Serious question about a Muslim that does his praying while at work...

[Unrepentant Fenian]

One of the guys I work with is a devout Muslim, originally from the Sudan. He's a great guy. I get along well with him, but don't really know him all that well. I've noticed him saying his prayers a few times. Each time I saw him he was facing ENE (East North East). I work in the Seattle area, so I thought he should be facing South East.

I asked him if they are supposed to face a certain direction while praying. He explained that they should be facing Mecca. He didn't mind my question at all and was very nice about explaining how it works. He even told me they have a smart phone app to help them with figuring which way to face.

My question to you is, should I tell him that he is facing the wrong way when he's praying? I think he probably used his phone app in the building to orient himself and I think the app is what's throwing him off. I don't want to offend the guy and I'm not sure of how big a deal the direction is to him. I'm not a religious guy at all, but it seems that it's important to him. So what do I do, do I tell him or do I mind my own business???
Thanks in advance for your help.

[Duer 157099]

1. Well...

considering that we live on a round planet, I think whichever way he faces will face Mecca. No?

ETA: LOL at myself. Too early to post thoughts about direction I suppose. Sigh.

[etherealtruth]

2. Let him use his smart phone app

Continue your respectful attitude ... he will be fine with his god ... and you will be fine with him

Edit : spelling

[cbayer]

4. Great answer.

[valerief]

3. Unless you, too, are Muslim, why would you care? If you don't believe in the teachings of Islam,

then what difference does it make where he faces, especially when he thinks he's facing the right way?

[tblue37]

11. Because it important to the man to perform his prayers properly, and if the OP feels friendly toward

his co-worker, he would want to be helpful.

[Unrepentant Fenian]

13. Thank you!

[valerief]

14. What is "properly" when he doesn't believe in Islam? There is no "properly".

There's only the feelings of the praying man, and he's content, so why upset him with stuff the nosey guy doesn't believe in?

[CJCRANE]

16. For orthodox believers there is usually a "proper" way to do certain rituals.

There may be a reason why the praying man faces NE rather than SE as other posters have pointed out.

In any case, it's a learning experience for one or both of them.

[Bluenorthwest]

44. The same reason I might inform a Kosher eater or Vegan that there is pork in the egg roll

they are eating. Common courtesy.

[valerief]

58. I consider keeping your nose out someone's religion common courtesy. Oh, well, different strokes! nt

[Travis_0004]

5. Leave him be, he is correct

The shortest distance from Seattle to Mecca is North East, since the planet is round.

[tenderfoot]

8. Yep.

Learned all about that back in the late 70's.

[GCP]

20. Yes. Great Circle Route

http://www.levin.rutgers.edu/research/geography-paper.pdf

[Matariki]

39. Good point. We tend to think of the globe the way it's seen on a 2D piece of paper.

[pangaia]

40. Exactly.

The same as the 'great circle routes' when flying.
Even when flying from SF to Beijing, for example, one flies almost directly NNW, over Alaska,near Kamchatka, etc-- depends on winds..

[JaneyVee]

6. I think he would appreciate the tip. Just make sure you're 100% correct.

[KitSileya]

7. I think you should tell him.

Doublecheck that you are right first, of course, but since you said he was friendly when you asked your questions, it doesn't seem like he'll be offended. Reference his answer about what direction they should face during prayer when you point it out. If you could tie it to landmarks and building topography, even better.

[CJCRANE]

9. He's facing the right general direction so I think he'll be okay.

But it's a fair question though, at least you were being thoughtful.

[tblue37]

10. I would mention it and suggest that maybe his app is a bit glitchy.

He wants to be facing in the proper direction, so I imagine he would be gald to have the correct information.

ON EDIT: I see one post suggests that because the world is round, the app might be correctly identifying the *shortest* distance to Mecca. That is an interesting point--and the perfect opening for raising the issue. Point out that you assumed that he would face in a certain direction, and at first were surprised that his app gave him a different orientation. Then ask whether the requirement would be to find the shirtest distance on the sphere or the "map" orientation, which is what your direction seems to be.

That way you would be "alerting" him to a possible problem with his app without seeming to be telling a religious person that you know more than he does about his religious practices.

[etherealtruth]

18. there are sites online that will direct you, as well

they all direct one to face the northeast

[MADem]

12. The earth is round. ANY way you face will bring you to Meccah.

Think about it.

Seattle has been a hotbed of "Which way is best?" in the Muslim world, FWIW....

http://www.onislam.net/english/health-and-science/faith-and-the-sciences/410128-9-scientific-methods-to-locate-qibla-direction-.html

Leave it be, is my advice. He's aiming at the Ka'aba over the pole.

