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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNice and fitting goodbye to Jay Leno
Many wonderful attributes and kudos.
Billy Crystal Garth Brooks Oprah Winfrey and more.
But the best thing was when Jay, in saying goodbye to us as he kept breaking down in tears, praised that he was able to work with UNIONIZED NBC.
He had a great section about politics through the last 22 years, surely we will see a clip of it tomorrow.
But I cannot help but think that his "unionized" comment gave us an idea in parting about his political leanings which he did not feel free to disclose while working his show.
Wishing Jay well!
blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,290 posts)I imagine his price tag just went into the atmosphere.
Doesn't mean I think Fallon will be staying though.
Mira
(22,380 posts)I watched him only channel surfing to learn about guests or when Letterman had a guest i could not stomach.
But I do have the impression that this is his final day and he won't be back
LostOne4Ever
(9,290 posts)Yeah it was a very nice show and the part where he made sure everyone knows it was always a Union show and that he was proud of that was especially nice!
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)Leno Goes for Broke in Final Tonight Show Monologue: I Dont Like Good-Byes. NBC Does.
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/leno-goes-for-broke-in-final-tonight-show-monologue-%E2%80%98i-don%E2%80%99t-like-good-byes-nbc-does-%E2%80%99/
Leno Gets Farewell Advice from Bill Maher, Charlie Sheen, and Obama
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/leno-gets-farewell-advice-from-bill-maher-charlie-sheen-and-obama/
Conan Jabs Leno: With Olympics, NBC Finally Found Someone Okay with Passing the Torch
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/conan-jabs-leno-with-olympics-nbc-finally-found-someone-okay-with-passing-the-torch/
Letterman Bids Adieu to Longtime Rival/Frenemy Leno
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/letterman-bids-adieu-to-longtime-rivalfrenemy-leno/
Mira
(22,380 posts)I wish I knew how to do something like that. Thank you.
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)Leno Thanks the Tonight Show Staff and Loyal Audience in Teary-Eyed Good-Bye
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/leno-thanks-the-tonight-show-staff-and-loyal-audience-in-teary-eyed-good-bye/
Billy Crystal, Carol Burnett, and Oprah Serenade Leno in Epic, Star-Studded Musical Number
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/billy-crystal-carol-burnett-and-oprah-serenade-leno-in-epic-star-studded-musical-number/
Lex
(34,108 posts)DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)And a big part of that is because they are unionized. I'm sure Leno could be a Republican (I've seen working class union members vote Republican...usually not the brightest guys to be honest) but when it comes to a certain value sticking together (a liberal value) then he's probably much like the rest of us.
He wasn't my favorite comedian, but he did alright. I hope he has a nice retirement.
Mira
(22,380 posts)I stopped watching him because I thought he was indicating he was not liberal in nature.
I read his comment about having been "unionized"and being happy about it, as a message he sent to us in parting. That was the purpose of my post. But then, I could be so wrong so somehow I choose to doubt it.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)There were times when I was in school or moving or working that I couldn't stay up to watch them both, but I really admired them both. But then I think that Leno was a jerk for accepting the Jay Leno Show or whatever it was called which ate into Conan's ratings (Conan never had a chance to succeed and build his audience). Sure, he was forced to quit the Tonight Show 5 years earlier than he wanted to quit, that's shitty, but he should've taken the paycheck and walked, and not tried to do his own show at an earlier date. He should've said "How much to pay off Conan? I'll take it." There. Deal.
It only saved NBC a few tens of million dollars, and I will never forgive him for that pettiness.
edit: I'm so sorry, I replied to you twice (didn't realize you were the OP, I just read posts and respond). I didn't mean to reiterate my post #33.
1000words
(7,051 posts)Yah ... that's supporting unions.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)President Bush announced he plans to help out homeowners in this mortgage-lending crisis thing thats going on. He said millions of people could lose their house, and you know, he knows what hes talking about. Last November he lost a house and the Senate.
