911 tapes to be released this afternoon. Re: Trayvon Martin shooting.

[The Backlash Cometh]

More information available, which doesn't make Zimmerman's case stronger, though you wouldn't know it reading the paper.

He did get out of the car and confront Trayvon, and Trayvon came towards him. They claim that the prosecutors don't think they can get a manslaughter charge because Zimmerman claimed self-defense and Florida laws allow him to stand his ground. Now, here's the thing that doesn't make sense. Why didn't Trayvon have the right to defend himself? If he felt threatened, wouldn't he have the right to defend himself too?

And, of course, the biggest hole:Zimmerman was told not to confront Trayvon, but the evidence shows that he did.

Trayvon Martin shooting: Police to release 911 calls in Trayvon Martin shooting

Zimmerman told police he got out of his SUV to follow Trayvon on foot, and the 17-year-old came toward him.

The two got into a fight, and Zimmerman wound up on the ground, he told police. Trayvon hit him in the face, and Zimmerman yelled for help.

Several witnesses heard the fight, including a 13-year-old boy out walking his dog, but there have been different accounts of who was crying for help.

It was Zimmerman, Serino said. He said he is certain of that because he played a recording of that voice for Trayvon's father, Tracy Martin, and the Miami man said the voice was not his son's.


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-911-call-20120316,0,5950789.story

[slackmaster]

1. K&R. I hope the tapes clear things up, and that the New Black Liberation Militia doesn't do...

...anything stupid.



This is a tragic situation. As I understand the SYG law, it does not apply to someone who starts a fight then decides to use overwhelming force when the fight is not going as planned.

[The Backlash Cometh]

3. Exactly.

Especially when he was told not to confront the suspect. That has to result in at least manslaughter.

[slackmaster]

5. The directive of a 911 operator has no legal weight

911 has no authority to tell a caller what to do or not to do. They can and should give advice, but it carries no authority.

The big questions in my mind are at what point the gun came into play, and exactly what transpired after that.

[The Backlash Cometh]

8. In a previous article, it said that it's standard for Neighbor Watch volunteers

NOT to confront suspects.

[slackmaster]

13. Yes, and I believe that doesn't have any legal relevance either

It's not even a contract.

[The Backlash Cometh]

15. I go with the reason that Zimmerman put himself in a position of danger,

so the rule should not apply.

[JustAnotherGen]

2. I would just like to know this from Mr. Zimmerman

WHYYYYYYYYYYY was Trayvon suspicious?

Was he jiggling door knobs?

Was he 'casing' a house in an obvious manner?

Was he trying garage doors?

What precisely made him 'look' suspicious? This jerk could really settle a lot if he would just come out and state precisely what the activity was that Trayvon was engaging in that caused him to follow him in an SUV.

Was Trayvon putting someone's life in danger (other than his own) and is that why Zimmerman got out of an SUV and shot the kid?

Because right now - I can only see it from one perspective - and the perspective is that Trayvon was a young black male in white Zimmerman's neighborhood.

[slackmaster]

4. Mr. Zimmerman has a defense attorney who has certainly counseled him to heep his mouth shut

Good advice for someone who may be facing a murder charge.

[JustAnotherGen]

9. I'm sure he does

Have good lawyers.


Most people that shoot unarmed black teenagers do. And from what I'm hearing about Florida and that Police Department (one justice system for whites, another for blacks) - he doesn't even NEED a good lawyer! He's white - so it's alright!

[Hoyt]

12. And shot an unarmed teenager with gun he should not have carried.

[anti-alec]

47. First degree murder - with depraved indifference

Yup, that's what the DA should be charging Zimmerman with....

Other than that, it's gonna be a mess.

[slackmaster]

53. Possibly so, unless it turns out that the voice screaming for help on the tapes was Zimmerman's

Or possibly second-degree murder, or some level of manslaughter.

[bettyellen]

55. so I'm coming at you with a bag of skittles, and you have a gun pointed at me and are begging

for your life why? not buying it. h

[slackmaster]

57. We don't know exaxtly what happened in the apparent struggle, or when the gun came into play

Time will tell.

Just a data point: In training for carrying a concealed handgun, students are taught not to ever display the weapon until they are prepared to fire it.

I have the impression that George Zimmerman isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but we really do not know what exactly happened in the moments that led up to the shooting.

We also have not heard George Zimmerman's account of what happened.

[The Backlash Cometh]

7. I wonder if Zimmerman approached with the gun in hand?

Because Trayvon may have done the only sensible thing, if he thought he was in imminent danger. Fight like hell. And he would have had fear and adrenaline on his side, which is why it sounds like he would have prevailed--if not for the gun.

[JustAnotherGen]

11. Fair point

And that's what I'm hoping the tapes will clear up. But it seems like it won't matter in that community since Trayvon was black. He was supposed to keep his head down and take the shot or the pistol whipping.

[slackmaster]

14. I was taught to run like hell if someone brandishing a gun approaches me

Fight them only if there seems to be no alternative.

[Beaverhausen]

24. "all the other kids with the pumped-up kicks better run run run...outrun my gun"

really?

