's degree of "education". I am well aware of "studies' and the "studies" may be correct but you can't point at this woman and go "OOOOOH LOOK DAMAGED CRAZY GIRL BECAUSE PORN!!!11!" Nobody here has ANY WAY of knowing.

I do not believe it is appropriate to state that someone is obviously troubled, damaged, or crazy based on their sexual avtivity alone.

People who like to fuck are not mentally ill because they like to fuck.

People who do not like to fuck are not mentally ill because they don't like to fuck.

I don't like seeing information gleaned by "studies" being applied to individuals by nonprofessionals in nnprofessional settings. And I absolutely hate hearing people judging other people's mental health based on their level of sexual activity and their method of expressing that activity.

Also, people who are mentally unwell deserve support and compassion not judgement and scorn.

I stand by my response and go "meh" to "studies" when people fling them out as evidence inappropriately.

You could say that studies show most porn actresses are mentally disturbed, but you can't turn that around and say this specific woman is mentally disturbed because she is a porn actress. It is a logical fallacy.

Look, I am a post third wave feminist who hates "sex positive" bullshit and thinks porn is probably harmful in a lot of cases, especially to many of the people making it... but the judgement Sarah I. made above is bullshit.

[whathehell]

277. Riiight...So studies are worthless because no one can always "know" the individual?

Oh my...I guess an academic superstar you're not.

As for the dodge about this being about "people who like to fuck", good try, but this is obviously beyond that.

I know lots of people who "like to fuck"...I'm one of them, in fact...Like the vast majority,

however, I'm a tad more discriminating about my partners and my privacy.

As for that long list of things you "don't like", Maddie, I guess that's just too bad.

because Sarah and I are just as entitled to post our opinions as you...Remember?

[jeff47]

382. No, the studies tell you about the overall group, not one individual.

Last edited Thu Feb 27, 2014, 12:17 AM - Edit history (1)

Let's say a study tells you 60% of porn actresses are mentally ill.

That could be the basis for, say, creating support infrastructure targeting porn actresses. Because you're dealing with the overall group, and can make a reasonable prediction that out of 100 stars, you'll find 60 mentally ill. If you happen to find 58 or 62, that wouldn't be surprising. If you found 6 or 97, that would be surprising.

What that study can't tell you is whether or not an individual porn actress is mentally ill. She could be in the 60% that's mentally ill, or she could be in the 40% that isn't. And that's still true even if the numbers in the study are very lopsided - that individual could be in the rare group.

[whathehell]

419. Of course, but the problem is, no one here, to my knowledge, KNOWS this individual, so

why would you assume she's in the minority rather than the majority?...Would you do that

with any other unknown person or quantity?...I'm guessing no, and by the way, the numbers

on child sex abuse of prostitutes is more like 75 to 90 percent, nothing as close as 60-40.

[jeff47]

421. Because we don't know this individual.

We can't assume she's mentally ill because porn is bad.

And by the way, the numbers on child sex abuse of prostitutes is more like 75 to 90 percent, nothing as close as 60-40.

And if she were a prostitute, that would be the relevant metric. But porn results in different statistics. (Not to mention there's methodology problems with the 75 to 90 percent studies - they didn't work terribly hard at getting a good sample.)

But even if we think the 90% figure is accurate, she can still be in the remaining 10%. We can't just assume this individual has mental health issues.

[whathehell]

422. I'm sorry, but I see no reason why one can't..

As I said, sans knowing them, would you bet on the MINORITY chance were it another person or quantity?

It's not a matter of "porn being bad"...It's that it's usually bad FOR you if you are a female IN it.

As for porn resulting in different statistics, do you have a link for those?.

I'm sorry, I feel I CAN assume she has damaged self-esteem since the majority do. I don't see what's

wrong with that..I think a lot of men are NOT open to the evidence because if they did, they'd have

to feel guilty about getting off on the exploitation of abused people, and, in their own self-interest,

they'd rather not.

P.S. Read Linda Lovelace's story sometime, or Tracy Lord's...Neither have anything good to say about

their experiences in the porn industry.

[Ticktock]

19. Based on your post

Based on your post I hereby diagnose you as mentally ill with a heavy flavor or narcissism and an ego-centric view of the world. This resulted in you thinking you have a valid reason or background to judge the mental stability of another human being based on a 1,000 character post on an internet forum.

Please turn in your guns and check yourself into the nearest hospital and tell them some guy on DU sent you.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

34. I see that you just joined DU. nt

[sibelian]

55. I see that that is clearly of no consequence.

The assessment is fairly accurate, really.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

57. Oh really. lol nt

[Comrade Grumpy]

64. As accurate as yours above. n/t

[Vinnie From Indy]

91. Sibel Edmonds is a grifter

Just thought I would throw that in.

[In_The_Wind]

214. Welcome to DU ~ Ticktock

Oh, and about your post:

[marions ghost]

21. If we took this to be the healthy norm

then it leads to some logical conclusions that are hard to imagine.

One commenter on the statement asked--"if she didn't need the money, would she have done it?" -- That's the relevant question to me.

Of course I don't agree with the public shaming. I guess it's her life and maybe she will survive just fine. But maybe not. A lot of people take risks at an early age they later regret. The young and naive are exploited in so many ways. Doesn't make it right. I don't see much diff between selling drugs and selling your body to make a buck--both risky and put you into contact with some questionable characters. I worry about her physical safety as well as her mental state.

[Sheldon Cooper]

22. I'm not sure it's fair to say she's mentally disturbed simply because she decided to

do porn in order to pay for college. However, although she may feel empowered now, I think this will come back to bite her in many ways in the future. There is still a stigma associated with that profession, for better or worse.

I'm much too old for it now, but when I was younger I would have probably sold one or more of my eggs to make money. That probably wouldn't have been a wise decision either, but $60K/year is a lot of money to pay for school.

[MineralMan]

24. That's a strange, strange judgment to make.

College students do all sorts of things to finance their education. Some college women are waitresses. Others are strippers. Some are baristas. Others are in porn. Some are retail clerks. Others work as call girls in the evening.

None are necessarily "mentally disturbed," as you put it. I think it's a terrible shame that it is impossible to get a degree without either putting yourself deeply in debt or doing something that is demoralizing or demeaning. Different people choose different paths. I make no judgments about them as individuals because of their choices.

Why would I?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

33. They sure do - I live in a college town. They work in restaurants, at the library...

at Macy's, at all kinds of normal work. Prostitution and porn are degrading, and unless someone is at wit's end and their kids are starving, they have to be from a seriously disturbed background to say it's respectable work, and to undertake it.

[MineralMan]

35. And some work in the sex industry, too.

I've lived in several college towns, and have attended three. In each, I've met women who were working in the sex industry. In all of those capacities I mentioned in my reply.

Far more work at the kind of jobs you're calling "normal." But wherever there is a college or university, there are young women paying their way through college doing "unrespectable" work, as you put it.

Do I think that's a good idea for them? I don't. It's a risky sort of way to make a living. However, I don't say that they are "mentally disturbed," as you do. I've known a few of those women, and they were not disturbed. A couple were friends of mine, so I knew them fairly well.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

41. If one is a famous porn star (as this one) one is likely to be found out

And if one is a prostitute in the same locale of the university, one is likely to be found out.

As for mentally disturbed. I think people in the sex industry are mentally disturbed, and tend to be individuals with a great many problems, and tremendous issues. Dr. Alan Schore, a neuroscientist, and Dr. Drew Pinsky, and countless other experts in the field have confirmed that people in the sex industries tend to be individuals who suffered a high incidence of sexual abuse. To say that people that go into these jobs are normal individuals, is to not comprehend the result of sexual abuse and the way it affects the brain and emotions.

[MineralMan]

42. What I think is that you may well not be competent to judge

the mental state of people you have never met. That's what I think.

I imagine there are some in that industry who have mental issues. I also imagine that there are some who are perfectly normal. I'm not a mental health professional, and am merely basing my opinion on the few people I know who have been or were in that industry.

How many people in the sex industry do you know?

As for being found out, I'm sure that's always an issue to one degree or another. My college friend who worked as a call girl, though, wasn't known for that. Nobody connected with the university knew about it, and her clients were not in any way involved with the university, either. She told me about it because she trusted me as a friend. We talked about it.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

48. What I think is that you have not researched the topic. nt

[whathehell]

70. Thank you. I agree with you, and I just love hearing from all these men getting huffy about

your supposed "judgment".

How many of them know what it's like to be on the other side of the double standard

where one is called all sorts of foul names for their sexuality, e.g. "whore", "slut", etc.

I wonder how often or how vigorously they "defended" the females they knew over the years

who were labeled as such by their buddies.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

99. Thanks! I think the problem is that too many U.S. men are obsessed by porn...

and they don't care much whether the porn actresses were sexually abused, why they're degrading themselves in that manner, how it will affect them in the future, how it will ruin their life with their public "exposure," and what it will do to their life. All they care about is their love of porn, the chance to glare, get a peek, and that's all folks. The rest can go to hell. And so anyone that even remotely, in the most minimal way criticizes porn (such as I just did), becomes their personal, most heinous enemy #1 because they take it so personally, and see it as a personal criticism of their private and public habits and obsessions, as if others were pointing the finger at their private obsession and threatening to take away something that has become, like air, so very important to them.

But the fact is, that porn does damage the people involved, and that it attracts damaged people, and makes their already messed up lives an even uglier little mess.

[OilemFirchen]

133. My S.O. and I love watching porn together.

After the Lithium has set in, of course.

[joeglow3]

183. One third of porn users are women.

[whathehell]

280. You are quite welcome. Of course, it's about male "prerogatives", and their hostility

toward any SUGGESTION that those be limited, regardless of what harm might come

to the women involved, or to women in general as to the effect it might have on perceptions

of their value and rights as equal citizens.

There was actually a lawsuit brought up by anti-porn activist Andrea Dworkin (now deceased)

and University of Michigan professor and Author, Catherine McKinnon in Minnesota

against porn (as opposed to what many term "erotica&quot on FOURTH Amendment grounds

They said that porn was not "speech" and shouldn't be protected, especially since, even if it was,

it's outweighed by women's fourth amendment rights to equality.

The judge ruled against it, and his comments were so blatantly based on male privilege, that one can hardly

believe it...I'll definitely research this case and get his words shortly, I'm just not able to right now...Good talking

to you, Sarah...I'm sorry for the delay.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

118. Seriously?

In a thread where you and your buddy are declaring this woman mentally ill?

But as long as you can project what "really" goes on the minds of other posters who haven't even hinted at any such thing, it's okay?

The chutzpah of some people....but par for the course with you.

[whathehell]

120. Yes, seriously..

Maybe you and your men's group "buddies" should do a little research.

https://www.google.com/search?q=majority+of+prostitutes+abused+as+children&sitesearch=#q=most+prostitutes+abused+as+children

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

124. What does that have to do with this woman as an individual?

Nothing, of course. That was rhetorical.

You don't like what she said, so you're throwing a fit all over this thread and marginalizing her by declaring her mentally ill. It's pretty sad, really.

[whathehell]

127. I don't know her as an "individual" and neither do you, so maybe read the research

even if you "don't like" what it says.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

188. So by that logic, we shall never see you hold out an individual's story as proof of anything....

....unless you personally know them....

Got it. I'll be sure to hold you to it.

[whathehell]

269. So by your logic, all Studies are FALSE, because one can't "know" every individual in them, LOL?

Good luck with that, genius.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

271. Hmmm....maybe I should start slow for you....

You can choose to look up the word logic or genius in the dictionary.

I promise, neither will have a picture of you next to it based on your last couple mind numbing posts.

And you still don't know the difference between a Google search and a study, by the way.

[whathehell]

274. Hmmm...Maybe I should refer you to a remedial education class..

because I do know the difference between a "google search" and a study, I just thought you were bright enough

to pick out a few of the many included in the search -- My mistake.

[whathehell]

285. OMG...I've just been kicked out of the Whiney White Guy, um, "Men's Group". LOL

Oh, the Tragedy....

[Comrade Grumpy]

66. You're citing Dr. Drew? Ask him about all those dead celebrities he rehabilitated.

What a quack.

[Dorian Gray]

431. While

I agree with you about not citing him because he's a famewhore....

I'm not surprised that a number of the celebs who went to celeb rehab have died. (I was really sad about Rodney King. He truly seemed to want to recover.) Addicts, especially addicts of the substances that they were dealing with, have a high recidivism rate, and it's not shocking that they would relapse. That's not his fault.

But, yeah, the public portrayal of their train wreck "recovery" was abhorrent. I was fascinated by the first season (there are addictin issues in my broader family), but it devolved into a drama fest.

[Blue_Adept]

27. Really?

The fact that someone enjoys something you don't makes them disturbed.

That says a lot.

But hey, we get plenty of people that have said watching it makes you a disturbed person because some supposed percentage of it is "violent" - even though we can't agree on what violence is in it.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

31. Someone that enjoys public sexual degradation is in need of psychological treatment nt

[marions ghost]

38. I have to agree this is degrading

The following compilation by a writer at the student newspaper details a little about what the student engaged in--ie. what was done to her in the film. It seems humiliating and exploitative to me. I don't know how people can support anybody being brutalized as normal and cool, even if it's paid extremely well. Not really healthy entertainment... Most people would definitely not allow this crossing of boundaries themselves, so then it's OK to watch?

http://m.dukechronicle.com/articles/2014/02/14/portrait-porn-star

[Sarah Ibarruri]

50. I agree. It's like the Roman Coliseums. Yay! Someone is degrading herself publicly! MORE! MORE!

Ridiculous reaction to what this woman is doing to herself. And ridiculous reaction to the absurd comment that it's respectful for herself to do this to herself.

[penultimate]

39. She doesn't appear to view it as public degradation though

There are plenty of people who don't feel performing sex acts for others to view is degrading. You could do a search of any porn site for home made videos, and you'll find many couples who film themselves with the intent of sharing their activities. Are you suggesting all of them are mentally ill just because they don't have the same feelings about sex as you? Does it only become degrading if they earn money in the process?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

44. It has an effect on the brain, doing porn, prostitution, etc.

In fact, everything one does has an effect, and such degradation, unless one has a tremendous emotional and psychological disconnection with one's body (which in itself is an emotional disturbance), has negative effects, and most important it causes damage to one's self-respect and one's image of one's body.

I honestly think that to applaud and cheer someone who is doing harm to herself, is wrong. It's no different than went on in the Roman Coliseums, where people cheered as these people were getting hurt and killed.