Bush is upset, very upset that the Iraqi parliament has failed any major legislation since taking office. I guess, of course, on the other hand, it made him feel right at home.
The White House announced President Bush is on the last page of the Harry Potter book. So, apparently, he's reading it backwards.
President Bush welcomed the prime minster of India to the White House today. Bush said, "While you're here, can you look at my computer for a second?"
One of the big problems in Iraq right now is agreeing on a constitution. They should do what the Bush administration does: Have a constitution, but just dont use it.
Happy Birthday to U.S. President Bush, hes 59. If you havent gotten him a birthday gift yet, I know hes still looking for an exit strategy for Iraq.
U.S. President Bush met with Palestinian president Abbas. There was one embarrassing moment when he said to Abbas, I love your hit, Dancing Queen.
President Bush said he was anxious to see the film though he was a little upset when he heard it was in Aramaic and Latin. Bush said "Why make a movie only Arabs and Latinos would understand?"
According to a new poll, if the election were held today both John Kerry and John Edwards would beat George Bush by double-digit margins. In fact, the White House is so worried they're thinking about moving the capture of Osama bin Laden up to next month.
President Bush is now focusing on jobs. I think the one job he's focusing most on ... his own.
Some sad news, President Bush's lap dog passed away. I didn't know Tony Blair was sick. I was shocked.
President Bush was on Meet The Press Sunday, a lot of his White House staffers thought it was a bad idea
"Hey
better than him going on Jeopardy"
Be honest
He didn't seem very well prepared
actually there was a reason he wasn't prepared, see Bush thought he was just gonna to meet the press, he didn't know there was gonna be questions
.There was one kind of embarrassing moment where President Bush was asked if he was ever AWOL?" and he said "No no no I have Earthlink
we use Earthlink, can't get AOL"
The Bush administration says it will file a brief with the Supreme Court over the University of Michigan's affirmative action policy, saying it's wrong to determine acceptance based on race. Bush said acceptance should be based on fair things like what private school you went to, who's your dad, how much money you gave to the alumni fund."
"President Bush has declared Sunday to be National Sanctity of Human Life Day. He said we have to protect the weak, the imperfect and the unwanted. But first, we have to give tax cuts to the rich."
This Sunday, President Bush will be at the Daytona 500 for the start of NASCAR season. President Bush is a big fan of NASCAR. Bush says if it weren't for NASCAR, man never would have stepped foot on the moon. Finally, somebody said, "Uh, sir ... that's NASA."
A Newsweek poll said if the election were held today, John Kerry would beat Bush 49 percent to 46 percent. And today, President Bush called Newsweek magazine a threat to world peace." -
Today President Bush said he was "troubled" by gay people getting married in San Francisco. He said on important issues like this, the people should make the decision, not judges - unless of course we're choosing a president, then he prefers judges.
I was watching TV last night and I saw an interesting documentary on TV last night about the ninja - you know, the Japanese soldiers. According to the legend, the ninjas were warriors who could make themselves invisible whenever we fought in a war. You know, kinda like George Bush in the National Guard.
In his annual economic report to Congress President Bush said that the transfer of American jobs overseas is actually part of a positive transformation that will enrich the U.S. economy over time. So basically, losing your job to someone else can be a good thing - of course we'll see how he feels about that in November.
Happy President's Day everybody! Today of course is the day we honor our presidents. We honor Bill Clinton by having a mattress sale, and as most people don't have to work today, we honor George Bush.
Earlier today President Bush spent some time with National Guard troops in Louisiana. When Bush arrived, the commanding officer said, "You're a little late."
A retired Alabama National Guard commander says he remembers President Bush showing up there for duty back in the seventies. He says Bush used to come into his office and read. However, payment records released by the White House suggest that was not President Bush. Hey, the fact the guy was reading I think suggests it wasn't president Bush.
Yesterday President Bush stopped off at a bass pro fishing store to pick up a fishing reel, some line and some rubber worms. He's going to disappear and go fishing. So he must think he's back in the National Guard again.
