Should Snowden Have Run Away?

[Bragi]

The article (below) makes a very strong case for why you cannot compare Snowden's behaviour to that of a MLK or a Gandhi, and condemn him for fleeing U.S authorities. He should face the evil empire, or be seen as a coward, some argue, even here.

But times have changed. it is hard to imagine it today, but MLK and Gandhi were able to actually lead their political movements from jail. They were not denied communications, or information, or the right to interact with the world outside the jail, including their supporters, and media. Daniel Ellsberg walked and talked freely after he was arraigned and released on bail.

Things are very different now. US. Civil liberties have shrunk, especially if it has anything to do with national security. Today, a Snowden ends up immediately and totally incarcerated, shut up and silenced, virtually disappeared, until their secret trial is held, after which they will be disposed of as is seen fit, with little likelihood of their fate being known by many, let alone understood.

It seems unlikely that MLK or Gandhi would have signed on for that.

Should Snowden Have Run Away?
http://reason.com/blog/2014/01/31/should-snowden-have-run-away

[VanillaRhapsody]

1. OMG MORE with the comparisons to MLK and Ghandi?

Unreal....seriously....unreal.

I already predicted that soon enough he would get compared to Jesus...and I was right...he DID get that comparison....THAT is how ludicrous this is!

[Bragi]

5. Read the OP

It's about about why Snowden's actions *cannot* be compared to those of MLK and Gandhi as it relates to accepting jail as an honorable and inevitable consequence of an act of willful civil disobedience.

[VanillaRhapsody]

16. Duh...but still...who could even not see that that it has to even BE said...

that's what I mean....

[Lint Head]

2. What he uncovered would not have been known if he had stayed in the US.

[VanillaRhapsody]

27. says who?

maybe he didn't try to tell the right people...

But we will never know will we...cause he ran with his stolen cache like a scalded dog!

[Lint Head]

46. And there will be changes at the NSA caused by the actions of that scalded dog.

[VanillaRhapsody]

47. He still ain't no hero....

heros DO NOT RUN to RUSSIA! Who is all of his worst criticism of the U.S. only worse!....its hypocritical!

[Lint Head]

54. Who said he was a hero? Many "heroes" have criticized the US. Even the Founding Fathers did that.

Some even broke laws as to have them changed. Some are arrested to this very day to protest unfairness. Some were hung from trees for breaking slavery laws. Which were changed.
Heroism is not waving a flag and saying The Pledge of Allegiance. To think that is to belittle real heroism and heroes. Like my Uncle who
won the Sliver Star in WWII and my best friend who died in Vietnam.

[VanillaRhapsody]

59. This THREAD is about that......

that what this discussion is...

Man you guys just jump into conversations JUST to defend the guy....even when you are proclaiming YOU don't idolize him....even when the conversation is about him being Hero worshipped......THIS is why that is being said at all!...you are part of the problem....you are contributing to this image...this characterization.

[sheshe2]

61. It is, VA...

The last line at the link...

Swire is wrong. Snowden deserves our admiration and support.

[Lint Head]

90. This thread is not about hero worship or heroes. Do you call every discussion about Snowden

hero worship? Some of my personal heroes are mentioned. But the word hero is not even in the article. The article asks, "Should Snowden Have Run Away?" Whether it makes him a hero or not is another subject. Cavalierly throwing the word hero around demeans the word hero. Please read my previous reply as to what makes a hero. A child recently burned to dead trying to save a member of his family. That is a hero.

[snot]

72. B.S. We know. He saw what happened to others who tried to blow the whistle through

the official chain of command: financial and etc. strangulation, at best.

[sendero]

77. Do you know ANYTHING about this..

... you post and post and post but do you ACTUALLY KNOW ANYTHING about this situation? Do you know about the NSA whistleblowers who came before and tried to do it your way and what happened to them?

If you DO KNOW, your posts are basically FUNCTIONAL LIES.

If you DON'T KNOW, why are you posting?