[penultimate]

60. So you believe that anyone who has sex in front of a camera is harming themselves?

I'm failing to see how porn itself harmful to the brain. I can see how certain situations and environments that lead to prostitution and porn can be harmful, but not a blanket statement that it's all harmful. I may be wrong, but I've never seen any compelling evidence to suggest so.

[sibelian]

62. So we have you in one corner saying engaging porn causes "an effect on the brain"

similar to being .... a gladiator in a Roman Coliseum..... and somebody who actually engages in the production of pron who says pretty much the exact opposite.

Why are we going to believe you?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

159. You have yet to provide a thought of value to this conversation, yet you question...

something which psychologists have already explained. Fascinating. In any case, my conversation with you is over. Thanks anyway.

[opiate69]

126. Do you have any sources to back up the claim about the effect it has on the brain?

Bonus points if whatever evidence you cite can't be traced back to "Dr." Judith Reismann, et al.

[whathehell]

98. Saying otherwise would hardly fit her meme..

Please.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

156. This is equivalent to saying, "the homeless like being homeless," or, "drug addicts enjoy being drug

addicts." And of course, unless one is a Republican or a Libertarian, neither of those make any sense.

[penultimate]

181. I don't see how they are equivalent at all...

Perhaps you can explain how they are similar, because I don't see the similarities.

[Whiskeytide]

235. You make some interesting points...

... and I agree with some of them. Statistically, sex workers do have childhood abuse issues at an increased frequency, and many have mental health issues which could be related to their work, or which could have been the reason they sought out the work in the first place.

But the problem with statistics and studies is that they are generalized, and sometimes don't fit the individual we seek to apply them to. For example - statistically "the homeless don't like being homeless". But aren't there sure to be examples of people with wanderlust who do it because its what they want to do? People who backpack across Europe. Bikers who travel the country. Retirees who sell their home and buy a camper to see the country. Such wanderers are certainly statistical deviations, and are not the norm. But they are technically "homeless" by design, and seem to like it.

Perhaps this young woman is the statistical anomaly. I think we might give her the benefit of the doubt, and resist judging her based upon generalized statistics.

It would be interesting to see where she is and what she's doing in 30 years, though. How might her actions now affect her down the road?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

246. You're right. Exceptions prove the rule, however. Let me give you an example using cancer

There are people who suffer lung cancer for many years, and who are never treated because it is not diagnosed, and the individuals died of an old age from a different issue. These exceptions were found to be the case when doing a study of cadavers. These are exceptions, however. The majority of lung cancer does affect the body so adversely that it ends up diagnosed, treated, and often has a very bad end.

So while, yes, there are exceptions in absolutely everything, the exceptions does not negate that there tends to be a rule.

Republicans are in love with using exceptions (statistical anomalies, as you correctly call them) to support their points. For example, Republicans might provide the case of 1 homeless person who was able to get out of homelessness and succeed in life as the reason why the homelessness can make it and if they don't, it's because they're lazy, and not because they suffer from myriad problems.

I have never been a fan of exceptions, because they are so often used to deceive.

I agree it would be interesting to see what she is doing in 30 years. A friend of my first husband had a friend who became a "call girl" (high class prostitute) and made excellent money. This was 25 or so years ago. My first hubby recently told me that this woman suffered a huge downfall and is now suffering from chronic depression and bipolar disorder, and is on disability. Again, this is only one case but I find it interesting because my first hubby and his friends had found it so clever back then that she had chosen to sell her body to advance her acquisitive power. Whether her choice caused her depression, or vice versa - whether she went into it to begin with because she already had emotional issues, that I don't know.

[lumberjack_jeff]

289. *She* said she likes doing porn.

The slogan "trust women" obviously has some exceptions.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

297. Oh I'm sure she's going to say she hates it tremendously and that's why she does it nt

[Warren DeMontague]

372. She took the time to proactively state her point of view.

I think claiming that anyone who makes a statement you don't agree with must not really mean it is a bit absurd.

[lumberjack_jeff]

383. So your primary evidence that she hates porn is the fact that she says she doesn't.

Further, those who accept her words at face value are misogynists... unlike true and proper feminists who dismiss her as hysterical.

Reading this subthread makes clear that you have no standing to call me a troll.

[Kurska]

135. Called an exhibition fetish.

It is also called someone having sexual interests that you do not share. There is nothing wrong with it.

Perhaps you will one day learn these things.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

154. You clearly know nothing about this, but that doesn't seem to stop you from commenting

I strongly urge you to read carefully before commenting, lest you speak out of ignorance.

[LadyHawkAZ]

43. How very 19th Century patriarchy of you

"Nymphomaniac! Off to the asylum with you!"

[Sarah Ibarruri]

47. For someone who posts in the Sexual Assault Survivors groups, you certainly

can switch sides easily, and view this woman as doing something mentally healthy.

[LittleBlue]

53. What does sexual assault have to do with porn? nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

58. Plenty. Workers in the sex industry tend to have been sexually abused. Google it. nt

[LittleBlue]

61. But she just gave an interview in which she

unequivocally gives consent. It's clearly not sexual assault.

So on what basis do you link LadyHawk's comment to sexual assault?

[LadyHawkAZ]

74. "Google it"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/porn-stars-and-the-naked-truth-8348388.html

"Some descriptions of actresses in pornography have included attributes such as drug addiction, homelessness, poverty, desperation and being victims of sexual abuse," they said. "Some have made extreme assertions, such as claiming that all women in pornography were sexually abused as children. Stereotypes of those involved in adult entertainment have been used to support or condemn the industry and to justify political views on pornography, although the actual characteristics of actresses are unknown because no study on this group of women has been conducted."

The psychologists compared data taken from 177 adult entertainment actresses with a sample of women matched for age, marital status and other factors. The actresses, all of whom had been paid to work on at least one X-rated movie, ranged in age from 18 to 50, with an average career in the industry of 3.5 years. More than one-third were either married or in a serious relationship, and 44 per cent were single.

One of the main claims by commentators on the industry has been that actresses have frequently experienced sexual abuse in childhood, but the results show no statistically significant difference between the two groups of women.

[LittleBlue]

76. Ah, I see

I just found her odd statement that you "switch sides" somewhat libelous. As if you've jumped the fence from being a sexual assault advocate to... something she's implying is the other side. Pro rape?

Very odd

[LadyHawkAZ]

87. Pretty much

There's a school of thought, seen frequently on DU under the guise of feminism, that there can be no consent in sex work (for women only) because the presence of cash damages our tiny female minds and renders them incapable. The implication of course is that it's all rape, since that's what sex without consent is.

The intent is to devalue any woman who is sexually active outside of the patriarchal norm. Because feminism or something.

[LadyHawkAZ]

72. Why do you assume all survivors are anti-sex?

Had you read my story in there, you'd know I not only survived but recovered.

Had you read any of my other posting history, you'd know I'm also a former sex worker and have myself said many of the same things this woman did.

Nice of you to set yourself up in judgement of other women, though.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

100. You surprise me. I thought survivors were anti-abuse and would not abuse themselves...

nor put themselves up as on an auction block, humiliated, and further sexually abused.

Further, how is porn, sex? Porn is an abuse of women, period, end of story. Next topic?

[LadyHawkAZ]

108. ...which, if true, totally blows your theory that sex workers are incompetent

because they were all abuse victims as children. Whoopsie.

How about this: abuse survivors, as adults, are just as capable as any other adult of determining their level of comfort with their sexuality and don't need your help? Likewise, you are free to not have sex if you feel it is abusive, because you are a (presumably) competent adult who can determine her own level of comfort? How's that work for you?

I really don't care if you think it is abuse of women or not. That only applies to you.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

157. No, it puts in doubt your presence as a positive force in such forums

Unless you have a better explanation than what you have already provided.

[LadyHawkAZ]

165. LOL whatever

You're entitled to your opinion, bless your heart.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

166. May I recommend you review your posts and where you posted them. Goodbye. nt

[LadyHawkAZ]

193. You may do whatever you want

Why would you need my permission? I'm still going to ignore your recommendation, but you're welcome to do it.

It's still not abuse just because you say so, and your Bill Frist diagnosis is still wrong on every possible level. Trying to deflect from it by pretending to question my competency isn't going to work.

[liberalhistorian]

251. So people who were sexually abused

as children cannot go on to heal and move forward as adults and actually enjoy sex and make their own decisions about it without being judged and put in a box labeled "the only way SA survivors are supposed to act and think regarding sex"? If they DO enjoy sex as adults, then they're somehow "damaged" because they aren't responding in the way that you and other "all sex is bad for women" types think they should?

You DO realize that women enjoy sex and are allowed to do so? You DO realize that they are allowed to make their own decisions about sex, including enjoying as much as they want? You DO realize that it's actually quite patriarchal to claim that women don't and shouldn't enjoy sex and that they're being "exploited" if they do and if they choose to have multiple partners?

This SA survivor who enjoys a healthy sexual relationship with her husband finds your views offensive and, actually, quite old-fashioned and patriarchal.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

257. Children who were sexually abused, and go on to degrade themselves

Have not healed.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

233. Huh? Your response made absolutely no sense whatsoever. I believe you were responding to the wrong

post.

[cinnabonbon]

197. Sadly,

some survivors will gravitate towards abusive relationships, because it's the only thing they know. It's sad, but it's not uncommon.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

230. You're right. I had read that abused people are too often found in abusive situations...

but I wonder if they're even aware. Horrible.

[closeupready]

309. Yes. It makes a certain kind of sense, but is tragic even so.

[snooper2]

225. so when is the last time you enjoyed some porn?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

229. I don't. If I want sex, I have it with a human, not a DVD.

I don't need to go buy a DVD and pretend I'm with someone. In fact, the very idea of locking myself up in a room (if that's what porn fans do) with a porn DVD, watching naked individuals shtooping one another for the public as their career prospect, and then having to stimulate myself to THAT, is rather, shall we call it, repulsive? Certainly an effect the complete opposite of you.

[ecstatic]

264. What if someone is single and isn't into casual sex?

Either way, there's a ton of judgment oozing from your posts.

[Blue_Adept]

265. Abstinence only.

They should just remain chaste and pure until they're in a fully committed relationship.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

266. Are DVDs of "somebody doing it" necessary? LOL! Just askin' ... nt

[ecstatic]

296. I don't think people do the DVD thing anymore. I could be wrong.

There's this thing called the Internet...

[Sarah Ibarruri]

299. You're right. They simply get online daily to view it. nt

[whathehell]

362. They can always masturbate...

As for her judgement...So what?...Everybody on this forum "judges" something at sometime, and anyway,

she hasn't called her "bad" or "evil", she thinks she's probably psychologically damaged, and I agree.

You don't like her POV?...I guess that's where you call a "tough shitsky".

[ecstatic]

376. Oh... so people can masturbate as long as no porn is involved?

I got the impression that she's against masturbation AND porn (note the emphasis on having sex with a human), but whatever.

[NaturalHigh]

279. Actually, as far as what you just wrote, I agree with you.

It doesn't offend me if others like it, though, and I don't call people who participate in it mentally ill.

[snooper2]

308. you ever get accused of having a superiority complex?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

311. I hope not. lol I just get angry when I see people humiliating his/her self, and others applauding

I'm actually quite sweet, or so I've been told.

[alp227]

314. "how is porn, sex? Porn is an abuse of women, period, end of story."

wow do you not understand what the definition of pornography IS?

seriously does DU allow people to repeat Andrea Dworkin's tired, discredited talking points? there's a reason Ed Meese collaborated with the sex-negative feminists.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

327. Porn is definitely sex-for-pay, as is prostitution. As for "sex-POSITIVE" feminists....

The history of sex-positive feminists is very interesting. These were Libertarian (that is, right wing women, as Libertarians are right wingers) who were part of the backlash against feminism in the 80s. And it should come as no surprise to anyone that it began in the 80s, right alongside Ronald Reagan and the right wing attacks on the U.S. which have lasted to this very day.

"Sex-positive" feminists are precisely that, Libertarian females whose intention is to promote the degraded-female-as-affirmative and positive and a good, healthy type of titillation. For whom?

[alp227]

343. OK, so simple question. Do you believe casual sex is moral or not?

I've always though "sex positive" had a POV dissenting from the religiously conservative ideal that sex should be for procreating families.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

353. I believe sex is part of our joy in life, but not for pay, and not as a method of

making oneself a sexual clown or a sexual servant.

As for "sex positive" (which has nothing positive about it), women have been used for sex services since time immemorial, and have been forced to humiliate themselves in that manner. I think it's just as bad for women to degrade THEMSELVES by selling sex and by making themselves sex servants, providing sex services for $, for desperate attention, etc. Women should not be sex servants any more. Women should enjoy sex but not for purposes of allowing others to degrade them, or to degrade themselves.

And just in case you're wondering if I think people need to be married to have sex, no, I certainly don't.

[whathehell]

366. Thanks for the history lesson..Those supposedly "sex positive" feminists were Libertarians/RWingers.

[Comrade Grumpy]

63. Yes, there are mentally disturbed people everywhere.

[one_voice]

82. Serious face palm...

WTH?!?!

It is obvious that this person has serious issues, but there are many people who have serious issues. The overwhelming majority of people would not behave in this manner, and we should not consider the behavior of this person to be the healthy norm.

[phil89]

101. Could you point to the

empirical evidence that mental disturbance (of what kind?) leads to doing porn? Or this just more stigma inducing nonsense?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

103. I posted some

but as you're on a computer, you're welcome to google and research it yourself

[whathehell]

119. I'm pointing to it..

Most studies show that the overwhelming number of prostitutes were sexually abused as children.


https://www.google.com/search?q=majority+of+prostitutes+abused+as+children&sitesearch=#q=most+prostitutes+abused+as+children

[cthulu2016]

104. It is obvious this person has serious issues

[whathehell]

365. Thank you.....n/t

[OilemFirchen]

109. Here's a mentally disturbed person...

who looks like a porn star



and agrees with you.

[whathehell]

128. Christine O'Donnel "looks like a porn star"?

RIIIIIIGHT...

[Blue_Adept]

129. Everyone looks like a porn star.

Because there is no singular "porn" look.

I remember a recent study done of like the top 200 stars out there in the mainstream side that wanted to see if they were all the stereotypical blonde types. Turns out 75% or so were brunette and the blondes were a pretty small number.