[cherokeeprogressive]

17. "ANY way you face will bring you to Meccah." Are you sure?

Last edited Sun Jan 26, 2014, 03:04 PM - Edit history (1)

Seems to me that travel in a straight line will always bring you back to your starting point and if Mecca doesn't lie somewhere on that line, you're screwn.

[MADem]

22. I'm talking north/south/east/west. You didn't grasp that from the context of my comments, or the

link I provided, either?

This guy isn't giving us a specific coordinate or a precise 'line,' he's saying the guy is facing in the "wrong" general direction.

I'm saying that you can face any way--N/S/E/W--and get to Meccah, and I also provided a link that talks about the small controversy about finding Meccah from Seattle.

The man who is praying is going over the pole to get there. According to the Quibla locator, he's doing it right.

http://www.qiblalocator.com/

From Seattle:

Latitude
47.4973
Longitude
-1202.3292
Direction
17.59° N
Distance
12147 km

[Igel]

35. So if you're in the Marquesas, French Polynesia ...

You might wind up praying just about due north.

Way cool.

[madinmaryland]

51. Look at post #19, below. Basically an arc, is made of of three points...

There are the two end points and the center point. The two end points are Seattle and Mecca. Now think about where the center point is. It could be in NY, Philly, Miami, Rio, etc.

[cali]

15. this is a nice, respectful op. made me smile though

substitute christian for muslim in the title line and just imagine.

[seveneyes]

23. Precisely.

Had this been about the dreaded other mainstream religion, it would be quite a mess by now.

[Bluenorthwest]

45. Oh please. I can't remember the last post about Christian practice. This is actually about

the religious practice of a faith, not about that faith's political views, their sexism, their attempt to spruce up a bigoted image, it is about the actual 'how to' practice the faith. I tell you this, DU conversations 'about Christianity' can be brought to an instant halt by bringing up the actual teachings of Christ regarding 'how to' practice. The OP's are about persons and events and they are never, ever about the practice of the faith by those who follow it.

[petronius]

19. I think he's got it right - if anything it should be more NNE than ENE

Here's a great circle mapper for Seattle to Medina:

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=SEA+-+MED&DU=mi



(I know Medina isn't Mecca, but they didn't have an airport for Mecca. Should have chosen Jeddah, but I think MED is close enough for this purpose. )

[Unrepentant Fenian]

21. That's a great map! Thank you!

[Jesus Malverde]

25. nice map...thanks..nt

[Deep13]

37. bingo nt

[stlsaxman]

41. Bingo! I always wondered why, when flying from Atlanta to Europe you usually

fly over Nova Scotia and Iceland...? Thought the pilot was avoiding the Bermuda Triangle or some such shit.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

47. You're right, but the pilots will mumble about "great circle" ...

... because they don't want to show fear of the Bermuda Triangle.

And, as long as you get there in one piece, who cares?

[Fumesucker]

24. If you think this is complicated wait until Muslims go to other planets

Face a different direction for prayers every time.

[Glaug-Eldare]

28. The first Muslim astronauts

The first Muslim astronauts had an interesting time determining what constitutes five times a day when you circle the Earth several times a day!

[ZombieHorde]

29. !!!!!!!!!!! nt

[MADem]

42. Muslims invented math. Al-Gibra, geometry...they are to blame for all that homework

in junior high and high school! They're knee deep in engineers...I have every assurance that they'll find a way to figure it all out to their satisfaction.

In any event, there's all sorts of 'exceptions' with regard to prayer in the Qu'ran that they can fall back on. The important thing is to "make the effort." If that's a good faith one, it's not a crime to face the wrong way. It's even permissible for shi'a to pretend to be sunni, or a Muslim to pretend to be Christian, if they believe their life is in danger should they reveal their actual faith group.

[lame54]

26. I would vderify it first...

offer him proof and not just your opinion - that should avoid a uncomfortable back and forth

[Cleita]

27. Unless you also are Muslim, mind your own business.n/t

[roody]

30. No. If he is happy with it, let it go.

[Wounded Bear]

31. Interesting discussion...

I must admit, when I read the OP I fell into the same trap, thinking of my old Mercator Projection maps and not the great circle routes over the poles.

In answer to the OP, though, I think I would probably go the "mind my own business" route. Of course, it might be an interesting theological discussion (for another forum, I guess) as to whether God (in whatever form) requires one to take or face the shortest route to "Mecca" or what kind of map projection God uses.