[newfie11]

69. Agreed. Nt

[MannyGoldstein]

3. America didn't torture then the way it does now

We were a civil society when Ellsberg was arrested. Our government was well-controlled under Nixon compared to the sprawling extra-legal mess we have today.

[struggle4progress]

11. You might want to study up on the 50s and 60s before you talk out of place and time. A woman

I know told me that when MLK came to town, her parents went to hear him but were quite afraid of what might happen and absolutely refused to let her go with him

[MannyGoldstein]

18. No question, bad things were done then. Awful things.

But now? Did you see what was done to people at Occupy? Wanton beatings and all manner of illegal stuff. Chelsea Manning released little of consequence other than a video showing a sick slaughter of civilians, and she was tortured for months then sentenced to decades in prison. We routinely put people in solitary confinement for years, for decades.

We have secret laws. Our president has a secret kill list that he hides from the judiciary. Lying to Congress is fine, fine.

America has been turned upside down. Snowden would be crazy to come back, he'd be tortured without due process.

[struggle4progress]

25. You don't know what "of consequence" might be in the 730K documents Manning released:

if you've been reading 20 documents a day, every day since they first appeared, you haven't gotten through one half of one percent of them

[MannyGoldstein]

29. The military admitted this.

They were down to saying that the only harm was the embarrassment of our diplomatic corps. But since every other country is spying on us all the time - right? - you'd think our diplomats would be at least as smart as my teenager who knows not to put stuff in emails that he doesn't want the whole world to see.

[struggle4progress]

56. Your rhetoric is useless to me: it wanders too quickly from facts that can be analyzed

Manning waived a jury

The judge, based on evidence presented, concluded his action was "of a heedless nature that made it actually and imminently dangerous to others"

Manning said "I am sorry that my actions hurt people. I am sorry that I hurt the United States." He explained his behavior as resulting from the fact that he was "dealing with a lot of issues" and added that "these issues are not an excuse for my actions"

[MannyGoldstein]

60. Dear Lord!

https://pressfreedomfoundation.org/blog/2013/08/bradley-manning-did-not-hurt-united-states

Goodnight.

[struggle4progress]

62. Reitman founded the "Bradley Manning Support Network" according her link at that website

She's certainly entitled to her opinion, of course, but she decided she knew exactly where she stood before much evidence was available

[VanillaRhapsody]

28. You seriously think what happened to OWS is WORSE than what happened in the 60's?

seriously?

Kent State ring any bells?

[MannyGoldstein]

35. No, it wasn't.

But it continued for months, unchecked. Kent State was awful, but it was an anomaly.

[struggle4progress]

40. Look up what happened at Jackson State eleven days later

[VanillaRhapsody]

42. an anomaly....

ask John Lewis if it was an "anomaly"? Ask those guys on the bus signing up people to vote...

Ask the people who had actual fire hoses turned on them....etc...etc. etc.

You really are speaking out of turn....

Google is your friend

https://www.google.com/search?q=pictures+of+riots+in+the+1960%27s&oq=pictures+of+riots+in+the+1960%27s&aqs=chrome..69i57.7512j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

[brush]

81. Sorry, you're wrong, way wrong

Last edited Sat Feb 1, 2014, 11:53 AM - Edit history (1)

Kent State was no anomaly. There was Jackson State, Shwerner, Goodman and Chaney, dogs sicced on black demonstrators, Freedom Rider buses attacked, the shooting up of Black Panther headquarters around the country, the '68 Democratic Convention and Daly's thug cops — not an anomaly at all.

[struggle4progress]

17. You don't remember the Nixon era very well, do you? We had COINTELPRO, Nixon's use of the IRS

to harass his political opponents, burglaries organized by the White House, Executive efforts to get Congress to authorize "preventative detention" of people Nixon thought might commit unspecified crimes in the future, &c &c

[MannyGoldstein]

21. How many Americans did Nixon imprison and torture as enemies of the state?

Did Nixon have a secret kill list? Did Nixon have secret laws that could not be challenged?

[VanillaRhapsody]

31. How many did Nixon have shot dead on a college campus?

[MannyGoldstein]

33. Zero. nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

44. None were killed protesting?

Indeed....

