The protests in Kiev are surreal, deadly, and violent. (Pic heavy)

[Are_grits_groceries]

The citizens and the priests are not sitting it out.
I have no idea how this will end.
It would seem that the government will quash the protest by any means necessary.
However, the unexpected is ever present.




















@nycjim

[pscot]

1. Pictures!

[JNelson6563]

2. Heard a live report on NPR this am.

The reporter was in with a crowd of protesters and the riot police were coming in and it was pandemonium. Tear gas and other things, could hear gunfire. Bad. Very bad. I can only imagine what horrible ways this will end.

Julie

[Nictuku]

3. What are they protesting?

... it is not like we can depend on News on the TV any more. My guess is that they are protesting austerity, does anyone know if this is correct?

[geek tragedy]

5. They're protesting the government's decision to appoint Putin de facto

ruler of the Ukraine.

the government has responded by engaging in a Putinesque response.

[MattSh]

13. Uh, wrong.

This particular set of protests is in response to a set of laws passed in the Rada on January 16 basically outlawing many types of protests and demonstrations. At other times, it's been related to police violence, a crackdown on journalism, but it all started late November because the government refused to sign a highly detrimental trade agreement with the EU. It's had very little to do with Putin. Sorry to disappoint you.

Source: I live in Kiev.

[geek tragedy]

14. yes, the government refused to sign the treaty with the EU and instead

ran into the open arms of the Russian bear.

[TBF]

28. "the government refused to sign a highly detrimental trade agreement with the EU" -

What do you do in Kiev? Because that statement right there is very interesting.

[MattSh]

46. Teaching English some,

plus some technology and artistic work.

[TBF]

48. Sounds fun -

I have been reading some of the stories on Kiev and of course it is hard to find stories from the point of view of the protestors - I couldn't even find stories on "Watching America".

[dionysus]

6. they want to link up with the EU, and the people in charge want to be a satellite state of russia.

[TBF]

39. Maybe in a way they are -

if one feels that joining the EU would result in austerity (and I wouldn't be one to disagree really) ...

OK, so here is what I found online:

(one protestor's view)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10588829/Protesters-what-is-wrong-with-Ukraine-video-goes-viral.html

[Common Sense Party]

4. What, exactly, would satisfy the protesters? What do they want the government to do?

It seems like a lot of people are there just to watch the entertainment.

[pampango]

7. Yeah. Protesters are just out in the snow and cold to watch a good show.

Right now it is 16 degrees with snow and fog and a wind chill of +5 degrees and scattered gunfire and tear gas. Not exactly the kind of environment I would go to for a good show.

[Common Sense Party]

8. Yes, according to the BBC.

Thousands gather nightly at the scene of the conflict to cheer on the combatants.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25825929


From their report, there are a smaller number of active combatants throwing rocks and Molotov cocktails and shooting catapults at the police. But there are thousands watching the show.

[starroute]

10. So you think anyone not throwing Molotiv cocktails is just a spectator?

That's a pretty hardcore approach to protesting, and not one that seems to match up well with someone posting as "Common Sense Party."

[pampango]

11. That is what you got out of that BBC story. That there are "thousands watching the show" does not

mean that they are not there as peaceful protesters themselves who are not participating in the violence but cheer on those who do.

I doubt there are many people in Kiev who do not really care whether Ukraine allies itself with Russia rather than the EU who are coming out into the cold and snoe just to watch the excitement - particularly with the shooting and tear gas.

It is in the government's interest that the demonstrations are seen as violent. If there is not a small minority of protesters who are violent, it is easy for a government make sure that some are added to the mix. It is difficult politically to crack down violently on massive peaceful protesters, but once there is evidence of violent activity from the protesters (even if it is a tiny minority of them) accusations of 'terrorism' start to fill the air and all bets are off. Our republicans are good at there here at home.

[2naSalit]

9. They want the current president

to step down. It's much like the other countries in turmoil during the past several years of late. Their president sells them out to a charismatic neo-despot and they, naturally get pissed and put their feet down and reject the situation.

