Stoned driving epidemic puts wrinkle in pot debate

[MindMover]

DENVER — Angeline Chilton says she can't drive unless she smokes pot.

The suburban Denver woman uses medical marijuana to ease multiple sclerosis symptoms and says she'd never get behind the wheel right after smoking. But her case underscores a problem that no one's sure how to solve: How do you tell if someone is too stoned to drive?

States that allow medical marijuana have grappled with determining impairment levels for years. And voters in Colorado and Washington state will decide this fall whether to legalize the drug for recreational use, bringing a new urgency to the issue.

A Denver marijuana advocate says officials are scrambling for limits in part because more drivers acknowledge using the drug.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501363_162-57399543/stoned-driving-epidemic-puts-wrinkle-in-pot-debate/?

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The difference is, you cannot be saturated with alcohol and live, let alone drive......

[Proud Liberal Dem]

1. Sort of a dilemma

My understanding is that Marijuana can and does slow reflex times and make one more relaxed, so that can present a challenge in driving I'm sure. I'm not sure that anybody can drive safely while under the influence, even if using is medically recommended.

[Zhade]

55. Indica can do that; sativa strains do not.

The former is the classic bodylock stone, the latter a cerebral uplifting agent.

[RKP5637]

2. I have nothing against pot and would like to see it fully legalized. That said, it can

Last edited Sun Mar 18, 2012, 02:30 PM - Edit history (1)

IMO imped some peoples driving when really really stoned. Somehow there needs to be some guidelines and ways to know/enforce acceptable levels for driving, at least IMO. ... of course, prescription drugs can also screw up ones driving too. I sure don't have the answers, but it's IMO a real challenge to find the right solution.

Edit update: One poster (see #10, Comrade Grumpy) had a good idea on this IMO.

Can they pass a field sobriety test?

If one is driving impaired for whatever reason, maybe a field sobriety test is the bottom line. There are so many variables IMO in trying to assess/regulate acceptable levels ... because there are so many chemicals that can make one a bad driver/risk on the road.

[Comrade Grumpy]

3. The last hurrah of the prohibitionists.

Assassin of youth. Nope.

Makes men grow breasts. Nope.

Turns you into a psycho killer. Nope.

Amotivational syndrome. Sorry.

Gateway drug. Repeatedly debunked.

It's addictive! About like coffee.

[gulliver]

4. Simple. Play Asia.

If they enjoy it, they are too stoned to drive.

[saras]

5. It's a completely and utterly false issue from the get-go. Why give it legs?

It's been discredited, with scientific tests, for many generations. There's a huge pile of bogus industrial accident stats because they always check for pot and pot sticks around a long time, but if you start working with the data, you find pretty much NO effect. Whatever bad effect it has on your DRIVING is outweighed by your JUDGMENT compensating for it. The problem with alcohol is that the JUDGMENT is impaired even worse than the performance.

So expect someone to start generating NEW bogus statistics...

The impairment level is detected by driving tests. There is no discernable relationship between dose and behavior, which is quite UNlike the extreme predictability of alcohol.

Next up - marijuana causes child molestation.

[cbayer]

7. I will just say this

Based on my (very) personal experience, there are those of us that should NEVER drive after smoking MJ.

Never.

[RKP5637]

15. Yep! +1, n/t

[Rex]

27. I agree...a sloth should never drive a car.

Lethargic people can cause all kind of problems in traffic. That is what I am assuming you are getting at.

[cbayer]

30. Exactly. "Some" people, lol, forget they are driving and sit still at green lights or

go 20 in a 50mph zone or get so caught up in a song on the radio that they start hitting the accelerator in time to the music..

or so I've been told.

[Rex]

39. LOL!

Yeah...'they' hit the accelerator in time to the music when stoned and not when they are 'normal' or sober...only a real idiot would do that sober...

