For fuck's sake, DU. Neo-Nazis have *not* seized power in Ukraine.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

I repeat, Neo-Nazis have not seized power in Ukraine.

There is a ultra-nationalist party in the Rada, the Ukrainian parliment, called Svoboda.

They represent approximately 8% of the entire Rada.

For comparison, members of the U.S. House of Representatives who identify themselves as members of the Tea Party constitute 11% of the House.

The acting President, Aleksandr Turchinov, is not a member of Svoboda.

Neither is Vitali Klitschko, one of the key leaders in the opposition and a possible leading Presidential contender.

Neither is Yulia Tymschenko, the former Prime Minister who was jailed by Yanukoych, who is also a possible leading Presidential contender.

Former President Yanukovych's own party, the Party of Regions, has disavowed him.

Don't take this personally, but read--just fucking read--before you post shit on here.

Jesus shit.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

1. bump. nt

[MADem]

78. It's obvious that there is a pot stirring agenda amongst those making these spurious claims.

Some people just aren't happy unless DU is aflame.

[Ex Lurker]

93. Some DUers seem to be against the Ukrainian Revolution out of Soviet nostalgia

Meanwhile, some Freepers are against it because Putin keeps the gays in line. What a world.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

109. I certainly hope this is not the case.

Even for avowed Western communists in the vein of Marx and Engels, they should know that Sovietism was simple a brutal authoritarian regime under the guise of Marxism meant to reshape and extend the life of the old Russian Empire. There was nothing nostalgic or romantic about it.

I don't think that's the case here, even with our resident communists. At least I hope not.

[MicaelS]

115. Hugo Chavez is dead, so the

"Blame America First, Last and Always" types have to find someone new to be their champion. That person is Putin. He is seen as "standing up to the evil USA." No matter how big a tyrant he is in reality.

[rdharma]

118. "Blame America First, Last and Always types", eh?

Spoken like a true RWer!

[Pretzel_Warrior]

121. such clarity of thought when confronted with knee-jerk hatred of all that is U.S. interest

in the world can be expressed by people of all political persuasions.

[rdharma]

123. I think that expression "Blame America First Crowd" was coined by the RW.

I've never heard it used by progressives.

It's kind of a dog whistle. Like using the word "democrat" where "democratic" should be used.

Know what I mean?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

124. that's possible. but they didn't copyright it...and it is an apt description for some

[rdharma]

125. No copyright needed......

The RW owns it...... period.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

126. clearly not because I've never been RW. Have always been registered DEM

and have used it. Based on that fact and my belief I am not alone as a moderate/progressive Dem having used that term, the RW doesn't own it.

[rdharma]

127. Maybe you've just been listening to too much RW talk radio ......

.... and adopted some of their terminology. Maybe...........

[Pretzel_Warrior]

128. I abhor right wing talk radio. never listen to it. the most I've heard is on links here at DU

or Media Matters on my Facebook feed.

My radio is predominantly set to public radio with NPR/PRI programming or music stations.

[rdharma]

129. You abhor right wing talk radio?

Well, then that establishes your bona fides for sure!

[davidpdx]

96. Oh come on

We are all suppose to kiss Putin's fungus covered feet.

[GP6971]

2. Very interesting events going on

in the Ukraine. We pulled our people out in early October.....glad they are not there now.

One of guys sent me a French photographers book of the Orange Revolution.....I pulled it out and a lot of the names of today are still there.

Bottom line is where will Putin go with all this. I think the US will stay out of it........not so sure about the EU

[kelliekat44]

67. Lots of info out there about the neo-Nazi connection to the turmoil in Ukraine.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100260665/ukraine-the-opposition-arent-all-angels-some-are-neo-nazis/

They may not have seized power...yet... but the RW extremists are influencing much of what is going on there.

[okaawhatever]

3. Agreed. Too many are falling for the pro-Russia propaganda out there. It's disgraceful. I can't

believe how many people are falling for the lies hook, line and sinker.

Note to everyone. The neo-conservatives in America actually worked for Yanukovych. McCain's former campaign manager helped his most recent campaign and the firm hired to "investigate" Yulia is former Reagan administration who also defended Aldrich Ames and Hanssen. For those who want to claim the neo-cons are behind the opposition movement here is just one article:

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/us-firms-hired-for-probe-67370.html




Give it a rest people. Educate yourselves. The people claiming neo-Nazi's are taking over are likely Putin's spokespeople.

[newthinking]

24. No, that is absolutely not true. We move as the wind blows but

in general the US prefers to support Western Ukraine.

I would not say neo-nazi's are taking over Ukraine, but they are being given a seat at the table. And the groups that have taken over are heavily right wing.

I support Ukraine to join the EU. They will hopefully eventually have a better life that way. But I am not for a minute fooled by the west press version of what has happened. Putin is wrong about a lot of things, but he is right that we have essentially overlooked what was a coup by a collation that does not represent the majority in the country. And this will not be a smooth transition for that reason. By breaking the agreement and taking control undemocratically, they placed a huge burden on their future. It will follow the next government and make re-unification very difficult.