Oh well perhaps video of it...its not like everyone had cellphones in those days but still...here is some footage for your edification..

On May 4, l970 members of the Ohio National Guard fired into a crowd of Kent State University demonstrators, killing four and wounding nine Kent State students. The impact of the shootings was dramatic. The event triggered a nationwide student strike that forced hundreds of colleges and universities to close. H. R. Haldeman, a top aide to President Richard Nixon, suggests the shootings had a direct impact on national politics. In The Ends of Power, Haldeman (1978) states that the shootings at Kent State began the slide into Watergate, eventually destroying the Nixon administration. Beyond the direct effects of the May 4th, the shootings have certainly come to symbolize the deep political and social divisions that so sharply divided the country during the Vietnam War era.

[MannyGoldstein]

49. Nixon had them shot dead?

Really?

[VanillaRhapsody]

51. did you read the blurb....and are you saying Obama directly himself made the orders against

OWS?

Is that where we are going to misdirect this discussion to ?

The point WAS......NO what OWS experienced was NOT worse than what was experienced by protestors in the 60's

Much like Ghandi and MLk are not equal to Snowden....

[struggle4progress]

37. Rhetorical questions are not a substantial substitute for factual analysis.

Nixon's lawyer, James St Clair, explained Nixon's theory of his Presidential prerogatives to the Supreme Court as follows: The President wants me to argue that he is as powerful a monarch as Louis XIV, only four years at a time, and is not subject to the processes of any court in the land except the court of impeachment

[VanillaRhapsody]

48. What whistleblower got tortured?

[Octafish]

89. Ever hear of Bradley or Chelsea Manning?

THE TORTURE OF BRADLEY MANNING

After more than 900 days of detainment in United States military jails for allegedly disclosing state secrets, the haunting imprisonment of accused WikiLeaks source Pfc. Bradley Manning was discussed in court for the first time at the latest round of pretrial motion hearings that began on Nov. 27 in Fort Meade, MD. Below is an account of those court proceedings. The case will continue intermittently into 2013.

By Andrew Blake
Vice.com

EXCERPT...

When a forensic psychiatrist was eventually commissioned to assess Manning at the brig, repeated recommendations were made to remove him from protected watch, which left him forced to cover himself with only a suicide smock and bedding that resembled something between a cardboard box and a liquidation sale rug. Those professional suggestions were all ignored in favor of the guards’ own instincts. Many of those staffers testified that they were trained in corrections for one month at an Air Force base in Texas and rightfully admitted that the guidelines for dealing and assessing with a suicide case they were taught there were thrown out the window when Private Manning arrived.

On Saturday afternoon, five days into the latest round of hearings, Quantico Staff Sgt. Fuller acknowledged that he routinely signed off on keeping Pfc. Manning a max custody detainee, and cited his reasons specifically for the court.

“Those times that I actually did have interaction or communication with Manning, it seemed he was distant, withdrawn, or isolated. That gave me cause for concern,” he told the court. When asked him to explain why he was worried, Fuller said, “I’m not sure why. You really couldn’t get him to talk.”

Quantico guards also testified that for initial health evaluations, a dentist was the qualified physician tasked with assessing Manning’s mental wellbeing.

“Why were you getting weekly updates from a dentist as opposed getting them directly from a forensic psychiatrist?” Coombs asked Col. Choike.

“She was the commanding officer,” he said.

At Quantico, Pfc. Manning treatment wasn’t by the book: the sleep depravation and stripping of clothes; the humiliation; the taunts and mockery; the nine months of putting Pfc. Manning in protected custody citing concerns over suicide—concerns that were rebuffed relentlessly by both Pfc. Manning himself and qualified psychiatrists. That’s why Coombs is looking to have the case against his client thrown out, and Manning’s own testimony this week only accentuated the living nightmare he was made to endure for nearly a year while only a half-hour drive from the capital of the nation. As testimonies from Quantico staff, health professionals, and the private himself continued late into the night all week, often for hours without intermissions, more unraveled about not just the torturous conditions imposed on Pfc. Manning but the blatant mismanagement in the same institution he is accused of blowing the whistle on.