[slackmaster]

25. I don't know who you are quoting or how that is relevant to this discussion, but I'll explain myself

I was taught by more than one self-defense instructor that running away from an armed attacker as fast as possible often gives you the best likelihood of survival.

Most people are not proficient at shooting a handgun or any other kind of firearm. The size of the target you present is inversely proportional to the square of your distance from the weapon. Once you are about 20 feet away and moving, the chance of some random undisciplined POS with a handgun hitting you is low. At 50 feet you are pretty much home free.

[The Backlash Cometh]

36. If Trayvon had lived long enough, maybe he would have had

the benefit of attending a self-defense class.

[slackmaster]

54. That's a very good question, TBC, and it may turn out to be relevant at Zimmerman's trial

If there is a trial. At what point did the gun come into play, and how?

[Politicalboi]

6. Even if it was Zimmerman

Crying for help, that doesn't give him the right to shoot Trayvon. The kid wasn't even armed. Maybe Zimmerman got pissed because the kid kicked the shit out of him for harassing him in the first place.

[slackmaster]

10. A lot of people have pointed out that the kid wasn't armed, but that is really not relevant

A person need not be in possession of a weapon to pose a deadly threat.

I'm not saying that he did pose a threat at any time, I really don't know. But the fact that he was unarmed really doesn't mean anything.

[Politicalboi]

18. But the fact that Zimmerman was armed

Gave him an advantage. The kid didn't pull out a gun and threaten him. It didn't take place in Zimmermans house. And Zimmerman looks like a huge man compared to the kid. And Zimmerman was in a mostly white community, which also makes him more prone to act violently towards any "others" that stroll in to "his" territory. I'm not disagreeing with you, the law is the law I guess. I hope the tape tells us more.

[Beaverhausen]

26. You are correct. Zimmerman outweighed the kid by 100 lbs. This is outright murder.

[Hoyt]

19. Clear to me that a gun toting bully caused this.

District Attorney says he hasn't got a case, or is it he can't get a jury to convict a gun toting bully in Florida
for shooting a Black teenager?

[slackmaster]

20. Sometimes when a state attorney says he hasn't got a case, it just means he hasn't got a case

But the Florida SA has said that yet.

[The Backlash Cometh]

40. Well, looks like your argument went out the window.

Not only did the boy try to run away, but he was chased by the man welding the gun.

[slackmaster]

41. I haven't presented any kind of "argument" here, but if what you wrote is true, it was murder

[The Backlash Cometh]

42. Link here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101476599

[yardwork]

22. The fact that a 17 year old kid was unarmed and then shot dead doesn't mean anything?

I'd say it means something.

[slackmaster]

27. The Astute Reader will note that I didn't say anything consistent with yardwork's snide reply

I said the fact that the victim was unarmed won't make any difference in whether or not George Zimmerman is charged with a crime.

[liberalhistorian]

52. So, exactly, what was his "deadly threat?"

Walking while black, minding his own business, in his own neighborhood, carrying a can of iced tea and skittles? Yeah, that's it. Musta been the skittles. I hear those packages can really pack a dangerous deadly wallop, especially against a puny GUN.

[bettyellen]

56. totally relevant since his ADMITTED STALKER was armed.

[DevonRex]

16. IMO he could have called for help to cover his ass.

That way he gets to shoot the kid and look like a victim and a hero all rolled up in one.

He had been told not to confront the young man. But he did. He wanted something dramatic to happen and he made it happen. Now he's in the news.

[Politicalboi]

21. I totally agree

I think he provoked the whole thing. He should have just watched from his car like he was told.

[DevonRex]

29. Yeah. Like firefighters who start fires and

then get on tv for fighting the fire. There are also policemen who'll do the same sorts of things. And parents who make their kids sick so they get to look like the brave and selfless parent of the year for taking care of the sick child.

In this case it's a neighborhood watch idiot. Maybe he always wanted to be a real cop. Combine that with racism and you have a young black male dead. Again.

[yardwork]

30. I think you're right. Apparently Zimmerman was taking courses in criminal justice.

Sounds like a wanna be cop. He had his little gun, he'd gotten himself elected block captain of his neighborhood watch group, and when he got a chance to shoot a "criminal" - an unarmed kid - he did.

[DevonRex]

32. Aww man.

So tragic that a young life was lost just because some insecure man had the need to look big.

I worked with a guy like that once. They're dangerous and sick. You know it and there's nothing you can do until they screw up.

Neighborhood watch is ripe for people like him. Nobody else really wants to do it so they let the gungho guy do it every time. They think it'll be okay since nothing ever really happens, right? Until it does.

[yardwork]

35. And check this out - he called 911 forty six times in the past year!

Zimmerman said he tailed Trayvon in a mission to find out if the teen was up to no good. Zimmerman was out to put a stop to recent burglaries. He dialed police - his 46th call in the past 14 months to report shady people, reckless drivers and other disturbances around his neighborhood.