[tabasco]

51. LOL!

Dictator Rooty Poot crying for democracy! How special!

[freshwest]

34. Anything McCain supports abroad is likely to enrich his MIC buddies. Like he did in Syria.

He's always been for sale. His on and off again support for gays (remember his speech against lifting DADT?) may get him some kudos, but he's not trustworthy, sad to say.

As for his immigration stance, I take that with a grain of salt. Likely he wants cheap labor with no rights attached.

He also has a bad rep with the native tribes in AZ.

Never forget he gave us Palin, the horror that never ends.

Thanks for the information on this, but I still hold that not all revolutions are from the left.

But then again, we may be trying to fit the whole world into our view of politics, and it may not work.

It's up to the peoples of the world to decide how to live.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

37. He's a doddering old man, just 1 of 100 US Senators and a failed presidential candidate.

I seriously doubt John McCain has significant geopolitical sway in the world.

[freshwest]

43. It still troubles me that he goes about the world making deals. He has no right to do so. n/t

[arendt]

46. He's a doddering old weathervane. If he's for it, its probably neocon-backed. n/t

[merrily]

101. A man well over 70 giving us Palin helped put Obama over the top in 2008.

And helped make the Republicans seem more trifling than ever. I thank him for naming Palin before vetting her.

[Adrahil]

4. You must be one dem dar corporatist puppets... or something...

I swear to Jeebus, every time I think the nuts are all on the other side, someone has to remind me I'm wrong. Thanks for positing. Either that or we really are over run by kremlin stooges. I'm not sure which would be worse.

[Drale]

5. I was under the impression

this entire thing started when Yanukoych turned to Russia instead of the EU like the majority of the protesters wanted and it only got worst from there.

[Adrahil]

8. Yes, but apparently, only super fascists want to get closer to Europe... or something. NT

[arendt]

44. Some people don't want to sign up to be Greece 2...

The EU deal was debt slavery for the Ukraine. It was an austerity-based deal.

There was a lot of opposition to it on ECONOMIC grounds.

But the POLITICAL issue of EU vs Russia came into it; and all of the sudden, I am supposed to cheer for another southeastern European country being fed to the EU financial meatgrinder?

You can red-bait or Russki-bait all you wånt. If the choice were obvious, the country wouldn't be such a mess.

[Adrahil]

107. I didn't ask you to cheer either way....

... but saying the country is about to become a Neo-Nazi state is just asinine.

[bvar22]

119. Is saying that the Ukraine might fall into the hands of Right Wing Extremists OK?

Can we say that the rise of Right Wing Extremism (NeoNazism) in the Ukraine,
and their recent political GAINS is something that we find frightening?
Is THAT OK with you?

Will you let us know what is OK to post at DU,
...what is "asinine" and what is not?

I really want to check with you first,
because we all know that the rise of a Racist/Authoritarian government during hard economic times could NEVER happen in Eastern Europe.
Right?

Have Ukraine's protests been taken over by this ultra-right-wing group?

Inside the Soviet-era office building that has been seized as a barracks for protest organizers and guards, the fifth floor is blocked, from the moment you attempt to step off the elevator, by a phalanx of grim-faced men in camouflage fatigues, brush cuts and Mohawks, many of them holding iron bars or other improvised weapons. They don’t want visitors.

This is the headquarters of Pravy Sektor, or Right Sector, the ultra-right-wing movement, described by some as fascist, whose hundreds of soldiers (they call themselves an army) have become the sharp edge of the two-month-old protest movement that has upturned the politics of Ukraine, cost several lives and forced President Viktor Yanukovych to dismiss the government and promise to reform the constitution.

<more>

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/ultra-right-wing-movement-has-become-sharp-
edge-of-ukraine-protests/article16761189/

Ukraine in meltdown as protests hijacked by right-wing extremists
http://www.worldreview.info/content/ukraine-meltdown-protests-hijacked-right-wing-extremists

Friday 24 January 2014 Ukraine
Ukraine: far-right extremists at core of 'democracy' protest

In December US senator John McCain travelled to Ukraine to offer his support to the opposition, appearing on stage with leaders of the three opposition parties leading the protests - including the far-right Svoboda party.

Svoboda is currently Ukraine's fourth biggest party and holds 36 seats in parliament. It is also part of the Alliance of European National Movements, along with the BNP and Hungary's Jobbik.

Svoboda leader Oleh Tyahnybok is one of the faces of the protests, appearing regularly along with opposition leader and former boxer Vitali Klitschko (see picture right) voicing opposition to Putin's influence over the region.

However, Tyahnybok has provoked controversy in the past with his anti-Semitic claims that a "Moscow-Jewish mafia" controls Ukraine.

http://www.channel4.com/news/kiev-svoboda-far-right-protests-right-sector-riot-police

For more bone chilling information,
Google : Tyahnybok and The Svoboda Party


Nothing to see here, folks,
because its "asinine" if you are worried about the increasing political power of a Far Right Wing Political Party in Eastern Europe.
Everybody just move along.

