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cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
Sun Mar 18, 2012, 12:45 PM Mar 2012

It is impossible to drill our way to $2.50 gas

Last edited Sun Mar 18, 2012, 09:30 PM - Edit history (6)

It is impossible to drill our way to $2.50 gas, meaning drill our way to a 40% reduction in the price of gas, all things other than US production being equal.

In a free market, transportable goods are worth what somebody will pay in Place X minus the cost of shipping the good to Place X.

A Chinese factory makes a widget to sell for $1.00. An American factory makes the same widget to sell for $1.25. Since it is costly to get the widget from China to the US the American product is fairly competitive. If the American product cost $2.00 it would not be competitive. It would still be cheaper for the US consumer to pay to haul the widget halfway around the world. (Unless it was something so big and heavy that the transport costs were exaggerated.)

Our inability to compete on price is a factor of low wages paid elsewhere, and also low transportation costs. Though energy is expensive, global transport is much more efficient than it used to be.

Now, if oil was $1,000/barrel it would hurt the US economy, since we are net energy importers, but it would make American manufacturers more competitive in the US marketplace because the cost of transporting goods from foreign nations would be much, much higher. At $1,000/barrel you would even see a factory in Seattle being substantially more competitive in California than a factory in New Jersey. There might be a need for small factories spaced out.

The less transportation costs the more centralization there is, and visa-versa. Since oil is fairly easy to ship it is a global market.

Why does the US rely on imported oil much more than imported natural gas? (We are a big natural gas producer.) Because it is very expensive to ship natural gas and fairly easy to ship oil. Why are so many existing US oil leases not being developed? Because the price of oil isn't high enough to make it worthwhile. (Would you rather pay $90, including delivery costs, for a barrel of oil from Iraq or $95, inluding delivery costs, for a barrel from Texas? When the Euro was weak, at 85 cents in the 90's, I used to buy some products on the internet from Europe because even with the high postage the delivered cost was lower than buying it here. Local is only cheaper if it is actually cheaper.)

It is almost irrelevant how much oil we drill in the USA. Drilling in the US is typically more expensive than drilling in Suadi Arabia or Iraq, not cheaper. And when a barrel of oil shows up at a refinery in Texas it costs the price plus the cost of getting it to Texas, no matter where it started out.

Since transportation costs are a relatively minor factor in the total price of oil it is impossible to drill our way to low gas prices. There is no reason for domestic production to be cheaper in the US than oil form somewhere else. (A barrel of oil is the same size and weight no matter the price. At $20/barrel tranportation costs would be a major factor. Say it costs $5 to ship a barrel somewhere. At $20 that's 25% of the price. At $100 it is only 5% of the price. And at that price a $94 barrel from Timbuktu is cheaper than a $100 barrel from your next door neighbor.)

Say we stipulate that the USA drills precisely as much oil as we use in the USA. How would that affect the price of gasoline in the USA? Very little… how could it? The oil companies are not charities. They will sell that US drilled oil to whoever will pay the most for it (minus transport costs), no matter where they are.

There would be some reduction due to lower transport costs. There would be some increase because American oil workers and truck drivers probably make more than in some places. On balance, very little effect.

Because if you want to make gasoline cheaper in place X ([font color=green]and are unwilling to nationalize the energy companies—if the government took control of all domestic energy the domestic production could have a distinct effect on domestic supply, and thus price. But I don't think the Republicans are planning to socialize US energy so that doesn't help there argument[/font color]) you have to make gasoline cheaper throughout the whole world. (Lowering gas prices in America is like lowering the water level in only 10% of your bathtub. It has to be lower everywhere or the oil will just flow to where people will pay the most money for it, until some equilibrium is reached.)

So there is no such thing as drilling enough in the US to make gas cheaper in the US. We would have to drill enough to greatly increase the supply of oil in the entire world marketplace, at or below current prices (production costs) which is absurd.