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/2012/03/15/3494117/witnesses-in-florida-teens-death.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy

[DevonRex]

43. Woah. I believe Ms. Cutcher and her friend. Absolutely.

They were the first on the scene and were the closest to what happened. And the police chief sounds way too defensive in his last statement.

WTF is it with the police not thinking Zimmerman is a nut job with 46 calls to 911? That is very, very strange. Any other police department in the nation would have him pegged as a busybody at best and a wacko at worst. They absolutely HATE their time being wasted. They hate their 911 lines being tied up with nonsense.

Most neighborhood watch groups eventually peter out because there is absolutely nothing to do. Ever. By anybody. The thought that anyone could make 46 legitimate calls to 911 in 14 months would tell me that I'm paying WAY too much to live in that "gated" community and should just go live with the ordinary people who rarely have to call 911 unless there's a medical emergency.

[The Backlash Cometh]

37. If by "screw up" you mean commit a criminal offense,

people in this county "screw up" all the time and most of the time all they get is a great war story they can share on the nineteenth hole.

[DevonRex]

44. Not so for the types we're talking about, unfortunately.

But the screw-up happens when they leave evidence of their crimes and thus can be convicted. People like this want the drama, so they want the fire or the death or the illness to occur so they can look like a hero and get in the news. That's not screwing up in their eyes. They're the firemen who put out the fires they start, the cop wannabes who kill someone they claim was committing a crime, or the Munchausen by Proxy Moms who tirelessly care for the children they make ill.

These are the people you get a gut feeling about early on but can't stop until they screw up and leave evidence behind or some witness, or, more likely get tangled up in their own lies. They're intelligent and rational yet ill.

[SunsetDreams]

17. Thank you for this...K&R

[yardwork]

23. It sounds like the police have been ignoring the eyewitnesses.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/seminole/os-trayvon-martin-witness-tv-report-20120315,0,559932.story?obref=obinsite

[warrior1]

28. who looks more scary

[yardwork]

31. Update - the family and their attorneys heard the tapes. There were two shots.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-16/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-911-call-20120316_1_warning-shot-jeff-triplett-commissioner-velma-williams

The family of Trayvon Martin spent hours Friday night with police, listening to the eight 911 calls made the night the 17-year-old was shot and killed by a neighborhood crime watch volunteer in Sanford.

...

Natalie Jackson, another attorney, said Zimmerman fired a warning shot then a kill shot.

"You hear a shot, a clear shot, then you hear a 17-year-old boy begging for his life," Jackson said. "Then you hear a second shot."

[uppityperson]

33. Fuck. Arrest Zimmerman now.

[anti-alec]

50. Throw him to the death row.

He's guilty as hell, and the tapes prove it.

Zimmerman's defense attorney is going to attempt to suppress the 911 call. Not going to happen.

Zimmerman better be praying to his $DIETY because death row is not a place to live.

[The Backlash Cometh]

38. No Fugging way!

OMIGOD, Thanks for the link. I'm freaking out if it was that cold blooded.

[vaberella]

46. Oh shit. He murdered the kid. OMG. Jesus Christ.

The Florida police are racist fucks.

[yardwork]

34. 911 tapes released.

DUer MsFlorida has the tapes posted:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101476599#post11

Note that the local news station is now suppressing the tapes that record two shots and a young person pleading for his life, leaving up only one tape on their website, the one where Zimmerman describes his victim in terms that turned out to be proven lies.

The full set of 911 tapes can be found at:

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

Edited: On the third 911 call you can hear a young man screaming for his life. It goes on for minutes. As the mother of two teenage sons I am horrified.

[obamanut2012]

39. Until the killing shot -- then the boy's screams stop

Absolutely chilling.

[DevonRex]

48. I cannot listen.

Ive read all the descriptions and they're horrific enough.

I remember one night when my older son was running from a party and was tackled and handcuffed by a cop. My younger son called and told us what he had seen happen. He and my husband went there to resolve it.

I'll never forget how frightening it was, not knowing and just waiting and waiting. Thing is, he actually did something wrong. Underage drinking and smoking pot, running when told to stop by a cop. And the cop was rough with him. But he didn't SHOOT him.

That damned Florida law has to be changed. Anybody can murder anybody they want and claim self defense. Any loser like Zimmerman can play God and shoot a black child for "walking slow" or wearing a hoodie in a white neighborhood.

Have people really thought about just how skinny 6'3" 140 lbs really is? That child couldn't be a threat to a man of 240 lbs. no way in hell. Zimmerman is a liar and a murderer.

[Blue_Tires]

45. the money quote from the 911 call:

In the call placed by Zimmerman to alert authorities that there was a suspicious person in the neighborhood, he says the person "looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something."

Moments later, Zimmerman says, "These assholes, they always get away."

Young black male walking to 7-11 = "Up to no good, possibly a drug addict"

[DevonRex]

49. The truth is heartbreakingly sweet.

He went to get Skittles for his little brother to eat while watching the NBA All-Star Game together. It makes me cry.

[girl gone mad]

51. Such a cute kid, too..

with his whole life ahead of him. Wanted to be an aviation engineer.