[arendt]

136. Thank you for more detail than I would have bothered with. n/t

[EmilyAnne]

75. Neo-nazis love the EU, didn't you know? nt

[MADem]

79. Thread WINNER! nt

[GRACIEBIRD]

6. Let me educate a little

Western Ukraine is full of anti-Russian sentiment. This anti-Russian sentiment is often spearheaded by right wing groups including neo-nazi's, nationalist party, anti-communist/bolshevik holdovers and just people who are just pissed off about a century of Russian abuse.

This coup has been executed by hooligans hiding behind innocent and naive peace loving democracy yearning Ukrainians.

Ukraine has been on the short end of Russia's stick for a long time... this isn't going to end well. At best Putin will cut Ukraine free, call for debt to be paid and double gas prices and discontinue food imports. The USA and EU better prepare to write some big checks to prevent people from starving.

Oh and just to help out... it's pronounced:

Yanna-KOH-vich

[Tommy_Carcetti]

11. Yeah. I have a Ukrainian born mother and multiple cousins currently living in Ukraine.

No offense, I don't need your "education."

[GRACIEBIRD]

12. and I've lived in Russia, spent time in Kjiv... so?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

13. So don't talk down to me like I don't know shit. nt

[GRACIEBIRD]

14. can we at least agree

that the "muscle" behind the coup was rightwing thugs?

Don't get me wrong... Ukraine has been victimized for decades and the great famine is one of the worst Genocides in World History, so I'm not a pro-Russian in this context. But like all revolutions (look at Arab Spring) some unsavory elements have taken advantage.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

15. No, the muscle in the movement was a large swath of the Ukranian people.

Yes, there were some right wing hooligans in the mix. Unfortunately.

No, they were not the reason the Yanukovych regime was toppled.

It was a transcendental movement.

[GRACIEBIRD]

18. by muscle I meant who was carrying the GUNS and throwing the bombs and taking police prisoner. nt

[GRACIEBIRD]

19. also this article has some great background

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/ukraine-sliding-towards-civil-war-in-wake-of-tough-new-laws-a-945742.html

He is among the leaders of the right-wing nationalist Svoboda (Freedom) Party, which has formed a coalition with former heavyweight boxing champion Vitali Klitschko's Udar Party, along with jailed former leader Yulia Tymoshenko's Fatherland Party, against President Viktor Yanukovich.

The Svoboda party also has excellent ties to Europe, but they are different from the ones that Klischko might prefer. It is allied with France's right-wing Front National and with the Italian neo-fascist group Fiamma Tricolore. But when it comes to the oppression of homosexuality, representative Myroshnychenko is very close to Russian President Vladimir Putin, even if he does all he can to counter Moscow's influence in his country.

[2naSalit]

28. And so this might be of interest...

the EU and US are NOW trying to get the Ukraine gov't to accept funds via the IMF. Bad idea for Ukraine and they have been smart to turn previous offers down... which may be the reason for the financial problems to date.

You see, the IMF requires a certain reform package whereby IMF determines what kinds of austerity measures will take place whether the general population want them or not, just to get loans that will sink the country eventually because... austerity that cripples democracy. Funny thing, that. It's double-speak at best. The Eu via Germany or the US via IMF = same demon, different country of origin, same austerity in the end, either way, it's a bad deal. Not that Russia has a diferent offer, it's probably the same game plan, it's what we did to Chile and the rest of South and Central Americas as well as Poland and numerous other countries when they thought they won the battle for democracy.

For reference, watch some of these...

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=confessions%20of%20an%20economic%20hitman&sm=1

Then think about what you were saying here.

[El_Johns]

40. There's some background to that:

Published: November 22, 2013

MOSCOW — Prime Minister Mykola Azarov of Ukraine told enraged opposition lawmakers on Friday that his government’s decision to walk away from far-reaching political and trade agreements with the European Union was based on fiscal imperatives, and ultimately prompted by the International Monetary Fund’s overly harsh terms for an aid package.

The accords with Europe were due to be signed next week at a major conference in Vilnius, Lithuania. Opposition leaders furious over the decision called for the resignation of the Ukrainian government, for the impeachment of President Viktor F. Yanukovich and for mass protests across the country. Many also blamed Russia for pressuring Ukraine to scuttle the deals.

Ukraine is facing severe economic problems and is expected to soon need financial assistance of $15 billion or more. On Friday in Parliament, where Mr. Azarov appeared with other government ministers, he said that the conditions for aid from the West were too stiff and that Ukraine needed to take steps to improve its economic relationship with Russia.

“The I.M.F. position presented in the letter dated Nov. 20 was the last straw,” Mr. Azarov said. “This decision is hard, but it’s the only one possible in the economic situation in Ukraine.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/23/world/europe/ukraine-blames-imf-for-collapse-of-accord-with-european-union.html?_r=0

[2naSalit]

74. Thanks for that.

I wasn't sure who was for what exactly but I know how the IMF works. In the US what we hear is that it's the savior of nations but it's actually the opposite. They are, at least, aware of what the IMF does and how it can betray them to their ruin.