17 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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It is impossible to drill our way to $2.50 gas (Original Post) cthulu2016 Mar 2012 OP
So oil prices are essentially the same worldwide? hughee99 Mar 2012 #1
Government subsidies cthulu2016 Mar 2012 #3
No 1ProudAtheist Mar 2012 #4
I think nationalization should be an option here as well. hughee99 Mar 2012 #8
Precisely. re: Nationalization cthulu2016 Mar 2012 #9
Especially since cindyperry2010 Mar 2012 #2
Yet there are labor and equipment shortages, and zero unemployment in the US oil sector bhikkhu Mar 2012 #6
Yes. cthulu2016 Mar 2012 #11
U.S. exported more gasoline than imported last year liberal N proud Mar 2012 #5
We import oil and export refined product taterguy Mar 2012 #7
And Iran imported more gasoline than it exported... which means nothing. cthulu2016 Mar 2012 #10
It's not impossible all... MrScorpio Mar 2012 #12
Mmmmm.... pie. cthulu2016 Mar 2012 #13
. cthulu2016 Mar 2012 #14
Two words : Market speculation Initech Mar 2012 #15
The reasons are much less complex: hunter Mar 2012 #16
That is implicit in the analysis cthulu2016 Mar 2012 #17

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
1. So oil prices are essentially the same worldwide?
Sun Mar 18, 2012, 12:53 PM
Mar 2012

And the only difference is the transportation costs (and whatever local taxes are applied)?

Why is it that Venezuela, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait are paying less than a buck a gallon? Is it because their transportation costs are that much lower since it's produced locally, or because the governments make sure they hold a sufficient amount of oil back from the global market to satisfy domestic needs?

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
3. Government subsidies
Sun Mar 18, 2012, 01:14 PM
Mar 2012

Oil is traded as an international commodity with a price per barrel. Contract customers pay more or less depending on the particulars, including transport, but everything is pegged to the international commodity market "spot" price.

 

1ProudAtheist

(346 posts)
4. No
Sun Mar 18, 2012, 01:18 PM
Mar 2012

The oil industry is "nationalized" in each of those countries, and corporate profits and ceo salaries are taken out of the equation. There is also, little, if any, federal or state, gasoline taxes in those countries. Most citizens of such countries receive either a subsidy, or other compensation for the use of "their" natural resources.

Nationalizing the gas and oil industries in this country is the sole option for ever seeing gasoline prices in the $2.00 per gallon price range. Oil is sold on the global market to the highest bidder, and the US will never be able to control that price on a global scale. We no longer have a stranglehold on consumption.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
8. I think nationalization should be an option here as well.
Sun Mar 18, 2012, 01:35 PM
Mar 2012

I don't think drilling can affect global gas prices, but drilling combined with other policies (like nationalization and infrastructure changes) can change national prices.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
9. Precisely. re: Nationalization
Sun Mar 18, 2012, 03:33 PM
Mar 2012

If we drilled more in the US and nationaled the oil companies and the government made all US oil stay in the US then it could lower US gas prices a lot.

But unless a non-market actor, like a government, arbitrarily degrees that "our" oil cannot be exported then increased US production have to be so massive that it created a GLOBAL oil glut.

cindyperry2010

(846 posts)
2. Especially since
Sun Mar 18, 2012, 01:00 PM
Mar 2012

around 65% of the public leases held by oil companies are not being used. I realise that you cannot get oil out of every single one but come on

bhikkhu

(10,718 posts)
6. Yet there are labor and equipment shortages, and zero unemployment in the US oil sector
Sun Mar 18, 2012, 01:23 PM
Mar 2012

...for years now. I think it speaks more to how easy it is to write up vast oil leases.

In reality, nothing gets drilled unless it pencils out to be profitable, or is at least a reasonable gamble. Far more "dry holes" are drilled than wells that produce a profitable amount of oil, and leases are just pieces of paper - each one a gamble that others have probably passed on already many times, considering how long we have been exploring and drilling in the US.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
11. Yes.
Sun Mar 18, 2012, 09:09 PM
Mar 2012

Mpst leases are essentially low cost "options" on the price of oil. At usual prices they represent oil that costs more to extract than it's worth, but if oil price goes waaaay up those leases become very valuable.

