Here's the map forced-birth American Taliban don't want you to see...

[Triana]

[niyad]

1. we're number one!!

[Auntie Bush]

6. The best health care system in the world!

[Soylent Brice]

78. ...

[Rex]

2. Money is the most important thing in America.

More so then life and death. We let the 1980s crowd place money above all other things and it is still there high upon a pedestal.

[Comrade Grumpy]

3. It's not just us! We're in good company.

Liberia, Surinam, Papua New Guineau--all these cutting edge nations share our maternal leave policies.

[TheBlackAdder]

4. Hey, If it's good enough for Tonga... nt

[tblue]

5. FREEDOM! FREEDOM! USA USA USA!!!

We are doing it wrong.

[CFLDem]

7. What a shame.

[Deep13]

8. Hey, if you want to live somewhere that values women and motherhood...

...move to Iran!

Wait, what?

[Fla Dem]

9. So much for caring for the unborn. A mother on paid ML is one with less stress

and can take care of herself and the unborn child. What hypocrites all those RW conservatives.

[Thav]

102. They only care about the unborn.

Once the child is born, it's a taker, just like the mother.

[Dirty Socialist]

10. Butbutbut

Paid maternal leave would cause companies to leave! Why do you want to lose American jobs and punish businesses?/snark

[SheilaT]

11. Most Americans have no clue that

this is one of the very few countries with no paid maternal leave. Worse yet, there's a weird sort of competition among new mothers or mothers-to-be about how close to their delivery date they work and how quickly after giving birth they return to the job. The idea of spending any meaningful time whatsoever with the new baby just isn't on too many women's radar. Of course, the very fact that we have no legally mandated paid maternity leave is what's at fault.

Also, if anything it's gotten worse over the years. Back in the 1960's, when I worked for the telephone company as an operator, they had a policy allowing a woman up to a full year of (unpaid) maternity leave. Lots of those women took it, most typically leaving work at about six months into the pregnancy, and returning when the baby was nine months old. Yes, it was unpaid, but it was there with the guarantee of your job back when you returned.

[llmart]

25. Hmmmm......I don't remember it that way in my case

I remember very few protections for women in the '60's and '70's, but I think it depended on what kind of company you worked for.

However, I do agree with your comment on how women now brag about how they worked up until the night before the delivery, blah, blah, blah - oh, and also how they only put on one pound in nine months AND continued to run marathons

Hell, I worked for one woman who suspiciously gave birth on her exact due date then I read about women who schedule their deliveries even if a C-section isn't required.

[SheilaT]

71. It was the telephone company, Ma Bell.

We were also union, surprise surprise. It was actually pretty good to work for them, because the operator position, at least in Tucson where I worked, had quite a choice of shifts, and the turnover was sufficient that it didn't take too long to be able to hold something reasonably desirable.

The phone company had been employing lots of women for a very long time at that point. Too many other industries either did their best not to hire women, or if they hired them not to promote them, or kept women in a female ghetto for a very long time.

[City Lights]

12. We are so awesum!

USA! USA! USA! Bestest country ever!

[FairWinds]

13. There's Your . .

Family Values.

[gtar100]

14. Shameful. I'm using the term "forced birth" to describe anti-abortionists

Because that is exactly what they are doing to women.

[niyad]

83. anti-choice, woman-hating, pro-forced birthers is my short name for them (have a few more, but

do not use it in mixed company)

[Bernardo de La Paz]

15. It's a little bit like this map the Ts don't want you to see:

All the non-metric countries in the world in red:

[airplaneman]

23. And we were the first country to tell the world to go metric. n/t.

[2ndAmForComputers]

33. Wasn't it France? Them having invented the system and all?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

95. Metric: France. Decimalization: Americans.

There were some early American suggestions to decimalize measurement before the American Revolution, but they were not well thought out and nothing came of them. The currency was much easier to decimalize, so that got done.

It did take the French to truly invent and implement metric.