But with the way things work since the Internet boom, there's a wide range of interests out there with who watches, who performs and what people are into. It's just as varied as humanity itself - because a solid sampling of society puts itself out there regularly.

[whathehell]

136. Oh...okay...whatever..

a "solid sampling"?

.Well, I guess that's all you've got when you can't say a "majority".

[alp227]

318. ...and a jury kept this 1-5?

YOUR COMMENTS

the "mentally disturbed" and "porn star" remarks are rude, insensitive, misogynistic, and bigoted against people with mental health issues, even if we disagree with Christine O'Donnell's politics. Calling ANY woman a "porn star" should not be tolerated on DU.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:14 PM, and voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Don't know why this alerted on. Christine O'Donnell should never be defended on a Democratic website.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This appears to be a clumsy attempt to highlight the judgmental language used by the prior poster.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Seriously? "Porn star" wasn't bad enough?

[Kurska]

132. Slut shaming

[Sarah Ibarruri]

149. Oh, "slut" is SUCH a lovely word! You are quite a piece of work, aren't you? nt

[Kurska]

153. You can't be serious

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slut-shaming

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2010/04/04/what-is-slut-shaming/

[Sarah Ibarruri]

155. Our "conversation" has been terminated. I think I've learned sufficiently

about you, and there's nothing else I need to know. Goodbye.

[Kurska]

160. Okay farewell

[snooper2]

226. I get it now, you are just trolling everybody here

Good job!

[whathehell]

288. It's still an ugly word, and while I champion their cause, I think the name is misguided

It implies that yes, some women ARE sluts (the word itself is a pejorative) but we

should not "shame" them for it. It's an odd way to fight that double-standard based slur.

[Kurska]

312. "It implies that yes, some women ARE sluts" I disagree

My view of it is that the word states that people are shaming women as "sluts". Not that "sluts" are being shamed. Personally I think slut is an ugly word for a woman who seeks the same sexual experiences and opportunities that men in our society are expected to.

Regardless of the word, I couldn't agree with the underlying context more. No one ever should be made to feel shamed or degraded because of their decision to seek consensual sexual experiences.

[whathehell]

361. Fine, but I think you're wrong..

I think they should have worded it differently.

[liberalhistorian]

253. You obviously have no understanding

of the real meaning of that term. It's used to describe those who shame women for the "crime" of actually enjoying sex, it is not a pejorative term against women.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

256. The term, "slut" should not be used, and yes, I'm familiar with it. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

141. .

Seems like people have "noted your ID" too.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

150. My ID, Sarah Ibarruri? It's a lovely name. nt

[Gravitycollapse]

162. Conjuring up fictional mental illness is a bullshit, intellectually lazy argument.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

164. I'd wager (and win) that the most ardent applauders of porn stars, are habitual porn users

And their habit is such that they have no time nor any desire to view porn stars as human beings who (for psychological reasons, usually being sexual abuse of some sort) degrade themselves due to a disconnection between their self-esteem and emotions.

Those "fans" of porn who feel they can't function without porn, are incapable of viewing the damaging aspects of porn upon women, because, like oxycontin, porn has become an addiction, and they need the "high" it provides them, or they can't get by. I would not at all be surprised if porn "fans" get more of a high through porn *because* it involves the degradation of women. And absolutely they will view an attack on porn as a personal attack because they would feel terribly vulnerable without the ability to use porn daily. They need that DVD nearby they can just pop in and feel reeally strong and manly.

[Gravitycollapse]

167. There is a distinct difference between saying pornography is wrong...

And calling a porn star mentally ill for enjoying being a porn star. You can't just call anyone you disagree with mentally ill. That kind of quackery doesn't fly here.


You clearly aren't aware of this but, historically, the myth of nymphomania and hypersexuality is misogynist hogwash.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

168. No, I disagree completely with you, on every count.

I think the rampant addiction to porn (as a tool to feel worthwhile, to feel manly, to feel wanted, etc.) is at the heart of why there are some in here applaudomg this female porn star and all porn stars. And their degrading themselves is one of the fundamental reasons why porn is so addictive to those for whom it is an addiction. And it is at the heart of why they'll feel threatened personally if someone points any of this out.

Applauding and thrilling in seeing porn stars is no different from Roman spectators who watched spectacles at the Roman coliseums, standing up to cheer upon seeing someone wounded, and getting quite a nice high from it.

[Gravitycollapse]

169. Popular pornography is an extremely destructive force.

But you stepped off the cliff when you suggested that merely being a porn star makes you mentally ill.

Choose your words wisely. Calling those you disagree with mentally ill is an incredibly intellectually dishonest practice. And it has historical significance in marginalizing abject populations.

Not everything that is socially or sexually destructive is born of or leads to mental illness. Even 1950s psychoanalysts are rolling their eyes at your claims.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

170. The sexually abused are overrepresented among the workers in the sex industries, from porn, to

prostitution, to all of them. I didn't pull this out from under my hat. Why the hell would I do that? It's been documented, there have been studies, there is statistics, and why the hell would I even be here if I were not aware of that? Just for fun? Sex workers are individuals who have ISSUES. It is not normal, good, or positive to work in the sex industry, by any stretch of anyone's imagination, and attempts to make it seem like, "Oh it's just another regular job!" are doing it (as I already said) because they WANT to defend their daily use of porn, and their addiction to porn and the high it brings them because these women degrade themselves on the screen.

[Gravitycollapse]

172. Again, saying it's not normal or healthy is NOT the same as saying it is a sign of mental illness.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

173. Then we'll agree to disagree, but we're disagreeing because you have an opinion which

goes completely against studies and what psychologists and neuroscientists have already known.

[Gravitycollapse]

174. You're so factually incorrect it's making everyone in this thread dizzy.

Being a porn star or a consumer of pornography is not synonymous with being mentally ill. Despite your outlandish, totally baseless claims to the contrary.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

175. Suit yourself. You're far far more informed than scientists, psychologists, and just

about anyone else.

[Gravitycollapse]

176. Show me one peer reviewed study stating that consuming porn makes one mentally ill.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

177. As I said before, do your own research. I'm not here to serve you and teach you

what you should be researching yourself.

[Gravitycollapse]

178. I just laughed out loud. You have nothing. Support the claims you make.

Or stop making them.

[whathehell]

373. No, dear, not everyone, and please -- Where are all your supposed "facts" that would discredit hers?

Most of the naysayers here, yawn, are males who have a decided SELF interest in defending porn

and the "health" of it's actors. They love their porn, feel ENTITLED to it, and are closed to ANY

information that might lead them to view it as a bad thing for women, however legitimate the argument.

[Gravitycollapse]

379. I don't have to discredit that which has been asserted without credit.

Isn't that a mind blowing way to perceive reality? That in order to believe in something one must first have evidence?

I don't have to discredit his or her claims. They are asserted without evidence and are thus functionally no different from a claim that is incorrect. That is how confirmation works.

As far as my own stance on pornography, if you've bothered to read essentially ANY post I've made in this thread or ANY other post I've ever made in any other thread on the subject of pornography, you would realize that I am a functional sex-negativist who sees popular pornography as exploitive and violent against women.

That, however, does not mean I think anyone who watches or participates in pornography is mentally ill, an addict or in possession of "serious issues." The gulf between believing popular pornography to be destructive and anyone who is near it in any fashion to be mentally ill is IMMENSE.

By the way, I don't personally know you so I do not appreciate the condescending tone. Please do not use terms like "dear" in the future, thank you. My name on here is Gravitycollapse and if you wish to use pronouns "sir/mam" are the appropriate course of action.

[RBStevens]

386. Granted I have not been following this sub-thread closely but

"Being a porn star or a consumer of pornography is not synonymous with being mentally ill." (bold mine of course)

I'm pretty sure that it was you who brought the consumer aspect into this.

[Gravitycollapse]

387. The poster discusses porn "addiction" and the "serious issues" of porn consumers.

And by porn addiction that poster means essentially anyone who regularly views pornography. He or she compares it to oxycontin addiction.

That's like calling someone who drinks a beer every day an alcoholic.

[RBStevens]

390. Ah, then I will beg your pardon on that.

However, some people who drink a beer every day could be considered an alcoholic depending on how that beer effects their relationships with people around them. I've known more than one person who with just one beer mixing with their brain chemistry became entirely unpleasant to be around. Likewise I've known people who drink quite a lot who are perfectly fine to be around - they may be slowly killing themselves but they are not being abusive or otherwise dangerous to others.

But there are studies (no, I will not look them up for you but I have seen them in the past) that do show a change in brain chemistry in consumers of pornography.

[Gravitycollapse]

394. And running every day alters brain chemistry. Are daily runners now addicts too?

The answer to everything we don't like is not to label it perverse or sick or capable of being enjoyed only by the addicted and/or mentally ill.

That just shows a gross misunderstanding of what it means to be an addict or a sufferer from a mental illness.

[RBStevens]

398. Daily runners can indeed be a sort of addict

depending on how they feel when they cannot run for a day or two or a week. It depends. Do they become agitated and irritated when they can't?

[Gravitycollapse]

399. That isn't the definition of addiction.

[RBStevens]

402. Being agitated or upset and/or having personal relationships suffer because

a person can not do the habitual thing that they want to do is not, at least, an indicator of addiction as we know it?

[Gravitycollapse]

404. It is an indicator of many things, not just potential addiction.

No psychologist would suggest that someone is suffering from an addiction because they need to run every day to feel well. That is antithetical to the entire premise of an addiction being destructive.

[RBStevens]

405. Ah, but the NEED to do something to FEEL well

(not yelling, would rather italicize) is part of it. But the bigger part of it, as I think most psychologists would agree, is when that need supersedes and/or controls other aspects of a person's life.

If a runner cannot run every day and becomes irritable/combative because of that then even though it may *be good for their physical health* it is being "destructive" in other areas of their life, wouldn't you agree?

[Gravitycollapse]

406. You NEED a good night's sleep to FEEL well. That doesn't mean you're addicted to sleep.

Being irritable and combative is not alone an indicator of addiction.

So, no, I would not agree at all with your argument in this case.

[RBStevens]

408. Since I try not to do the goal-post thing

I'll say this - everyone needs to sleep in order to survive. Everyone needs to eat food and drink water to survive. Everyone needs to breathe air to survive.

One does not need to run or look at porn or drink a beer every day to survive. If a person feels they must do something that is not necessary for survival and not being able to do that thing is causing any upheaval in their sense of well-being or their relationships with those around them then we have to consider that an indicator of addiction.

[Gravitycollapse]

410. Everyone needs some form of exercise to be healthy. Being totally stagnant can be life threatening.

That's the kind of issues quadriplegics deal with. The human body is designed to function well when used properly.

Atrophy of all sorts of vital muscles and bodily functions can cause life threatening complications for the totally immobilized.

In that context, comparing sleep to exercise is totally valid. Those who exercise more simply have a greater physical demand than others.

Hence, studies demonstrate that adequate daily exercise is as effective as prescription antidepressants.

[RBStevens]

414. Said I didn't want to do it -

You are moving the goal posts. And running around the end zone even. Forgive me if I failed to mention that quads are an exception to the example I was giving however most able-bodied people do get enough exercise to survive, maybe not in the healthiest of forms, but survive nonetheless.

We started with you having an issue with Sarah suggesting that porn consumption can be/is an addiction with quantifiable brain chemistry alteration.

Do you believe that it is possible to be addicted to pornography?

[Gravitycollapse]

415. The poorly exercised are equivalent to the poorly slept. That was my point.

And, yes, I believe it is possible to be addicted to pornography.

[RBStevens]

416. I got your point. Thanks for the answer.

and with that I'll be off to other things.

[Warren DeMontague]

441. How many regular exercisers do you know?

Fuck yes, most people who exercise regularly, and enjoy the health benefits of it, might become agitated and irritated when they can't do it.

That is a far cry from actual addiction, and honestly insulting to those folks who struggle with the same.

[Warren DeMontague]

446. Habitually doing the same thing over and over again, even "expecting a different result"

as the old-timey 12 step old timers will opine, in their tones of shopworn oldtimey 12 step old-timer wisdom, is NOT IMEHO...OMIRNSEHO, necessarily the same thing as "addiction".

Even detrimental behavior, stupid behavior, or even incomprehensibly silly behavior- like returning over and over to a message board to be rebanned, repeatedly - is not the same thing as "addiction", which is AFAIACIMOWHETIINAVHOA primarily a physiological process.

And the only "scientists" who think pictures of naked people cause "addictive brain chemicals".... Erm, I wouldn't recommend using them as a source.

[foo_bar]

182. how do you get from "overrepresented" to claiming 100% (?) of adult entertainers are mentally ill?

"there have been studies, there is statistics (sic)"

The damaged goods hypothesis posits that female performers in the adult entertainment industry have higher rates of childhood sexual abuse (CSA), psychological problems, and drug use compared to the typical woman. <...> These findings did not provide support for the damaged goods hypothesis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23167939 ("Pornography actresses: an assessment of the damaged goods hypothesis.&quot

[Sarah Ibarruri]

237. And trying to change facts, because you happen to like porn, and wish to defend it tooth and

nail, does not help you conceal, hide, or negate all the studies done which show that the sex industry is inundated with grown ups who have emotional and psychological problems, a preponderance of whom were sexually abused as children.

But you know all these things darn well anyway, and I don't need to be telling you. The problem is not that you don't know. The problem is that you don't care, because your need to defend porn (you feel) far outweighs any miserable life lived by the actors of porn flicks, so you financially support the makers of porn films, and defend and applaud their "right" to promote this industry.

What I DO find heinous about your defense of porn, however, is that you find NO problem whatsoever using porn for your own devises, without even one iota of regard whatsoever to what it does to the people who participate in it, or even to the fact that they're doing porn because they have mental and emotional issues. That just shows a lack of conscience, because you DO know better than that.

[Gravitycollapse]

292. I'm essentially the only potential ally you have on this subject.

Don't burn bridges you're not sure can be built again.

I invite you to take a step back, to stop the mindless personal attacks, and to reconsider both your argument and the arguments or others. You have provided exactly ZERO evidence to sport your claims.

I have already told you that popular pornography has a high capacity for destruction. I even said that it can and does harm the actors. What I have refused to do is give into the outlandish, baseless claim that enjoying or being in porn makes one mentally ill.

Check yourself before you find that you've alienated the few remaining persons potentially on your side.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

295. If you're an ally, good heavens, I'd hate to see what the enemy looks like...

but I can probably guess - it's someone who needs to look at Internet porn every single day.