I hope it works out the best way possible for them. Hegemony sucks and it seems that's what we're all about. I only folks here could see why we had the crash of '08. It's the same game plan.

[go west young man]

56. Interesting article here from Asia times Online

that paints a realistic picture of eventual outcomes. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-240214.html

Careful what you wish for in Ukraine

Excerpt:

Moscow has no need of allies with weak stomachs. But it will withdraw the offer of $15 billion worth of Ukrainian debt purchases and subsidies for natural gas exports to Ukraine and leave the nearly bankrupt country to the ministrations of the West. Careful what you wish for, Russia is telling the West.

Russian Finance Minister Anton Siluanov said that Ukraine should get money from the International Monetary Fund: "We consider that such a situation would meet the interests of Ukraine, would put the country on the path toward major structural reforms. We wish them success in this undertaking and in the rapid stabilization of the political and social situation."

Siluanov is being mischievous. Twice in the past six years, the IMF suspended promised loans to Ukraine after the country refused to cut salaries and pensions and raise energy prices. Russia had offered a loan without conditions; any money the West offers will require austerity measures that no Ukrainian government is capable of enforcing.

The fall of Yanukovich is an embarrassment to Russia, and a well-deserved one, but that does not leave Russia entirely without options. Russia most likely will adopt the same stance towards pro-European Union politicians that the Egyptian military and its Saudi backers took toward Egypt's the Muslim Brotherhood: let the opposition take the blame for economic and social chaos, and then move in when the country is on its knees. The Brotherhood ruled Egypt for a year, and then the food and fuel ran out, 30 million Egyptians, more than half the country's adult population, demonstrated to oust it. The military obliged in August 2013 and immediately obtained emergency loans from the Saudis.

[go west young man]

59. Also South Stream (oil pipeline) bypassing Ukraine

is due to come on line in 2015. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia–Ukraine_gas_disputes Russia is sure to wipe out any gas agreements they may have had at this point. I see a similar scenario to the Orange Revolution happening except with more hard right-wingers involved. Then the whole thing will probably swing back towards Russia as it did after the Orange revolution due to economic woes. The US and Europe are definitely going to want their loans repaid and that will be near impossible in a collapsing economy. This situation looks dire for the innocent people just trying to get by in Ukraine. I see long term upheaval similar to Egypt. The best result would probably be if the Russian side and the EU side divided into two new countries.

[XRubicon]

95. Wait, Weird Al is involved too???

I knew it... They wouldn't listen, now everyone knows.

[Fumesucker]

7. I barely understand politics in *this* country after paying attention for a long, long time

Certainly not going to delude myself that I know jack squat about politics in Ukraine.

[brooklynite]

9. I think some people here are so anti American Government...

...(and anti President Obama), that they leap to the conclusion that any political unrest must be our fault somehow.

[okaawhatever]

21. Absolutely and it's really showing in this instance. The pro-Russian papers are behind the

claims that neo-Nazi's are forming the new government, so it's interesting to see whose reading pro-Russian papers and sites. This issue has truly separated the Reuters, BBC, NPR readers from the RT, Socialist of the World website readers. It's quite scary but it sure has cleared up a lot for me.

[arendt]

36. Its like the CIA never existed. Never sponsored any coups...

Never did anything in Guatamala, Iran, Chile, Argentina, the Dominican Republic, Indonesia.

Or more recently, did nothing in Libya or Syria. Or had nothing to do with the "color revolutions, one of which happened in the Ukraine.

Get real. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to not buy the official line of bullshit about this being about freedom. Our propaganda on this is every bit as suspect as the Russian propaganda. And the situation on the ground is unknowable.

Its about freedom when the gangsters are on our side. When they are on the other side, they are terrorists.

Everybody should stop making pronouncements, based on their ancestry or the fact they might have visited the place for a short time. This is a mess. It is not black or white.

Pardon me for not checking my life experience at the door.

[brooklynite]

72. Right. Eisenhower...Nixon...Reagan...Obama. You can hardly tell them apart.....

[arendt]

135. Gee, Obama has had 2 GOP Secs of Defense...

His mouthy (Fuck the EU) ambassador, Victoria Nuland, just happens to be married to uber-neocon, Robert Kagan - a co-FOUNDER of the infamous Iraq/Iran warmongering group, the Project for a New American Century. He has prosecuted more Defense/CIA whistleblowers than any other president. He is a big fan of drone strikes.

But, really, Obama is a progressive.

When it comes to foreign policy, Obama is using the same bad actors and the same bad, neocon script.

Open your eyes.

[freshwest]

39. Infowars truthers. Just sayin' n/t

[joshcryer]

82. Correct.

People take certain positions on whether the scenario is supportive of the US or not. They do not care about the underlying details.

The thought process is literally, "Does this help or hinder the US? Is this something the US wants or doesn't want?" If it is something that the US doesn't want, it's good. If it hinders the US, it's good.

