Gated Community is the new Suburban White Flight....Zimmerman will be defended - vigorously

[Junkdrawer]

Neighbor comes to defense of Trayvon Martin's shooter

SANFORD, Fla. - A neighbor of George Zimmerman and fellow neighborhood watch captain in their Florida gated community came to his defense Tuesday, saying Zimmerman shot Miami teenager Trayvon Martin after numerous burglaries at The Retreat at Twin Lakes.

Frank Taaffe pointed out the circumstances that he believes led his 28-year-old neighbor to react the way he did on the night of Feb. 26: Eight burglaries within 15 months, most done by young black males, he said.


"The stage was already set. It was a perfect storm,” Taaffe said.

NBCMiami.com could not immediately confirm the burglary statistic Taaffe cited in a phone call to Sanford Police Tuesday night.

...

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/21/10791755-neighbor-comes-to-defense-of-trayvon-martins-shooter

It's a reluctant "OK, shooting THIS kid was a tragic mistake, but, in general...."

Last thing I told my wife last night was that if Trayvon wasn't the child of a resident, the story would never have made the papers.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

1. New? Its been going on for decades

[Junkdrawer]

2. Guess I'm showing my age. Suburban White Flight was a 50s thing.

To me, gated communities are relatively new. And it seems they're becoming more widespread.

[RZM]

3. Exactly

It's more like the same old white flight.

And if people think white flight is a conservative thing, they are sorely mistaken. How many DUers have participated in it over the years? I'm guessing a lot.

When I was born, the neighborhood I grew up in was probably about 50-60 percent white. Today I'd guess it's roughly 10 percent white.

[CreekDog]

30. What are you arguing? That it's not so bad? Or finding that indefensible, saying:

"well, you all do it too!".

what's your point?

[RZM]

33. What is your problem?

It's neither bad nor good. It just is. And it's not really a political or ideological thing either. White people across the political spectrum have done it.

[CreekDog]

34. You said "White Flight is neither bad or good"

GOT IT! We got it.

[RZM]

35. Yes I said it. Am I supposed to be ashamed of that?

I'll bet I'm not the only here who thinks that.

You seem to be think this is a 'gotcha' moment. Except there's no 'there' there.

[CreekDog]

36. there's no "gotcha" moment for someone who has no shame about it

"White Flight" is considered a bad thing, yes.

[RZM]

37. LOL. You really do crack me up

White flight (i.e. leaving a diverse neighborhood for one that isn't) is really just one aspect of a much larger phenomenon of self-segregation. It's choosing where to live, which is something everybody does. If you move from one lily white neighborhood to another, you're essentially doing the same thing as a family engaging in white flight - meaning you're deliberately choosing not to live somewhere that is diverse. It's a fairly natural thing too. People tend to feel more comfortable around their own. It's just a fact of life. Why do you think some colleges have separate orientations for minority students? It's because they know that minority students will be more at ease and have a better opinion of the school if their spend their first campus visit surrounded by people they are most comfortable and familiar with.

Not acknowledging the racial component of deciding where to live is how whites justify this to themselves. The only difference between me and somebody with 'shame' is that I'm actually saying it, rather than sweeping it under the rug.

[CreekDog]

39. Why is it funny? Because discrimination is funny or because you're ignorant of it?

Seriously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockbusting

and as for your calling yourself a "historian". time for that charade to end.

[RZM]

40. What the hell do you care what I call myself?

Also it's a little creepy, since I can't even think of the last time I described myself that way. It seems you are more familiar with my posts than I am. It's odd because I don't even know the first thing about you. The first time I even looked at your profile page was a few minutes ago.

Anyway, I don't find white flight funny. I find you funny. You're taking out your anger on me simply because I'm saying shit that everybody knows and most people accept. Maybe you're projecting?

[CreekDog]

42. Well when there is a racial topic and I go to post, there you are

very concerned that someone is thinking there is a racial component to it.

in this case, when the term "new suburban white flight" is applied to the newer proliferation of gated communities, you want to say that everyone is doing it and there's nothing wrong with white flight. worse, you then represent your opinion as the norm --what, of white people? who is it okay with?

i think anybody that sees white flight as neither right or wrong either doesn't know any context for white flight (whether Archie Bunker or restrictive covenants or racism or poverty, etc.) or thinks those things were innocuous.

remember, it was YOU that said you didn't think white flight was right or wrong.

words you say and the topic you choose to say them in will necessarily have folks thinking about why you said them.