[Gravitycollapse]

301. You still don't get it, do you? I agree with much of what you are saying...

I'm telling you, however, that you have ruined your stance by trying to argue that anyone who watches or participates in pornography is mentally ill. That is an argument to which I cannot abide. And that has nothing to do with any potential advocating for pornography on my part. I've made it clear I think popular pornography is a potentially highly destructive force.

The reason you haven't heard me explain that further is because you've completely blocked the path with your ridiculous accusations of mental illness. Which is at even the most elementary examination of post Victorian psychological and sexual history indicative of an authoritarian, sexist ideology.

Your argument represents you as exactly the thing to which you claim you are fighting against.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

305. I think you have confused it. I said that daily obsession with porn is an addiction...

and that porn stars and prostitutes, are not mentally healthy.

[Gravitycollapse]

322. You called her mentally disturbed. Do you not remember that?

Those are your own words.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

323. You're confusing yourself again. Let me post what you said:

"I'm telling you, however, that you have ruined your stance by trying to argue that anyone who watches or participates in pornography is mentally ill."

What you're saying now is that I called HER mentally disturbed. Which is it you're talking about? The watchers? The performers?

[Gravitycollapse]

340. You called anyone who watches porn daily an addict...

And you called the porn star mentally disturbed. You also mentioned a laundry list of other lesser insults.

You also told me I defend porn despite the fact that I don't. And you said I disagree with you because I have to justify my own love of porn despite the fact that I made it very clear I do not defend mass consumption popular pornography.

You seem to be the one who's confused. You can't even remember your own argument.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

341. Yes. But you confused the two.

So what is your question?

[Gravitycollapse]

345. No I did not. I said you called her mentally ill.

And you did. I said you called consumers of pornography mentally ill. Which you have on multiple occasions. It isn't until now, probably after you realized how thin the ice is you are standing on, that you've now attempted go distance yourself from your previous statements.

Do you need a little time to gather your thoughts? It seems to me you are so wound up in arguments you just pulled out of thin air that you can't keep track of what is sincerely held and what is a fabrication.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

355. Let's drop it immediately, because you were confused and are insisting you were not

So this topic is now dropped. The end.

[Gravitycollapse]

370. Then I'll have the last word. Your arguments are an embarrassment to feminist sex research.

Goodbye.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

417. Sex research? Good heavens. nt

[whathehell]

363. Tell it to all the researchers who have studied the issue..

Or are you too "intellectually lazy" to do the research?

[Gravitycollapse]

368. I know more about the research on the subject than probably anyone else in this thread.

Not that such a thing is much consolation to you since you don't actually know who I am.

If you wish to put forth the argument that simply watching or participating in pornography makes one mentally ill, mentally disturbed, an addict or in possession of "serious issues," then you have to identify actual research, qualitatively or quantitatively, that is peer reviewed and reputable, which vindicates your claim.

Theory based arguments might help if you possess a large body of academic writings on the subject.


Do you possess any of that? My guess is you do not. And I'm not here to research and validate inept, uneducated opinion.

[whathehell]

418. Sure, and we'll all just take you word on that, right?..Sorry, but anyone could make that statement

and btw, NO one that I've seen on the thread is making the argument that "simply watching" pornography

"makes" one mentally ill. It's my understanding of the argument AGAINST participating in porn is not that it

causes mental illness, but that, as numerous studies have found, the overwhelming majority of women in prostitution

(yes, acting in porn is a form of prostitution) were sexually abused as children, leaving them with very low self-esteem.


I don't "have" to identify the research -- It's all over the place...Google is your friend.

As for your pompous bs about "validating inept, uneducated opinion"...Give me a break -- You don't give a flying fuck about

"valid" research on the subject -- You'd simply PREFER to keep believing porn is a "victimless" enterprise so that

your enjoyment of it won't be marred by any sense of guilt. It's called SELF-INTEREST...Duh.

[opiate69]

371. Study: Religious people more likely to think they’re porn addicts

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/02/13/study-religious-people-more-likely-to-think-theyre-prn-addicts/

Very religious people are more likely to consider themselves addicted to pornography
 – even after viewing Internet porn just once.
Researchers at Case Western Reserve University examined the link between perceptions of addiction to online pornography and religious beliefs in a study that was published Wednesday in the journal Archives of Sexual Behavior.
“We were surprised that the amount of viewing did not impact the perception of addiction, but strong moral beliefs did,” said Joshua Grubbs, a doctoral student and lead author of the study.


snip


However, another study published this month found little evidence
 such an addiction exists.
Researchers at New Mexico Solutions, a behavioral health program in Albuquerque, said no evidence connected pornography use to erectile dysfunction or changes in the brain.

[whathehell]

420. Wrong issue, bro..We're not talking about USING porn, we're talking about participating in it.

and I'm not religious.

[Capt. Obvious]

224. How is your time after the Senate Mr. Frist?

Enjoying it?

[NaturalHigh]

241. "[T]his person has serious issues"...

because she has different values than you? She's "mentally disturbed"? Really?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

247. No. She has issues because the preponderance of sex workers are people with emotional and mental

issues. Read before you ask. Your question might be redundant, and it was.

[NaturalHigh]

250. Your assumptions about people you don't know...

might be arrogant and condescending, and they are.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

263. Then everything is an assumption, whenever studies are taken into account...

even the use of medical treatment relies upon studies.

[hughee99]

283. WTF? A preponderance of Presidents are white. What color is our CURRENT President?

It's interesting to make a remote diagnosis about a SPECIFIC person, and using as your basis for this, studies peppered with phrases like "tend to be" (studies that others here are refuting, but for the sake of argument, I'll assume the ones you refer to are true).

Anyone who would do this sort of thing must have serious problems.

That statement can only be supported by a study that says EVERYONE who does this sort of thing has mental problems. Do you have such a study? If not, then studies show that SOME people that do this sort of thing do not have mental problems and YOU have no way of knowing, given your information, which category this woman falls into.

I guess that makes sense though, given the numerous posts where you've diagnosed other DUers as people only defending women because they love their porn.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

254. I'm curious as to why you think she's mentally disturbed ...

... for feeling disrespected in one job, and feeling respected in another?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

255. Read my posts. nt

[Fantastic Anarchist]

275. I've read a few ...

... and haven't really found an explanation as to why she's mentally disturbed for feeling disrespected at one job and feeling respected at another.

I wasn't trying to be snarky, I was genuinely curious.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

294. I looked for a few minutes, but as I'm busy I can't be googling all day. You can google as well.

I found these just browsing for a few minutes:

http://ps.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleID=116227

http://jiv.sagepub.com/content/13/2/206.abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11513908

http://jiv.sagepub.com/content/13/2/206.abstract

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/Silbert%20Pines%20Early%20Sexual%20Exploitation%20in%20Prostitution.pdf

http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/mhvhealt.htm

I’m sure I could locate hundreds more.

And for just pleasure reading, as an aside, try these two. They explain the problem men experience once they have become addicted to Internet pornography, not the least of which is increasing incapacity to get hard and come unless there is pornography present. Pretty pathetic situation.

Typically, while I was treating one of these men for some other problem, he would report, almost as an aside and with telling discomfort, that he found himself spending more and more time on the Internet, looking at pornography and masturbating. He might try to [104] ease his discomfort by asserting that everybody did it. In some cases he would begin by looking at a Playboy-type site or at a nude picture or video clip that someone had sent him as a lark. In other cases he would visit a harmless site, with a suggestive ad that redirected him to risque sites, and soon he would be hooked.

A number of these men also reported something else, often in passing, that caught my attention. They reported increasing difficulty in being turned on by their actual sexual partners, spouses or girlfriends, though they still considered them objectively attractive. When I asked if this phenomenon had any relationship to viewing pornography, they answered that it initially helped them get more excited during sex but over time had the opposite effect. Now, instead of using their senses to enjoy being in bed, in the present, with their partners, lovemaking increasingly required them to fantasize that they were part of a porn script. Some gently tried to persuade their lovers to act like porn stars, and they were increasingly interested in “fucking” as opposed to “making love.” Their sexual fantasy lives were increasingly dominated by the scenarios that they had, so to speak downloaded into their brains, and these new scripts were often more primitive and more violent than their previous sexual fantasies. I got the impression that any sexual creativity these men had was dying and that they were becoming addicted to Internet porn.
http://www.reuniting.info/node/1808

and

http://yourbrainonporn.com/physiological-and-psychological-effects-modern-day-pornography-2013

[closeupready]

260. +1000, Sarah.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

262. Thanks! nt

[closeupready]

284. I've been flamed here previously for making the same argument.

It's self-evident in my view that porn actors are to a significant extent mentally ill, but on DU with its former freepers and misogynists, you are being 'judgmental'.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

298. More than likely you were attacked by men who view Internet porn every day...

...and for whom viewing Internet porn every day has become (for them) a necessity without which they feel somehow less. There are a couple of women here who agree their husbands being glued daily to Internet porn, but so few as to even mention, and I doubt those few seriously have even a clue what it's all truly about anyway.

It doesn't bother me one iota that all these men come out to defend their porn. I know why they do it, and I know they get desperate thinking of not having their Internet porn available for view. They take it very, very personally as a criticism. In fact, I expect them to do so, because it's such an intense addiction they have. I mean, what else can they do but justify their daily addiction?

[closeupready]

304. Yes, and you know what else - it sickens me to think that

these are likely misogynist men who promote the idea that it is GAY men who are misogynist (because, I guess, they do not penetrate vagina, as if that is the definition of manhood).

Just so many level of WTF going on there, and I rarely wade into these discussions because it becomes quickly obvious that most people you're dealing with are, like many porn performers, mentally ill.

Peace to you, Sarah.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

306. Maybe! You have a valid point. My personal opinion is that men who view porn all the time

might not be too keen on gay men.

Peace to you too!

[BBR Esq]

13. 11 replies down

289 to go...

[BainsBane]

15. How is this news?

Someone needs money for college. Gets a job. And?

[Comrade Grumpy]

67. In the same sense that a study about holding doors open is news, I suppose.

[BainsBane]

69. Ah, but that was high comedy

The irony that a carefully woven tale of feminist "angst about doors" is turned around to show that it actually isn't women who are uptight about doors at all.



image stolen from RBStevens

[NaturalHigh]

210. Who was the first to call a man opening a door for a woman...

sexism on this site?

High comedy indeed!

[BainsBane]

231. No one.

The whole controversy was ginned up. Someone asked Seabeyond what benevolent sexism was and she gave examples (I believe a quote from some website), and people decided to make flame fests out of it. Some take any opportunity they can to undermine women's rights and equality opportunity more generally, and they thus make a point of belittling feminists.

[NaturalHigh]

234. So you're saying it was Seabeyond who first mentioned it here...

yet you blame others for the flamefests. It's such an absolutely ridiculous idea (men opening doors for women is sexist) that it deserves to be the source of some humor.

[BainsBane]

236. Yes because they lied and said women here complained about men's opening doors

That it has been written about somewhere as a form of benevolent sexism does not mean women here find it offensive. To pretend they have claimed they did, which has been done repeatedly, is a clear and blatant LIE.

It is a source of humor. As the study in GD shows, it's men who are freaked out by it, not women, which is why I plan to post that Jpeg with great frequency to highlight the absurdity of the ginned up flame fests that some love to create.


What isn't funny is how some are determined to do anything to prop up their own privilege at the expense of the majority of humanity.

[NaturalHigh]

239. It's funny if you talk about the subject...

but offensive when others do. Got it. Talk about "privilege"...

[BainsBane]

240. What's offensive is lying

Particularly when the goal is to undermine equal rights. But hey, if truth is irrelevant to you, so be it.

[NaturalHigh]

242. Please point out the lies...

or as you like to say "can you please PM me those links"?

[BainsBane]

243. I already explained them to you

Last edited Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:33 PM - Edit history (1)

People lied in saying women here had complained about having doors opened for them. You seem to think that is perfectly acceptable thing to do. Search under doors for yourself. You can turn up the threads.

I bookmarked this thread for future reference.

[NaturalHigh]

248. "Search under doors"...

Ha! I see what you did there!

I now have your word that somebody lied in one of those threads. Well, that's what I call evidence. At least the world is now a better place because some people will never open a door for anyone again under any circumstances.

Bookmark away.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

114. Translation

Young woman speaking out that doesn't really fit my narrative, derail.

[BainsBane]

115. Yeah, that is exactly what I said.

What's your next translation project? Dostoyevsky?

Actually I was going to ask whether we should interrogate the college kids who get jobs in the pizza parlors and in libraries as well. If it is, as I would actually agree, her business and her choice, why should it be a subject of inquiry for DU vs. any other job choice?

I think the real point is: porn, wow, cool. porn. He . . .he. . . he. Maybe I can get a flame war going.

Did you read the other thread about the male porn actor?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

121. I haven't read the other thread

This woman wrote an article, did an interview, spoke out. It's not "news", it's opinion, thoughts, commentary....

As I suspected, you're irked because it doesn't have your talking points in it. Therefore, porn cool, he he he all those things that concern you so greatly here.

[BainsBane]

189. "As you suspected"

Next time don't bother replying since you already claim to know everything that's in my head. You obviously don't care what I actually think. It serves no purpose, unless you happen to see this site as serving the same sort of purpose that Benny did.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

192. You're questioning my respect for this site?

You? Of all people? Wow. That's rich.

[BainsBane]

196. No, you clearly missed the point

Let's repeat: Since you think you already know what I think and can't be bothered to read what I actually write, don't bother responding to my posts. You aren't interested in discussion, and I find your constant hostility a bore.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

267. Your first reply to me ever on this site was among the most hostile I've ever received

I've only responded in kind since. Sorry.

[BainsBane]

319. All the more reason to avoid me

Your memory is far longer than mine. I have no idea what my first response to you was. You want to carry a grudge for years on end, have at it. I'm not interested in playing.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

331. Oh good, we've come 180 degrees then

Considering my introduction to you was you stalkerishly following me around the boards one night early last year demanding I reply to you up to and including telling me what time I logged on, replied to other people, why couldn't I do that for you....wow, it was creepy. Well, you wanted to play and I wore you down, I guess. I win. Have a nice day.

[factsarenotfair]

20. Yeah, well, here's a student collecting cans and bottles for college money.

Going to college on empties
OSU student pays for an education by collecting cans and bottles

Stephanie Lilly is helping to pay for her college education one bottle and can at a time.