Technically, the shortest route to Mecca would be down, at an ESE angle, right?

edit: Too many esssssssessss in guess.

[Yo_Mama]

32. His phone app is correct

Look at a globe. He's facing towards Mecca in the shortest line.

[Major Nikon]

60. The shortest route is almost due north

ENE would be certainly closer than SE.

[pinto]

33. My take - He'll be OK. I suspect his intent counts in his faith. And your consideration says a lot.

Thanks for the post.

[El_Johns]

34. MYOB -- it will end awkwardly otherwise.

[Deep13]

36. He's facing the right way.

The world is round, remember, and the shortest path may not be a straight line on a flat map. That's why an airplane going from the USA to Europe will cross into the arctic for the shortest route.

[struggle4progress]

38. Exactly what it means to "face" a certain direction for religious purposes may depend

on the religion and, for a given religion, on which tradition one follows: see, for example, Daniel Levin's Which Way is Jerusalem? Which Way is Mecca? (pdf) in Journal of Geography 101 (27 - 37)

The "correct" calculation of this direction has been a topic for Islamic mathematicians for centuries, and the answer rather depends on interpretation -- and there have been several of these

Jan Hogendijk's talk, Methods for finding the qibla in the medieval Islamic tradition (pdf), gives some early examples, including the apparently simple and practical "Use the direction of the road leaving your city towards Mecca" -- an interpretation which, I suppose, could yield some oddities nowadays, if (say) people chose to pray towards the nearest airport, but which also might produce some useful discussions, contrasting the fact that successful journeys may not immediately and always head directly towards the intended destination with the fact that the successful traveler will nevertheless want to remember where s/he is really headed

For a Mercator projection, the line drawn between "here" and Mecca provides a constant bearing that would convey one from "here" to Mecca if followed. But this rhumb line does not give the shortest route: The shortest route, between two points on the surface of an ideal spherical earth, is the shorter of the two arcs of the great circle that passes through both points

Levin suggests that the great circle is a common modern interpretation. I think the webpage Geometric Calculation of Qibla Direction gives the result for this calculation, with the caution that magnetic north is not true north

Using the formula at page 27 of Levin's page, with the coordinates for Seattle and Mecca (47.6° N 122.3° W and 21.4° N 39.8° E respectively, I compute

ArcTan(Sin{(122.3 - (-39.8))}/(Cos{47.6} Tan{21.4} - Sin{47.6} Cos{(122.3 - (-39.8))}))

which is about 17.6° clockwise from true N. This seems to agree, more or less, with the results that pop up if you google "kibla seattle"

[alarimer]

43. Well the world IS round, so technically it doesn't matter.

Leave him and his delusions alone.

It will literally make NO difference at all.

[mr blur]

46. Well, he's just talking to himself, so what does it matter?

It's harmless, if very amusing.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

48. Maybe his phone app is wrong? Don't worry about it (nt)

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

49. Wait, what? There's an app for that?

... maybe he has the call to prayer setting on vibrate instead of loud singing. Sort of a virtual minaret.

[Nye Bevan]

50. Would you say to a Catholic, "hey, you really shouldn't be eating meat today"?

Last edited Sun Jan 26, 2014, 05:02 PM - Edit history (1)

Would you tell a Jewish person, "you do know that's not Kosher, don't you?"

I wouldn't say either of those things, and I wouldn't presume to tell a Muslim that he is not facing Mecca correctly when he prays. Keep your nose out of it.

[LeftyMom]

52. You don't need to tell him he's doing his religon wrong, that's what converts are for. ;)

[kestrel91316]

53. You mind your own business. Don't ever try to tell a person

how to tend to specific details of their religious practice when it is not also your own religion. Unless you are looking to start a fight.

Basic common courtesy.

[Nye Bevan]

54. I wouldn't even do it if it *was* my own religion.

Different people practice the same religion in different ways.

[FrodosPet]

55. Great Circle direction: Mecca is north northeast from Seattle according to this website

http://iearth.somee.com/

[JI7]

56. great thread

a question concerning someone's religious practice but more about math and geography .

[ecstatic]

57. Don't say anything

It could lead to trust issues and friction. As long as he believes he's doing the right thing, he'll be fine. Don't make him second guess whether his past prayers were heard.

[MADem]

59. Thing is, he--the prayer--is correct. The thread starter is wrong.

So there is no need to "correct" the guy, because he had it right in the first place. The app he had wasn't in error.

[CJCRANE]

61. It's all good. The OP learned something new

and so did most of us on this thread.

Plus the OP asked for advice first and received enough information to make a good decision.