Why Do Some Americans Speak So Confidently When They Have No Clue What They're Talking About?

[xchrom]

http://www.alternet.org/corporate-accountability-and-workplace/leadership-training-or-bullshit-training-harvard-price-pseudo



The Harvard Business School information session on how to be a good class participant instructs, “Speak with conviction. Even if you believe something only 55 percent, say it as if you believe it 100 percent,” Susan Cain reported in her bestselling book Quiet. At HBS, Cain noticed, “If a student talks often and forcefully, then he’s a player; if he doesn’t, he’s on the margins.”

Cain observed that the men at HBS “look like people who expect to be in charge.... I have the feeling that if you asked one of them for driving directions, he’d greet you with a can-do smile and throw himself into the task of helping you to your destination — whether or not he knew the way.”

HBS alumni include George W. Bush, class of 1975, as well as:

Jamie Dimon, 1982, CEO and chairman of JP Morgan Chase

Grover Norquist, 1981, president of Americans for Tax Reform

Henry Paulson, 1970, former U.S. Secretary of the Treasury, former CEO of Goldman Sachs

Mitt Romney, 1975, former governor of Massachusetts, co-founder of Bain Capital

Jeffrey Skilling, 1979, former CEO of Enron, convicted of securities fraud and insider trading

People with great power over our lives, in government, business, medicine, and elsewhere, who don’t know what they are talking about are scary. Even more scary are people in authority who don’t know what they’re talking about but who have spent a lifetime perfecting how to appear like they do. Complete conviction and total certainty are sources of great power, especially over vulnerable and uncertain people. And so the pretense of conviction and certainty can be quite damaging.

[Blue_Adept]

1. Well...

[xchrom]

2. well played

[Blue_Adept]

4. It's a mindset

Far too many have in general. I won't classify it as generational, but I definitely see it with my parents baby boomer generation in that they simply cannot think that anything they know is wrong or that their way is wrong. And that goes from their views about anything and everything.

[Demeter]

8. You are describing my father

Who predated the Baby Boomers by a generation...

Frankly, I think it's part of that White Guy Unearned Privilege thing. When deference to the Entitled by Birth White Guy ends, so will this.

[Blue_Adept]

17. Definitely

There's a lot of that in there. My father just turned 70 but my whole life it's been a thing of he is right and anything he has no interest in isn't worth talking about in the slightest. Very, very narrow view of the world with a solution being to just shoot someone/everyone.

[spooky3]

26. Just a minor point

If your dad is 70, he was born in 1944 and is not a postwar baby boomer, but rather, the generation before.

I don't think his views necessarily are the result of being in a particular generation, though. There are people of all generations on this board, for example, and they seem pretty capable of thinking.

[jtuck004]

10. You are describing Marissa Mayer at Yahoo, from what I can tell, what I've read.

She's younger than that age range, around 29, I think. Doesn't seem to be setting Yahoo stock on fire, but perhaps there's time.

I'm not sure I would see it as generational, except that EVERY generation has said that about their parents. And still do.

[Blue_Adept]

18. She's 38

Not that it makes a huge difference. But worth noting.

[spooky3]

27. Yes, and the Harvard students described in the

Article are in yet another generation. Seems unrelated to age.

[WinkyDink]

39. Can the "Baby Boomers are crap" crap.

[Le Taz Hot]

41. Nice broad brush there.

There you have it, boys and girls. All 79 million boomers act and think and talk EXACTLY alike! I'm sorry, you were saying something about "baby boomer generation in that they simply cannot think that anything they know is wrong or that their way is wrong."

Hoist. Petard.

[SammyWinstonJack]

53. Wow. Boomer bashing. How original.

[gollygee]

60. The person I know IRL most like this

is GenX. Drives me CRAZY.

I think parents in general tend to speak like they're authorities to their kids, even when their kids are grown. My parents do to me and I'm in my 40s now, and I imagine I do to my kids, though they're still kids. But this guy my same general age is the most stupid person in the world and at the same time the most arrogantly sure of what he says.

I bet everyone reading this thread thought about some specific person. LOL.

[another_liberal]

14. Better give that bird a fish . . .

He looks pissed!

[SharonAnn]

62. Dunning-Kruger effect

from Wikipedia"
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than is accurate. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their ineptitude.[1] Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding.

[truebluegreen]

3. Lying with authority can be a winning move in Scrabble

and in the real world. Consequences aren't the same though.

[chervilant]

5. This...

with a heaping dollop of Bernays sauce.

I encourage everyone to watch "The Century of the Self."

(And, while you're at it, consider watching "The Wall Street Code.)