[RZM]

43. Have you even been reading this thread?

Where on earth do you get that I am 'concerned that someone is thinking there is a racial component' to white flight? White flight is almost entirely about race. I've never said otherwise. In fact, I think that whites tend to convince themselves it isn't about race as a way of justifying it. You just made a completely false statement. Either you didn't understand what I posted, didn't read it closely, or you're simply making things up.

And again, you're back with the semi-stalkerish stuff. Why are you so concerned about which threads I choose to post in? Has it perhaps occurred to you that racial issues are interesting to me and that's why I post in such threads? It's also amusing to see how upset you get over dispassionate and detached analysis of these subjects.

Thanks for the advice, but I'm not too concerned about what you and 'folks' think. It's all out in the open and people can draw whatever conclusions they wish. Methinks you're taking this internet thing a bit too seriously.

[CreekDog]

44. A while back, my neighbor told me she was moving because too many blacks were moving in

into our neighborhood.

1) is that an example of "flight"?
2) is it neither right nor wrong?

(let it be clear to anyone reading that i was horrified and i think it's completely wrong)

[RZM]

46. Perhaps if your neighbor had used the proper euphemisms, you wouldn't have been as horrified

The most common one is 'good schools,' though maybe she didn't have school-age children. Or better yet, she could have just said nothing. Or lied. Then your mind would have been totally at ease.

But to answer your questions:

1) Yes it is flight
2) No it isn't right or wrong. There is an unspoken rule that people are allowed to think this way, provided you never tell the truth about it. What isn't allowed is expressing it openly. That's the mistake your neighbor made. As long as you observe the rules, you won't get in trouble for it.

Obviously living in a diverse neighborhood works for you. More power. But it doesn't work for everybody. Many people prefer to live around people that look like them. It's not my job to pass judgment on people for where they decide to live. If this woman wants to live around other white people, I don't really care. Just as I don't care if a Somali immigrant decides to settle in Minneapolis, and Iraqi Christian in Dearborn, or a black family in Atlanta.

I'm glad you told this story because it's a perfect example of the bind white liberals are in when it comes to race. Many white liberals secretly think the same way your neighbor does. Believe me, I've known plenty who do. But they can't say it, especially around other liberals. Saying what your neighbor did would be an automatic tombstore here, for example.

But conservatives (white would be redundant) are much less concerned with appearing racist, at least in private conversation with other conservatives.

I'm not saying every liberal is like this. Obviously you aren't. But if you think this isn't a widespread notion, you are deluding yourself. The evidence of it is scant precisely for the reasons I mentioned. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

[CreekDog]

47. you just said not wanting to live near black people "isn't right or wrong"

rarely is it stated so plainly.

wow.

(ps-most of us are no less offended when racism is cloaked in euphemism)

[RZM]

48. My post was fairly lengthy. I said a lot more than that

Though maybe you didn't read the whole thing. If you take the post as a whole, I believe it constitutes a reasonable (if uncomfortable) argument.

You're of course entitled to your own opinion.

Are we done now?

[CreekDog]

49. an hour ago, I'm reading your posts too carefully and now i'm not reading them all

make up your mind!

does the fact that you put some paragraphs and blah blah blah around it make it more acceptable that you don't think personal racism is wrong?



heck, it is the user manual to understanding your posts!

[RZM]

51. Your lack of understanding of my points led me to believe you weren't reading closely

That's actually giving you the benefit of the doubt. It's either that or you aren't capable of understanding or are making things up. Just because you're following me doesn't mean you 'follow' me.

That 'blah blah' is context and reasoned analysis. You should try them sometime.

Have you alerted yet? And if so how did it go?

[CreekDog]

52. I didn't alert your posts, you didn't make racist statements, you were just an apologist for them

and as for not understanding you? what have i gotten wrong?

that you defended personal racism? you did, multiple times.

that you don't think White Flight is wrong in the macro or micro? you said it wasn't, and I asked you in multiple ways about it.

one thing i did get wrong, i thought you were going to discount the racial component involved in "White Flight" and I was wrong. you clarified to not only say that there was a racial component, but that there was nothing wrong with it. i guess my opinion of you was more charitable than it should have been. my bad.