[cbayer]

41. My apologies if you do that sober!

[Rex]

47. Oh no this is worse...

I might have been...I mean 'they' might have been honking the horn as well as tapping the accelerator, at least that is what I was told.

[elehhhhna]

50. thank you

how bout we already have laws about speeding, etc. and we enforce those.

wanna talk about dangerous stupid driving habits? Fine. If one more asshole who's texting while driving drifts into my lane i'm going to lose it.

[cbayer]

6. People shouldn't drive when there level of awareness and reaction times are altered

by anything.

That goes for intoxicants, lack of sleep or extreme emotional states.

There are devices that can be used to measure whether someone is impaired or not. They measure concentration and reaction time. Artificial limits like BAL aren't always good at measuring level of impairment and THC levels are absolutely useless.

[Rex]

40. +1

.

[superpatriotman]

51. +1

It's already treacherous enough on the roads. What you said.

[MadHound]

8. What a horribly misleading headline

There is no "epidemic" of driving while stoned, and the article doesn't mention one. The only thing it mentions is that the number of drivers who were involved in fatal accidents rose eighteen percent.

This is just more scare tactics put out by the media, using hot button words and misleading stats.

[Bennyboy]

9. Nobody is EVER too stoned to drive (NOBODY EVER)

Seriously. Equating to alcohol is a false equivalency. Cannabis is mild mind expansion substance that makes you more aware of EVERYTHING.

Studies (all done, of course, in other countries,) indicated that cannabis is no more dangerous to driving than cell phones, fast food or many of the other every day distractions that are allowed while driving. For some groups, males under 30, it actually helps them driving. they don't speed and are more aware of their surroundings..

Cannabis use does not affect motor skills, thinking skills, judgement etc.

It gets you high, that's all.

The epidemic is totally manufactured by the police. Now they test you for it when they do the DUI test (Always insist on breath analysis), and with pot staying in your system for a long time, more and more people are bumping that statistic, not that they are a danger on the road....

[cherokeeprogressive]

21. It's ALWAYS more convincing (ALWAYS ALWAYS) when one provides cites for their claims.

Cite one of the studies that says cannibis is no more dangerous to driving than cell phones (which, I might add, are illegal to use while driving just about EVERYWHERE).

"It gets you high, that's all". Yes, and that's the point.

Doesn't it ever get discouraging when people who've smoked pot for 35+ years (like me), which is probably longer than most current smokers have lived stand up and say "wait a minute, while I've driven on pot, I DON'T THINK IT'S A GOOD IDEA AND SHOULD BE ILLEGAL"? And, those of us who've smoked for that long understand the difference between your Daddy's pot, and TODAY'S.

Forgetting to turn the headlights on, hitting the brakes HARD because you remembered where you were planning to turn at the last second, cranking the tunes so loud that you don't even notice the emergency lights in your rear-view mirror are ALL things long-time pot smokers have done, and are DANGEROUS. But...

Your post completely ignores the 800 lb gorilla: REACTION TIME.

So show me a study, (done here OR over there) that says reaction time is affected NOT AT ALL. Zero. EXACTLY the same as not stoned. Not a THOUSANDTH of a SECOND different.

For some reason, I don't think you can, or will.

And don't tell me you're not my research assistant... I know that. YOU made the claim, now provide a cite to back it up.

[randome]

29. Thank you for a common sense point of view.

Unfortunately, I don't expect it to get much discussion.

[Bennyboy]

33. I've smoked weed for over 40 years

and have driven well in excess of a million miles. all of them (or most of them anyway) stoned. I've never forgotten to turn on my lights, forgot where I was etc. I mean playing the radio loud is only for stoners? Please, we all do that stuff anyway. Space where you are? That happens to everyone, not just stoners.

And that crap about today's pot? again, a false equivalency. It takes you less to get stoned to your comfort level that is all. Instead of puffing down on an eighth at one sitting now it takes a few puffs to get you there. BTW, sinsimella has been around since you started smoking.