[LuvNewcastle]

6. What gets me are all the people who watch RW media who think they're informed

and repeat all that bullshit with great authority. My brother is one. For the sake of family peace, I don't tell him that he knows absolutely nothing about the subjects he thinks he's so confident giving his opinion about, and it kills me to keep silent about it. I hate the idea that my silence amounts to agreement in his eyes, but what can I do? As long as my mother's alive, and I hope she out-lives me, I can't explode on him. I usually take it out on other people who remind me of him, and that's not good.

[Dustlawyer]

34. Then you must challenge him, in the sense that he watch and read a more well rounded

group of news sources for a month. Have him compare it to Fox News and also explain that Fox News was designed to make him angry, to make him feel he is being wronged, ripped off, abused. It is psychological warfare. Tell him he must keep an open mind and you will do the same thing. During that month call each other regularly to discuss, but remind him the challenge is also to stay civil. Tell him you love him and you want your relationship back, to do it for you.
If we don't at least try we won't ever know.
Good luck!

[Liberalynn]

40. I have kind of a similar situation.

My sister is a Democrat but many members of our extended family are Pukers. There are times I really want to blast them for their ignorance, bigotry etc because I fear my silence will not only be taken as acceptance but in a sense is a betrayal of my beliefs. I have started to say more. I wrote a man from my Writer's Group who sends me Tea Party crap and said while I enjoyed his stories and his poetry and the funny cat and dog pics, to please put in the subject line "political commentary" whenever he sent out one of his "mass mailings" to those of us in his email address book" That way I can definitely delete them without reading them, I am not censoring him and unless he is totally unable to read between the lines which he isn't he knows I don't like that crap. As for my family I have to tread carefully because while my sis claims I'm the only overly sensitive person who would be hurt if I started a family feud with my cousins from my Mom's side she would be too. There are only a handful out of the group I truly would be upset about if I never saw or spoke to again but I love and depend on my sister so I won't humiliate her by blowing up at them.

Sometimes though I really just want to give them this speech. "Get your Damn heads out of your asses try watching some actual news instead of Faux Noise, Most of you are lazier than the people you complain about.

I have degrees in History, Social Science, and Paralegal. I am a member of the International Social Science Honor Society. I have studied the Constitution backwards and forwards. I can site case law in my sleep. I have read The Federalist Papers more than once. Most of you probably don't even know what those are. So excuse me if I think I know more about how the Government should function than you. The fact is I do.I know truth hurts. So do what you do best which is sit there scratching your asses blaming everyone else for your shortcomings and shut the hell up about things you know nothing about and leave the voting to those of us who actually have a clue about what is best for the country.WHY YES I AM A LIBERAL ELITIST I HAVE A BRAIN AND UNLIKE YOU Am NOT ASHAMED to USE IT."

That is what I really want to say to every Puke I know but am to chicken to.

[hfojvt]

47. I get the same thing - in another direction

Seeing as how Alternet had an article that "spoke so confidently" and said "the real poverty rate is 50% and approaching 75%" http://www.alternet.org/economy/real-numbers-half-america-poverty-and-its-creeping-toward-75-0

and he didn't really know what he was talking about. But people here rushed to applaud his original article, an article that had to be "updated and corrected"

"Note: This is an updated, corrected version of the original article, approved by the author. "

It's fairly easy to get misinformed, and then to be confident about "what you know".

[Arkansas Granny]

7. If you can't dazzle them with brilliance,

Last edited Wed Jan 22, 2014, 09:31 AM - Edit history (1)

baffle them with bullshit. It has worked for them for years.

[RobertEarl]

9. That's America for ya

Love it or leave it. Or take charge. Sitting around complaining never got anything done.

[B Calm]

11. Sorta like Chris Mathews when the subject is marijuana.

[Le Taz Hot]

42. Is this the same Chris Matthews

who predicted that Michelle Bachmann was going to be the Republican nominee in 2012? That one?

[reddread]

12. Deceit and Self-Deception

Harvard Business School has nothing to do with the root of the issue.
If they are selling the strategy its not because they are stupid. Just immoral.
The only death penalty that should be in effect in our country is for lying politicians
and public officials.

[ananda]

13. This is true for all rightwing crazies ...

... not just the corporate elites.

Some of the worst are warming/climate disruption deniers.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

29. Signs of the times

[Ian_rd]

15. Stephen Colbert's "Truthiness" mates well with this.

Colbert summed up a major cancer on the American public discourse when he came up with "truthiness" to define the sense that what feels true is more important than what can be factually shown.

Marco Rubio recently had this on display (in his latest attempt at starting a presidential run) when he lamented the state if the economy and the middle class and said that generations of liberal government policies have therefore proven themselves unworkable. This certainly "feels true" to millions of Americans, even while demonstrable facts can show that for the last 30 years, America has undergone changes pushing our economic policy increasingly to the right.

But that doesn't matter to Rubio. Because it "feels" true.