This is becoming too common, but it shows what's to come after the TPP gets into full swing (like an ax through a wall of human flesh).

And so it begins.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

12. Joining the European Union would satisfy them.

[MattSh]

15. The EU has not offered membership.

They've only offered a highly detrimental trade agreement that would put hundreds of thousands out of work, open the floodgates to European goods (most Ukraine goods do not meet EU standards and cannot be sold there), and impose austerity on retirees, government employees, and anyone who depends of government services.

The EU has enough headaches already without adding one that would automatically become their biggest headache of all.

[frwrfpos]

16. the "protesters" are made up of neo nazis

Religious right wing extremests and various right wing fascist elements...and the protesters are not hesitant to be extremely violent. They are angry because the ukranian goverment dares to align with russia and we all know that russia is evil and commie and all that bad lefist stuff that the extreme right wing violently hates.

Too bad for them..

[Are_grits_groceries]

18. Wrong!

There are several different groups. The violent protesters are by far made up of neo-Nazis and thugs hired by the Ukrainian president.
You keep making this only a neo-Nazi protest. It is far more complicated.

They don't like Putin and Russia and they want the freedom living without repression. They want more ties with Europe and the EU.

A large portion of the protesters want a better government. They are very unhappy with the present situation and the huge curtailment of rights. However, they also would like this to be handled in a less violent way. Even with the police thuggery, they are trying to work out a peaceful solution or at least a truce to halt the mayhem.

The neo-Nazis on the other hand want complete chaos. It furthers their aim of completely breaking down the government and possibly taking charge with violence too.

Stop oversimplifying this. You are intent on a mischaracterization that lines up with that of the Russian government.

[frwrfpos]

19. you are right

The violent extreme right wing amd their violent goons dont like russia..like i said too bad for them.the trade deals with the eu would be economically violent for workers and unions in ukraine and the ukranian gov rightly is rejecting being an austerity slave to the eu and their right wing puppets

Those violent protesters who want ukraine to be an austerity slave to the puppets in the eu can pound sand.

Russia is a good country with a long and proud history and that it is villanized here is shameful.

The commie hate propaganda is still thick..even in 2014...too bad less and less people are buying it anymore

[Are_grits_groceries]

23. Seriously?

I would like to know what long periods of Russian history there are to be proud of.

[FSogol]

30. My theory? Snow day for sophomore political science classes. n/t

[FSogol]

24. "Russia is a good country with a long and proud history" - Examples please.

[frwrfpos]

25. for starters

They largely by themselves fought and defeated the nazis during ww2...this countries leaders business community supported the nazis...henry ford being one and bushs grandfather was censured by congress under the trading with the enemies act.

A simple google search brings up dozens of articles and good unbiased factual books about the history of russia...

[FSogol]

26. You have to go back to WWII for an example? n/t

[frwrfpos]

27. you asked for an example and you were given one

Is comprehension an issue? Would you like more examples or do you think they wouldnt fit your narrative?

[FSogol]

29. I-s c-o-m-p-r-e-h-e-n-s-i-o-n a-n i-s-s-u-e? My narrative?

Good luck on DU, angry Comrade!

[frwrfpos]

33. you posted a popcorn smilie then you referred to me as comrade

Im an american,not russian. Forgive me if i came off as angry as im not angry,merely wondering if you think my example was inaccurate or unfactual. You asked why i went back to ww2. Perhaps my example needs more information?

[Are_grits_groceries]

34. Russia defeated the Nazis by themselves?

Really? Defeated the Nazis by themselves?
That would be news to many people.

Please list periods of Russian history that are to be praised. I don't mean several years, moments or people here and there. I want to know what periods you consider to be so good.

[frwrfpos]

36. im going to beas pleasant as i can

But perhaps you are unaware of the 100's of sources of information about ww2 that are freely available for reading. Yes it is factual that the main front was against russia and poland during ww2 and that russia largely defeated the nazis. The russians lost more soldiers fighting the nazis than any other country

Im really not up for giving a detailed history lesson as the reading and literature about the time period is available.