And again, you're reading comprehension needs a lotta work. I never cied NEVER. I said, that studies show tht it is no more dangerous than cell phones, fast food etc. Not never. There is a risk to everything. Should we ban cell phones? (well that one is up to debate right now because they are FAR MORE Dangerous than pot) Fast food? Radios? I pods? What about hot chicks (or Dudes) in the seat next to you? Electronic billboards (Which I find the utmost distraction)

So for finding you a link to something that is not what I said is gonna be hard. Do though look at the Aussie test, the British tests and then determine for your self.

You can't negate every risk.

[cherokeeprogressive]

37. "I never cied (sic) NEVER". Did you read your own subject line? Here, let me help you out...

"Nobody is EVER too stoned to drive (NOBODY EVER)"

I'm still trying to figure out where you were able to buy a four-mile wide brush...

[Bennyboy]

42. whatever.

Seriously I got way better thing to do than argue with you about some bullshit propaganda.

Think I'll go for a drive. Gotta couple caramels and some dank Blue Dream and half a tank of gas. TURN IT UP AS LOUD AS IT WILL GO!

[cherokeeprogressive]

45. Enjoy, and stay safe. While you and I might be alright to drive while stoned

there are those who aren't. Watch out for them.

I have to admit though... driving the Freightliner for CRST while stoned was a wild experience. Especially on I-80 between Laramie and Cheyenne in the wintertime.

Have a good drive, and as Ronnie Van Zandt said... "Turn it up..."

[Electric Monk]

60. "And again, you're reading comprehension needs a lotta work. I never cied NEVER."

Is it safe to assume you're (you are) high right now?

[JonLP24]

44. It is pretty much the same

as Daddy's. Potency claims are often overstated and THC levels vary widely between strains and depending on how the crop is harvested. There is ditchweed and what they call "chronic". Also region too, Washington state often had great weed at-least 95%, in Arizona 95% of it is garbage.

I was just addressing that, your larger point I don't think there is a study that says none. There are studies that show it has a negative effect and ones that show a very minor one. I don't want to have it legal to smoke and drive but remember, you can drink 1 or 2 beers and still legally be able to drive and 1 or 2 beers, I doubt has no affect on reaction time.

[panader0]

58. I have to take issue with the claim that "in Arizona 95% of it is garbage"

Do you live here in Az? Come on over some time.......

[JonLP24]

63. Yup, that is where I am right now

I probably exaggerated but compared to Washington, most of the stuff here isn't as a great.

[Rex]

34. While I don't think there is an epidemic (cue fake drama)

I've seem people far, far gone from hitting the bong and could never drive or even should try to. Sometimes too much really is too much.

[cbayer]

48. Not sure where you live, but that's just not the case.

While that might have been true when people were smoking garbage, the quality and potency of MJ in places like CA definitely leads to states in which people should not drive.

And the argument that it is no worse than talking on a cell phone is hollow, because there are lots of studies that concretely demonstrate that that activity causes a significant level of impairment. Hence the increasing number of laws banning the use of cell phones while driving.

But I do agree that testing for THC levels is totally useless.

[Comrade Grumpy]

10. If you want to bust someone for impaired driving, show they are impaired.

Can they pass a field sobriety test? That should be the test.

There are bills afoot in various state legislatures to make the presence of THC above certain specified levels the only evidence required to get a drugged driving conviction, like with alcohol. In some bills and already in some states, that level is 0.0.

But there isn't good science for what would be an appropriate THC level to criminalize in drivers. There is some evidence marijuana smokers compensate for being high by being more cautious. There's the old saw about "The drunk driver sees the stop sign and blows right through it; the stoned driver waits for it to turn green," which has an element of truth.

There is also evidence that "naive" or inexperienced smokers are more likely to be impaired. There are also a legion of middle-aged pot smokers who have been toking and driving for decades and claim they are just fine.

Bottom line for me: Show me the impairment. Don't rely on arbitrary, no-scientific-basis THC levels.

