Is anyone else feeling kind of, er, conflicted about Venezuela?

[Armstead]

I don't know what to think.

I like what Hugo Chavez stood for, in terms of a "people's government" as opposed to the rule of oligarchs. But he also seemed like a bit of a loose cannon, with certain tendencies that were too authoritarian for my tastes....And not crazy about some of international allies. But perhaps s Strong Man was needed to wrestle away the country from te grip of the Oily-garchs, and bring some semblance of fairness to the economy and political system there.

And i was glad that someone of the same ilk was able to continue after him, and that the country did not succumb to the Corporate Wall St. Oligarch Cabal.

But the current situation? People ought to have the right to assemble in protest of the government. But who is stirring up the trouble? And are Strong Man measures necessary to prevent deliberate destabilization of the economy and political system by Big Money ?


I dunno. The world is very confusing sometimes.

[msongs]

1. is the "successor" looting the nation too? nt

[Coyotl]

11. Wow, perfect propaganda technique, wrap a question in a lie.

You could work for the CIA to overthrow democracy with that talent.

[kelliekat44]

27. You noticed! nt

[Blue_Tires]

2. I'm not conflicted

if someone is pissing on human rights while screwing up everything his predecessor (who I admit was far from perfect, lest someone call me a Chavista or whatever) tried to stand up and fight for, then yeah, Maduro deserves everything he's about to get coming to him....

[seveneyes]

3. Dragging the middle class down never works out well in the end

[KamaAina]

4. The same people who are always stirring up the trouble down there

the upper classes, who hate and fear bolivarismo, aided and abetted by our very own CIA.

That's why I'm conflicted.

[Coyotl]

62. Due to the superiority of our white race we will rule from pole to pole

according to President Taft. Every conflict has an origin. Taft was still thinking like Christopher Columbus, still thinking that planting flags was enough to claim other nations. These are the same people who said the Native American genocide was fine in the name of Manifest Destiny. These are the same people who brought us the Vietnam War and the Iraq War, the people who make sure an American Oil Company flag flies over every major oil field. And they want Venezuela too.

[KamaAina]

68. Doin' it from pole to pole

oh, wait a minute, they're Canadian.

[malaise]

5. No

Lose canons are the corporations and foreign interests who believe we in the developing countries should remain in poverty while they enrich themselves from our resources, our devalued currencies and of course cheap labor..

[Whisp]

7. +++

[Bucky]

6. I'm not even mildly surprised. I've been anti-Chavez from the gitgo.

I've been accused of being a dupe and a closet imperialist for expressing skepticism about the cult of personality that Chavez built around himself and his playing fast and loose with his nation's constitution just to advance his own short term goals.

When I've pointed out that he's driven the best and the brightest of Venezuela's young professionals out with his grandstanding and corruption... and that my opinions are based on knowing actual Venezuelans, I've been told I only hang out with right wingers and I'm a dupe. Sorry, but what Chavez triggered was a diaspora of his nation's future leaders. The crime problem has been running out of control in Venezuela for years--feuled in part by continuing poverty and in part by the Chavistas' cynical manipulation of class resentments.

Chavez's bunch was bad news from the start. I don't doubt that most of them had and have genuine concern for the poor, but their solutions have been so lunk headed, so short-term & crowd-pleasing focused, so dismissive of the property rights of the middle class, that it was bound to fall apart at some point. His legacy will be having fully impovrished a nation that is one of the wealthiest in natural resources.

[philosslayer]

8. I stand behind the Venezuelan Government

Revolutions can be messy. Change can be messy. And trust nothing that the corporate media ( .. cough.. cough... CNN) is telling you.

[sabrina 1]

9. Yes, I'm not conflicted at all. Anyone, probably OUTSIDE the US who is not dependent

on the Corporate Media knows exactly what is going in Ven. They succeeded in claiming control of their own resources, a coup to prevent that under Bush, failed, Chavez went on to build stronger resistance for All of Latin America against a return to the Old Reagan, Dictator Rule of Latin America and now they see an opportunity since his death, to try to take control AGAIN of that oil rich nation.

Clearly the far Right Oligarchs who no longer rule the other 80%, keeping them in poverty and illiteracy as they were when Chavez took over, are behind these attempts to destabalize another democratic nation.

And no doubt we are supporting the Right Wing 'opposition'.