As for periods of time in russian history,that information is too, freely available at local libraries and the internet.

If you are genuinely interested i will provide links and sources when i get home

If this is not genuine but merely going to be "lets play cold war and commie!" Im not interested in
further discussion.

Please let me know

[Are_grits_groceries]

40. I am seriously interested in what periods you consider so great.

I am not even thinking in terms of communist, capitalist, or whatever. I am looking at history period.

Please don't tell me to google something. I want to know what you consider these periods to be and what your sources are. I also don't define a period as a decade or two.

In addition, I am well aware that the Russians have been given short shrift by many for the credit due for defeating the Nazis. However, your statement is just as overblown as the ones on the allied side.

My Daddy fought in WWII. I have spent a lot of time reading about that period. I have tried to read books by historians that are balanced. I am not just repeating some well worn ideas.

I have not called you comrade or any other name. I have asked a straight-forward question.

[frwrfpos]

45. ok..i know i can sometimes come off rather coldly and i apologize if thats the case

I cant tell you that the entirety of Russia being in existence is perfect. No country is and I think that's a rather absurd goal to hold a country to, but I can tell you that many western sources and authors have a rather large bias when they write and publish their material

My grandfather was an army sniper in WW2 and I have a few degrees, including in history, and Im well read. Im not bragging but I do consider myself informed and Im not trying to be "right" or win an argument. Im more interested in being factual about history.

one of biggest peeves is revisionist history, and most western authors of books I have read contain misstatements and unfactual information, in addition to having a large bias.


Nicholas V. Riasanovsky ,John Scott, Stephen Kotkin are but a few of the authors I recommend. They have books on amazon.

www.nlr.ru/eng/ is the website for the national russian library. I have personally been there and many of the books are simply not available in the west. although you can download many from the website. Many others are in hardback and only available for reading there.

[TBF]

41. Welcome frwrfpos,

You are posting in the general forums of a website for democrats. Just a heads up, there are a wide range of dems here (checked out your profile and determined you are a new member) ... and I agree the red-baiting can be nauseating.

We have a small group that is protected where we talk about socialist progressive issues. We haven't discussed Kiev yet, but I for one would love to hear your views. You can find us here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1024

[frwrfpos]

44. thank you

I will check it out

[NM_Birder]

52. Russia could not and did not defeat Germany alone...

I'm sure you have a source that says Russia "largely defeated" the Germans, however picking up one puzzle piece does not finish the puzzle.

Stalin was as brutal, if not more brutal in the treatment of his OWN troops, than Germany was throughout the occupation. Stalin is credited with killing fewer people, but not THAT much less than Hitler. Read more about the Russian army.

It is factual that Russia had the largest single border front. Germany spread out too far, too fast to hold the European offensive, outran ability to supply, and when the Allies pushed back the front and cut supply routes, military suicide in the Russian winter was the last hail mary attempt.

Without the Russian winter, Germany very well could have made it to Moscow, and the war may very well have gone on longer. But that was not the case, an ill equipped German army was doomed the day they headed to Moscow on the leading edge of the Russian winter, Russia sentenced every soldier they could find to a winter death " just in case" Germany was successful.

Russia's brutality to it's own people is not as well know as Germany's, but no less savage.

read some more.

[Alamuti Lotus]

43. key word: "largely" -- and that is quite accurate

the bulk of the Axis armies were concentrated on the Eastern front from about 1941 onwards, for the destruction of the Soviet Union was the key target of the Nazis. I never quite understood the hostility of the Nazi regime to Britain/France, as they were largely agreed on this key point. I suppose it could be explained with the irrational arrogance of Hitler and their equally irrational obsession with destroying the Jewish people, but it would be logical to assume that their strategic interests in eliminating all communist resistance to industrial capitalism would have been a far higher priority--but, key word there is "logical", and it seems that there was very little of that at work.