Long shot gambles.

liberal N proud

(60,338 posts)
5. U.S. exported more gasoline than imported last year
Sun Mar 18, 2012, 01:20 PM
Mar 2012

Why do we need to drill to solve our energy problems when we are already exporting more than we import?

U.S. exported more gasoline than imported last year Feb 29, 2012

For the first time since 1949, the United States exported more gasoline, heating oil and diesel fuel last year than it imported, the Energy Department reported today.

Bloomberg writes that to offset weak U.S. demand, refiners exported 439,000 barrels a day more than were imported the year before. In 2010, daily imports averaged 269,000 barrels, according to the Petroleum Supply Monthly report.

Imports of crude oil and related products fell 11% last year, reaching a level not seen since 1995.

News of record gasoline exports comes as the pump price rose today for the 22nd straight day ($3.78 a gallon average) and the Energy Department reported separately that gasoline inventories fell last week while crude oil inventories and imports rose.


http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/02/us-exported-more-gasoline-than-imported-last-year/1

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
10. And Iran imported more gasoline than it exported... which means nothing.
Sun Mar 18, 2012, 03:38 PM
Mar 2012

We import oil and refine it into gasoline. We import some oil to refine into gasoline and then export some of the finished product to places with less refining capacity.

England used to export most of the world's cotton linen, yet grew no cotton. All the cotton was imported to English textile factories. Did the linen exports mean that England was cotton-independent?

Iran is the 5th largest oil producer but imports gasoline because Iran doesn't feel like building refineries to process their oil -- not cost effective.

MrScorpio

(73,631 posts)
12. It's not impossible all...
Sun Mar 18, 2012, 09:13 PM
Mar 2012

All we have to do is nationalize our existing oil reserves, taking all of our oil off the world market and make vehicles that can run at 150 times the rate on a gallon of gas than they currently do.

Piece of pie!

Initech

(100,086 posts)
15. Two words : Market speculation
Mon Mar 19, 2012, 11:11 AM
Mar 2012

I'm convinced the current prices have nothing to do with supply & demand - it's all out of control speculation - and it's not just limited to oil - but to goods we need every day like wheat and corn. If we start heavily regulating this rampant speculation and kick these assholes to the curb, hopefully this will start changing for the better.

hunter

(38,321 posts)
16. The reasons are much less complex:
Mon Mar 19, 2012, 11:59 AM
Mar 2012

All the easy oil is gone.

Places like Los Angeles used to export huge amounts of easily extracted, easily refined oil.

There were no multi-billion dollar deep sea oil platforms. U.S. oil companies would drill simple holes in the ground and the oil would flow out like water.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_Hill,_California

Now the world's easy oil is all gone. Extracting and refining what oil remains is a very expensive technical challenge, and often has extreme political consequences requiring very expensive military and paramilitary support and huge payouts to corrupt political systems.

Even without market speculation, regulatory frictions, wars, and the political corruption, gasoline in the U.S.A would still cost more than it did during peak U.S. production. Whatever people like Newt Gingrich claim, these extra costs are not going to be reduced greatly, not even by extremely competent political leaders like Barrack Obama.

If anything a rotten Republican Administration would increase the cost of oil far beyond the basic technical costs of extraction and refining.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
17. That is implicit in the analysis
Mon Mar 19, 2012, 12:43 PM
Mar 2012

I take it as a given that there is no oil in the oil in the US that can be "produced" at the cost of Saudi or Iraqi oil. And there is a good reason for that. Circa 1940 the USA exported a large majority of all the world's oil. We were the first nation to develop oil extraction in a big way and used up all the "low hanging fruit" before people even knew Saudi Arabia was floating on a lake of oil.

That's the starting point—that the US cannot undercut the world in any scenario. But it is not the end point because even if we could undercut Saudi Arabi (for instance) it wouldn't make gas prices here lower unless it 1) meaningfuly affected global supply, or 2) we nationalized the oil industry, which would actually not be cheap gas, but rather government subsidized gas. (If th government sells me a gallong of gas for $2.50 that the government could sell to someone in Japan for $5.00 then that's a government subsidy.

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