CONTINUED...

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/the-torture-of-bradley-manning

[uppityperson]

4. Are people really comparing Snowden to MLK and Ghandi? seriously?

[Bragi]

6. Huh? People? nt

[uppityperson]

7. I understand your OP says why you can not, and I am asking if people are. Aside from how they are

locked up, are there differences? Or is the only reason you can not compare is because now people are locked up differently and can not "lead their political movement" from jail?

"It seems unlikely that MLK or Gandhi would have signed on for that" seems to indicate that MLK and Ghandi would not have done what they did only because they'd be locked up and not able to lead from prison. I disagree with that, think they both would have been fine signing on to a more restrictive prisonhood than they were. They knew death might be there for them, you think they would have balked at restrictions when in prison?

I disagree.

[VanillaRhapsody]

19. YES they are...right here..

I counted 3 Founding Fathers....Rosa Parks....Martin Luther King Junior, Ghandi and finally Jesus....


Seriously!

[randome]

91. "And a Virgin Mary in a pear tree!"

Work up next year's Christmas song!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Rules are made to be broken. Including this one.[/center][/font][hr]

[VanillaRhapsody]

92. I don't believe in pear trees

sorry!

[brush]

84. Ahhh . . . MLK was not in jail but for a short time . . .

during the span of the movement.

If that even means much. I'm just mentioning it because some here seem to think he was imprisoned for years and years and running the civil rights movement from a cell.

[last1standing]

8. Yes. I know it offends your sensibilities but they are, and rightly so.

MLK was no Gandhi and Gandhi was no MLK. They were both abundantly human as was Mandela, as was Rosa Parks, as is Edward Snowden.

It is now incontrovertible that Snowden's actions have exposed illegal and unethical workings by our government and that would never have happened if he had tried to go through the chain of command or if he had stayed in this country to be locked up with no access to outside communication.

I'm sorry if his having a stripper girlfriend or boxes in his garage makes him unworthy to join the ranks of MLK and Gandhi in your eyes, or if it's merely the fact that it hurt Obama's feelings.

While Snowden may have temporarily harmed the government of this nation, he has greatly served its people by exposing the machinations of a government out of control. That, in itself, makes him worthy of the comparison.

[uppityperson]

10. My my my, don't you get tired? Making all those assumptions, jumping to those conclusions?

Yes, Snowden did expose illegal and unethical workings but he is no MLK and no Ghandi.

"I know it offends your sensibilities but they are, and rightly so." What is the "they" that are and what does "rightly so" mean? Do you mean MLK and Ghandi are compared to Snowden and rightly so? Why do you say that?

"I'm sorry if his having a stripper girlfriend or boxes in his garage makes him unworthy to join the ranks of MLK and Gandhi in your eyes, or if it's merely the fact that it hurt Obama's feelings. "

You must have very strong legs, to make a leap like that.

[last1standing]

13. LOL! I did long jump in highschool.

I say they all were willing to suffer for what they believed was right (and yes, Snowden is suffering). They all had, or have, issues but they all did extraordinary good for the people.

Regardless, that was a good comeback.

[uppityperson]

20. I seldom post in GD these days as it seems snark is the major comeback. I hold MLK and Ghandi

highly in different ways. Snowden, his case is more complicated. I hope in time it will become clearer. It can be difficult to see it all when it is too close.

Thank you and yes, I am guilty of snark also.

[last1standing]

30. Most of us are far too guilty.

When I came back I told myself I wouldn't stoop to that level. But when you get hit so many times by those who are here with the only purpose of shutting down any debate that doesn't support their beliefs, you end up right down in the mud with them. That's true on both sides of the conversation.

It's a shame because I would very much like to hear competing views, I just get tired of having mine shut down. So I end up being much less of the person I think I am.

Anyway, thanks.