It's a good reason for Obama to push through and finish metrification after the 2014 mid-terms. Leaving aside the bountiful benefits to business and Americans, it would be worth doing it just to see Tea Bags explode at the idea of French measurements taking over.

[father founding]

88. Amazing how all the maps look alike

Look similar to the map that allows people to own Blu Ray recorders.

[adieu]

16. Part of the problem is that

we no longer have jobs that can allow a person to be excused for any significant amount of time.

Heck, it's possible to go on a 26 week maternity leave and come back only to see the company no longer existing.

There's not much a government can do to help in such cases.

For those who hate government, what they don't realize is that the government can set employment standards. If there are plenty of jobs, and the government offers health care, maternity leave and other workplace benefits, the other companies have to comply to compete with such options. Once a few offer them, then others have to go along or look like a Scrooge.

That's why the GOP is hellbent on making the government inconsequential: they want to make government irrelevant so that companies can do whatever they want to their employees.

[Triana]

30. "they want to make government irrelevant so that companies can do whatever they want . . ."

"they want to make government irrelevant so that companies can do whatever they want to their employees"

BINGO!

This is why it's said that "small government" is fascist-speak for "more corporate control"

[JDPriestly]

54. Brilliant.

They want to make government irrelevant so that companies can do whatever they want to their employees.

Remember, our employment, our work culture is patterned after the master/servant relationship of feudalism or if you will, slavery itself. The employee is supposed to be loyal and subservient to the employer, in every way obey the employer, never contribute his own ideas or argue with the employer, get to work on the employer's schedule and never complain. For that the employee gets a wage that in recent years hasn't risen to match gains in skills or the employer's profits, gets to be fired at the employer's will or caprice, has no union to represent him in negotiating working conditions in wages, dares not ask for a raise or promotion (probably not given very often) and gets no paid sick leave, maternity leave, or paid vacation.

What a deal! Of course, back in the days of slavery or feudalism, the master provided the slave or serf miserable housing and maybe food. For many of our minimum-wage workers, that's about all they can afford on their paychecks.

[AlbertCat]

17. Why...

...are all the civilized countries above the friggin' Arctic Circle? I'd move to Denmark if it wasn't so cold.

[George II]

18. "American Taliban"? A bit of an extreme analogy, don't you think?

[JaneyVee]

19. Not at all. It's actually quite accurate.

Last edited Sun Jan 19, 2014, 04:08 PM - Edit history (1)

Both Christian conservatives and Muslim conservatives embrace: banning abortion, gays illegal, oppressing women, massive oil drilling, church and state intertwined, guns everywhere, election fraud, etc.

[alfredo]

26. Their gun fetish is actually their desire to someday use their guns to kill us "unbelievers."

[George II]

27. What do all of those things have to do with lack of paid maternal leave?

[bettyellen]

36. they'd like to force women to have babies, then hobble their careers for doing so.

so men can continue to dominate in society.

[George II]

38. And force them to drink gallons of oil, too? (oil drilling was one of things in your "list")

[bettyellen]

41. not my list. and I think the oil didn't belong on it- but DRINK OIL? WHO SAID THIS?

Oh yeah, no one… you're just making up shit.

[George II]

44. correct....sorry, it was further up the chain.

Here is the "list" I was referring to:

banning abortion
gays illegal
oppressing women
massive oil drilling
church and state intertwined
guns everywhere
election fraud

Other than banning abortion and oppressing women, I don't see that any of those other things have anything to do with unpaid maternity leave.

[bettyellen]

47. It's of a piece, all those things reflect their ultra conservative values and have a very

detrimental effect on society- and they are things the two groups - which purport to be at opposite ends of the spectrum, very much have in common.

[George II]

49. The OP was about paid maternity leave and ONLY paid maternity leave! On that issue.........

.....yet another time, I say that the term "American Taliban" is extreme.

[bettyellen]

51. It's not uncommon for men to be so selfishly unconcerned about reproductive rights.

I hear all the time here from men who say "abortion is settled". They also need to do their homework, or stop pretending to know WTF they are talking about.