Lilly and her parents collect bottles and cans almost every weekend in neighborhoods from Harrisburg to Eugene.

In the past four years, the Oregon State University senior from Harrisburg has redeemed enough bottles and cans to pay for a hefty share of her college expenses.
...
http://www.registerguard.com/rg/news/local/31197626-75/lilly-cans-bottles-stephanie-harrisburg.html.csp

[bigwillq]

26. Good for her.

I wish her only the best.

[LadyHawkAZ]

194. Also cool. n/t

[bigwillq]

25. Good for her.

I wish her only the best.

[riqster]

30. A good read. Well worth the time.

Thought-provoking and gutsy.

[LittleBlue]

37. If porn empowers her, good

Her being a porn star would not influence negatively my decision to hire her. If anything I might be more inclined to hire her due to her steadfast resistance in the face of societal pressure.

[marions ghost]

40. Question

Is there a difference between acts of sex porn and degradation/humiliation porn? Because what she was doing was crossing that boundary IMO.

If it's all the same to most people, I guess I'm in the minority.

[LittleBlue]

45. Not to me

I don't see anything inherently degrading about sex, on or off camera.

[marions ghost]

54. OK so

sex acts porn and degrading/humiliating/ brutalizing porn are one and the same for most people who consume porn? No need to be graphic--just trying to understand what this multi-billion dollar industry is all about these days--especially since it has become sex ed for the young.

Read my post #51 below for further input on this. It would seem that from these articles I posted, for most people who consume porn, degradation of women in these films is seen as normal, even healthy?
Amirite?

[LittleBlue]

59. Anything in sex can be viewed as degrading

Some people consent to being tied up and whipped. For outsiders, such a practice can be viewed as degrading. But for the recipient, it can be a normal way to maximize his/her pleasure. Perhaps he/she does feel degraded, but that heightens his/her pleasure.

The purpose of sex, to me, is pleasure. However you get there, I don't see it as bad even if you take pleasure in degradation.

[marions ghost]

65. Do you think

that taking pleasure in degradation of others might be harmful to those who are young or maybe more literal-minded--those who use these films as instruction manuals?

To enjoy watching people hurting and humiliating others doesn't seem a positive thing. I don't judge the person who gets off on this. My problem is with it being promoted as normal sex.

[LittleBlue]

71. I don't think it matters

A counter argument is that for centuries, people kept their urges bottled up, afraid to express them. It isn't healthy to do so.

And, since it's all legal, such a discussion really boils down to morality and speculative psychology.

[marions ghost]

73. The logical conclusion of what you said...

is that men's urges to take it out on women in acts of brutality involving sex has been bottled up for centuries and now it's healthy to express it? Seriously?!

From the newspaper article posted in #51:

"Perhaps unsurprisingly, the perpetrators of violent acts were most commonly men, while the targets of their violence were nearly always women. In almost every case, women were shown reacting to aggressive acts with pleasure or neutrality, enforcing the idea that women enjoy being dominated or degraded during sex."
----------
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/why-the-new-porn-norm-is-hurting-women-20110302-1be54.html#ixzz2uNDFT7Np

(As far as legality--lots of stuff that's legal isn't cool, so that line of argument doesn't support anything).

[LittleBlue]

78. As long as the other person consents

I have no problem with anyone expressing themselves in the bedroom. In fact, what they do in there, and what they choose to express on video, doesn't concern me in the slightest.

Their bodies, their choices.

[marions ghost]

89. Not talking about individuals and what they do

I don't care about that either--I think you know I am talking about the dissemination of video images that show men humiliating and degrading women as the "new norm" in porn--these do have an influence on society as a whole. You've sidestepped the whole question of the impact of these videos on others. The problem is not that they exist, but that the porn producers have apparently succeeded in making acts of brutality into what is perceived as healthy sexual imagery.


----------

Social psychologists deal with the factors that lead us to behave in a given way in the presence of others, and look at the conditions under which certain behavior/actions and feelings occur. Social psychology is concerned with the way these feelings, thoughts, beliefs, intentions and goals are constructed and how such psychological factors, in turn, influence our interactions with others. Wiki

In other words, what society teaches us and how it influences group behavior.

[LittleBlue]

96. I don't think I've sidestepped it

People who don't want to watch it don't have to. You of course can attempt to convince them otherwise, but those pleas have apparently fallen on deaf ears if the popularity of porn is anything to go by. Is it damaging? Everyone has an opinion on it. Alcohol is damaging, and everyone has the choice of whether to drink it. It's really up to you whether you want to view it or not, and whether you think it's damaging. I don't think it's damaging, that's just me.

And getting to the heart of the matter, the woman in the OP doesn't think it's damaging. And for her body, that's the only opinion that matters. It is after all an individual right, and an individual choice, so you cannot say I'm sidestepping the issue by making it about individuals.

Let's say it is as you believe, there is a massive societal impact. What then? What do you think we should do about it?

[El_Johns]

186. Actually, it is healthy to do so. Learning to keep one's anti-social impulses bottled up is

quite healthy.

The opposite idea is a new age fairy story unsupported by any evidence.

[LittleBlue]

187. BDSM is antisocial?

Interesting. I did not expect so many sexually judgmental people on a progressive website.

[marions ghost]

209. What I find interesting

is that so many people on a progressive website think that what this very young woman gets done to her in films is just fine. This type of humiliation and degradation is currently being promoted as healthy and cool, that's obvious. But the vast majority of these videos show men abusing women, not the other way around. A woman abusing a man only appeals to a few men, and even less to women--so it's totally one-sided--men abusing and subjugating women. This is all about ritualized male dominance, I think it's fair to say. And these rituals may be popular because all of us feel so powerless in this society.

You have to think there is a relationship to the rising incidence of rapes and violence on campus, the military, and in society in general. When no means yes, when (at least) 25% of women are sexually assaulted, Houston you have a problem. People who are very literal and not too smart don't do the finer points of kinky, they do brutality and violence. What people practice in fantasy and in private comes out in their lives eventually. As sick as our society is now, I could see that learning this behavior could help a man (or aggressive woman) compete in a world where dominating others is the name of the game.

Every choice you make in life has a repercussion of some sort. I don't think this is a great way to work out your inhibitions. But I'd like to hear the rest of the story from this woman in 5-10 years, or from other women who are older who have experienced acts of humiliation and violence from a man. I want to know if the women later in life say this helped them form relationships of Trust (as this is touted to do). I'm skeptical.

Anyway, I'm interested in the connection between this BDSM porn world behavior becoming "the norm" (if it is) and what we see in the daylight hours in society. I'm an observer/researcher, not a crusader for people to be different than they are.
I study a social phenom objectively, I don't try to persuade.

The fact that apparently so many people see this as a positive thing is IMO possibly indicative of the way we all have been subjugated and reduced to a state of powerlessness in this increasingly un-democratic society where wages are the lowest they've ever been, there is huge lack of job security, lack of social and health safety nets, etc. A lot of fear and anger. So this behavior becomes a substitute for attainment of personal power--of the type characterized as "power over" others. But for the individual I think using this as a displacement activity may be as false and unrewarding in the long run as getting a drug fix.

[marions ghost]

51. Answering my own question,

reading articles since I'm no expert on the subject...

This article addresses the question of degradation porn being now considered "normal,"
--because of the film-makers having to increase the level of aggression. So I guess for most people who consume porn there is now no difference between regular old porn and brutality/degradation. Is that a fair statement?

-----------

"The research found that physical aggression was present in 88 per cent of scenes. Of these, there was an average of 12 aggressive acts per scene. In addition, name-calling occurred in about half of all scenes.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, the perpetrators of violent acts were most commonly men, while the targets of their violence were nearly always women. In almost every case, women were shown reacting to aggressive acts with pleasure or neutrality, enforcing the idea that women enjoy being dominated or degraded during sex.

Sexual acts that women would typically find painful or degrading were common in the videos analysed. Boston sociology professor Gail Dines has previously reflected on this particular sequence and noted that it often comes with a ‘‘joke’’ about the woman being made to ‘‘eat shit’’. Professor Dines further points out that the brutality of the industry has become such that most porn actresses have a ‘‘shelf life’’ of three months because their bodies are so physically damaged by the job.

Even defenders of the industry would have a hard time arguing against the unequivocal finding in this research that there has been a sharp increase in the levels of aggression shown in films over the past two decades. They commonly contest, however, that the degree and frequency of violence towards women doesn’t matter because porn is ‘‘just fantasy’’.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/why-the-new-porn-norm-is-hurting-women-20110302-1be54.html#ixzz2uNDFT7Np
----------

Another related article:

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life/naomi-wolf-on-the-porn-myth-20100503-u3af.html

[LittleBlue]

102. Let's say there is a huge societal impact

For the sake of argument, let's say I agree with you. Let's say you've convinced me, that there is a huge societal impact.

What next? Where are we?

[marions ghost]

211. I don't claim to know...

It may be more a symptom than a cause. Maybe it's circular and can escalate exponentially. Don't know. The jury is out. This widespread acceptance of degradation of others (even in fantasy) is IMO a new phenomenon.

By the time social psychologists have enough data with strong results to convince educators, parents, whoever else --that there is damage--especially to young adults--you've got a population already living the outcome. As I said, I think this MAY be a symptom of a society where so many feel powerless in their public lives. Just a theory.

I don't accept that it's healthy--maybe as a controlled thing for some personality types to work through some things--but it can easily become abuse, and I question the motives of those promoting this kind of porn, which IMO is all about money, not health. The motives behind it are cynical and exploitative, degrading--not only to these young women--but to the rest of us.

I have no idea what's next--societally speaking. Until there is more study on this--I can't persuade anyone of any solutions. I can only say, Buyer Beware. There are no other routes of opposition because this is a multi-billion dollar business, and nothing I could ever say stops that voracious beast. We are powerless over it. No solutions except for individuals to reject it.

I could see this freshman porn star in a psychologists office one day trying to work out a few things. And maybe even those who participated in her exploitation will do that too--both providers and consumers. Or, maybe everybody is all happy and singing kumbaya by then. I don't know. But I'm cynical about our prospects in general for the immediate future, on our present course.

So tell me--How is this promotion of ritual subjugation of women --any different from religious Fundies who preach "woman shall be obedient servants"? It seems to be the same message wrapped up in a libertarian package.

[OilemFirchen]

268. BDSM is not a "new" phenomenon.

Witness the meteoric success of Betty Page and the genre at the time.

The "new" (and healthy) niche is female domination of men. Investigate CFNM, if you're not too sensitive. You'll find that it's a rapidly growing porn category enjoyed by both men and women.

[marions ghost]

272. To clarify

I said BDSM humiliation and degradation--becoming mainstream in the world of porn (one article called it the "new norm" in porn)--this is where I see the problem. I know it's always been a thrill for some, and I don't think it should be censored anymore than anything else, but now is being promoted as the cool thing. For the young and impressionable, or the very literal minded, I worry about that.

My question--is this phenom, growing as you say, a way of coping with living in an aggressive, brutally competitive world, or is is just a distraction pushed by a huge industry and promoted to naive people as healthy? Or is it really just all fun and games...

Thx for reply & tip. I will check that out, to see if I agree it's a growing trend or hype.

[OilemFirchen]

282. I'll leave armchair psychology to the others here.

I will suggest, however, that the simple act of coitus is, by its nature, invasive and includes some element of dominance and submission. That throughout history representations of BDSM have been a staple of some erotica suggests that it's a natural component of sexuality that some (perhaps many) find stimulating.

I call bollocks on anyone asserting that BDSM has been "mainstreamed". A cursory glimpse of any free streaming porn site would show that the genre is still considered fetish. However, dominatrix-oriented themes are growing in popularity. I suspect that some consumers of erotica have always found an appeal in female domination, but it's only recently that norms have been relaxed to accommodate that niche. The BDSM of the mid-twentieth century likely filled that need by having women play both roles by proxy. Look at the attire - it was clearly a substitute for male/female dominance and submission during an especially prudish era.

BTW, I think your understanding of the porn industry is outdated. While there are certainly large producers that remain male-owned and likely hostile to their employees, the internet has opened a burgeoning market for men, women and couples who profit from a growing interest in amateur, erotic and fetish porn. That's being mainstreamed.

[marions ghost]

335. So OK

I appreciate your comments. I have no problem accepting that BDSM has been around for centuries. I accept your comment that there is a large and perhaps growing audience for porn. But these days, is BDSM fetish porn somehow different from "mainstream" porn --if mainstream now has come to mean degradation and abuse of women?--seems like splitting hairs awfully fine there...
-------
The following Sydney Morning Herald article from 2011 says that violent acts and degradation of women in porn is now the norm. And so that's good, wonderful, fine?? If true, yeah, I have to work to get my head around that. Does not compute, seems like some utopian Libertarian Idiocracy...
-------------------------
excerpt:

"Recent research shows that acts of aggression against women are a commonplace – indeed expected – part of the porn narrative. In defending their industry, many accuse the ‘‘anti-porn brigade’’ of focusing only on particularly violent examples of pornography. A recent study published in the journal Violence Against Women, however, has analyzed the best-selling porn videos to see just how widespread and routine the degradation of women in pornography has become.

"The research found that physical aggression was present in 88 per cent of scenes. Of these, there was an average of 12 aggressive acts per scene. In addition, name-calling occurred in about half of all scenes. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the perpetrators of violent acts were most commonly men, while the targets of their violence were nearly always women. In almost every case, women were shown reacting to aggressive acts with pleasure or neutrality, enforcing the idea that women enjoy being dominated or degraded during sex.

Sexual acts that women would typically find painful or degrading were common in the videos analyzed. Boston sociology professor Gail Dines has previously reflected on this particular sequence and noted that it often comes with a ‘‘joke’’ about the woman being made to ‘‘eat shit’’. Professor Dines further points out that the brutality of the industry has become such that most porn actresses have a ‘‘shelf life’’ of three months because their bodies are so physically damaged by the job.

Even defenders of the industry would have a hard time arguing against the unequivocal finding in this research that there has been a sharp increase in the levels of aggression shown in films over the past two decades. They commonly contest, however, that the degree and frequency of violence towards women doesn’t matter because porn is ‘‘just fantasy’’.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/why-the-new-porn-norm-is-hurting-women-20110302-1be54.html#ixzz2uSlQgVvb

[opiate69]

349. Gail Dines?

Why am I seeing transphobic bigots being trotted out on a progressive message board as an authority on anything?