[AngryAmish]

16. People cannot be convinced to change their minds

There is a host of research on this. People also crave authority. So speaking authoritatively while reflecting peoples prejudices back at them = persuasion.

This has made billions for fox and msnbc.

[Enthusiast]

19. K&R! These are the MFers that have destroyed the nation.

Some of the MFers that destroyed the nation. There is a long list.

[Scuba]

20. Why is it that fools are so sure of themselves while wiser men are filled with doubt?

Or as my grandmother used to say, "A wise man will change his mind; a fool never will."

[kairos12]

31. Reminds of the words I heard somewhere

that said always spend time with people seeking the truth, but avoid those who claimed to have found it.

[cali]

21. this makes me laugh. My dad had an obsessive dislike/distrust of anyone out of Harvard or Yale B

Schools. He would not hire them. He had his own list of B school rogues. He could go on and on and on about it. He took a savage enjoyment out of conducting hellish interviews with some of their graduates.

(my dad was an inventor/manufacturer whose background was anthropology and history)

[DeSwiss]

22. Because they went to Harvard Business School?

Seems a reasonable assumption after you think about it for a minute. Especially after you realize that pretty much all the people who've screwed things up royally in business, finance and government all went there.

And Harvard Law.

K&R

[Squinch]

23. Alpha male syndrome. Infiltrated the water in Harvard Business School long ago.

[TBF]

24. What they are really teaching them is to be good at sales -

whether you are selling product or yourself. I worked in law firms for many years and saw this with litigators especially. They are hired to fight (sell) your case, no matter how crappy it is (yes, I worked for defense firms obviously).

Even in the tech world, where introverts like myself tend to huddle, being able to draw on those skills when necessary is lucrative. That is what Sheryl Sandberg's book "Lean In" was about as well - using conversation to sell your points (also a Harvard grad if I'm not mistaken).

[hunter]

52. It's exactly this. We live in a culture where most everything is for sale.

A sales person doesn't point out the either the defects or the alternatives to the thing he's selling, even if that thing he is selling is himself or utter lies.

[Berlin Expat]

25. It's the Dunning Kruger Effect, in which

incompetent people fail to recognize their own ineptitude; they overestimate their abilities or knowledge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

It's illusory superiority.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

28. Respect Authoritah! No excetions! Listen to da Maya!

[deutsey]

30. Disease of Conceit

by Bob Dylan

There's a whole lot of people suffering tonight from the disease of conceit
Whole lot of people struggling tonight from the disease of conceit
Comes right down the highway straight down the line
Rips into your senses through your body and your mind
Nothing about it that's sweet
The disease of conceit.

There's a whole lot of hearts breaking tonight from the disease of conceit
Whole lot of hearts shaking tonight from the disease of conceit
Steps into your room eats into your soul
Over your senses you have no control
Ain't nothing too discreet about the disease of conceit.

There's a whole lot of people dying tonight from the disease of conceit
Whole lot of people crying tonight from the disease of conceit
Comes right out of nowhere and you're down for the count
From the outside world the pressure will mount
Turn you into a piece of meat
The disease of conceit.

Conceit is the disease that the doctors got no cure
They've done a lot of research on it but what it is they're still not sure

There's a whole lot of people in trouble tonight from the disease of conceit
Whole lot of people seeing double tonight from the disease of conceit
Give you delusions of grandeur and evil eye
Give you the idea that you're too good to die
Then they bury you from your head to your feet
From the disease of conceit.

[Douglas Carpenter]

32. I have noticed that from Malcolm X to Margaret Thatcher - speakers who speak with absolute moral

certainty and give no sense of nuance or doubt have tremendous power to convince and even have a kind of mysterious and spelling bounding eloquence

[CFLDem]

33. It's a good survival strategy.

It is always much better to act with confidence than not, even if if you are wrong because attitude leaves a larger mental impression than what was actually done.

Or more succinctly: It's much better to be caught with a big dick in your hands than a small one.😁

[Hotler]

35. HBS alumni........

everyone of those listed are corrupt and have done nothing but fuck this country up or screw people over.

[Hotler]

36. There is a saying once.....

Silence is the only true substitute for brains.

[bullwinkle428]

37. Brings to mind the old expression - "When you can't dazzle them with

your brilliance, just baffle them with your bullshit!"

[siligut]

38. "Be wrong but be strong"

That is the philosophy of a very successful business man I know. He also goes by, "don't complain and don't explain". But he is quite intelligent and charming and actually a liberal, it is just a business philosophy that projects confidence and instills trust.

Then there is: [URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[Sweet Freedom]

43. Because they have overblown egos

They are egotistical bullies who believe they are entitled to whatever they *think* they deserve. Whenever I hear that ridiculous bravado, I know I am most likely dealing with an insecure coward.

