Ukranian police going all out against protesters now:

[joshcryer]

DUers are claiming these protesters are neo-Nazis but the right wingers wear yellow and blue. The communists / anarchists wear red and black.

I don't see many yellow coats at all.

[dipsydoodle]

1. Ukraine police storm Kiev protest barricades

Clashes have broken out in Ukraine's capital, Kiev, as police stormed barricades in a protest area.

At least one person has been shot dead, says a BBC correspondent in the city.

>

Prime Minister Mykola Azarov had warned that police would use force if the unrest seen on the fringes of the protest in recent days continued.

The violence has been restricted to a small area around Hrushevskyy Street, close to the main protest encampment at Maidan (or Independence Square), with most of the rest of the city functioning normally, say correspondents.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25838962

Ukrainian Opposition Claims First Deaths Among Protesters

MOSCOW, January 22 (RIA Novosti) – The anti-government protest movement in Ukraine said Wednesday that two people have died following clashes with police in a development that could fuel more popular anger and political tensions.

Segodnya.ua news website cited staff with the Euromaidan protest movement as saying a 22-year-old activist died after plummeting down the 13-meter-high colonnade of a Kiev stadium.

The victim, whose name was withheld, was pelting Berkut riot police with fireworks and Molotov cocktails at the time, the report said.

Segodnya.ua reported that the man fell after Berkut officers climbed up the colonnade to chase him and fellow demonstrators away.

Another man was shot dead Wednesday on Ulitsa Grushevskogo, a street near the Cabinet office and parliament on which clashes have taken place in recent days, Espreso.tv reported, also citing Euromaidan activists.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140122/186797588/Ukrainian-Opposition-Claims-First-Deaths-Among-Protesters.html

[joshcryer]

2. You'll note who's at the front of the lines.

The libertarian socialists. Cowardly fascists will let them take the brunt of it when it comes to it. And it will if not today soon.

[joshcryer]

3. And so it begins.

[joshcryer]

4. Roman style WALL of police:

Yes, there are police under that. They gained about 100 feet on the protesters. Should be over today.

[joshcryer]

6. They made it through:

[joshcryer]

7. They made it 100 more feet then turned into literal storm troopers:

[joshcryer]

8. We have ourselves a casulty.

[joshcryer]

5. "Dear subscriber, you are registered as a participant in a mass disturbance."

Maybe the Most Orwellian Text Message a Government's Ever Sent
“Dear subscriber, you are registered as a participant in a mass disturbance.”

That's a text message that thousands of Ukrainian protesters spontaneously received on their cell phones today, as a new law prohibiting public demonstrations went into effect. It was the regime's police force, sending protesters the perfectly dystopian text message to accompany the newly minted, perfectly dystopian legislation. In fact, it's downright Orwellian (and I hate that adjective, and only use it when absolutely necessary, I swear).

But that's what this is: it's technology employed to detect noncompliance, to hone in on dissent. The NY Times reports that the "Ukrainian government used telephone technology to pinpoint the locations of cell phones in use near clashes between riot police officers and protesters early on Tuesday." Near. Using a cell phone near a clash lands you on the regime's hit list.

See, Kiev is tearing itself to shreds right now, but since we're kind of burned out on protests, riots, and revolutions at the moment, it's being treated below-the-fold news. Somehow, the fact that over a million people are marching, camping out, and battling with Ukraine's increasingly authoritarian government is barely making a ripple behind such blockbuster news bits as bridge closures and polar vortexes. Yes, even though protesters are literally building catapaults and wearing medieval armor and manning flaming dump trucks.

[MadrasT]

14. That is disturbing. Do not like. n/t

[joshcryer]

17. And to think the NSA probably could set that up in a heartbeat.

If it's accepted in Ukraine, every state gets to get away with it.

[jtuck004]

26. From the story...

"Yes, even though protesters are literally building catapaults and wearing medieval armor and manning flaming dump trucks."

Ok, so they don't really take you seriously until you interrupt big commerce, like a city or a big corporation. Real commerce, not the doughnut and tire shops. That will get you noticed, but you may lose the support of people who are probably on your side, since they probably can't afford an unannounced day or ? off.

On the other hand, if the government goes with the EU, this mostly all goes away, yes?

This city is about 2 hrs from Chernobyl. (Some people have Disneyworld to take visitors to). I would go there in a New York minute, given the chance, however. I would just wander around and look at buildings for a while, especially at night.

Maybe we could put up a poll here, have people guess at the date we will get our first similar notice from cell-phone traffic in this country? Or have they already done that? They've got all they need with the metadata they get now, so it's just a choice to pretend they don't have it or try and intimidate people by telling them they do.