Does this bother a lot of people? Who cares if Bush did his job in the National Guard 30 years ago - I'm more frightened about the job he's doing now.
Today in the L.A. Times, one critic wrote that the problem with John Kerry is "he looks like he thinks too much." Well, you won't hear anyone accusing President Bush of that.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)"A Newsweek poll said if the election were held today, John Kerry would beat Bush 49 percent to 46 percent. And today, President Bush called Newsweek magazine a threat to world peace."
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)If not all comedians.
Hint: comedians had so much fun riffing on that idiot Bush it was awesome. The history books will render Bush the worst President ever, or one of the worst. The comedic books, comedic history, will render him the greatest idiot President of all time.
alp227
(32,052 posts)And Jay Leno's jokes appeased Republicans so much, Breitbart found fit to praise Leno. (My link goes to the Twitter of Eric Hananoki of Media Matters, who screenshot the Breitbart Big Hollywood blog so the site doesn't get any more of your traffic.)
LostOne4Ever
(9,290 posts)How you can be pro-union and still be a fiscal conservative is beyond me though
Though he also said that he has never voted conservatively in his life. I guess hes a 3rd way dem.
http://www.laweekly.com/2004-09-16/news/does-mr-middle-of-the-road-lean-left/?storyPage=3
JI7
(89,264 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,290 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)joshcryer
(62,276 posts)fujiyama
(15,185 posts)but his audience skewed older, and that's where he found his niche.
Leno's jokes were trying to appeal to a wider audience so it wasn't very edgy and he stuck to monologues with tired punch lines about OJ or Bill Clinton. His interviews were also not very incisive.
But all that said, this whole thing about him being a right winger is absolutely silly. His wife was a major proponent for women's rights in Afghanistan and promotes family planning and birth control. He sounds like he grew up working class and he made a very specific point at the end of the show that it was UNIONIZED. It wasn't subtle in the least, in an age where bashing unions is more the rule rather than the exception. He also clearly said, "I pay my employees well" (also may or may not be coincidental after Obama's state of the union). I think it was a shout to union workers everywhere, especially in the midwest and Detroit in particular. He clearly identifies with working class people and even had a free concert in Michigan a few years ago.
So no, I never cared for his humor but he's a pretty "stand up" guy. I wish him the best. And it was a great closer. Very heartfelt and sincere.
adirondacker
(2,921 posts)TheMathieu
(456 posts)The man himself seems to be decent with a big heart.
His goodbye was heartfelt and classy.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)He was my favorite among all the "Late Night" comedy people.
I can't stand Jimmy Fallon. I don't think he's funny at all. I won't be watching his version of The Tonight Show.
merrily
(45,251 posts)He screwed Johnny Carson, who, until he died, used to, from time to time, write jokes and secretly give them to Letterman to use in his show. The night Carson died, Letterman did a compilation of some of the jokes Carson had sent him over the years as his opening monologue. He had a long face, never smiled. No one knew was happening, until Dave explained at the end of the monologue.
One night, hours after some lunatic went into a California law firm and shot and killed several human beings, a combination of lawyers and support staff, Leno joked in his opening monologue that the description of the event was "a good start."
I don't wish him ill, but I am not sorry to see him go. So long, Jay.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Either you are misremembering the "good start" thing (it's a very old joke) or you have been misinformed.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Yes, it is an old, tasteless joke and I recognized it the night that he applied it to human beings who had been shot--could not have been too long before he began filming. And it burned my brain because it was so heinous. I was hoping none of the survivors happened to have the TV
BTW, how the fuck do you claim to know that he never made the joke? Don't bother answering. It's a rhetorical question. You're talking through your hat and you know it.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)And you would be able to find at least one link to where he was criticized for saying it. But of course you will not be able to find any such link, as he never said it.
merrily
(45,251 posts)been a big story. BTW, it might have been a story the next day. That part I don't know.
Funny that that was the only thing in my reply that bothered you. No problem with his saying that he's a conservative because he's patriotic?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)my jaw dropped so far when Leno made the joke. If you know anything about memory, strong emotion embeds; and I was stunned.