[George II]

53. But, yet once again - you're drifting off topic.

What you just said here has nothing to do with the narrow topic of unpaid maternity leave. If the OP intended on having that under discussion (and the "list" I've referred to), they could have very easily been part of the OP or at least mentioned.

In fact, it isn't even implied in the OP. There are thousands and thousands (perhaps millions) of women AND men who welcome having children that are handicapped by the lack of paid maternity leave, regardless of their position on abortion and any of those other issues ("gun running"?????) Paid maternity leave is more than just a women's issue, it is a PARENTs' issue!

I think you're either assuming too much that hasn't been said up top or projecting your feelings about the broad issue of women's rights on this narrow topic. And you also seem to be sneaking in the implication that "men" need to do their homework and that they're "pretending" to know more than they really do. If you're lumping me into that population you're sorely mistaken.

[bettyellen]

65. it's interesting you think it is a narrow topic- anyone who is familiar with the oppression of women

by religious RWers knows the lack of support for motherhood- forcing all women and babies to attempt to rely on a man for survival- goes hand in hand with other sorts of oppressive policies. Anyone who cares about the issue understands the what the OP implies. Methods such as coercing (vaginal probes) or forcing women to have those babies no matter what- even if you are dead, or sent to jail to incubate the child are why the "American Taliban" deserves that moniker. Not sure why you insist they do not. I bet if men who impregnanted women went to jail or had their penis probed you'd feel differently.

When it's all academic to you, you can sit on the sidelines and parse words, and pretend these are unrelated issues. They are not unrelated, these things are part of systemic oppression that is (as the OP shows) NOT acceptable in the rest of the modern world.

[George II]

67. Say what you will, the ONLY thing that the OP shows is that the US is one of a few countries...

....that doesn't have paid maternity leave.

I'm through with your generalizations about groups of people, just as I've had enough of your insults. Good luck to you - with the attitude you've expressed in this discussion, I'm afraid you have a long, difficult road ahead of you.

[bettyellen]

70. Well, thanks for your impassioned defense of American RW extremists, LOL.

And come back when you understand more about the war on women that they wage in America, so you can weigh in on THAT, instead of playing possum.

[George II]

85. I find your accusation of me defending American RW extremists and being ignorant of........

.........women's causes offensive. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't call for the insults.

[niyad]

82. you are aware, of course, that there is nothing in the tos that requires one to stay "on the narrow

topic in the op". yes??? believe it or not, many op's generate discussions that frequently have nothing to do with the OP. except, in this case, the american taliban is far from being hyperbole, if you are paying ANY attention at all to what is going on in this country with the extreme religious and political right.

but keep trying, we can all use the laugh.

[George II]

84. Yes, I am aware of that, but it's unseemly especially when the poster who has gone off topic...

...resorts to disrespectful generalizations and insults about people he/she has never met and know nothing about.

Like you.

[niyad]

86. as I said, keep it up. we all need the laughs. remdi85

[Enthusiast]

99. But after a while it ceases to be funny.

[gtar100]

93. Agreed. I was able to follow along with the discussion. Apparently somebody else wasn't. Can't

figure out why all the fuss. Thanks for your responses. You probably don't need to be told but I wanted to express that your points are not lost on everyone.

[bettyellen]

104. thank you, it isn't often people pretend to completely misunderstand the context of an oft used

phrase like that. But sadly they didn't want to understanding- it was a nit that they wanted to pick. What an sad and weak defense of religious extremist here.

[Bradical79]

64. They're destructive policies supported by religious conservatives?

Probably would have been better to name the numerous anti-women's rights issues the GOP and religious conservatives in the U.S. support to relate better to the map topic. The American Taliban term has been used on this board fro years. Earliest I remember was around the time Alan Grayson got heat for his campaign's seemingly accurate (but not necessarily politically smart) "Taliban Dan" ad before he lost his seat comparing his opponent's policies and comments on women to the Taliban. It's an easy comparison for anyone angry about conservatives treatment of women to make though, so I'm sure it's not the first time. Anyway, I think the label is less important than what the map is showing. Any thoughts on that?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

20. The GOP nominated one in 2012:

[Vashta Nerada]

21. It's a pretty apt description of our country.

[KarenS]

22. Nope. n/t

[7962]

32. I agree, but we are in the minority here on that issue. nt

[George II]

35. It's pretty repulsive that people around here would equate a terrorist state with....

....no paid maternal leave!