[Number23]

133. You are absolutely right. I've lived around the world but this is the only place I've ever seen

where people seem to be proud to despise the country of their birth. Not merely ashamed/upset at certain actions. Literally despise everything about the government. It's completely insane.

Case in point, Prosense posted a thread about increasing school lunch for kids. It's been there for hours and has 36 recs. This place is absolutely gone.

[bravenak]

10. Thanks Tommy_Carcetti.

Reasonable as always.

[Ash_F]

16. Concise and informative for me. Thanks! /nt

[Chorophyll]

17. Kick.

I heard a fairly in-depth interview with David Remnick (The New Yorker, The Guardian) about Russia and Ukraine this morning, so I was taken aback to see "neo-nazi" posts popping up here. I thought something huge must have happened in the last 12 hours. Sheesh.

[H2O Man]

20. I hadn't heard

any rumors about Dick Cheney even being there.

(Vitali is a good man. Recently retired from the ring, to concentrate on politics.)

[Pretzel_Warrior]

22. kick. because most of DU wants to ignore this

and eat the gruel served by RT and other pro-Putin propagandists.

[BlueEye]

33. Agreed!

I don't understand how so many DU members cite Russia Today when the organization clearly shills for Putin, one of the least progressive people imaginable.

[arendt]

42. Great. So we should ignore one entire side of the story. How rational. How free.

This is classic projection.

You want me to eat another shit sandwich served up by right wing militarists and neocons here, so you claim that the Russians are forcing a shit sandwich on you.

Obama did nothing about rightwing coups in Honduras and Paraguay, and here we are supporting another right wing ( I did not say neo-Nazi) extralegal regime change. Pardon me for noticing a pattern. And this time, there is some pushback, so we are so upset.

You know, the Ukraine used to be part of Russia; so the Russians just might have some vested interest there; and some knowledge of who is manipulating whom. Not saying its right. Just saying that we invoke real politic when it serves our interest, and yell "foul" when anyone else tries to.

Just for counter-example - We Americans all know Mexico is a corrupt mess. But imagine if the Chinese ran a coup to get some "freedom loving" Mexicans to throw our stooge out; and the Mexican government started shooting demonstraters on the grounds theat they were drug dealers. How do you think we would react.

[Bobbie Jo]

61. Kicking your kick

Couldn't agree more.

[Adam051188]

23. a voice of reason is always appreciated.

NEONAZIS ARE EVERYWHERE!!!!!!lulz. is ted cruz a neonazi now? or still just a corporate puppet?(fascist) nazi is a pretty serious term to be throwing around in my opinion.

[newthinking]

26. Actually there is a pretty heavy population in Ukraine unfortunately

That doesn't mean that this movement was all neo-nazi's.

[Amonester]

30. Nazi is also a short for Nationalist Socialist, but most of today's neo-nazis aren't Socialists at..

..all.

[Scootaloo]

54. Nor were they at the time

[Nevernose]

32. Some really are neo-Nazis

One of the Svoboda big wigs actually founded something called the Joseph Goebbels Political Research Institute. "Nazi" in this case is not hyperbole.

The Nazis and fascists, however, are definitely in the minority.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

25. This shit is being peddled by right-wing idiots

It's up on the Lyndon LaRouche website, OpEd News, and the Center for Research on Globalization (which is basically a sock puppet for the official Russian news media).

If you're paying attention to these people, you're a damned fool.

[arendt]

47. That is very confusing.

Exactly which shit are you upset about?

Are you calling the OP right wing bullshit?

Or

ARe you calling the leftish OpeEdNews right wing?

Your comment can be interpreted so many ways, it is meaningless.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

111. Sorry about that....

It wasn't Oped News -- that was a brain fart on my part. But now I can't find the link to the source material (I'll keep looking).

My point was that the "Neo-Nazi's have taken over the Ukraine" bit is highly misleading and massively pre-mature. And it's a story line that's being peddled by the right wing media because....you know....Obama. They're so desperate for a foreign policy failure that they'll create one out of thin air if they have to.

There are neo-Nazi's in Ukraine, along with every other country in Europe. And we have them here in the United States. Julia Tymoshenko's party aligned itself with Svoboda (the neo-Nazi's) in recent elections -- whether Svoboda will remain part of any future governing coalition remains to be seen.

[arendt]

137. Wow. I was unaware it was Fox saying that!

Its a two-fer.

Their moron audience laps up the assault on Obama.

Meanwhile, progressives worried about the tide of skinheads, neo-nazis, etc. get tarred with Fox News' brush.

Confusion on all sides, and the authoritarian thugs come out without a mark on them.

[arendt]

47. That is very confusing.

Exactly which shit are you upset about?

Are you calling the OP right wing bullshit?

Or

ARe you calling the leftish OpeEdNews right wing?

Your comment can be interpreted so many ways, it is meaningless.

[arendt]

47. That is very confusing.

Exactly which shit are you upset about?

Are you calling the OP right wing bullshit?

Or

ARe you calling the leftish OpeEdNews right wing?

Your comment can be interpreted so many ways, it is meaningless.