I found a wiki on the shooting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/101_California_Street_shooting
Lawyer jokes, including jokes about killing them were very common at the time, thanks in great part to Republicans discrediting them so conscientiously. And Leno gave the punch line quickly, one joke in several minutes of monologue.
So, I would not be surprised if no one carried the story, but I am not going to google for one because I heard it myself. Presence or absence of a new story to confirm is unnecessary for me. If it is necessary for you, you google.
And, contrary to popular belief, everything in the universe is not on the internet.
Most of all, just because you believe that, if it happened, a joke of many in a comedian's monologue MUST have been hit all the papers the next day, doesn't mean it's so. If you look for a story and don't find one, that will mean only that your assumption is incorrect. I gather that will be difficult for you to accept, but I don't care. He told the joke.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)I gave you a link proving that the California law firm story that I posted about from memory actually occurred and that I had remembered it after 21 years, helped by shock of hearing Leno joke about it right after I had first heard of the shooting on the 11 o'clock news. Tends to support my original post quite well. And I have no earthly reason to lie.
So now it's your turn.
Give me a link to something that says newspapers 21 years ago would definitely have covered one lawyer joke out of an opening monologue, when everyone was telling jokes about lawyers. And also that the stories from 21 would definitely now be on the internet. And that, if there is no story on the internet, it never happened.
Because you made up all that crap, start to finish, and it's bullshit. No reason whatever for me to look for a link to try to refute bs like that. He told the joke. I remember and my memory, while not perfect is no slouch.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Sorry, I know it's frustrating to spend 30 minutes or so Googling something and come up completely empty-handed.
merrily
(45,251 posts)from the one and only thing I googled, the shooting.
The stuff you've been pulling from your ass up until now has reeked enough. Only now, you are pulling more out in order to say I lied, something that you stopped just short of in your first reply to me.
I said I was not going to google for a news story and I didn't.
If you were the least bit sincere about this, you would at least concede that the odds are I recalled correctly, based on how the link that I did provide matched up with my initial post, and 21 years after the fact to boot?
Who the hell do you think you are going to impress with these shopworn posting tactics, like insisting there must be a link and demanding I provide it after I told you I would not google? Certainly not I. And, based on what I've seen on this board so far, not many Democrats on this board, either.
And why are you calling me a liar? Because I said a conservative comedian told a horribly tasteless joke 21 years ago?
Tell you what though. You've made a new friend, buddy. Frustrate that.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)the theory you made up.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)That pre-dates the internet in the form we know it, as the instant and constant media response.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)People would not forget about "that time Jay Leno joked about the mass shooting".
Still no link.....
morningfog
(18,115 posts)I didn't hear it. I don't know the context. Neither do you. Unless you were an avid Leno fan and recorded his shows from 1993, this question will be left unanswered.
Personally, I don't care. I have ever liked Leno. He isn't funny. He's sexist and arrogant. I never really watched him.
merrily
(45,251 posts)I know that he said it and, as I have told you repeatedly, I googled the shooting story and that is one more link that your made up theory deserved.
Why are so obsessed with my saying that a conservative comedian told a tasteless joke?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)You'll never find one for that stuff you made up anyway.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)and lawyer jokes. It was written the week after the massacre.
http://articles.latimes.com/1993-07-08/news/mn-11155_1_lawyer-joke
Now, think about it. If Jay Leno had actually cracked his most tasteless, worst-timed ever, lawyer joke, on the day of the mass shooting, don't you think the writer of this article might have mentioned it?
merrily
(45,251 posts)something else that I posted upthread to you, namely that lawyer jokes were very prevalent at the time that Leno told the one I posted about.
Now, think about it. If Jay Leno had actually cracked his most tasteless, worst-timed ever, lawyer joke, on the day of the mass shooting, don't you think the writer of this article might have mentioned it?