[Art_from_Ark]

47. Of course, the Soviets had signed a non-agreesion pact with Hitler's Germany

and were all-too-happy to take their "share" of Poland and "annex" the Baltic Republics...

[Shankapotomus]

50. First in space

That's not nothing.

[leftynyc]

51. Proud history?

Do tell us all about it. Start with the pogroms.

[Enthusiast]

53. LOL!

[pampango]

49. Thanks for your efforts on this thread, Are_grits_groceries.

It is not hard to imagine why Ukrainians would rather affiliate with the EU than Russia. The latter has a homophobic government and an economy with a terribly unequal distribution of income (as well as a much lower lever of income). The EU is a progressive entity with higher and more fairly distributed incomes along with a safety net and social policies that reflect a liberal mindset.

[pampango]

20. Right. And all our Occupy protesters are communists and left-wing revolutionaries.

Nothing like casting your opposition in the worst light possible. It makes violent repression so much easier.

For many it is not hard to imagine why people would rather align with the EU than Putin's Russia.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

37. Well, that's quite an informed strawmanny position you have there.

So the thousands upon thousands of people in Kiev right now are all neo-nazis and right wing extremists, who are only doing what they are doing because they all hate "leftist stuff".

I will say that there is a long-standing mistrust of Russia by many Ukrainians, based on a long history of perceived subjugation of Ukrainians by Russians in various forms, whether it be the Soviet Union or the old Russian Empire. That the current Ukrainian president is developing such close ties to Russia has clearly stoked the fire of this rivalry. But it has nothing to do with "bad leftist stuff" as you so claim.

[frwrfpos]

38. can you provide links as to the claim of

Thousands upon thousands of protesters?

In addition, the former soviet bloc states,including ukraine,have much more political similarity than difference. The west is responsible for stoking tensions and divisiveness and has active agents there right now creating divisions.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

17. Why am I not seeing this on my TV thingy? That's Kiev...in Ukraine. I mean, they're

profusely covering the lead-up to the Sochi Olympics about 600 miles away. Is it too much to ask to send a couple of people to Kiev to report on this major event?

[cinnabonbon]

21. It is a good fight they're fighting

I just pray they have enough strength. I really hope as many as possible won't be hurt by this.

I really wish the police would realize what madness they're taking part in and join the protesters instead.

[pampango]

22. Reports are that the death toll among protesters is now 5.

Five dead as Ukraine police launch assault on protesters

Ukrainian police on Wednesday stormed protesters' barricades in Kiev amid violent clashes that left five activists dead, the first fatalities in two months of anti-government protests. The opposition movement's medical service said that five of its activists had been killed and four of them reported found with gunshot wounds. Prosecutors have so far confirmed two deaths.

Using tear gas and stun grenades, police initially pushed demonstrators back well beyond their initial lines by marching forward in military formation. But the protesters then regrouped, creating a semi-circle of new barricades out of burning black tires whose rancid smoke filled the skies above Kiev and flames burned in near-apocalyptic scenes.

Police for the first time started moving an armoured personnel carrier towards the protesters after storming the barricades. The security forces then used water cannon in a bid to douse the fires, but this only had the effect of causing even more smoke.

Meanwhile tens of thousands thousands Wednesday evening filled Independence Square in Kiev which was the main protest hub for the last two months, hoping their sheer numbers would deter further action.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/world/390889/five-ukrainian-activists-killed-in-kiev-clashes

[Union Scribe]

31. Is that a rocket in the fifth photo?

What a mess.

[Are_grits_groceries]

35. Yes.

It looks like something my cousins and I made with our Christmas fireworks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Not addressing the issues, just the photos

WOW. And I thought guys with Guy Fawkes masks were cool as photographic subjects.

That looks like an amazing place to get incredible shots.

As to the issues at hand. I suspect there will be more than just five people killed. God, that looks bad

[marions ghost]

42. looks very serious

[Wilms]

54. ^