[RKP5637]

22. +1, bottom line, field sobriety test - works for anything. n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

24. I would be okay with a reliable, recordable REACTION TIME test.

With an added requirement that if you THINK you might smoke pot and drive, you MUST visit a DMV and provide a baseline REACTION TIME test from which to compare if you get stopped on the road.

No baseline test? Busted. Baseline test and a current reaction time within acceptable limits? Have a good night Sir or Ma'am.

I have no problem with that at all.

[RKP5637]

31. You have the best idea IMO. See my post #2. n/t

[Bennyboy]

35. Exactly, show me the impairment.

Once we can show that, then okay I am with oyu. bu for now, there is NO Evidence to back up the claims.

[gulliver]

38. Agreed

I was thinking maybe something like a simple video-game-like test. Or whatever they use in the scientific studies that are referenced in enacting the law. They are using scientific studies as the basis for the laws aren't they?

[WCIL]

59. This happened to my son

he was pulled over for not having his license plate illuminated, and the policeman decided there was "probable cause" to test him. He had trace amounts of marijuana in his system (in fact he passed a drug test the very next week), but in Illinois any amount of marijuana is impaired driving, and he has a DUI on his record.

[hlthe2b]

11. Too stoned to drive?

I realize in my somewhat limited experience I may miss the extremes, but I have never seen anyone moderately stoned drive fast or recklessly--they tend to slow way down. At a considerably higher level of "high" it seems they look for a place to chill out or sleep it off..

Again, limited experience, but I never had the same concerns with my more indulgent friends behind the wheel that I do with alcohol.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I haven't seen what happens with chronic higher "dose" use and it has admittedly been a long time since my college days. What say you?

[cherokeeprogressive]

26. As with alcohol, the longer the exposure, the higher the tolerance.

That doesn't mean a certain level of impairment goes down though. If that were the case, long time alcoholics would NEVER get 502's.

[Scuba]

14. You mean they can't tell by the erratic driving? Then what's the problem?

[TheKentuckian]

16. I think the propaganda was tipped at the use of epidemic to describe a largely speculative problem

On which it is highly debatable if there is a problem at all, if it is demonstrated to exist.

[Old and In the Way]

17. As someone who has driven under both conditions (even simulataeously),

I know alcohol impairment is, without question, a far more serious problem. It deserves to be criminalized behavior (and I say this as someone with 2 DUI's from more than 35 years ago on my record). The effects of driving "high" (whatever that really means), is far less easy to define and is more dependent on the person who has smoked it. In my case, I think I drove a little slower. While I don't promote smoking pot and driving, I can think of things that are more dangerous...text/talking on the phone while driving, for instance. Inexperience behind the wheel. Lack of situational awareness. All of these things can happen without anything in the bloodstream.

This whole concern about driving "under the influence of pot" is a red herring and another excuse not to decriminalize and/or liberalize existing pot laws.

[Warren Stupidity]

18. Back at the Prison Industrial Complex Media Center....

Okay, so what have we got?

Stoned Driving - yeah run that this week.
Gateway to slutty behavior - next week.
Welfare checks going to medical marijuana - yes need to run that angle.
Is your Pilot Stoned? - oh yes the horror of it all. Viral campaign needed a la Breitbart.

[MindMover]

23. What is the old saying about propaganda....

Propaganda is for the pushovers, in other words, for the people who do not really want to think.....

[cherokeeprogressive]

28. I guess there really IS a way to work percieved negative feelings about President Obama into EVERY

story or situation.

How does a discussion about whether or not it's safe to drive while stoned turn into a "but but but they hate President Obama!" discussion? Easy. Just wait for the right people to show up.