[Zen Democrat]

27. Yanukovych ordered the army to move against their own people. 88 died. He's a butcher.

There's really nothing else to say, except thankfully the army turned on Yanukovych, and rightly so.

[brooklynite]

73. Ah, but those were CIA plants...or dupes...or something.

[davidpdx]

97. Yes, yes, yes, yes

It was the CIA, It was the CIA, they made me DO it.

[madrchsod]

29. from the guardian.....

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/22/ukraine-protests-europe-far-right-violence

it would seem the neo nazi`s are using this protest to further their agenda not the agenda of the majority of protesters.

[malaise]

94. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! n/t

[delrem]

31. "members of the Tea Party constitute 11% of the House"

Are you suggesting that the Republican party isn't dominated by "Tea Party" thinking and $$$?
Are you suggesting that a right-wing coup overthrowing Obama's admin would be OK, because the "Tea Party" is only 11% of the house?

Please explain your reasoning.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

41. I can honestly say there is very little risk of a "right wing coup" orchestrated by the Tea Party.

It's hard to even entertain such ludicrous a prospect.

Drawing an analogy between American politics and politics in other countries is an impossible task. I only used the Tea Party analogy to provide a proper context in proportionality of the greater legislative body.

[delrem]

45. Yah, right. nt

[mrchips]

35. 8%

A couple of points, any time the words neo-nazis is used, red flags go up all over the place. That party holds 36 seats in parliament out of 450. But when it is broadcast that it is the fourth largest party in the parliament, the percentage is forgotten and the fears go up. There are, I believe five opposition parties challenging for power right now, but the Svoboda Party is on the fringe. It's history dates back to World War II when it aligned itself with the Nazis against the USSR. Until recently it identified itself as neo-nazi. It is disturbing that it has any representation at all in Parliament, but the Ukrainians have shown a high level of sophistication regarding trade agreements with the EU being cancelled at Putin's request. It is a despicable party, with a history of extreme anti-semitism, but it is doubtful that it is on the verge of gaining control of the government.

[go west young man]

64. 36 of 450 is 12.5%

[mrchips]

66. 36 out of 450 =

8% divide 36 by 450 and see what you get. Ten per cent of 450 is 45. Take it from there. Not a biggie, just math.

[go west young man]

69. Your right sorry about that.

I've gone backwards when calculating.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

90. Lol

[mrchips]

102. No Problem

I do the same thing sometimes, think 8% is the same as an eighth.

[go west young man]

68. Here's what their goals are. I'm pretty sure most DU'ers

aren't going to be happy with what they want. The "Right Sector" per the BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25826238 And these are the people that led the revolution, not peaceful protestors. They are a fighting national front. Hence the reason they were able to topple the government. They like to fight.

[EmilyAnne]

77. The Right Sector did NOT lead this demonstration. Good grief. nt

[El_Johns]

84. It has 37 seats & is in alliance with 2 other center-right parties, forming an opposition majority.

It's also in alliance with right-wing parties across Europe.

[TRoN33]

38. Agreed, Tommy...

I saw that earlier post and I didn't bother to read it or Rec'd it. I simply knew it wasn't true at all.

[rollin74]

50. k & r. thank you

[rdharma]

52. Riiiight! No neo-Nazis in Ukraine!

http://www.ibtimes.com/euromaidan-dark-shadows-far-right-ukraine-protests-1556654

[Tommy_Carcetti]

53. Okay, you understand the difference between existing and holding power, correct?

Svoboda, the ultra-nationalist party, is one of multiple political parties in Ukraine.

It is not the majority, plurality or ruling party in the country. Not even close.

[Throd]

55. But they gots a logo 'n shit.

[LAGC]

116. ...

[rdharma]

58. Just like the "Brown Shirts" (SA) didn't govern Nazi Germany, eh?

I'm sure you are right.

[JVS]

65. But those are the peaceful protestors who peacefully toppled the regime with petrol bombs!

How dare you defame them!

[rdharma]

71. Petrol bombs are harmless!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

105. Thank you for posting a picture of the new President and Prime Minister.

Or maybe it's just two random people in the crowd of thousands. I mean really, what difference does it make?



Get your head out of your ass. I'm not denying that there are some ultra-nationalists and even a few neo-nazis in the Ukrainian opposition. What I'm point out is that none of those people are in any position of significant power, something that you insist to be the case even though no actual facts support your proposition.

[rdharma]

117. The opposition parties sure don't mind forming opportunistic alliances with fascists.

The Fatherland and Punch parties are associates/allies of the German Christian Democrats (Klitschko is a resident of Germany). Why shouldn't they form opportunistic alliances with fascists? It's like the Republican party's association with the Tea Baggers.

[MrMickeysMom]

57. You'd have to be ignoring most major newspapers, BBC America, Al Jazeera and the threads here...

… Maybe in addition to reading, comprehension should be required, too.