[polly7]

10. Not at single, tiny bit.

When I see what they came from, what they've worked for and what the right-wing elite want them to go back to, it's not even worth a second thought, for me. The Venezuelan people were partners with Chavez in their vision, and were made a part of every level of gov't from the beginning. They aren't going to let it go without a fight no matter how much the propaganda is ramped up or how much dirty money is invested into trying - once again - to overthrow their democratically elected gov't.

[hrmjustin]

12. I don't like Maduro very much. I think he is a bully.

That does not mean I dislike socialism or like the opposition. But there are different sides to this story and I do not get those who think Maduro walks on water.

I don't think this guy knows what he is doing.

[Judi Lynn]

45. Apparently you're unaquainted with the kind of President the oligarchs love,

former impeached for corruption President Carlos Andres Perez, who wildly inflated the cost of heating oil, transportation and groceries for the poor of Venezuela. When they ran out into the streets to protest the fact they could not afford even the most basic necessities, he ordered his military to get into their tanks and drive right up into the hills surrounding Caracas, where the poor live in very ramshackle houses barely holding onto the mountainsides surround the city, and fire directly into the crowds of protesters.

In this "El Caracazo" massacre, he was able to destroy around 3,000 human beings, and plunge so many people into suffering, it took bull dozers to roll dead bodies into a common grave.

The government contended he only killed several hundreds, but the population knows EXACTLY who was killed, and that number is around 3,000 human beings.

This man continued to be a hero to the very class of people whose children are leading this "guarimba" as they call their violent protests since Hugo Chavez was elected. Guarimba. Something to be proud of. There will be "guarimba" until they can put another Carlos Andres Perez P.O.S. back into Miraflores to look out for them again, them and all their racist hatred of the poor.

[hrmjustin]

48. I was not aware of that.

I am not against socialism I just don't think Maduro is the best choice.

[Coyotl]

13. Obviously, you live inside the USA and haven't traveled Latin America.

Watch the film about Bush's failed attempt to overthrow Venezuelan democracy.

Chavez: Inside the Coup
(The Revolution Will Not Be Televised)

There are better versions if you pay to view.

[delrem]

24. Thanks for posting this. It tells a story that *ought* not be forgotten, or misunderstood.

I've watched this documentary before, as no doubt all those who actually care about events in Latin America have.

The images, the scenes, the spirit - and most central of all, the people celebrating Chavez' victory - have a tremendously forceful impact, and they remind and re-impress on me an awareness of just why the Koch Bros. contingent absolutely *hates* not just Chavez, but everything he stands for and everyone who supports him.

Those scenes are the antithesis of US middle class apathy, of neoliberal/neoconservative (I've never figured how they differ, except in the names of the respective "institutes" and figureheads, except in maybe timeline or temporary focus) political theater. That revolutionary red the people were wearing, their jubilation in wearing it.... there is no translation of that into NA politics, even that of the Occupy movement.

But the antithesis to that? The right-wing reaction to that? That translates very well indeed. For example, the tea-partyesque sloganeering and slandering of Pres. Obama as a Kenyan Marxist Islamist Infiltrating Traitor... is the exact mirror of the Koch/big-oil/MIC led anti-Bolivarian response to Chavez, and now to Chavez's successor Maduro. The lies are now way thick, the Koch/big-oil/MIC contingent is literally drooling, naked, hoping for another coup attempt. Those SOBs are *so* easy for the Koch/big-oil/MIC machine to arouse.

[2naSalit]

58. Thanks for bringing that out.

I have reposted it at least once in the past 24 hrs myself. It 'splains sooo much that newcomers to the issue don't realize.

[Coyotl]

61. It certainly explains why so many of us are having a deja vu-like moment now.

They are trying to pull off another coup via anarchy and media control.

[2naSalit]

64. Yup

Same old song and dance. I am well aware of how this all works and am disappointed at all the flag waving going on by the short attention-span theater... aka the peanut gallery.

[Coyotl]

65. America is exceptional

in how we wage foreign policy, that's certain. But not in how wingnuts think.

Some voices in this would-be "debate" seem to completely forget the context of Venezuela being a nation of voters, and they think their own ill-informed-by-propagandists political opinion is justification enough to overthrow a democracy which just held elections twice. Teajadism and Obama hate follow the same logic very closely. Beware what you wish on other nations lest it befall your own.

[2naSalit]

66. Indeed.

Another aspect of this that I take issue with is the demonization of all who don't march along with your parade which seems to require mandatory participation at the cost of the participants.