(Gotta be tough to be the Stasi some days...decisions, decisions. And I say that because it seems like much of this is being directed against dissenters - who need to find better tactics. But it is antithetical to a free people to be surveilled like this.)

They don't have to go after the person, of course, just poll the towers, probably get it at a console. All the phones that are hooking up - they could just follow the crowd...

[joshcryer]

30. They passed the anti-protesting law for a reason.

The fucked up part is that it would have never escalated to this level if you weren't going to get a mandatory 15 year sentence for protesting.

I doubt it goes away if the government goes with the EU. Russia has its own influence. I think this is a no-win situation, geopolitically. The trilateral talks need to happen, but the EU is influenced by the US and the US doesn't want that. Basically, Ukraine let's Russia ship its gas through the country. Russia lets Ukraine have geopolitical influence and economic trade benefits. But the US couldn't allow for both sides to win this one.

This will be over in a day or two and no one will remember.

And yeah, figuring out which phones are connected to which cell phone towers in an area is really easy to do. Turn off, temporarily, every tower outside of an X mile radius of the protest zone. Everyone in the zone gets a message (doesn't matter if you're just a resident going home to sleep or what).

[jtuck004]

33. I was reading another site

"Russian President Vladimir Putin agreed to slash the cost of gas sold to Ukraine and promised to buy billions of government bonds."

And he has already signed, so yeah, this is over. That's a big payoff for the folks at the top. I think associating with the EU would have been better for the country, be we live in the day when the Oligarchy wants and the Oligarchy gets. I think what we are watching being done to them is the same thing being done to us.

I think we have a lot in common with those people, perhaps

[joshcryer]

35. I think so too, as Russia is a corrupt oligarch nightmare.

Run by the mafia and corrupt oligarchs out to cheat you in any way.

I think the EU would have at least been fair, and Russia would've still had to ship gas through Ukraine.

The "cheap gas" bribery was enough for the Ukrainian President to go with the Russian deal though. It didn't set well with those anti-Russian folks in Ukraine, particularly those who had memories of or were affected by the genocide.

[ChangeUp106]

9. Can someone explain what's going on?

And why does DU not support the protestors?

[joshcryer]

10. Some DUers think they're Nazi's.

But they're just pissed off that the Russians corrupted their politics and got the President to renig on a trade and political deal that they had been planning with EU for a long time.

[ChangeUp106]

11. Thanks

I heard there was an anti-protest law passed as well.

[joshcryer]

15. There are right wingers there stirring shit...

...but I don't think they make up the lions share of the protesters. It's mostly youth who tend to trend ideologically left, especially educate youth.

2 dead so far.

People are just pissed that the protesters are anti-Russia more than anything else.

[dipsydoodle]

44. The long term cost of an EU deal with the Ukraine is reckoned to be c. €220 billion.

The EU offered €1 billion and the IMF refused to provide funds unless the Ukraine substantially increased to the consumer price of gas, which is currently being sold at below cost, to help demonstrate an ability to repay. Cost to consumers may differ now because Russia reduced to the price of gas below the figure which Yulia Tymoshenko had agreed back in 2009.

The opposition have yet to provide any alternative which would make economic sense and neither come to that has anyone else.

There was some mention of Nazis / ultra RWers : one of the Klitschko brothers simply described whoever as being provocateurs , without defining any group , whilst attempting to keep the main body of protestors peaceful.

[joshcryer]

46. Putin extorted Ukraine with lower gas prices to preserve gas pipeline deals.

Your spin is interesting given that 58% of Ukrainians supported the EU deal.

The reduced price Ukraine pays to Gazprom is still so out of kilter that it is about $30 cheaper to buy gas the EU has imported and transport it back across the border. This re-importing had started to happen on a very small scale from Poland and Hungary. And on Dec. 9, Slovakia's gas transit company Eustream agreed on terms to reverse the flow in one of its big transit pipes.

With the necessary Slovak capacity, Ukraine might have been able to fulfill the deal it has to buy 10 bcm of gas annually from Germany's RWE AG. That would represent about a third of Ukraine's current imports from Russia, which had already fallen substantially because of Ukraine's declining gas consumption, due to a collapsing economy, coal substitution and efficiency improvements, according to Pirani.

Faced by competition from EU re-suppliers, Gazprom would in any case have had to choose: risk losing as much as another one third of its gas sales to Ukraine and associated political leverage, or else reduce its price by a third to make EU re-imports uncompetitive.

In sum, it's clear that the $268.50 discount offered to Yanukovych wasn't as generous as it sounds. Putin in essence agreed to stop extorting money from Ukraine and charge the market price.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-30/putin-s-deal-is-no-gift-to-gas-junkie-ukraine.html

The $15 billion just funds Yanukovych's 2015 election campaign. It's bribery and extortion of the highest degree.