[Demo_Chris]

44. For irony, reread this thread and count how many here KNOW the answer....

It's not a Harvard thing, a GOP thing, of even a business thing. It's the nature of our language -- continuously spewing variations of "in my opinion" every other sentence gets annoying as hell (on another forum I frequent posters are REQUUIRED to do this for legal reasons and holy fuck is it irritating). The better question, in my opinion, is not why speakers leave this out, but why people in our culture rank credibility based on class and proximity to the Ivy league. I believe that there are some very good reasons why, but it's worth taking the time to consider...

In my opinion of course.

[Orsino]

45. Everyone wants to matter.

Corporate media lies that tell us we *don't* matter still allow the weak-minded to feel informed, and the most insecure among them find comfort in repeating the lies authoritatively.

[sibelian]

46. Monologue trumps dialogue

in heroic societies.

[bemildred]

48. Ah yes, The Power of Positive Thinking

http://www.amazon.com/Positive-Thinking-Reverend-Norman-Vincent/dp/8087888235

Ubiquitous in my youth, but you can find it in B. Franklin's Autobiography too.

[kiranon]

49. Majority of people do not tolerate ambiguity well.

Certainty is more comfortable for them. They no longer need to think or reconsider the issue. Facts just get in the way. Politicians and business people know this and say most everything with certainty. Besides, it probably matches their own needs, beliefs and inability to tolerate ambiguity. This accounts for politicians saying one thing on Monday and another on Friday without any personal problem with the change. So long as each statement is unambiguous, they are comfortable with it. To them, it's the media's problem for not getting with their program/policies. They probably think more highly of themselves for being able to change even if the change is from one wrong idea to another. In their minds, they are always right.

[El_Johns]

50. When I was a boss one of the things I found was a lot of workers would rather be led by

someone who appeared confident and told them what to do rather than someone who solicited their opinions about policies.

[Coyotl]

51. You don't need an education to enjoy listening to yourself.

In fact, once you have a great education, listening to yourself might seem boring.

[RKP5637]

54. Many times in my corporate life I was astounded when attending some inner-circle

meetings to discover the seemingly high-powered all-knowing executives had no F'en idea what they were doing. It was all a show for the corporate peons and investors.

[Democrats_win]

55. Famous story: cow versus bull in college (and life)

The essay Examanship and the Liberal arts by William Perry,
link: http://www.longwood.edu/staff/isaacsw/Examship.pdf ,
humorously tells the famous story of how a student ended up taking the final exam without actually taking the course. The first part of the exam asked the student to write about the meaning of some idea in the reading the students were assigned--which this student, our "hero," didn't do!

Yet the student used his own intuition to write an essay better than the students who did take the course. The second part of the test involved factual aspects of the reading and of course, our "hero" failed. After all, he hadn't even taken the course!

There are two types of people in college (politics)

cow (pure): data, however relevant, without relevancies.
bull (pure): relevancies, however relevant, without data

The student was given a high grade for his essay.

Perhaps this value accounts for the final anomaly: as instructors, we are inclined to reward bull
highly, where we do not detect its intent, to the consternation of the bullster's acquaintances. And
often we do not examine the matter too closely. After a long evening of reading blue books full
of cow, the sudden meeting with a student who at least understands the problems of one's field
provides a lift like a drought of refreshing wine, and a strong disposition toward trust.

Is anyone surprised that the media and the public does the same?

[aikoaiko]

56. American? Have you heard the French?

Mon dieu.

[lumberjack_jeff]

57. "The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt"

Bertrand Russel

[DonCoquixote]

59. I see your quote and raise you :)

"the best lack all conviction,
but the worst, are full of passionate intensity"
William Butler Yeats "The second coming."

[dickthegrouch]

58. If I were the academic dean at HBS

I'd read this thread and fire all my Ethics lecturers because they are clearly useless.
I'd like to see a 95% threshold requirement to pass the ethics course from all business administration students, or else: no degree.

My first Physics test in college we either got 100% or 0%. The lecturer's justification was "You're engineers now. Your errors could kill". It was a valuable lesson.

[BrotherIvan]

61. I like your professor's lesson

But how do you teach someone ethics? Our society richly rewards criminals and liars. There's no incentive to do the right thing. If you are a morally-inclined person, chances are you're not at Harvard Business School so you can cash out for the big bucks.

[Prophet 451]

63. I noticed this when discussing healthcare on HuffPo

I'm British, so I have the NHS and the amount of times I heard Americans (although it might just be conservatives) insist that the NHS was X (broke, rationing, not very good, take your pick) despite me dealing with it every damn week and knowing full well it was none of those things.

[uriel1972]

64. Ignorant in their arrogance, Arrogant in their ignorance...nt