Another product of dumbing down the masses.

ETA: As long as we continue to buy into the demonization crap, we will never be able to solve our problems.

I watched several movies this week: Four Horsemen; The Revolution Will Not Be Televised and Capitalism, A Love Story...

All reminders of what is wrong here.

[Zorra]

14. And why is the US still destabilizing, and trying to conquer Afghanistan?

:idea: I've got it!!!

Because the 1% wants to privatize, control, and maximize profits on the resources of Afghanistan!

[Warpy]

15. Yes, Chavez was bizarre by US standards (not much these days)

but he was also able to charm the former oligarchs into keeping the economy running.

Unfortunately, his successor lacks that charm.

What's stirring up trouble is an economy that no longer works for ordinary people with artificial shortages of many consumer goods like toilet paper. While the oligarchs are likely sending out some of the more violent people, the every day people demonstrating in the public square don't particularly want them back, they just want to be able to go to reasonably well stocked stores and afford what's in them.

The worldwide escalation in food prices is definitely another factor.

Unfortunately, what they will get if Maduro is ousted is a return of the oligarchy hiding behind a military dictator.

They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

[geek tragedy]

19. Chavez was president for over a decade but there was never any doubt

that VN was a democracy, though he clearly was a little aggressive here and there.

In six months Maduro has revealed himself to be an incompetent goon who's already made himself a de facto dictator, one who was elected but who now views himself as having a divine right to do whatever the fuck he wants.

[Warpy]

21. Yes, he's been completely ham fisted and cloddish

but it is going to be very dangerous to try to replace him ahead of schedule.

[geek tragedy]

23. he shouldn't be replaced, but he shouldn't make himself dictator either

quite honestly, doesn't appear either side respects democracy very much

it seems more of a Manichean struggle to the death over there than it does a disagreement about how to best govern the country for everyone.

more tribal than political

[Judi Lynn]

47. Actually, you should remember the right-wing trolls here ALL referred obsessively to Chavez

as a "dictator."

Nothing has been said about Maduro by these right-wingers here, at a site for Democrats, other than the fact as a young man he worked briefly as a bus driver, (oh, what a fucking crime, being poor enough to hold an undistinguished job, the ####ing non-democratic assholes) they said already ad nauseum about Hugo Chavez.

Those twisted clowns don't seem to want people to remember they slimed the elected president BEFORE Maduro with the same venom they now spew about the current elected President.

[geek tragedy]

60. I don't care for the slams on Maduro as a bus driver.

His actions in office provide the most valid basis for critiquing his performance.

Chavez certainly made mistakes, but there was no doubt he wanted what was best for Venezuela while also having some sense of the limits of his own power.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. The shortages are suspect, suggestive of a "capital strike" like the one that weakened Allende

The consumer economy is almost all in private hands. This isn't the Soviet Union, where state-owned factories produced exactly their annual quota, no more no less, no matter what the actual demand was. There you had understandable shortages, because if the National Snow Boot Factory's annual quota was x number of pairs of boots, they didn't adjust the number to meet higher demand during heavier winters or lighter demand during milder winters. They also couldn't adjust prices to to get rid of surplus inventory or to encourage the factories to produce more in periods of high demand.

That's not the case in Venezuela. There shouldn't be shortages of toilet paper unless the paper wholesalers and retailers are "on strike."

"The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" was fascinating. It showed some of Chavez's opponents, and as I remarked to another Minnesota DUer who happened to attend the same screening, "Did you ever see such a bunch of country club Republicans in your life?" (They hated Chavez because, among other things, their servants weren't so subservient anymore.)

[El_Johns]

36. +1

[pa28]

16. Absolutely not.

I don't support the overthrow of a democratically elected government by right wing ideologues or military coup.

They will give you executions in soccer stadiums and "disappearing" enemies all day long but not human rights.

[Marr]

17. My position remains unchanged. Leave them the fuck alone.

It is not my place as a US citizen to judge what sort of government Venezuela should have, and I don't want my country's untrustworthy intelligence agencies and right-wing capitalist class interfering with it, either.

[gordianot]

52. Correct.

General Smedley Butler (Americas greatest decorated whistle blower of the 1930's) had it figured out after a life time of wearing the uniform and doing what he was told south of the border. "War is a racket"

Venezuela needs to sort this out.

[geek tragedy]

18. Rightwing oligarch assholes vs a leftwing authoritarian thug.

"lesser of two evils" is usually hyperbole. In Venezuela's case, it's understatement.