[Violet_Crumble]

73. Totally agree with yr take on Snowden, MLK and Ghandi...

I don't think Snowden's in the same league as MLK and Ghandi, who were both civil rights leaders, though I do think Snowden had little option but to run if he wanted the info he had released to the public. It would have been far better if there was a process in place for whistleblowers with that sort of big stuff that kept them safe, but I honestly don't know enough about it all to decide whether he's a good guy acting out of altruism or someone who was looking for their few months basking in the media spotlight...

[VanillaRhapsody]

22. That is in NO WAY the same kind of "suffering" those men endured...

not EVEN freaking close....

Besides they didn't choose what happened to them...that's 2 BIG differences right there!


It is to laugh.....comparing his being cold in a flat in Russia...compared to what Ghandi and MLK suffered...

[Adrahil]

80. <sigh>

I notice how conveniently leave out the legitimate foreign intelligence operations Snowden revealed, and his apparent willingness to aid the intelligence services of a country willing to give him permanent asylum. He did expose some things perhaps worth exposing. But let's gloss over the bad stuff he did for convenience's sake.

[riderinthestorm]

12. No. The OP is about why Snowden's situation is NOT like MLK or Ghandi

But you'd know that if you read the OP...

[uppityperson]

15. Good grief.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4424219

[OnyxCollie]

9. Let's ask Chelsea Manning if Snowden should have stayed.

Let's ask Anwar Al-Awlaki if Snowden should have gone to Hong Kong or Russia.

[struggle4progress]

24. What is your theory about how the US should proceed against persons who appear to be organizing

terrorist strikes against targets in the US from abroad, when there is no reasonable possibility of apprehending them through ordinary criminal justice procedures?

[Rumold]

66. summary execution , of course

if they "appear" (your word) to be plotting , of course we should execute them.

[struggle4progress]

67. Sarcasm isn't particularly informative. al-Awlaki was demonstrably in contact with

a number of persons who engaged in terrorist attacks or terrorist attempts

Had he been a member of a foreign government, these attempts and attacks quite probably would have been regarded as acts of war

And had he been within the reach of criminal justice, he would quite probably have been prosecuted on charges of conspiracy to commit terrorist acts

But he was not a representative of a foreign government, and he hid himself away in a region outside the reach of the criminal law

What would be your notion of the proper way to proceed?

[Rumold]

76. there is no sarcasm

he was summarily executed.

you appear to agree with that.

[VanillaRhapsody]

34. Chelsea Manning is Military....FAR FAR worse treatment if you are military

You know what Leavenworth is right?

[arely staircase]

14. I am not sure how staying could have helped him

get the information he stole to Putin's secret police.

[VanillaRhapsody]

36. hmmmmm you may just have a point there...

[TroglodyteScholar]

57. Was there a break in this story that I didn't hear? n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

23. Fuckin' YUP.

[Agnosticsherbet]

26. He went to a country where individual rights are held in the highest esteem

by a government that would never spy on its own people.

Leave the poor guy alone.

[OnyxCollie]

39. Safe from assassination by Predator drone in Hong Kong and Russia.

[Agnosticsherbet]

43. He is in a country that protects the rights of its people to be free

from unlawful search and seizure, who protect individual privacy.

Leave the poor man alone.

[OnyxCollie]

55. When the leader of the free world

decides it can execute someone without a trial, in addition to declaring the entire world a battlefield, one who exposes the crimes of said leader must hide out in less than pleasant places to ensure survival, particularly places where a missile attack would start a world war.


Attorney General Eric Holder Speaks at Northwestern University School of Law
Chicago ~ Monday, March 5, 2012
http://www.justice.gov/iso/opa/ag/speeches/2012/ag-speech-1203051.html

Some have argued that the President is required to get permission from a federal court before taking action against a United States citizen who is a senior operational leader of al Qaeda or associated forces. This is simply not accurate. “Due process” and “judicial process” are not one and the same, particularly when it comes to national security. The Constitution guarantees due process, not judicial process.

[newfie11]

70. + infinity!!!

[mike_c]

32. the intellectual dishonesty of those who completely avoid the point....