[marions ghost]

351. The article was not written by her-- so

Last edited Wed Feb 26, 2014, 06:52 PM - Edit history (1)

blame the writer of the article

Source was mainstream, average newspaper Sydney Morning Herald. From Wiki:

T"he paper is often criticised for being left-wing. The Herald does employ journalists who have a left-leaning inclination, like feminist Adele Horin. It also employs journalists like Peter Hartcher, who is recognised as a balanced commentator. Finally, the paper also prints regular opinnion columns from conservative commentators like Paul Sheehan and Peter Reith."

----ps

So I see that this Gail Dines you villify is a researcher who is outspoken against degradation of women in porn and a major target for the porn industry. I didn't know about her. This article informed me about her:

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/02/gail-dines-pornography

[cali]

46. I just read the whole thing. crock of shit. reads like parody.

no contradictions here:

I am not ashamed of porn. On the contrary, doing pornography fulfills me. That said, I vehemently want to have my privacy respected -- and I ask that anyone who knows my real name respect the fact that I am only discussing this publicly because it was made a public matter when I was confronted by a fraternity member who chose to tell hundreds of other men in the Greek scene.

[ZombieHorde]

90. That is not a contradiction.

Sex workers are discriminated against, so having their privacy protected protects them from bigotry.

[whathehell]

92. LOL..

[RBStevens]

80. ...

[quinnox]

52. fascinating read

she says a lot of provocative stuff, and says she is a feminist and is challenging the patriarchy. Recommended.

[dlwickham]

77. she wants her privacy respected but she's screwing on camera?

maybe she should have thought about her privacy before deciding to do porn

[whathehell]

95. Exactly...Hillarious!

[sufrommich]

112. The fact that she's a porn actress

doesn't mean that slut shaming and sexual harassment are ok,she says right in the article that she was the victim of both. There isn't a woman in the world that doesn't know that there is a double standard when it comes to sex,frankly,if she were sexually promiscuous on campus,she'd get the same treatment. Whether she should be treated with respect shouldn't be predicated on whether or not she's a "good girl".

[one_voice]

123. This exactly!...

My son, daughter and I were just talking about this.

There's a definite double standard when it comes to women that enjoy sex and men that enjoy it. Most of the time the women get a 'bad reputation' while no one bats an eye at a man.

A woman is called a s*ut, easy, etc, but no such names exist for a man, except maybe 'dog' and that doesn't have the same impact.

I'm of the belief if a woman enjoys sex she should be free to enjoy it without worry of being shamed.


I will say there are men now that don't label women with those awful names, but we still have a long way to go.

[alp227]

302. so you're blaming her for losing her face but not those who disrespect her privacy?

People have the right to keep some details of their lives private. I think it should have been fairly simple for this woman to publicly deny doing the porn in the face of the allegations. How did she get "outed"? Mere eyewitness ID (which can be faulty)?

[LisaL]

369. Someone who saw her in a porn movie has no obligation to keep it private.

While people have the right to keep some details of their lives private, I fail to see how that applies to someone participating in porn. It's on video for people to buy and view.
How could someone possibly suggest that should be kept private?

[alp227]

380. Using a stage name & a lot of makeup

& say "she just is a look alike" when asked

[dlwickham]

411. it's the same thing for anyone who chooses to put themselves in the public eye

you choose to have a career as a performer or a politician or any field in which you're in the public eye, you're making a choice to give up some if not all of your privacy

that's the nature of the beast especially in our 24/7 news world

[Exultant Democracy]

79. From looking at the wiki it would seem this woman falls into the sexually liberal school of feminism

also known as Sex-positive feminism. In the end it seems like the difference all comes down to how women and men in these particular school of feminism view sex. Puritans vs liberals.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

106. Ah. I think that was a fine way of saying, "don't criticize my porn!!!" I need it. nt

[Exultant Democracy]

125. Disgusting personal attacks aside response seems to indicate that this student doen't have agency.

The other side of slut shaming is it were.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

158. Frankly, I find it disgusting that anyone would applaud the degradation of someone

And it questions just what else that person might be capable of applauding.

[Kurska]

163. You seem to be under a tragic misconception

You do not get to decide what is degrading or even if it is "degrading" whether people are allowed to be degraded or not.

I know mentally sound, intelligent and successful people who very much enjoy sexual acts and sexual situations that you probably find degrading. You have every right to not like those sexual acts or situations, YOU have every right not to take part in them or want to hear about them.

However, I'm just about done hearing you call people who do mentally ill like you did up thread, implying there is something wrong with them or challenging their agency.

I'm sure you're a wonderful person and yada yada yada. I think you would benefit greatly from learning to respect the choices of others regarding their own body.

TLDR: Please mind your own business.

Thank you

[riderinthestorm]

171. Let me be the first to throw a monkey wrench in your gears

We as a society can and do decide what is "degrading". We impose "moral standards" in the public square all the time - from "no shirt, no shoes, no admittance" signs on many store fronts (which are also applicable to public places like schools and court) - to imposing our collective will on the excision of a woman's sexuality via FGM. I reiterate that FGM is completely sexually oriented in that the patriarchs who mandated this were trying to limit women's libido by removing the clitoris so please don't try to argue FGM isn't sexual or that its "cultural". Beyond that we as a society have collectively agreed upon imposed societal standards on what is degrading to a woman (like banning FGM etc)

Like it or not, we in the west have a rich public tradition that extends even to today on defining sexuality, slut shaming etc. We can and do regulate sexuality such as women not being able to go topless in public areas (remember Princess Kate getting photographed from a couple miles away in a private villa, topless with her new husband on her honeymoon? Quelle horreur!) I make no judgement on that except to say that pigs will fly before a woman can testify in court wearing whatever she wants.

So that brings us to porn. The "public square" still deems that people who make porn movies are being degraded, even if there maybe is ONE person who bucks the stats. Just like women wearing burkhas in NY are generally perceived of as being degraded (erased, disappeared) by people in the west, there you have it, even as you can bring in the one case that bucks the trend and says she LIKES being disappeared in society, we (the west in general) aren't comfortable with face coverings.

Personally, if it comes down to a few outliers (those women who LOVE being porn stars or wearing burkhas) vs the vast majority (those women who are desperate and do it because they have no economic choice - no AGENCY - whether its porn or burkha)...

.... then today, I'm siding with the vast majority. We in the west see the women in porn movies as subjugated. Same as those shrouded in burkha. You can talk about agency all you like but this is basically an economics lesson - the woman in the OP feels this is her best choice to do this work to survive in college. The women in burkha must erase themselves to survive in their society.

[Kurska]

179. Sorry no, claiming someone is mentally ill because they like doing pornography is way over the line.

It is slut-shaming. Oh and can anyone realistically see anyone ever making that claim about a man who enjoys making pornography? It is a sexist double standard from top to bottom.

Even if you would, I know men who enjoy making pornography and love it as a career. I dated one. They aren't mentally ill, there isn't something wrong with them. They are people of sound mind and very intelligent. I resent that accusation very much.

Talk all you want about the public sphere, but a woman should be free to do a job that she wants to even if it is sexually related. I'm not going to sit here and listen to sexist double standards and slut-shaming. You can say that is societal norm, I say that is just because there something wrong with society. Since when on DU do we defend sexist double standards, I though we were better.

Can pornography be degrading? Often yes it can, however as I said even then I hardly see the point of attacking someone willingly engaging in something you may personally find degrading.

Their choice their body, respect it.

[My Good Babushka]

221. You get a thumbs up from me

There are a lot of Fanny Nannies on this site. Want to tell everyone what to do and what to think about their own bodies.

[Sheldon Cooper]

223. "Disgusting personal attacks"???

Aren't you the one who just said "puritans vs. liberals"?? That's NOT a personal attack? Bullshit. Educate yourself.

[Kurska]

131. It is a sad day when an informed and educated post is responded to like this. n/t

[Gravitycollapse]

184. Not exactly. Neo sex-negative feminists take issue with the exploitation, not the sex...

They believe in a non-monetized erotica. They want pornography to abandon heteronormative, misogynist stereotypes and sexual violence against women.

We want it to be less about mass consumption and more about the exploration of human sexuality in a constructive manner. Current trends in popular pornography favor sexual violence and objectification of female performers. And it's gotten quite vicious.

[Hippo_Tron]

381. I'd call what you just described sex-positive feminism

[Gravitycollapse]

384. It depends on who you talk to about it, really.

Which is why I specifically try to avoid positive and negative in conversation.

I exist in a place that is often portrayed as the "other side" by positivists and negativists. But I lean in theory and practice towards the negativist bend. Specifically, a neo negativist radical liberationist bend.

[RBStevens]

393. What? What does this mean?

"Specifically, a neo negativist radical liberationist bend."

Did you just make that up? Never mind - I'll google it for myself.

[Gravitycollapse]

397. Sex negativism was originally a conservative, religious philosophy.

Since the development of the different waves of feminism, a new group of feminists have reclaimed the title "sex negativist." In other words, they are a new form of sex negativism (hence the neo).

Feminist liberation is a movement seeking to help women liberate themselves from the rule and oppression of the patriarchy.

If you mash that all together, to be a neo [sex] negativist radical liberationist, that means I am a new form of sex negativist with the intent of inducing an abandonment of the exploitative, violent forms of normative sexuality, including popular pornography, in favor of an egalitarian conception of sexuality and sexual expression.

[RBStevens]

400. Oohkaay.

Interestingly enough in all the years I've been involved in feminist politics I've never heard of anyone trying to re-claim the "sex-negativist" banner. Is it just you are there really other people (not the *sex-positivists*) who are reclaiming this nomenclature?

[Gravitycollapse]

401. It's not just me, to say the least.

[RBStevens]

403. I did do a google search and found nothing close to what you describe

but the key words did lead me to believe that they are used quite a lot in post-modern academia. Maybe I just don't get out enough?

[cui bono]

392. Not really. I'm far from a puritan but I also think women in porn is not healthy for them

and that usually the women who do porn are from troubled backgrounds and have a very low self-worth or self-esteem.

What people do in private for their own pleasure is quite different than doing the same thing in porn.

[bluestateguy]

81. Sounds like a smart young woman exercising her choice with her body

People who have a problem with what she does are welcome to not buy it or watch it.

[whathehell]

93. Yeah, I bet her parents were thrilled as well, LOL!

[Kurska]

313. Personally, my mother would be ashamed of me.

If she thought I was going on the internet questioning the sexual agency and practices of women I do not know.

[whathehell]

359. Riiiiiight!

but she'd be FINE with you being a porn "actresss".

[Kurska]

374. I know porn actors whose parents are fine with their choice of careers.

Not everyone is so judgmental as you assume them to be.

[marions ghost]

219. BDSM porn

How is this promotion of ritual subjugation of women--any different from religious Fundies who preach "woman shall be obedient servants"?

It seems to be the same message wrapped up in a libertarian package.

That's OK?

[Blue_Adept]

220. It really seems like you have no clue what BDSM is.

Or are just giving what you believe the talking point is based on how certain types of news outlets present it.

[marions ghost]

244. OK I'll bite

So if you can tell me what BDSM porn is, in clinical terms (no need to be graphic--using polite code)--I'm listening. You are right that my info is from external sources. Which is how most people get most of their information about any subject you want to name.

So how is BDSM porn not the same subjugation of women that the Fundies preach? How is it justifiable, except in some futuristic libertarian Idiocracy universe where we all enjoy images showing abuse of women. Because this is not about mutual trust--all real trust exercises have the feature of taking turns. This is not what happens in the bulk of BDSM films as I understand it. It's men humiliating women. And that always is about more than merely sex.

Enlighten me. Maybe you'll enlighten others too. How do you justify it?

[Blue_Adept]

261. Will do

First, let's remember that porn is about as realistic as hollywood is with movies. Outside of sports, when you get the mainstream media talking about something, they're often so disconnected from the reality of it that for those that are passionate about something, seeing it talked about is like coming from another world. I grew up being a Dungeons & Dragons fan in the 80's and the media hysteria about it was so disconnected from the reality that it really was eye-opening.

Anyway. BDSM is all about power and control to be sure, and it's also NOT just a female being dominated aspect. BDSM covers a range of configurations and my initial introduction to it was watching dominatrix videos where the men give over the power to the women. There's that, male dominating female, male/male and female/female as well. Talking solely about male over female isn't the thing to do because there is a LOT of all these kinds out there.

BDSM is not about taking turns as you state. What works for some doesn't work for others. Introductions to it often comes through the lighter layers that some people do find uncomfortable. Examples include spanking (which I've seen classified here as sexual violence) and other forms of agressiveness. A lot of the time, there is no actual intercourse involved with BDSM. It's about one partner placing trust and power in another - though the truth is that the one that is having the acts done on them is the one in control. Safe words and trust is huge in this and if not there, people do not engage in it. Other aspects that lead people into it includes such things as hair pulling, a hand around the neck and so forth.

These things lead many people to try other things that will give them pleasure and achieve that sexual high that they want. They can go from enjoying your usual standard positions regularly but wanting something that they'll classify as "special" with partners. For the majority, it's not a regular thing. BDSM porn, which we've said is not reality, is something that lets people see other things they can do, experiment and try to see what kind of pleasure it gives them.

My own experiences with BDSM came from a younger female partner that had some experiences with it and wanted to try more. It's not always for everyone. While the usual positions were really fun and we were strongly connected there, she also really enjoyed the forcefulness of BDSM that can come into play, with being slapped across the face one that took me some time to adjust to. There's a trust that comes from that when your partner teaches you what makes them feel good and that they trust you enough to do it right and safely. That person I have long since felt that I knew and connected with better than any of my other sexual partners because of what we experienced.

[marions ghost]

270. Thanks

Good insights & explanation. Props for discussing and not just blowing off & dismissing anybody who has a problem with this...I am more enlightened, but have thoughts causing some cognitive dissonance on reading your post:

1. I think that fantasy often meshes with reality. Often.

2. I didn't say BDSM is about taking turns. I said "trust exercises" usually involve taking turns. So I don't see BDSM as simply a different kind of trust exercise. It's not that benign. It can easily go wrong. I don't buy that the one having the acts done on them is always the one in control. Maybe in the "nice" world, but there's the Not nice world...which I do think this type of porn feeds...some people take things literally and pattern themselves on aggressive behavior for wicked bad reasons. I think it's fair to say that male dominating female is still the more common scenario in porn, and that it is the more dangerous combination, the most socially sanctioned, and the one that can turn from fun to abuse very quickly. It is the thin line that gives the thrill obviously.