There should be someone on the left willing to challenge Maduro's quick path to becoming a leftwing Pinochet.
Honestly, VN is likely screwed no matter what--corrupt oligarchs vs a thug with no understanding of economics.

[sabrina 1]

25. And what makes him a 'left wing thug'? Because he has refused to cave to the right wing

Venezuelan version of our rabid right wing tea baggers and their corporate backers from Western Imperial Global Corps. He has been FAR TOO PATIENT with them.

[Adrahil]

30. Do you support the current suppression of internet access? NT

[sabrina 1]

37. You mean what they are planning to do here in the US, make the internet

so expensive that only those who can afford it will have access to it?

I am aware of the situation with the Right Wing controlled media in Venezuela and have no doubt that if people were using their money here to publish threats against the Government, I have no doubt what would happen to them. After all, here we jail people for peacefully demonstrating which is their supposed right to do. Worse, our robo cops beat them nearly to death. And that is NOT for trying to take down the government, but for protesting bad policy. We have enough problems here regarding freedom of speech, see what has happened to our Whistle Blowers, Manning eg, torture, isolations and decades in jail, that I would never be hypocritical enough to claim to know what is best for anyone else, until we get our own rights back.

But as I said, I am familiar with the history of the Right Wing owned media in Ven. It's a sad history but they are still functioning there which I doubt, considering their history, they would be in this country.

[Adrahil]

39. Yes yes... avoid the question and support oppression. Nice

It's very telling that you avoid the question and IMMEDIATELY launch an attack on the U.S.

You said you absolutely support the Chavistas, and yet here you demurely claim to avoid saying what best for other people. Now THAT'S hypocrisy.

Can you not even criticize behavior worthy of criticism in people you otherwise support?

[sabrina 1]

42. I support legitimate democratically elected governments. I do not support

criminal coup d'etats of ANY legitimately elected governments no matter how much I might disagree with their policies. I support ELECTIONS as a means of removing governments from power.

Airc, the Venezuelan people had an opportunity to remove the current government and WILL HAVE another opportunity to do so again, through their election process.

It's very telling that you support the toppling of a democratically elected government by mob control led by Right Wing 'leaders' who have a history of such criminal activity in Venezuela.

I said NOTHING about 'absolute' support for anyone or anything in Venezuela OTHER THAN for the DEMOCRAT PROCESS.

That you would lie about my position, which has been clearly stated, kind of makes me wonder about everything else you have to say unfortunately.

[geek tragedy]

35. because he unleashed live bullets against demonstrators and publicly bragged

in front of a partisan crowd about throwing one of his political opponents in prison.

If you like the old USSR, you'll love Maduro.

[sabrina 1]

38. Really? I don't recall you being terribly upset over the near killing of OWS veterans

right here in this country, not to mention the brutal beatings of peaceful demonstrators. In fact airc, you appeared to be excusing the brutality that drew the attention even of the UN. What was the defense? They were blocking traffic or some such thing?

I'm astounded and please frankly, that you appear to have had a change of heart regarding the right to protest, well at least in foreign countries. Kudos, it's a start. I'll be looking for changes in your comments when OWS takes to the streets again.

[geek tragedy]

40. you remember incorrectly. police brutality is never justified.

Ironically, you're the one who's defending Maduro even though he's doing stuff 100X worse than what happened in OWS. (people are actually dying there, he's shut down the country's internet, and is throwing political figures in jail).

Maduro is an extreme version of Putin.

[sabrina 1]

41. Lol, sure! I have a good memory and as I said, you were not exactly a huge supporter

of the American people's right to protest policies of their government, not be a long shot. Yet, here you are supporting the Right Wing led so-called 'oppostion' in a country that is none of our business.

I do not recall your now claimed outrage at the use of military grade weapons against OWS's peaceful protesters. In fact you were quite antagonistic towards them.

I remember how few facts you had regarding OWS and your, shall we say delight, in thinking the movement had gone away?? It hasn't, just so you know.

OWS is a democratic, not a right wing movement. And yet you were not at all supportive of it. Yet here you are supporting a Right Wing led, paid for movement intending to overthrow a democratically elected government.

What do you think THIS Government would do if OWS eg, had been armed and had as its goal, the overthrow of the US Government? What 'STUFF' do you think this government would have done to anyone doing what these right wing thugs in Venezuela are doing?