(sigh)

[El_Johns]

60. A little misleading. It's over 10% and:

In the 2012 Ukrainian parliamentary elections, Svoboda won its first seats in the Ukrainian Parliament,[21] garnering 10.44% of the popular vote and the 4th most seats among national political parties;[22] this transposed into 37 parliamentary seats.[23]

In October 2012, Svoboda joined a formal coalition with the centre-right Batkivshchyna and UDAR parties to form the parliament's collective opposition, now a majority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)


European and Israeli leaders expressed shock in October when Svoboda gained more than 10 percent of the electorate in parliamentary elections, entering the legislature for the first time ever. (In some western regions of Ukraine, Svoboda gained as much as 40 percent of the vote.).

The party is linked to the Patriots of Ukraine, widely regarded as a neo-Nazi group, and is also informally allied with France’s extreme right wing National Front.

http://www.ibtimes.com/svoboda-rising-spectre-neo-nazism-ukraine-974110

[LittleBlue]

62. Not sure about this. Ukrainian synagogue firebombed

http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/.premium-1.576230

Saw yesterday that Jews were advised to leave Kiev. This doesn't look promising.

[rdharma]

63. I'm sure they are safe!

There are other far right Ukrainian folks who aren't as radical.

[Behind the Aegis]

76. When shit like this is going on, it is NEVER a good idea for Jews to hang around!

It doesn't matter, we are usually to blame from both sides. When this was coming to head awhile back, I was reading several stories from Jewish papers/sites, and the Jews were unsure what to do. Basically, many Rabbis said "Just shut up, keep your head down, and stay out of it!" But you know us Jews, we are just paranoid.

[EmilyAnne]

70. Thank you. nt

[joshcryer]

80. I've just avoided that insipid echo chamber.

It's pointless.

[Behind the Aegis]

81. What I find interesting....

...are some of those who are making these claims were the same ones giving gay posters (and our allies) shit for going after the anti-gay Russian laws.

[joshcryer]

83. I think both sides suck there, mind you.

That's why it's not worth it for me to defend the protesters or getting into those discussions. But I think it was way overblown and I think once things settle down it'll be 'OK.' Every country has their nut bags. It sucks. Hopefully they can catch the criminals who firebombed that synagogue soon.

But yeah, I noticed the same posters, there's actually a pretty obvious pro-Russia contingent here so they find it in their interests to bash the Ukrainian protesters. And hey, I admit, I was for the protesters because frankly they were anti-Russian for the most part, we have our biases. But I think Ukraine has been repeatedly dealt a bad hand when dealing with Russia, and that's partly why there are nut bags there, so it was more me supporting the underdogs. I think moving toward the EU should give them a chance to get rid of the bad ideologies, but that's a generation out, of course, but it's a sight better than moving toward Russia and the pandoras box of hatred that could bring.

[Behind the Aegis]

88. I don't know enough, but from what I have seen, it is very fucked up.

Like I said to another poster, I saw nasty accusations against the Jews from both sides. Rabbis were telling people to basically "stay low." But, they are Ukrainians, so they have to make their own decisions, and sometimes, there just isn't a good side to choose, just the lesser of two evils.

[El_Johns]

85. What I find interesting is why gay posters would support an opposition that is also anti-gay.

Not to mention anti-Semitic, floridly so.

However, despite its extremist rhetoric, Svoboda cannot be called a "fringe" party – indeed, it currently occupies 36 seats in the 450-member Ukrainian parliament, granting it status as the fourth-largest party in the country. Further, Svoboda is linked to other far-right groups across Europe through its membership in the Alliance of European National Movements, which includes the British National Party (BNP) of the United Kingdom and Jobbik, the neo-fascist, anti-Semitic and anti-Roma party of Hungary. The leader of Svoboda, Oleh Tyahnybok, who has appeared at the Kiev protests, has a long history of making inflammatory anti-Semitic statements, including the accusation during a 2004 speech before parliament that Ukraine is controlled by a “Muscovite-Jewish mafia.” Miroshnychenko also called the Ukrainian-born American film actress Mila Kunis a “dirty Jewess.”

Tyahnybok has also claimed that “organized Jewry” dominate Ukrainian media and government, have enriched themselves through criminal activities and plan to engineer a “genocide” upon the Christian Ukrainian population. Another top Svoboda member, Yuriy Mykhalchyshyn, a deputy in parliament, often quotes Nazi Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels, as well as other Third Reich luminaries like Ernst Rohm and Gregor Strasser.

Svoboda also assails nonwhites. In February, Yuriy Syrotiuk, a Svoboda spokesman, expressed his unhappiness that Gaitana-Lurdes Essami, a half-Ukrainian, half-Congolese singer, represented Ukraine in the Eurovision music contest, citing that she “is not an organic representative of the Ukrainian culture.” Moreover, Svoboda expresses extreme hostility towards homosexuals – party members once attacked and sprayed tear gas at the participants of a gay rights rally in the capital Kiev.

http://www.ibtimes.com/euromaidan-dark-shadows-far-right-ukraine-protests-1556654


Amnesty International fears the extremist group's surge in popularity will help push through a homophobic law which proposes gagging the media, activists and human rights defenders.