3. People who "enjoy the forcefulness," being slapped across the face --this is very hard to imagine, unless you like all forms of punishment which doesn't seem too healthy and certainly seems to stem from feelings of guilt or low self esteem. Usually it's the domain of the downtrodden or previously abused or neglected--there may be better ways of working that out than by just getting beaten over and over again.

4. And for those who enjoy hitting and humiliating people, maybe it would be more honorable to take up karate or some sport where you can get the pent-up aggressions out without humiliating and fostering a state of subjugation in the other? Not sure I buy that this is a good way for the dominator to learn self-control, ie. how to inflict less hurt rather then more hurt. As in karate, some people are not good students.

Thx for your honest reply.

[Blue_Adept]

273. No problem. Discussion is what it should be all about.

I don't enjoy talking past people. I get more than enough of that from family members.

With #2, it may seem that way because that's what you see on the bulk of adult sites out there since they're mostly your straight guys going to them to watch stuff. But you can't go by the big sites as a barometer of what's there because there's hundreds of thousands of adult sites out there and BDSM stuff tends to find itself there for the most part.

With #3, it's hard to imagine for a lot of people because it just seems wrong without having tried it. It may not seem healthy to people who haven't tried it or are inclined towards it. But we all have our preferences and it's been studied a lot about how so many different things can stimulate people. There are a good many people who have zero interest in adult toys and find that to be unnatural or have other issues with them. And that's not even going into the people that have the quasi-rape-fantasies out there, which I've experienced as well. That's a whole separate kettle of fish but it factors into that whole trust, safety and pleasure aspect that some people are simply wired towards.

#4 though, that's where the problem lies. The people involved are ~not~ humiliating anyone. If you're not into it, that's what it looks like. But for those involved, they're getting the sexual release that they crave and their partners are pleasuring them. I can't say that I got a serious sexual thrill about slapping her across the face, but I loved the way that I knew - and saw - just how much it gave her pleasure. It's not pent-up aggressions. It's intimacy. And that part is incredibly hard for a lot of people to understand because they see it as violence.

Which is where I go back to the whole D&D or comic book analogy where such fun games or activites were viewed by people as fostering violence and hate and murder or with the comics, turning our youth into criminals. That perception is not the reality and it's not an easy thing to figure out unless you actively try it or are involved in it.

[Warren DeMontague]

83. Interesting read.

Thanks.

[Mike Nelson]

88. That's fine for her but...

...it's automatically public, especially in a college! If it's porn for sale, it's not private.

[El_Johns]

190. +1.

[reformist2]

94. In 30 years this is how a lot of people will make it through college, if nothing is done about tuiti

[B Calm]

107. Capitalism works for her. .

I guess, or up until she gets aids.

[Wolf Frankula]

111. Sly Stallone Once made a Porn Flick

Later he was asked why he did it. His answer, "I needed to pay the rent."

Wolf

[edbermac]

117. It was probably the climax of his acting career.

Before moving on to such classics like Rhinestone, Lock Up and Stop! Or My Mom Will Shoot!

I kid. He was good in Rocky. Nighthawks and Cop Land were pretty good also.

[Egalitarian Thug]

143. Chuck Connors did gay porn while he was waiting to become Chuck Connors.

[El_Johns]

195. I doubt it. He played pro & semi-pro baseball until 1952 and started acting in 1952, getting

one or more parts every year afterward.

He always had jobs, so why would he act in gay porn, which if discovered certainly would have destroyed any career in pro baseball (which he had, briefly) at that time?

And having made it into legit pictures, why would he do porn, especially gay porn, in the 50s?

[Egalitarian Thug]

423. Doubt what you like, I've seen one of them and knew the

guy that he made it for. He, like Chuck, is dead now, so there's nothing to expose anymore.

[El_Johns]

424. I will. I looked up some stills on the net & I still doubt it.

[Egalitarian Thug]

426. You do know that the world existed for billions of years before the web existed, right?

It doesn't matter at all whether you "believe" something did or didn't happen, but this bizarre notion that the web gives one access to the sum of human endeavor is dangerous and dumb.

Nothing digital is permanent and no networked computer is secure, so where does that leave one that depends entirely on the web for their information?

[El_Johns]

427. i should believe you instead. whatever.

[Egalitarian Thug]

428. Apparently, you missed the part where your belief is irrelevant.

Whatever is the problem, but it doesn't effect my life in any way at all. I mistakenly thought you might be interested in some trivial reality.

Tom Cruise is totally straight as well.

[Captain Stern]

113. Good for her.

She's getting a degree from Duke University, and paying her own way.

I wish her much success.

[JJChambers]

116. Bravo!

This is beautiful young woman who is an excellent written, empowers and advocates for women everywhere. Some of the DU fake feminists could learn a thing or two from her; this is a REAL feminist.

[WinkyDink]

130. Don't know about the porno, but she's excellent at promo.

[Xyzse]

134. I will just wish her well.

I hope things work out for her.

It sucks that education is so expensive. I am glad that she has found the experience for her fulfilling and supportive.

I do however agree that she should have her privacy and not have to deal with the public shaming of others.
Saying that, I respect her privacy and outing her this way is just such a jerk thing to do.

What were they thinking? That by bullying her, it would co-erce her to do things for them? That is a disgusting power play.

[Niceguy1]

144. she is hardly the first person

To pay for college by being a sex worker... don't see what the hubbub is about???????????

[scallywagy]

148. Message deleted by DU the Administrators

[Texasgal]

152. How sad.

Sad that she has to use her body to get an education. Says alot about us Americans.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

180. She isn't ashamed.

What's sad is the "liberal" Puritan class who think that they should be able to control what she does with her own body, and think it's ok to shame her if she doesn't live up to their standards.

[sufrommich]

218. Heterosexual porn is comically sexist,my views

on it have nothing to do with the individual actors or being a prude. Hetero porn promotes the concept of sexual shame regarding so called promiscuous women,that's why it's filled with references to "naughty girls" and "bad girls".It reinforces gender stereotypes that haven't changed in the porn business for fifty years.I think a lot of people like to concentrate on the rights of women to make porn because focusing on the message that porn promotes isn't so easy to defend. Hetero porn is a throwback to the 1950s and depicts women about as realistically as Amos and Andy depict black people.

[KittyWampus]

333. your post really has me thinking. Usually porn threads on DU degenerate into stupid///

this one somehow managed to elicit some interesting stuff.

You are correct about the naughty girl stereotype and the implications of applying it to porn participants.

And it is less convenient trying to defend that stereotype.

Hmmm.

And to compare the derogatory female stereotype in the majority of porn to Amos/Andy… quite thought provoking.

[penultimate]

185. Is it much different than the college football star who destroys his body

so that he can get scholarship? How about the factory worker who risks cutting of their fingers in dangerous machines so they can get through college? How about the kid who scrubs toilets to pay his tuition, or someone who clears out sewage clogs out of city pipes? How about those people who wave signs on the side of the road dressed up in silly costumes? People do jobs that some people might find dangerous or degrading, because that's what options they have. Should all those jobs go away because some may not want to do them?

[Skittles]

191. hey, if someone wants to do porn, more power to them

but don't try to tell me that sucking a stranger's dick is on the same par as playing football or working in a factory or performing janitorial duties...........just don't

[RandySF]

198. I respect her decision to make porn, but I question her expectation of privacy.

Going in front of the camera pretty much kills one's realistic expectation of privacy. Adult film workers deal with this every day. Fortunately, she seems prepared to deal with any fallout. Too bad we've reached the point where people have to make these kinds of decision to pay for college.

[PowerToThePeople]

200. this whole thread makes me vomit

ThIs story is a picture if a failed economic system. I can not believe many if the responses I read here. Is this vulture-capitalism underground now?

[deutsey]

216. Yeah, I'm reminded of the Breaking Bad (Canada) meme

[Prophet 451]

203. And she instantly gets judged for it here

A woman who chooses to do porn = "she must be mentally ill" or "she must have been abused". All assumptions that infantilise a woman and assume that she's incapable of freely choosing to make a different choice to ourselves.

[NCTraveler]

205. Would be interesting to have her come back in 10 years and discuss the same thing. nt.

[marions ghost]

217. It would be

she's obviously smart and could have some interesting insights by then. A lot changes in the twenties decade. I think we underestimate how all of our experiences change us, and come back for the rest of our lives.

[user_name]

206. If she wants to make a porn - fine, but

don't use the excuse of paying for her college education. Dike offers free tuition for students whose families make under $65k per year, plus excellent financial aid based on need for families making more. All WITHOUT student loans. I think that paying for her education is just an excuse.

[zazen]

213. I agree, though it's 16k in student loans, to be exact, but that's still generous

I'm extremely familiar with their financial aid packages and I do think the reason provided is an excuse for something she's doing for other reasons, because otherwise she's been given false info by the financial aid office (and they wouldn't do that). I'm not qualified to identify and assess her other motives.

I also know that porn doesn't pay any better (1k/film?) as some of the lucrative summer internships that Duke helps one land (15-25k/summer), in addition to the really great work study opportunities that pay far more than minimum wage. (Of course, some people might feel that working on Wall St. is another form of prostitution. Or pimping in training. I'll refrain from opining about that too.) From a financial perspective, being an escort on Sugar Daddy would probably be more lucrative and much less public.

I hope people will just leave her alone. Given the amount of sexting, live video sex scenes, shared recordings, etc., these days, the line between "porn" and many females' personal lives of deliberate or unintentional sexual objectification has become blurred.

I just don't see what's the big deal, except to the frat boys. For some reason, some guys just go nuts about "porn stars" when they could be sleeping with someone even more conventionally attractive in their own life. Something about knowing everyone else is watching her makes the ultimate trophy. That's what grosses me out and frankly angers me more than anything else.

It also reminds me about that scene toward the end of Boogie Nights, where the skate-girl is harassed in class by a guy familiar with her work. (Of course, she gets a nice revenge.)

See, these guys won't leave her alone, because that's the point. And as much I as abhor violent pornography, she's made an adult choice to participate in a regulated American business, and there are thousands of women in these films. But these guys somehow find it intolerable that she's as brilliant as them and walking among them. It's messing with all of their categories--she's a thing to be whacked off to, but they're being asked to treat her as a peer. It must be driving a lot of them crazy (and according to the students I know there, it is).

[marions ghost]

215. Agree

yeah, paying for college is an excuse. Sure she likes making big money the easy way, but she is not in a desperate situation if she can even go to Duke in the first place.

[My Good Babushka]

238. I don't know why you would assume it's the "easy way"

It's a job and takes a set of skills.
Maybe one day she'll direct. Or have her own film company.

[marions ghost]

259. That's about the saddest thing she said

--that she'd like to get into the industry and change it. Youthful fantasies. This is a ruthless business, all about big bucks. She doesn't strike me as ruthless or even tough enough. She strikes me as naive. Maybe even a dependent or BPD personality, tho would have to have more info to know. The classic case with this kind of thing is just that she's rebelling against her parents, clawing her way to independence. I don't think she is desperate for the money to live or go to school. It's all about ego boosting, like women who do beauty pageants. There is power and narcissistic thrill in making big bucks this way--and it's definitely easy work, compared to what most people find themselves doing. She's being paid more for her ability to ignore the real implication of what she does (for herself and others) than her acting skills. Sure acting can be tiring, but being a porn star doesn't take huge talent.

The likelihood that any porn star could direct--in any male-owned company is low. She would have to forge her own company and if she does a lot of degradation/humiliation, (which is likely) she'd be merely competing with the male-owned production company, so meh, nothing changes. The fact that she sees a need to change it, is indicative. But that's about as far as it goes.

She stands a better chance of selling a tell-all book. She could work that I'm sure. It could become a movie. Breaking into the biz--nah. She'd have to prove it for me to believe it. Not too many pioneers in the field I don't think.

[Captain Stern]

389. Why do you think paying for college is an "excuse"?

From what I read, she's not making any excuses..she's just saying why she's doing it. She enjoys her job. and makes good money at it.

[marions ghost]

407. Looks like I parroted the word excuse,

used by the person I was replying to.

Probably would be better to say "justification." The tuition thing might be a justification she needed to shield her from criticism (about other reasons she might have). I don't really think this has a lot to do with the tuition at Duke--she knew how much it costs when she applied there and we don't know if she's explored all the avenues for funding. Anybody who can even consider going to Duke is not destitute. Doesn't add up.

She says she enjoys her job. Maybe. But many of these girls who engage in these degradation scenarios are damaged by it psychologically and or physically. Why don't you and I check back with her in about 5 years and see how she's doing with it? Porn is not a job without considerable risk, and those involved in it are contributing to images of violence and degradation of women that may have a profoundly negatively effect on some young consumers, at the very least. People are just not as mature as you think. No, we can't stop this, but we don't have to act like everything about it is wonderful and cool. This is a new experiment in social conditioning that may yet backfire.

[Captain Stern]

413. Fair Enough.

I think it will be really interesting to hear what this young lady has to say about this in five, ten, twenty, and thirty years time. She may have some regrets then, or she may not.

But for now, she's an adult. She's been pretty up front about what she's doing and why she's doing it. She absolutely doesn't deserve to be bullied or shamed (not saying you did that, but others have). There are other folks that feel what she is doing is degrading, but I don't think that's her problem...it's theirs.

[marions ghost]

433. "She's an adult"

--she may look like an adult but neuro biologists say the brain areas that involve judgement & decision-making are not fully formed at her age. Most colleges don't consider freshmen adults. Hence the high rate of vehicle, drug/booze and suicide incidents. They're like deer trying to figure out how to cross the road. Some don't make it.

I don't think you can call someone a fully responsible adult until 22-24. There's variability, (plenty are well on the way) but that's the average. She's a kid. And a really naive kid if she thought she could keep this quiet. This is risk-taking daredevil behavior, bad girl style. If it were really OK, it wouldn't be any fun. So she didn't care about any consequences and may even be (at times) enjoying the fame. "I was a Duke porn star"--pretty notorious. If she can suspend belief as well as this, she'll make a good lawyer, ha ha.

There's something complex going on here that's out of the ordinary. Yes, to understand it fully you'd have to catch up with her in a few years. Where are her parents in all this? Did her parents tell her to "go get a job!?" Does she come from a background of neglect or abuse? Is there a narcissism component? Just speculating...we don't know. Maybe she'll write a book. But you may be sure there's more to the story than just--"a girl with a cool well-paid college job..."