Is Snowden being compared to Gandhi or MLK?

No.

But you know that, of course.

[VanillaRhapsody]

38. YES He HAS!

and to 3 Founding Father's and Rosa Parks Too! I was counting them off because I jokingly asked....how long before someone compares him to Jesus....and someone finally did!

[Thinkingabout]

41. Was MLK or Ghandi charged with Espionage? Guess I missed that one. This two are

Terrible to compare Snowden. Not even similar. Nelson Mandella spent many years in prison but still not a comparison with Snowden. I am becoming more suspicious of his relationship with Putin and Russia. Putin had expressed the need for Snowden not to reveal any more but either he has or those with whom he entrusted with the information so it makes me wonder how deep the relationship really lies. He knew what location to go, just too many details is coming out.

[rug]

45. No. He's doing more good now than if he were in a federal prison.

[VanillaRhapsody]

50. he still ain't no hero....

heroes don't run...heroes have the power of their convictions LIKE Muhammed Ali!

[rug]

52. Hero, schmero. He's revealing important things.

Do you prefer he not?

[VanillaRhapsody]

53. THIS thread is about the Hero worshipping of him....

not what YOU think of him....unless that IS what you think!

[Union Scribe]

63. ...no, it isn't.

This thread is about Snowden's decision to go rather than stay, and the effects of that decision.

[VanillaRhapsody]

64. and whether or not that makes him a "hero"

[Union Scribe]

65. That really isn't what the article is about.

It isn't about whether he's a hero or not. It's specifically about the possibility of leading a movement from jail in the era of King versus now. That has nothing to do with being a hero or how angry some DUers get when someone calls him a hero.

[Bragi]

86. Quite so! nt

[Cha]

58. Like a little sneaky thief in the night?..

Hopping around Hong Kong, talking about a cushy gig in Iceland(till they voted NO on his ass), ending up in Russia courtesy of Vladmir Putin?

"These nations, including Russia, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, and Ecuador have my gratitude and respect for being the first to stand against human rights violations."

http://wikileaks.org/Statement-by-Edward-Snowden-to.html

Don't think it was in his nature not to run and hide.

[bemildred]

88. Perhaps forcing Snowden to stay in Russia and seek asylum there was a mistake?

He is in Russia now because somebody revoked his passport, and it was made apparent that his travel rights might not be respected, should he happen to get it back. It was quite a spectacle.

[redgreenandblue]

68. He'd been in a hole for the next 25 years or so if he did.

[snot]

71. Can we afford to reject any good anyone does for us?

K&R'd.

And standing against attacks on the messenger.

[Savannahmann]

74. There is an old saying

He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day.

If Snowden had remained, and been captured, he might be elevated to a martyr, but he would also be treated as inhumanely as possible.

[baldguy]

75. Just to reiterate: Reason is a RW libertarian propaganda outlet.

[Bragi]

87. I see that

I read the article and thought it made a good case on point. I didn't assess the whole website.

Having said that, as someone who usually gets classified as a left-wing libertarian in those online tests one takes, I am not surprised, as I often find myself in agreement with right wing libertarians on matters of civil rights, due process, etc.

This seems to be one of those instances, as I am far more interested in the information about illegality that Snowden has revealed than I am worried about his breaches of national security that so worries the authoritarian lefties here.

[randome]

78. Hey, here's an idea.

Maybe Snowden should slip back into the country and lead the Occupy Movement! Imagine the focus!

Or maybe not.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[bemildred]

79. Post-factual speculation is fun but pointless. The fact is he split. nt

[SidDithers]

82. Did Paul Revere run away?...nt

Sid

[randome]

85. You missed your opportunity.

"Did Paul Revere run away when they bombed Pearl Harbor?"

There. Free of charge.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[NCTraveler]

83. Never seen anyone compare him to MLK or Gandhi.

Anyone who does compare him to those two is a dolt. Another article about Snowden, and not the NSA. That is how Snowden wanted it. He accomplished his goal, just didn't fully play out as he expected.