[dipsydoodle]

47. I didn't spin anything

and the reverse feeds from the EU had already been scrubbed including the proposed one from Slovakia.

The Ukraine gets an offset against their aggreagte gas bill anyway - transit fees for gas to Europe. Those transit fees won't last forever - soon as Nord and Sud pipelines come on stream the the Ukraine will be bypassed. A bribe it may be but the now current price they pay for gas is highly advantageous and may even provide latitude for an IMF loan.

The $15 billion loan from Russia was partly need to satisfy a bond settlement later this year in the absense of which they were screwn anyway. If they'd borrowed elsewhere it would've been at onerous rates given the IMF wouldn't play ball.

Support from their population to form a trade agreement with the EU instead of Russia may be partly due to the halo effect of the accompanying Schengen visas they've been offered. They may not appreciate that those visas are only 90 days max anywhere within the Schengen area - not 90 days in one country and the move on to another Those visas are conditional on return to country of origin after 90 days - equivalent of leave the US after 90 days on the visa waiver program.

The EU's main interest is the Ukraine's underutilized high quality farm land : other than that there is nothing particularly magnanimous about the EU offer.

As I'd mentioned earlier - if the Ukraine opposition has got an economic alternative then what is it ?

[Scootaloo]

40. Because that's how DU works

You'll notice that the main vibe of DU with regards to protest, is about the same you find on 4chan - "Tits or GTFO."

[MadrasT]

12. K&R thanks for the link.

It looks bad over there.

[ChangeUp106]

13. Police are charging

Something just went down. Protestor got destroyed by cops.

[MadrasT]

16. People are retreating and something is burning?

What is that?

[joshcryer]

18. Pile of tires the protesters set up.

[MadrasT]

19. Thx. This is surreal.

[joshcryer]

20. Hope the wind shifts, this is obscuring the view.

I saw police piling tires up, actually, I hope it wasn't a concerted decision to black out the camera.

edit: good they're moving the pile! Social media works!

[ChangeUp106]

21. That's a lot of cops

I think they're getting ready to charge again

[joshcryer]

22. They seem to be doing a charge retreat tactic.

The protesters would be wise to set up camp elsewhere, trying to take back the square is a mind trip, but it's lost. Every time the police charge a half dozen or more protesters get arrested.

[joshcryer]

23. That sound you hear are police banging their shields. If they show it, it's terrifying.

[ChangeUp106]

24. From Reddit

Speaker was saying, more or less, "everyone return to indepndence square we need to barricade it, and save it."

Good running thread on Reddit here.

[joshcryer]

25. I wish the US wouldn't meddle, it'll only strengthen the totalitarians.

Dammit. The movement is self-determined now. There are no leaders. It will not end well.

[joshcryer]

27. RT feed (warning, the commenters are racist homophobes, don't watch on YouTube):

RT's typical audience. Anti-semetic, racist, homophobe, xenophobic, bigots.

[ChangeUp106]

28. And conspiracy nuts

[ChangeUp106]

29. Protestors got a mass text message

“Dear subscriber, you are registered as a participant in a mass disturbance.” a text message that thousands of Ukrainian protesters spontaneously received on their cell phones today, as a new law prohibiting public demonstrations went into effect."

http://motherboard.vice.com/en_ca/blog/maybe-the-most-orwellian-text-message-ever-sent

[joshcryer]

32. Yeah, I posted that in post #5.

[ChangeUp106]

31. You know what's about to hit the fan

Police are going in. Protestors lined up to meet them.

[joshcryer]

34. Now we got a tank:

[ChangeUp106]

36. Tank retreated

Now it's rolling back to the frontline...

Have to think that thin line of tire fires is the only thing saving the protestors right now

[joshcryer]

37. I hope that 'gun' on top is merely a firehose.

[joshcryer]

38. More streams:

http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1vq9vh/ukraines_capital_is_literally_revolting_livestream/ceuxj2n

[joshcryer]

39. This stream shows how big the protests REALLY are (200k+):

The other videos are focusing on the protesters, this one is showing the entire movement, it is not a joke, there are thousands and thousands of people protesting.

[ChangeUp106]

41. The police/army appear to be falling back

[joshcryer]

42. Rubber tire fires will do that...

[joshcryer]

43. Stream of young woman on the ground, walking around:

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/spilno-tv

Beware, it goes in and out often, but it shows that this is hardly some small protest, looked like all of Kiev is in revolt.

[ChangeUp106]

45. Police are trying to put out the fire

If they can it's not good for the protestors