Not many at DU would agree with shaming her. Leave that to immature students, who should have more compassion. I have no interest in judging her. But at the same time I won't defend her occupation and I think she is being exploited (porn producers select for the right personality types).

What concerns me most is that what she does creates images of extreme abuse and degradation of women. It is important to realize that violence towards women now constitutes the main theme of porn, which kids see at an early age. This is a new and disturbing social experiment. IMO it mirrors the violence we endure in society now--not only physical violence, but how we are rendered politically powerless and have become pawns in a much bigger game, a game that does not have our best interests at heart. People degenerate into violence as a way of coping with that. And obviously it makes money for a lot of people. Anyway this type of porn is no longer fringe. It's for sure not good clean fun, like old-fashioned porn. The brain registers every image it sees (forever)--you may be perfectly capable of sorting and repressing images, but if you love and respect women, you'll get that this new scenario is dangerous.

As with any information, it's better that we know.

[NaturalHigh]

208. I don't see why she would need to explain it anyway.

It's her choice.

[whistler162]

222. a better question is.....

who cares?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

228. Who cares about anything? Why even get up in the morning? nt

[Savannahmann]

232. Allow me to summarize Public Reaction

Girl does porn. Bad girl, horrible girl, life ruined. Frat Boy watching porn recognizes classmate. Cool guy, destined to be a major force in the world.

Now, my opinion. It would take way too much effort to care less what anyone does. Allow me to paraphrase the Rede. As long as you aren't hurting anyone, do whatever the fuck you want.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

310. Nope. Same thing would've happened if a male student were doing porn - it'd be a scandal up

The issue is not is it a female or is it a male. The issue is, porn, like prostitution, are jobs which involve sex-for-pay, so they are degrading to the human being, to the soul, to the emotions, to everything that the person is.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

245. Shouldn't have clicked on that link at work with other people in full view of my screen.

Oh well ...

This was for educational purposes, right?

[Mosby]

281. Sorry, I hadn't thought about that issue

I updated my OP.

[BainsBane]

252. This woman was outed by a fraternity and is being bullied

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017177861

[Sarah Ibarruri]

303. First, let me say that I know people up at Duke. She is a Republican, anti-feminist, porn star.

She went out with a guy who happened to see her on porn, and asked her point blank to admit she was the porn star. She had to admit it, though it was clear she was public for viewing anyway. She tried to join a sorority and was denied, apparently. What's most remarkable about all this, is that she placed herself in the public eye, but is shocked that the public has noticed. ????? If a Duke dude had been in porn, you betcha it would've spread around Duke like wildfire. Duke is a small community.

[BainsBane]

307. I think this serves as an example

of shaming of women's expressions of sexuality. I have a lot of issues with porn related to the objectification of women; the porn industry's relationship to human trafficking--slavery; and poor treatment of workers. However, a woman also has a right to take a job in the sex industry without being shamed for it. I don't care for the wars and military, but I still support rights of women in the armed forces. The same goes for porn workers. I think we should be careful not to blame women for what is essentially sexist shaming of their sexuality. I would guess that guys like this also shame women who have sex with them, or perhaps even women they have raped. (No, I'm not accusing them of being rapists. I'm just observing a general phenomenon that we know occurs). I am not going to shame a woman for her choices in life, even if I disagree with them. I think the far more important issue is the sexism that frames her options and then punishes her for making them.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

316. I disagree with you.

I think the issue here is not, "they're shaming her for her willingness to humiliate herself," though as I mentioned, it's insane that some men view porn daily and thereby promote the thing. I think the issue here is she needs to stop humiliating herself, get herself to a shrink or something, and I'd say this to a guy or girl. Both genders are involved in porn. Porn is a form of degradation for both men and women, just as is prostitution. I'd be all for going after the porn industry itself, but it's the easy availability of workers that makes it difficult to shut down, and the clientele, which is 2 years ago made 13.3 billion dollars, so there are some guys out there clicking in daily for their fix.

Right now, my view of it is that both, porn and prostitution are SEX-FOR-PAY, and both, and if prostitution is illegal, there's absolutely no reason whatsoever why porn should be legal. There's no difference between the two.

[alp227]

320. Do you not believe that consenting adults should be able to make their own sexual decisions?

I think if porn and prostitution were fully criminalized, both industries would be driven further underground and become more dangerous than they already are. Look at the war on drugs. 40 year of failure.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

330. Perhaps what needs to happen is that people need to realize what porn and prostitution does to the

society, and the message it sends. Maybe that alone will help.

[zazen]

344. well said, as usual n/t

[one_voice]

412. We haven't agreed on much...

but on this..

However, a woman also has a right to take a job in the sex industry without being shamed for it

I'm in 100% agreement with you.

& this too.

I am not going to shame a woman for her choices in life, even if I disagree with them.

[Kurska]

317. Utterly disgusting that people are defending mass stalking of a woman practicing her sexual agency.

[B Calm]

324. She also is a true capitalist! Republican values, lol. .

[Sarah Ibarruri]

328. Republican values to the HILT! And female as object, thrown in for good measure. nt

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

334. LOL. Now you "know people at Duke"

Thank god you've gotten to the bottom of this! You're now a cross between Karen Horney and Miss Marple!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

336. Yup. One is a family member in his freshman year; another is a student who is the child of a friend

In fact, I discussed this over Skype with my family member before any of it came out onto the national media. Does that upset you, somehow?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

338. Funny how you didn't reveal this 24 hours ago

Instead, you declared a woman mentally ill because she chooses a lifestyle and a line of work that repulses you and got appropriately excoriated for it in this thread.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

342. I did in another post. You didn't read it, that's all.

What has one thing to do with the other? There's something you're failing to say.

[Kurska]

315. If true that fraternity needs to be shut down.

This is a disgusting disregard for her right to privacy.

[LisaL]

350. What right to privacy are you talking about?

She is a porn actress. Anybody can buy her movies.

[Kurska]

375. The one where you work shouldn't be used smear you on your college campus.

Oh and people who make porn generally use pseudonyms because of judgmental twats like these frat boys. If she doesn't want her real name to be attached to the film (which is her right) how can you defend publicly outing her?

[LisaL]

391. It's really hard to be "private" when one is having sex on video intended for distribution.

[KittyWampus]

325. So which is it? Author does it for fulfillment or for the tuition money?

Guess it can be both but still….

I find it interesting the essay begins with Duke University/Tuition.

And then several paragraphs later throws out:

1.not ashamed
2. self fulfillment
3. don't want anyone to know

I don't know, if you are making money as a porn participant, can you really expect privacy on that matter?

Everyone who recognizes is bound to keep mum or not mention it?

I don't think those who have a genuine aptitude for higher education should have to resort to porn for tuition.

[bravenak]

337. Porn is not empowering.

I have seen movies being filmed, a girl who I worked with needed somebody to go with her to watch her back.

It took hours, they kept telling her to move this way, lift your leg up higher, suck it deeper, stop gagging. When she complained that she was getting sore, she got a half an hour to rest, before they pounded into her flesh even harder than before.

She said she liked doing it, and she did it for a while. I could tell by watching her tear up during filming that she felt degraded. And the way they talk to the ' talent' is unbelievable.

Now, she's completely messed up from the experience and it takes a lot of work to get her to feel comfortable enough to take her clothes off in front of her husband. And for some reason she cant get pregnant, I don't know if it's because of the recurring infections or something else, but she blames the porn.

[LisaL]

346. Did she get any STDs while doing it?

Her tubes could be blocked if so.

[bravenak]

352. Bacterial infections every single time. BV or trichomoniasis.

And yes, I believe she said her tubes are blocked and there's a lot of scar tissue.

[LisaL]

354. IVF should still work if her tubes are blocked.

[bravenak]

357. Very expensive.

I think she's saving though. It's complicated.

[marions ghost]

348. Thanks

for making what we all know is the down side of the porn industry real.

[bravenak]

356. It's horrible.

And lots of those girls have pimps that sit right there and watch them work and take the money.

[marions ghost]

358. Nice

I take it they're in a desperate situation, not so many options. And not getting a law degree from Duke at the same time, I wouldn't think. I don't want to put down the Duke student any more than she is being put down, but people who consume porn do need to realize that for some sex workers, the picture is not so fabulous. They need a union.

[bravenak]

364. I'd take a union over a pimp any day.

At least they could get medical coverage and workers comp. they're mostly 1099 workers and not employees so they don't have many rights.

Yes, they need a union.

[My Good Babushka]

429. I agree with that. nt.

[marions ghost]

434. OK

Thx

[cui bono]

395. This is what people need to hear who think it's simply having sex in front of a camera.

It's a job. It's work. It's not like she's just having an enjoyable sexual experience and there happens to be cameras there. And all that you described is happening in front of a crew, however small that crew may be.

Sorry your friend is dealing with the repercussions of that.

[bravenak]

409. It's the hardest work I have ever seen.

I can't watch porn to this day. I can't.

[TNLib]

367. I think this person is just another victim

to a failed system were a student can't get a decent education unless her family is wealthy and one that puts greater value of sexual exploitation of women than working a job were she wouldn't have to be concerned about privacy or being harassed.

The sex industry, porn or prostitution is brutal and I feel sorry that this person had to go this route to get the education she wanted.

[Tanuki]

385. But, she has said that she turned down a full tuition scholarship to Vanderbilt!

I think she could have got a pretty good education there.
http://www.realcleareducation.com/articles/2014/02/25/blue_devil_the_duke_porn_star_and_college_costs_885.html

..."I was offered scholarships at a lot of places. I was offered full tuition at Vanderbilt, for example, and was accepted into USC, Wellesley, Barnard, Pepperdine, some others. But I visited Duke last year on Blue Devil Days [Duke's programmed weekend for admitted freshmen], and I remember walking into the Duke Chapel -- I'm a very spiritual person -- and just feeling an energy that told me, "This is the place you need to be." And I felt something in the chapel in that moment that told me that I needed to be here and go to Duke and it was something that would be an amazing experience for me."

There is something about all of this that doesn't quite add up.

[polly7]

432. Because everyone is entitled to certain privacy that protects them

from bullying and harassment, no matter what their profession.

[marions ghost]

435. Bullying of course is wrong

but have you noticed that we all have virtually no privacy now? Entitled to it sure, but we don't have it. This is a good example of how obsolete the idea of privacy really is--and that IS a big problem. I also think, at some level the student knew this could come out, and she was willing to take the risk.

No she doesn't deserve to be punished for it. She gets punished in her job. Compassion is in order.

[polly7]

436. I disagree.

She says she's proud of her job. Unless you somehow sneak you way into her head, you have no right to suggest otherwise. Empathy is in order, and definitely, compassion for her for all of the judgmental, wanna-be psychiatrists who feel they know better of what she wants than she does and call her horrible things.

Good for her. She's doing exactly with her body as she chooses. I also, hope she doesn't suffer for it, but as of now - she's entitled to the same privacy and respect as anyone else doing a job you might not approve of.

[marions ghost]

437. I don't think you know her

and neither to I. But it's still OK to speculate about this whole issue. To discuss the issue doesn't mean passing a judgement on her. She could be my sister, my daughter, my friend. I don't judge her. I do happen to know people who have done similar things as this girl and I have seen how/why in general they do it. It's not her fault that there is no privacy around the subject of her job. But she really had no reason to expect it, since none of us has real privacy anymore.

I think it's important to ask--what is this industry about and what does the depiction of violence and degradation of women mean if it is widely disseminated to children and teens (and immature or violent adults)? No, I'm not calling for censorship. I'm just asking people to think about it. Does it matter the condition of sex workers and how they are treated by a society that thrives on them? No harm done to the student in this speculation. In fact, if I saw this girl face-to face I would thank her for drawing attention to the problem of this "new norm" in porn that degrades women, and also to the problem of privacy.

This young woman likely went into this without knowing the ramifications of the long term mental and physical health effects that are reported by sex workers. The fact that there are so few protections for such a high risk job is appalling. She naively seems to believe that this has no impact on her law aspirations. Oh sure, it seems empowering at the time. But is it really empowering or is it exploitation? Is it just bad girl daredevil behavior, or is she pioneering new options for student employment?

There are questions that can be asked without casting blame on the girl.

[polly7]

438. I don't know her at all.

I support her right as an autonomous human being to do what she pleases with her life.

[marions ghost]

439. Consider that in some cases

in life, people are not what you would call "autonomous." They are manipulated. Just saying...would need to hear her thoughts about it a few years down the road, her own assessment, when she's over the hurdle into real adulthood. To really know.

But OK we'll leave it at that.

[alp227]

444. Thanks MIRT & jury!

I alerted. Thankfully the jury & MIRT saw through this troll's tactics.

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

- This is the user's SECOND post on this thread (1) outing the Duke student doing porn and (2) spamming what's apparently his own gossip blog.

The Duke Chronicle noted in its profile about the student, "The stage name of the first-year porn star was also changed so that it could not be traced back to her true identity." http://www.dukechronicle.com/articles/2014/02/14/portrait-porn-star

The DU TOS say, "Do not post or link to any private/personal information about any person, even if it is publicly available elsewhere on the Internet."

Even more egregious than outing the Duke student, this link supposedly contains "naked pictures" of the student, violating the TOS, "Do not post or link to pornography."

Thus, this message (and this user's other post with the student's stage name and link to the scallwag blog) need to be deleted for spamming the site with porn and violating the duke student's privacy.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Thu Feb 27, 2014, 06:27 PM, and voted 6-0 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agreed. Her name has not been released by the mainstream media.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I originally voted to keep it but changed it to block due to the link.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Stage name or not, assumed name or not, it seems that this woman has made clear in her interviews that she does not want her personal and professional lives mixed - for very good reason, given the harassment she's received. This poster is clearly violating that privacy, perhaps linking to porn, and blog-flogging on top of it all.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you.

Here lies a disruptor. He disrupted...poorly.

[polly7]

445. .........

I thought I'd been given the old heave-ho! Then wondered why I could still see me.

You scared me!

[LittleBlue]

442. Maybe she didn't want to be a poor student

Kind of reinforces the idea that she did it out of choice. If there were scholarship options available, and she still chose porn, it's obviously something she wanted to do.

Yet if there is no shame to this (as 'Lauren' insists, and there ought not to be) then why all the secrecy.... until now?

There might not be any shame for her, but perhaps she just doesn't want to take the abuse from others.

[alp227]

443. Troll-b-GONE!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=265003&sub=trans