I am of the opinion that Maduro has been far, far too lenient on those who have been involved before in attempted coups against Ven's democratically elected.

I do not recall you supporting OWS at all. I wonder why someone would NOT support Democratic peaceful protests in their own country but support violent, right wing protests leading to coups of democratically elected governments in a country they have nothing to do with?

[Marr]

54. +1, Excellent point.

Odd how some people always seem to line up on the side of right-wing oligarchs, even when the principles are switched around.

[sabrina 1]

57. Lol, what is amusing is how tricky it is for them when they oppose Democratic

Liberal protests against inequality and civil rights HERE, trying to sound 'pragmatic' and 'reasonable', lol! We all remember the pretenses that their ONLY objections were 'how disorganized and ineffective' they were, blah,blah, right wing Faux garbage. Because they have to be CAREFUL on a Dem forum.

When we all had them pegged. And now, suddenly, much like our government btw, who 'condemn' the police crackdowns on OTHER countries' protests while remaining totally silent, and/or even complicit when right here peaceful protesters were being brutalized for telling the truth about Wall St.

Much like THAT hypocrisy, they are suddenly sooooooo supportive of the 'people's right to protest' when they find some Right Wing anti-Democratic, Corporate funded 'protests' led by Right Wing, the worst kind of Right Wing 'leaders' with a history of criminal, violent involvement in attempted COUPS against legitimate, democratically elected governments.

Iow:

Anti-OWS!

Pro-Right Wing Oligarchs in Latin America!

It must be a hard road to walk, to try to explain the sudden support for Right Wing movements on a Democratic forum while opposing Liberal movements right here. I am glad my principles remain the same. It makes things a lot easier. No need to try to rewrite anything, no fear of having someone dig up comments from the past showing a certain, shall we say, disconnect or perhaps confirmation of former 'opinions' as to where I stand on things.

It's fun to watch though, don't you think?

[Judi Lynn]

49. Please be good enough to furnish evidence this president "unleashed live bullets."

It doesn't seem to fit with the fact he has publicly spoken to the people to not use violence, and went far beyond that.

Go get your evidence to back up this shabby, untruthful crap you've spread here:

"because he unleashed live bullets against demonstrators and publicly bragged

in front of a partisan crowd about throwing one of his political opponents in prison." [div class="excerpt]
Democrats here really SHOULD see the reason WHY you feel so entitled to post this before even considering taking it seriously.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

55. Sure! Here's a link... one of many...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7c4_1366222593

Always glad to help.

Here's a second. A Venezuelan policeman shooting a man in the head.

And another:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=99b_1392857338

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Comrade Grumpy]

20. I'm kind of conflicted about America. I'll let the Venezuelans take care of themselves.

[polly7]

22. Does that mean you're not going to sign this?:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/110826161

"a link to petition the White House to intervene and help the people of Venezuela."

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/intervene-and-help-all-venezuelans-suffering-and-fighting-freedom-dictatorship-and-being-killed/45zvJvHj

[delrem]

29. wow, that pic is positively mystical.

Kind of like the old, old and true saying "a picture is worth a thousand lies".

[lunasun]

26. nope cuz I dont believe the big money well funded hype aided by,and seen in US

[roody]

28. I support the Bolivarian revolution.

[Armstead]

31. Well after reading the varying opinions on these posts, I'm as confused as ever

But remembering all of the US backed right wing bullshit that happened in Chilie, Argentina, etc in the past, I hate to see us getting back into imperialust intervention on a big time basis and backing a coup there.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

33. I feel as if I've seen this movie before

in 1973, to be exact.

[Sgent]

34. I just don't see us getting involved, and

no one has presented any evidence of our involvement in Valenzuela.

We had reasons for backing other right wing regimes (valid or not), and that was Soviet containment. After the Cuban missile crisis, we didn't really care who the asshole in charge was as long as they were our asshole (see Argentina, Chile, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Vietnam, etc., etc.).

Since the fall of the Soviet Union, I don't really remember us getting heavily involved in domestic disputes -- certainly not to the point that Madero accuses of.

[sabrina 1]

43. You must have been away somewhere over the past decade. Does Iraq ring a bell?

Afghanistan? Pakistan? Yemen? Somalia? Libya? Did you hear the latest tape of our 'diplomats' discussing regime change in the Ukraine?

How about Honduras? And the coup attempt in Venezuela when Condy Rice inadvertently exposed our involvement there?

And of course if you read any of the Wikileaks cables, there is way, way more information on our foreign policies.