Some of the posts around here get more bizarre every day.

[dreamnightwind]

39. Except the OP didn't do that

The use of the term American Taliban wasn't based solely on the maternity leave issue, at least the OP made no such indication, and if you think about it, it logically follows that it's based on a large number of issues where the right-wing religious nuts in this country overlap with Taliban views, one of which is discussed in the OP.

Why you would need to twist the OP in that way is beyond me. If you want to challenge the appropriateness of calling our religious right American Taliban, knock yourself out. Seems to me they differ more in degree than in principle.

[George II]

42. NOTHING was "discussed" in the OP - it was a single graphic with no text other than the subject line

What did I "twist"?

Other than the Taliban what reference was there to religion at all? Perhaps the post was intentionally vague?

[bettyellen]

43. perhaps you need to read up on what we call "the american taliban" s the OP was

not informative, and most people working for womens' rights already KNOW exactly what is referring to.

[George II]

46. Perhaps, but going back to my first post on the subject, I think that reference is extreme.

[bettyellen]

48. yeah, the Taliban isn't imprisoning women or forcing dead women to incubate babies…. or

suggesting vaginal probes. I doubt they force women to prosecute their attacks or lose medical benefits they need because of said attacks. Or suggest vaginal probes. So, yeah, the methods are different.

[George II]

50. Yet AGAIN - WHERE are all of those things mentioned in the OP? Sheesh!

[bettyellen]

66. They don't need to be spelled out to anyone who has advocated for womens' rights. We are quite

familiar with the issues. Aren't you able to add 2+2?

[George II]

68. Oh, I see....

...."we don't have to TELL you what we're thinking, you have to figure it out yourself. But if you don't figure out what we're thinking, then you're just another "MAN"!"

Sorry, I don't play that game. Good evening.

[bettyellen]

69. It's not a game. If you don't understand why people have been calling the religious right the

"American Taliban" I'd suggest you educate yourself. Everyone else here knows EXACTLY what it means, so they do not completely lack context. I am shocked anyone here knows so little @ the topic. SHOCKED.

[dreamnightwind]

45. Still trying?

The twist was assigning the issue discussed, maternity leave, sole responsibility for the choice of the American Taliban label, when no such claim was made or implied. It is one of a host of issues that were behind that label. Agree with it or not, but you made a straw-man argument.

[George II]

62. Straw man argument? Please explain.

I have NO idea what you're talking about, nor do I understand how you can construe any of what I've said a "straw man" argument.

I guess I'm just not smart enough to decipher some of what's been said here today. That's what I get for living in the real world.

[dreamnightwind]

73. Already did that

Not going to continue, have a good one.

[George II]

75. Ah, the dance continues....

[dreamnightwind]

79. No it doesn't

welcome to ignore.

[Caretha]

77. Hey George!

IMO you can have an opinion when you stay home to raise children and your wife brings home $450 a week. OW, you should probably keep your juvenile uneducated world view to yourself.


I also think that hard working wife needs to have 10 beers a week at $2.50 each, cuz she worked so hard....subtract $25 from that $450 she's bringing home.

Heh

[Lunacee_2013]

58. Not really, no.

It's a term used for the right-winger, ultra conservative, extremely anti-choice Christian set that, if they ever got their chance, would treat women like the Taliban treats women. No abortions ever, no matter what the reason, no higher education for girls, wives will belong to their husbands, etc, etc.
And maybe I'm guessing here, but I wouldn't be too surprised to find out that the right wingers here and the right wing there are both against paid maternity leave, 'cause you know, they think women should never work outside the home to begin with.

[seattledo]

74. How so?

Care to explain?