No, YOU think about it. My link AND yours prove that every material thing that I said about event from memory TWENTY ONE years later was true. California. Law firm. Lawyers and support staff. Gunman. Lawyer jokes prevalent at the time. LENO. monologue. Not just that he made a joke, but that he made it during his monologue.
It would be very odd if the one and only thing that I got wrong in all that was the shock from Leno that caused the shooting to embed in my memory in the first instance.
Of all the comedians in California who were telling lawyer jokes, why, the day after the shooting, do two reporters go to LENO, the guy I mentioned, and no other comedian?
If you truly think my memory or integrity is bad, that should have stricken you as some coincidence--that Leno was the comedian and the only comedian reporters wanted to interview about lawyer jokes the day after the shooting, no?
Why did the reporters not mention the wording of the joke in the story? LA Times. LA shooting of lawyers. Story about lawyers pleading for an end to lawyer jokes because their lives are in danger. Also the survivors are in LA. They don't to read it. Maybe the reporters never actually heard the joke
Why not mention specifically that Leno told a tasteless joke that same night?
For one thing, for all the reasons mentioned above, it's pretty much implied to anyone who is awake.
Beyond that, there could be a hundred explanations.
One very possible scenario. The head of the LA bar mentioned in the story had told the reporters about the Leno joke and they called Leno for an interview. Not mentioning the fact he told a bad joke on the very night of the killings may have been his condition for being interviewed at all about the subject of lawyer jokes. Very like Leno, IMO, not to want to take heat for something he did. He never took any responsibility about Conan O'Brien.
Finally, look at his callous, defensive response, and his incredibly tone deaf continued bashing of lawyers the day after the shooting:
Comedian Jay Leno, who spices his "Tonight Show" monologues with lawyer jokes, had some advice for Saferstein and other lawyers in an interview Wednesday: "Not being an attorney, I will have to consult with my attorney, but I was under the impression that one did have the right to free speech."
Jokes do not change people's minds, Leno said. They only reinforce beliefs. "I don't see attorneys coming to the defense of Al Gore, Dan Quayle and Zsa Zsa Gabor," Leno said. "Are they serious? C'mon man, lighten up."
As you yourself noted, the belief in most of those lawyer jokes at the time was that the death of several lawyers was "a good start," or some form of "lawyers deserve to die." As a comedian, Leno would know very well what the jokes of the time were about. And he's saying that jokes "only" reinforce that belief--so he should keep telling them? The day after the shootings! Christ!
LA reporters, asking seriously about lawyer jokes the day after a mass LA shooting in a law firm? " "C'mon man, lighten up!" Yeah, because Leno is the victim.
I rest my case. Thanks for proving I was dead right, no pun intended.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)by far his most tasteless ever, mocking the victims on the day of a mass shooting.
And a week later the LA times publishes an article about lawyer jokes in the wake of the massacre, without thinking to mention that Leno had cracked such a disgusting lawyer joke on the very day of the massacre!
Gotcha.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Okay.
It was really Bobcat Goldthwaite's monologue right after the 11 o'clock news and two reporters from LA Times just happened to be interview the head of the bar and then Leno, of all the comedians in LA. and Leno just happened to continue being an defensive tone deaf ass about lawyer jokes and his first amendment right to keep telling them, even if lawyers and their staff and clients were getting killed that week.
Wow, Sherlock. You finally wrung it out of me.
And now, the inevitable lie:
without thinking to mention that Leno had cracked such a disgusting lawyer joke on the very day of the massacre!
You know that I covered that in my prior reply and did not say anything of the kind.
If you think all the alignments between my posts and that story you linked about were pure coincidence, I can't help you and I don't know who can. We're done for this thread buddy.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)The night Carson died, Letterman did a compilation of some of the jokes Carson had sent him over the years as his opening monologue.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4458443
That also didn't happen. Johnny Carson died on January 23, 2005, and the Letterman monologue that you are thinking of was on January 31.
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,1023108,00.html
Memories can be tricky, can't they?
merrily
(45,251 posts)Keep digging, my new friend. I love it when you keep proving me right.