[FirstLight]

49. crikey

what knuckle-dragger put this together?... and IIRC, there were plenty of times we saw Bush hammered, and nobody even blinked ...

alcohol = white man's drug= fine
weed = black man's drug = criminal

fuckers

[cherokeeprogressive]

65. It is a fact that no one said ANYTHING about President Obama on this thread until YOU did.

YOU introduced his name here, and then posted a video that hit youtube two months after he was inaugurated to justify your "but but but they hate Obama" insertion.

I swear sometimes I think if I posted an OP about how I fucking HATE it when I burn my marshmallows more than medium brown when making S'mores at the campfire, someone would show up and either say "but but but they hate Obama and disrespect him so much!" or "Bush Sucks!".

[RKP5637]

67. It was not meant that way. I will delete them. n/t

[MindMover]

68. that is funny.....burn my marshmallows.....you are funny.....

[Vincardog]

19. If they are asleep they should not drive. Epidemic my a$$

[ellisonz]

20. Field sobriety test.

And they should have to videotape the entire test

[libodem]

32. Stoned drivers

Seem to drive slower and are hypervigilant. They don't seem to take a lot of chances doing stupid stuff that would get them pulled over and busted. Must be the additional paranoia factor.

Still I don't recommend impaired driving, especially for the super ripped.

[Jennicut]

66. I have been in the car with a stoned driver. It was not like that at all.

I was 16 and stupid and went on one date with this guy. His friend drove us back home and he was high. Drove with the lights off, all over the road. It was not a pretty picture and I swore never to get in a car with anyone drunk or high ever again. I am for legalizing marijuana but not for stoned driving.

[Bluenorthwest]

43. Epidemic? Where did that panic word come from?

Can't take such hype seriously enough to discuss.

[think]

46. They might want to take this up with Mothers Against High Drivers (MAHD) /nt

[Politicalboi]

52. If they're too stoned to drive

They are living in the 70's. The shit today doesn't compare. Take it from someone who has been there. Marijuana is less potent today. Back in the day, you could have a bag in your pocket, and it could be smelled by others around you. Not today. Sure you go into a shop and it smells good, but the bag in your pocket isn't going to be traced by just standing next to someone. It ain't gonna stick on the wall like "our" skunk did. And it ain't gonna make your eyes red and glassy. They have NOTHING to worry about with the MJ today.

[MindMover]

53. There are thousands of varieties of cannabis.....

your dealer is supplying you with a newer variety.....there is still skunkweed around.....

[Politicalboi]

54. I go to the shops out here in Ca

I've yet to find ANY weed like that since the early 80's. I would sure like to find some old skunk weed, Thai weed, and Hawaiian. Today they give it a name, but it has nothing to do about it's origin. It's just a cool name that means nothing.

[Webster Green]

62. Dude

I grow the same stuff I grew in Humboldt in the early 80s. It will stick to the wall fer sure. I have lots of friends in Humboldt who still have the old skunk strains going.

I once had some really potent "Hawaiian", that had a few seeds in it. I grew it in Humboldt and it turned out to be Santa Marta Gold. It wasn't apparent until it was cured and in the bag, then it was unmistakable what it was.

Most of the modern popular strains are "haffie-affie". Potent Thai or Pakistani sativas crossed with Afghani indicas. I've seen good stuff in the shops, but actually prefer my own outdoor. I always leave an early male or two in the garden long enough to get just a few seeds, which will only be at the very bottom of the bud where it meets the main stem. (only the very early hairs get pollinated). I just pop them out while trimming, and always have enough seeds to keep things happening.

As for driving, I wouldn't dream of leaving without a joint for the road.

[Politicalboi]

56. Watching about MJ now on History

The guy who they are interviewing doesn't want to be identified, but they nearly showed his face, and he has tattoo's all over his arms. LOL! May as well put his name.

[Warren DeMontague]

61. The only "epidemic" is an epidemic of people finally calling bullshit on the drug war.

As such, the folks who have been riding that particular gravy train are in overdrive to find some justification for continuing an indefensible policy.

[spanone]

64. how do you know if people are taking too much of any medication? you don't.