[SunSeeker]

81. Forced birth + no paid leave is extreme.

On those issues, American conservatives are MORE extreme than the Taliban.

[paleotn]

96. Nope. It fits perfectly. (nt)

[livingwagenow]

100. Would Tealiban be more preferable? nt

[mountain grammy]

101. Any group that wants to restrict the freedoms of others in the name of religion

deserves the name "Taliban." Prayer and teaching religious doctrine in public schools, restriction of rights of women, and an anti gay agenda are all scary signs of religious rule which has never worked in history. Our founders, despite their faults and hypocrisy, understood the danger of the establishment of a state religion so well they prohibited the government from doing so in the first amendment of the constitution.

As far as the original post equating "Taliban" with paid maternity leave... I do believe these policies are unacceptable to American corporations but something working people would love. So how do you convince the masses these policies are un American? Why, by preaching to the flocks. I believe the right wing corporate rulers are doing their dirty work through tax exempt pulpits all over the country.
Jesus plus nothing, the American Taliban.

[George II]

105. Referring to them as "right wing religious extremists" would be so much better, especially for....

...those who aren't "insiders".

[TexasBushwhacker]

24. No required paid sick leave either

Not having paid sick leave leads to so many problems. There are sick food workers transmitting food borne illnesses. Sick workers expose their co-workers to their illness. Perhaps worst of all are people who return to work against their doctors advice. I worked at a company without paid sick leave many years ago. There was a young man in his 20's who had to stay home with a bad kidney infection. Against his doctor's advice, he returned to work because he couldn't afford to stay home. His kidney infection progressed to kidney failure. One morning while he was eating breakfast, he collapsed and died. He wasn't even 30!

[oldandhappy]

28. More exceptionalism!!

Sad, eh? This map is striking. I am glad I saw it. Really. So many places have paid maternal leave -- places we think of as 'third world' or otherwise somehow not up to our mark. Hope this gets a broad distribution.

[cui bono]

29. In Denmark they also get paid PATERNAL leave.

I think it's a year total for maternal and paternal.

[Triana]

31. It makes sense.

That way the child's parents are not stressed out and have plenty of time to bond with and care for their new child. No doubt it makes a huge social difference - positive social difference. But all the corpo-fascist class in the U.S. care about is MONEY - not the economy or economic stability or sustainability, not a stable society, not a healthy natural environment, not lives or health - just M O N E Y. As long as "free markets" allow them to make as much MONEY as they want no matter what the human, social, economic or natural COST of that profit is - this is where the United States will remain - in some sort of self-imposed econo-social dark age.

[dreamnightwind]

40. Yes

It's the difference between seeing people as people vs. seeing people as human resources.

[FourScore]

56. In Germany too and here's why:

1. To prevent discrimination against women. Employers may be reluctant to hire women if they get 6 months to a year in paid maternal leave. If both men and women have the same right, then women won't be discriminated against in the job application process.

2. To prevent discrimination against men. It's their kid too! Shouldn't they be allowed that early time with a newborn if they so choose?

Makes sense to me!

[jeff47]

103. There's another angle

Not all women want to be the one raising the kids. Sometimes, the father is the primary childcare provider.

[polly7]

72. EI also provides 'Parental' benefits here for a period of up to 35 weeks,

which includes maternity, paternity and adoption leave.

To be eligible for EI parental benefits, each parent who applies for benefits must have accumulated at least 600 hours of insurable employment in his or her qualifying period. If you are a self-employed fisher, you must have earned $3,760 from fishing during the 31-week qualifying period immediately before the start of your benefit period."

Can both parents apply for EI parental benefits?

Yes, but they have to share the benefits. In total, there are 35 weeks of parental benefits available to eligible parents of a newborn or newly adopted child.

There are many ways you can decide to use your parental leave. For instance, one of the parents can take the entire 35 weeks of benefits, or both parents can share them.

Examples

If the biological mother wants to return to work after her maternity leave, the other parent can then take the 35 weeks of parental benefits.