As I have mentioned again and again on this thread in my post to you, strong emotion embeds memory. I had no strong reaction when Letterman did his monologue, nor did I claim to.
Oh, and look. It was Letterman's, not Bob Goldthwaite or Leno or anyone else. And the monologue and not something Letterman did during the course of his show. And it was a compilation of the jokes Johnny had secretly been sending Letterman after Johnny left the Tonight Show. And Letterman did do it within a few days of Carson's death. The only variance you found was a few days.
And this was nine years ago. LOL!
How can you possibly not realize that posting this proves that my memory is pretty damned good about material points?
Oh, you're going to be even more fun than I hoped.
BTW, would you feel better if I said Leno was that much of an ass about a mass shooting of lawyers four days later? LOL!
And I bet if you find a video, you'll see Letterman doing them with a straight face too. Why don't try to see if you can find the video.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Memories can, indeed, be tricky things.
merrily
(45,251 posts)BTW, did you enjoy the parody of Leno doing jokes about mass shootings? What a card!
Wish I could remember the name of the poster who posted it.
qwertyq
(47 posts)@ 0:48
merrily
(45,251 posts)Bevan's feelings. I would hate for him to take your post as implying that he has not done a fabulous job of proving me right himself.
All kidding aside, I appreciate this a lot.
I'll try to remember your name.
qwertyq
(47 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)very, very soon.
What a find! I bow to your research skills. Unless you had seen the Carrey parody of Leno before, in which case, I bow to your memory and ability to put things together.
I did not notice the first time that your post about Carrey's video was your very first post. I am honored and grateful. From this point forward, you can do anything to me but insult my family and I will take it with a smile. Welcome to DU.
qwertyq
(47 posts)But when I saw that headline joke that they did, it screamed that your information was the correct information. Still no Nye Bevan to be found. Shame some people just can't admit to their mistakes.
gopiscrap
(23,765 posts)ohheckyeah
(9,314 posts)and he wasn't a favorite, but I felt for him tonight saying good-bye. He was very gracious.
Loved the Garth Brooks song The Dance...it's a favorite.
I wish Jay the very best and look forward to Jimmy taking over.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)I enjoy Green and the rest a lot, so, IMO, Leno's departure will improve the quality of late night.
eShirl
(18,503 posts)these last few decades.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)He joked about being fired 3 times but if he hadn't fought for the Jay Leno Show or whatever it was called Conan probably would have had better ratings (Jay's demographic at the time was older folk, who actually turned off the TV when Conan came on; if his "pre-news pre-Conan" show didn't exist, Conan would probably still be at the Tonight Show to this day).
Otherwise, yeah, it was a really heartfelt ending and he really meant it.
Response to Mira (Original post)
davidpdx This message was self-deleted by its author.
madokie
(51,076 posts)although I very seldom watched his shows. I do read his articles in Popular Mechanic though. Leno's a good guy and I wish him well.
Johnny Carson liked him so thats good enough for me
Oh yeah Leno's a union kind of guy, thats good in my book too
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Good riddance.
HawkeyeLibkid
(76 posts)Bill Hicks or his jealousy of Jay Leno. "The Tonight Show" isn't a comedy hour, believe it or not.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Did you have something to say? A point perhaps?
merrily
(45,251 posts)B Calm
(28,762 posts)Not funny
TransitJohn
(6,932 posts)That's the fittingest Leno I can think of.
TBF
(32,090 posts)but kudos to Jay for the strong union leanings.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)A good reason to turn off the tube until it's over.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)Since Johnny Carson left.
I like Letterman and would probably like Jimmy Kimmel (if I watched late night tv any more)
Leno was never funny imo. I wish him well in his future endeavors.
RadiationTherapy
(5,818 posts)The real Jay Leno died tragically during an interview with Joey Lawrence and Patrick Duffy in 1993. (4.5 minutes; not for delicate ears).
Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)Tom Ripley
(4,945 posts)Leno certainly got enough mileage out of it