Max Tucker, Amnesty International Ukraine campaigner, told Gay Star News: 'Svoboda's leader, Oleg Tyagnibok, has repeatedly made derogatory statements about sexual and ethnic minorities in Ukraine. 'He has referred to the idea of same-sex marriage as stemming from a group of "perverse and abominable values" and declared his intention to use his party's position in parliament to oppose such values, in order to cultivate "real Ukrainian national traditional values".

'Amnesty International is concerned that the existence of such beliefs in parliament will encourage the passage of legislation currently before it, which would criminalise the production or distribution of materials "promoting homosexuality" and make it punishable by up to five years in prison.

- See more at: http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/fears-ukraine-far-right-will-push-through-anti-gay-bill311012#sthash.NHy3ykeB.dpuf

[Behind the Aegis]

87. Show me where I have expressed support for either side?

What I find interesting is when people aren't concerned with anti-Semitism or gay issues suddenly become interested in them. They even wrote a song about it..."Things that make you go Hmmm.."

[El_Johns]

89. I actually thought you had, but what I mostly find is you posting articles like the ones I did.

My apologies if I've misremembered your stance.

As for not particularly being concerned with the issues you mention, they're not my big concern in the usual run of things.

But I am *very* interested in and concerned with the new rise of fascism in Europe, and there's quite a bit of overlap.

[Bluenorthwest]

108. Your reaction was one based in prejudice, not in an individual commuication with

a person, you saw 'gay' and went into frothy attack mode. Seen it and seen it.

[El_Johns]

112. Think what you like, but it's not the case.

[joshcryer]

92. I think you can support a tendency without being inconsistent.

Supporting a tendency to be culturally effected by Europe which is pro-gay rights over the tendency to be culturally effected by Russia which is anti-gay rights and is increasingly anti-gay rights can result in net progress.

[muriel_volestrangler]

100. Anti-gay applies to the Party of Regions that was just chucked out, too

In 2012, this bill got through the first stages (since stalled, possibly because of EU objections), when the Party of Regions led a majority coalition in parliament:

The Ukrainian parliament could give final approval next week to a bill that aims to outlaw "pro-homosexual propaganda" - any "positive depiction" of gay people, gay pride marches, or even the screening of a film like Brokeback Mountain.

Critics have described the legislation, which imposes indeterminate fines and up to five years in prison for repeat offenders, as a throwback to the Middle Ages, although it is only a couple of decades since homosexuality was a criminal offence here and in the rest of the USSR.
...
But despite this, the bill - which sailed through its first reading last week - enjoys wide backing. All major political parties are united in support, and polls indicate that many Ukrainians support some restrictions on the rights of sexual minorities.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19881905

However, opinion polls suggest the law would be popular with voters ahead of an Oct.28 parliamentary election.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/02/ukraine-parliament-homosexuality-promotion-law_n_1932684.html

[davidpdx]

98. I wouldn't say some of them

I'd say A LOT of them.

[El_Johns]

86. Tymschenko & her man Turchinov, as well as Klitschko, are all from parties in coalition with Svoboda

In October 2012, Svoboda joined a formal coalition with the centre-right Batkivshchyna and UDAR parties to form the parliament's collective opposition, now a majority.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1002&pid=4559663


They're in a formal coalition since 2012, and Svoboda provided the muscle for the "revolution".

That translates to "they get something".

What kind of freedom fighters make coalitions with fascists?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

91. Ones that want a majority

[Tommy_Carcetti]

106. I don't think you really understand parliamentary politics.

Coalitions are not typically ideological; they are strategic.

If they were ideological, the two parties would actually merge.

That they had a common enemy does not mean they had common goals or common views. They simply wanted to create the possibility of a plurality and therefore a change in control of parliament.

[dipsydoodle]

122. Don't actually matter who has ceased power.

Will all be sorted when they have elections and the feeling of those remaining in the square a day or so back demonstrated that NO current politicians should be allowed to stand for those elections - fresh start.

Skint but happy.

[davidpdx]

99. K & R

[cali]

103. You're right in your title assertion and then whee off the rails

comparing Svoboda to the tea party when they exist in completely different systems is foolish.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

104. The comparision was merely one of relative size.

The fact of the matter is, it is virtually impossible to compare one any one country's political system and party system to that of another. Too many variables preclude it. There's no Democratic Party in Ukraine, nor is there a Republican Party. It's an entirely different system altogether.

The comparison to the tea part was just to get an idea of the size within the legislative body. That's about it.

[msanthrope]

110. Putin fans are bit upset that he lost the Ukraine. But he's got Comrade Eddie as a consolation

prize!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

113. Bump. nt

[FSogol]

114. Awesome advice for everything: "But read--just fucking read--before you post shit on here."

[Pretzel_Warrior]

120. kick

[Gothmog]

130. Kick

[tosh]

131. K&R...

and THANK YOU!!

I've been truly surprised at some of the individuals here who have jumped on that train.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

132. Bump. nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

134. Again this needs a bump. nt