[Chan790]

38. Yeah, but it's a double-edged sword.

You move back into the hood like I did and the local race-baiting minister calls you a gentrifier. It's not my fault that all of a sudden Columbia Heights and Adams Morgan have turned into a nice place to live, you dickhead. (Not you. The reverend.) I lived here when it was a dangerous crime hotspot a decade ago.

[CreekDog]

29. And White Flight began when? Yesterday?

Fail.

[sinkingfeeling]

4. So, you can shoot somebody for crimes committed by others simply

because of race? Is that what Frank, good, old boy, thinks?

[Junkdrawer]

6. It's a race/class/age thing.

And as more lower class whites sink into permanent poverty, they will become targets too.

[Freddie Stubbs]

5. Neither Martin's father nor Zimmerman is white

Lots of minorities live in gated communties

[Junkdrawer]

10. In the late 70s, I was friends with some college students from a wealthy Venezuelan family....

They spoke of how refreshing and liberating it was to live in a country where you could go just about anywhere without armed guards.

We're getting there.

[Baitball Blogger]

18. Zimmerman would be referred to as a white Hispanic or Latino.

He's bi cultured, which will make it that much harder to determine where he picked up his reference points. However, since he's been taking Criminal Justice classes and has a history of following people, we can say that he has run in police circles. If so, he probably heard racist opinions.

Hispanics/Latino prejudice is hard to pin down. Sometimes it's derived by race, but there's probably more class prejudice involved because the race is very diverse color wise. Someone that can prove he has an education is generally treated as an equal or esteemed professional.

[CreekDog]

32. Racism against blacks doesn't only come from white people

People of all cultures learn very quickly which group is considered acceptable to disrespect and they act on it.

[Freddie Stubbs]

41. He's pretty dark-skinned to be considered white

I am black, but some of my relatives have lighter skin than him.

[Baitball Blogger]

45. Wow. And i wouldn't consider him dark at all.

[MADem]

53. He looks white to me, with a Florida tan and (steroid?) zits.

His work ID picture looks whiter still, and his brother --who was on Piers Morgan lying his ass off--looks white, too.

[doc03]

7. I have been thinking of moving to Florida and it seems like every community

is gated down there. After reading about the Martin story I realized I could have been shot in Florida myself and probably would have been if I was black. A friend told me about a friend of her's that bought a mobile home in a gated retirement community in Florida and told me to stop and see their place while I was down there. I pulled up to their place and they had a lanai with a unlocked screen door so I opened it intending on going to knock on their trailer door. At the same time I stepped inside I startled the owner that just stepped out of the trailer. After hearing about the Martin shooting I realized the owner could have gunned me down right there and gotten completely off. In Florida he probably could have shot me when I got out of my car and got away with it because I didn't know I was supposed to sign in at the office before entering the place. At least in Ohio someone has to be entering you home or vehicle, the way I understand it in Florida you can just shoot anyone anywhere if you feel threatened.

[Baitball Blogger]

19. Absolutely true.

Doesn't leave an easy feeling for those of us who have confrontations with our own neighbors just by walking down our own street.

[OPOS]

8. White Flight

Yet he was visiting a Black Girlfriend at her fathers house in the White Flight Gated Community.....

[Junkdrawer]

17. See posts #6 and #12. People will defend, with every fiber of their being, that which they believe

gives them relief from fear. Visit the Guns Forum if you doubt this.

Gated Communities (and the right to shoot intruders no-questions-asked in said communities) will be defended just as vigorously.

[snagglepuss]

9. Given that Zimmerman's gated community is multi-racial, only 49% are white

so it's hardly an example of white flight.

[X_Digger]

11. Don't bother me with facts, son, I'm on a roll here!

[Junkdrawer]

12. I never said Gated Community was a whites-only thing - I said it's the new "Suburban White Flight"..

that is, a fear-based housing phenomena - which I clarified in post #6.

[Baitball Blogger]

15. Do you have a link?

I have read it both ways. At the beginning I heard it was diverse, and then a second article called it primarily white.