Unless the fall of the Soviet Union was yesterday, we seem to do nothing BUT interfere in the business of other sovereign nations.

[Sgent]

50. You just proved my

(poorly made) point.

With the exception of Iraq / Afghanistan, we weren't the ones instigating action, although we did take sides and push our interests. But in every case I'm aware of we did so openly, often with broad international support.

We haven't been primary instigators in covert actions to force regime change since Iran / Contra. If Madero's accusations were true, the entire world would know it. Either we were overtly involved, or what we did was more in the realm of protecting our interests, but not forcing one government or another upon individual people.

[sabrina 1]

51. The entire world DOES know it. Only here is it a secret that our interventions continue

in almost every part of the world. Read the Wikileaks cables if you want to get an idea of how deeply involved we are in the business of almost every country in the world now.

We do it differently now, as Hillary said, we 'fight wars by proxy'. Like we did in Libya. As I said, the rest of the world knows it. The ONLY reason we here in the US don't know it, is because of the controlled media we have here.

We are deeply involved in Venezuela's affairs eg. Too bad as always, we are on the wrong side. We were deeply involved in the affairs of the Ukraine, too bad again, on the wrong side. We were deeply involved in the coup in Honduras, and again, as always over the past several decades, on the wrong side.

We were deeply involved in Syria, we were so deeply involved in several African nations right now, just was were deeply involved in Central American affairs for decades, all those 'secret wars'.

Anyone who thinks we are not involved in the affairs of other nations, together with our Western Imperial allies, France, Britain, et al, hasn't been paying attention. But the rest of the world knows, as the Egyptian Protesters who finally toppled Mubarak, another Western puppet dictator, said to us 'stay out of our affairs' but we haven't, have we? We didn't like it when they toppled one of our favorite dictators and there was no way we were going to stay out of their business, nor have we.

[2naSalit]

59. !!! ^^THIS^^

[ileus]

44. Once you have the perfect government why allow protests.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

53. I suggest you read up on the history of Latin America

It's quite eye-opening and will explain the role of the U.S. in Latin America, overthrowing every democratically-elected government. Destabilization is a very popular technique which has been used in Latin America to do this. What's going on in Venezuela is precisely that.

[Armstead]

69. I know of the past mideeds....I was hoping our current governmenr wouldn't collude

But maybe that's too much to ask

[Sarah Ibarruri]

70. I know... this country automatically does that, it seems. :( nt

[mecherosegarden]

56. I am not conflicted at all : He should get out!

Last edited Mon Feb 24, 2014, 07:44 AM - Edit history (1)

Have you seen the videos of the students that have been killed by the GN and the Tupamaros? Have you seen the videos of the GN torturing students? Have you seen them taking students prisoners ? Have you seen them throwing tear gas on the streets without caring for children and the elderly who live in the area ? Have you seen the faces of the students destroyed by the shots ? Have you seen the GN beating up students, kicking them when they are down?
Geraldine Moreno is one of the students killed after being shot in the face with rubber bullets . During one of the two surgeries performed to Geraldine, a cartridge full of rubber bullets was extracted from her brain. She was almost in front of her house when she was killed and she was trying to get her little sister to go back in their house. Today, while Geraldine Moreno was been buried , Maduro was dancing in National Television!

But I guess that the students lives are not important as long as Maduro is there, right?
And by the way, now is turning to be a fight between Venezuelans and the Cuban military troops sent by the Castro brothers to help Maduro. And not only we have the Cubans military but we have Chinese soldiers as well. But I guess that is a right propaganda.
I am grateful for those who have expressed their concerns for what is going on in Venezuela. Names such as Cher, Madonna who twitted " Apparently Maduro is not familiar with the phrase "Human Rights"! Fascism is alive and thriving in Venezuela and Russia. ", and so many others because the world started paying attention to what really is going on in my beloved country.

[Coyotl]

63. I'm really happy that you get your political leadership from Cher and Madonna.

Actually, I recommend studying history and, in particular, propaganda and how it deludes people.
Meanwhile, it is 1970 and i have a rifle and a gun to go with your plane ticket to Saigon. I'm sure you already believe all the propaganda needed to really enjoy your trip and kill the locals.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

67. Maduro is a contemptible and appalling, but democratically elected, president.

I think Venezuela would probably be much better off with him gone, but I can't deny that his rule is legitimate.

So, yes, I'm conflicted.