If one spouse decides to take only 10 weeks of parental leave before returning to work, the other spouse can use the remaining 25 weeks of benefits.

If one spouse decides to return to work after taking a few weeks of parental leave, but then realizes a few weeks later that he or she would prefer to stay home with the child, he or she is still entitled to the unused weeks of parental benefits, as long as the 52-week period after the birth or adoption placement has not expired.

http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/ei/types/maternity_parental.shtml#long

[RainDog]

34. k&r n/t

[Politicalboi]

37. We can't have "lazy mothers"

Always getting herself pregnant and expecting others to flip the bill.

[Lunacee_2013]

52. Wait, do you really expect them to actually care about the vessels (women) that carry those babies?

Haha. I can't see the numbers on infant health care and early childhood education being much better either. Why should I be forced to hand over my hard earned money to them? Even if they're still kids we should make them work for their school lunches. That'll teach them the value of hard work (or shame), which their parents can't teach them because they're poor too and we all know that poor people are only poor because they're lazy and unmotivated. As for paid maternity leave, why do they need it? They are pregnant, not sick! Women in other (3rd world) countries don't have it and they seem to be doing just fine! Everyone just needs to pull themselves up by their own boot straps and work harder! And if you're not rich after doing that, well then you didn't really work hard enough or there's something wrong with you.


Phew, ok did I manage to hit all the right wing talking points when it comes to pre-natal care, maternity leave, and early childhood education? I might have missed some, but I'm not sure if I can fit anymore nonsense into my head right now.

Amazing graph though. USA is 1 of only 8 countries that doesn't do paid maternity leave, 188 other countries do have it. So much for all the cries of "the children, won't someone think of the children!" 'Cause apparently America doesn't seem to care too much about them or their mothers.

[DirkGently]

55. American Exceptionalism. Exceptionally backward, that is.

[FourScore]

59. They don't understand why women are working outside the home to begin with.

If women knew their place, we wouldn't need this chart.

[JEB]

60. Once you're born it's bootstrap time.

[frwrfpos]

61. that is a disturbing map

I had no idea how backwards we are here

[lunasun]

76. we are exceptional!!

[The Wizard]

63. Civilization's bane

American Tealiban

[defacto7]

80. Oh, Beautiful

for spacious skies
for amber waves of grain,
for purple mountain......



Weep for America.

[DeSwiss]

87. American business never concerns itself with things maternal.....

...unless she's a rich widow looking to invest.

- K&R

[ileus]

89. what does forced birth and paid leave have to do with one another?

My wife had paid leave for our first child, she went to PT until our second was 18mo then returned to work and college FT.

She also wasn't forced to have a children...where does that come into play concerning work leave?

[A Little Weird]

91. Job security and financial stress

The religious right is trying to reduce/eliminate abortion and yet they fail to recognize that one of the big reasons women choose abortion is because of financial necessity. If they really were interested in reducing abortion rates, they would be working toward improving things like paid time off, childcare, etc. That's the way I see it anyway.

[davidpdx]

90. I live in one of the two nations that has a half year or more of maternity leave

which is South Korea. We also have a universal healthcare system. The population is going to go down over the next 45 years, so both will be important to keep it from going down too much.

I think someone posted this fairly recently.

[blackspade]

92. That is a damning map!

[YOHABLO]

94. But we're the ''Greatest Nation'' in the world!

We don't have to compare ourselves to other nations. of course.

[onlyadream]

97. It wasn't too long ago

It wasn't too long ago that a woman would lose her job if she took unpaid leave. I remember being grateful that I got a few measly weeks to be with my newborn. My boss, from Poland, felt bad for me (he told me that the fathers and mothers both got a year off to be with their child in his country). He allowed me to return part time for a year.
It makes sense to allow the fathers time off as well, since that would limit companies from not hiring women based on fear that they would have a baby. It would also encourage companies to hold on to older workers.

[Enthusiast]

98. What does this tell us about the nation?

We value the fetus but not the child and certainly not the mother? So it seems. Such is the nature of right wing rule.