[lukkadairish]

13. Frank had better gird his loins then

Cause he is in for a battle of epic proportions. Not only was this particular neighborhood watch unregistered, but the NUMEROUS reports of his readily apparent stalking of the boy, his racist remarks that were audible, and the history of this guy constantly calling law enforcement just begs for this guy to go down. The entire Sanford Police Dept., the City Council, the mayor, and all who were involved should all resign enmasse. If they cannot see the egregious injustice done to this young boy, compounded by their ineptitude and collusion to cover their collective asses, then they do not deserve not one more penny or consideration from their constituents.
Get ready dude.........................CAUSE YOU ARE GOING DOWN

[Baitball Blogger]

14. It's what I've been saying.

These white flight zones around Florida are usually Republican and they make up their own rules to suit themselves:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002445786

[Snake Alchemist]

16. Isn't this more like Light Brown Flight considering Zimmerman's and the community's ethnicity? nt

[EC]

20. Doesn't say much for the validity

of a "gated community" if they can't keep the "undesireables" out...isn't that the purpose of a GATED community? If they were having problems with burglaries why didn't they hire private security, since it is being sold as a "gated community"? Aren't those places advertised as safe havens? Don't they normally have check points at all the entry points, meaning that anyone inside the "gates" are supposed to be there?

[Baitball Blogger]

21. I don't know the facts about their burglaries,

but the first people that I would suspect burglarizing a gated community would be landscaping companies. They are usually one or two men with a trailer hitch and lawn mower. They move in and out of communities every week and people generally avoid them because of the noise they make. They would also know who wasn't home at the time.

But, hey, keep blaming it on the black yuts.

[Junkdrawer]

22. It's just real estate developers cashing in on fears....

See this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=449164

At least two drive-in entrances: one wide open, the other with a big showy gate. And the wide open one faces the business district.

The merchants of fear are never honest.

[gvstn]

23. This article

Gives a better account of the neighborhood http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/2700249_p2/shooter-of-trayvon-martin-a-habitual.html

It was sold as a gated community but because of foreclosures it had a lot of rentals to anyone who could pay the first months rent. This Taaffe guy sounds in both articles like he would prefer things to be more like the good ol' days when their were separate neighborhoods for various races. Both reporters seem to allude to the fact that he comes off as a bit racist without being overt about it.

[ScreamingMeemie]

25. "So I thought, ‘Let me sit in the house. I don’t want anyone chasing me.’”

How sad is it for a neighbor to feel like that?

I would not be surprised, at this point, (and I know it's out there) if Zimmerman ends up being implicated in break-ins, suspicious activity etc..., in order to "rid" his neighborhood of those who chose inferior to himself.

[gvstn]

28. That is the worst part

That a percentage of the neighbors are afraid to walk their own neighborhood at night because they might be accosted by the "Watch". Worse yet that they felt they had to put up with it rather than put a stop to it. But with cops like the ones involved they probably did the prudent thing.

[Junkdrawer]

26. And, just as White Flight led to the classic Ring Development and impossible commutes....

Gated Communites will decay into Caged Communities and even more fear and tension.

What a surprise.

[jwirr]

24. So it is open season on anyone who you think might have committed a crime because there is

crime in your neighborhood. These neighborhood watch groups should not be armed and should not think of themselves as police. They are eyes only units and that is the way they should stay for the sake of all of us who do not want to be gunned down because of fear.

[LanternWaste]

27. My apartment complex is gated with only one exit/entrance

My apartment complex is gated with only one exit/entrance, guard on duty,, call-box, etc.

I don't really see an objective physical or even ethical difference between that and private homes being in a gated area...

[Cali_Democrat]

31. This quote sticks out:

"He said he believes his neighbor acted in self-defense."

Then he also says:

“I think any time you use a weapon, there are certain anger issues working,” Taaffe said. “I think he had fed-up issues. He was mad as hell and wasn't going to take it anymore.”

A bit contradictory, no? Martin was unarmed and carrying with skittles and an iced tea.

Zimmerman is going down.

[itsrobert]

50. Of course he's defending Zimmerman, he's in for a lawsuit

The Home Owners Association who let this mentally ill person roaming the streets with a weapon is in for a big lawsuit.