So if I'm supposed to cut off sex

[Nuclear Unicorn]

when some politician upsets me am I supposed give extra sex when some poltician does something I like?

Who is keeping score?

Why do I even care to keep score?

What if I just want to -- er -- score?

Seriously, I am not letting the latest news cycle determine my sex life. Nor am I treating the person I swore to love above all others as if he's an accounting formula to be manipulated for my personal gain. And I refuse to manipulate myself like that as well. My body is not one of those machines psychologists use to reward lab animals in their operant conditioning experiments. My husband is not a lab animal to be conditioned.

Withhold sex over politics?

Screw that.

[larkrake]

1. Use a vibrator

If the man you love is on your side of the issue, he needs to tell congress. He wont speak up if you give in to pleas.

[Nye Bevan]

2. An imperfect substitute for a loving, patient and considerate man

who knows what he is doing. At least, that's what I have been told.

My wife would never participate in one of these stupid "protests", as it would be more of a punishment for her than for me. Multiply so, in fact.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

6. How ridiculous. That is so manipulative and petty as to be satanic -- and I'm an atheist.

[seabeyond]

7. you are suggesting women use sex as a weapon, tool?

not gonna happen.

[HappyMe]

8. Doesn't that play right into stereotypes of women?

'Pleas' ? lol!

[The Doctor.]

12. You're urging women to be manipulative?

Doesn't that kind of play into a bad stereotype?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

13. Worse. It's hypocrisy.

As seabeyond so pointedly noted feminism presumes to tell us to be our own person, make-up our own minds; especially on matters of sex. Yet, here we are being to what to do in matters of sex, not for the sake of being our own person but for accommodating a group.

That's not to say there isn't a resistance effort to be joined to pushback against genuine concerns; I'm only speaking against betraying previous victories that have been so hard to achieve for a temporary issue -- and doing so at the expense of people that love and support us.

My body is my gift to my husband, not a commodity to procure goods and services.

[lumberjack_jeff]

29. If Pat Robertson tells you to hold an aspirin between your knees, that's bad.

When Gloria Steinem tells you to, that's different.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

36. You know, I was reading some of your exchanges lately and I have to say

You seem to try and discuss things fairly and calmly. You discuss without the verbal blandishments, accusations, ad homs, etc. I appreciate that.

I even appreciate the fact you've challenged some of my long-held assumptions. I may not have liked where those challenges lead but I feel that in the end I have a more consistent -- and with that a stronger -- feminist ideal. seabeyond has also contributed much. Though you two started your conversation from opposites sides I think you both produced good dialogue.

[seabeyond]

43. what i really find ironic, and enjoyable, is though labeled closed minded

i really fine others thoughts interesting, educational and fun, allowing me to have good conversations with many that have differing views, in a respectful and appreciative manner. but, those that accuse me of being closed minded, bigoted (and others accused of it, that i have the good conversations with) are the ones that end up being the least fun to have conversation with because you get a snark with no discussion.

even in disagreement.

and there is no fun in the lack of conversation, in those situations.

it is one of those situations that i have seen so much recently, that boggles my mind. but, like i say, it is really interesting in and of itself, because it is part of learning and understanding.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

46. I think too many would rather win than be right

The retort that I can't stand is, "You're just a Rush/Hannity/GOP/Nazi-bot." That's just the other person trying to silence those they can't reply to. If Rush or whoever said it and Rush or whoever is so stupid they can be easily refuted then just stop with the name calling and refute it already. If you can't refute it then you're not smart enough to stand-up to the likes of Limbaugh. Tap-out and send in someone smarter.

People who can conversate -- actually talk -- to people with whom they may or may not disagree are the real winners. Everything should be an opportunity to learn. If there was a blazing code of morality etched in the sky we wouldn't need elections or the messy politics that necessarily follow (although my limited reading of the Bible says even when there was a booming voice people still got stupid).

They say virtue is its own reward and civility is definitely a virtue.

[lumberjack_jeff]

91. Thank you, that's very kind of you to say.

[LoZoccolo]

45. I was just thinking of this in relation to choice for men.

When we want the right not to be fathers if we so choose, it's "you shoulda kept it in your pants".

[Zalatix]

48. "(My body is) not a commodity to procure goods and services."

This should be recorded as an all-time statement in the halls of equality activism. Or, at least, a DU quote of all time.

[LoZoccolo]

50. See my post #39. n/t

[Zalatix]

52. That's a long read... I like Nuclear Unicorn's approach to that.

NU sums up the entire remedy to your linked article in one short sentence.

It was stunningly beautiful in its brevity and sheer power.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

55. You make me blush. thank-you

[seabeyond]

56. yes.

and i have to wonder why, someone so often and consistently puts forth the effort as if pushing this agenda. whereas, you say so perfectly "NU sums up the entire remedy to your linked article in one short sentence."

why the effort to make it otherwise.

[Zalatix]

70. We absolutely need both that article and Nuclear Unicorn's response to it.

People need to read "Sexual Economics: Sex as Female Resource..." because so many human beings actually do follow the rules and analysis put forth in that study. It's how animals behave, and whether human beings came down from trees or fell from Grace (and I subscribe to the latter; not trying to be stealthy or anything), we as a species nonetheless landed in the same place: we do act very much like animals.

Then they need to read what NU said because it represents our ability to surpass the limitations of the animal world.

Not trying to kiss butt here; someone was bound to make this rational statement, because it is the rational way out of "Sexual Economics". Now someone has, and hopefully in 50 years from now we'll count it as one of those boringly self-evident things that you have to be a fracking idiot not to understand. For now, though, it's revolutionary.

[seabeyond]

72. i don't see it as a viable report

because i think they left a lot of history and reality out of the report that clearly shows why this is. i think it is manipulated to carry on a stereotype of women. not a learning tool

[LoZoccolo]

74. A woman is one of the two authors. n/t

[Zalatix]

77. She doesn't speak for every woman. Obviously.

[seabeyond]

79. so? nt

[Zalatix]

76. Can't dispute those points.

It doesn't represent all women, either.

However, enough people live by those caveman-ish rules that we need to expose it and make it go away.

How else do you explain the propagation of Republicanism? This is their world to a T. Liberals...? Not so much.

[seabeyond]

81. but it doesnt dispel it when the point is as if it is

an absolute of our gender opposed to a creation by man, allowing women no other choice in survival.

to leave out the very reasoning why women have adopted this mentality is failure in presenting an argument and only allows the cavemanish excuse.

[Zalatix]

86. Okay, wasn't seeing it from that perspective. I had to re-read this thing

it appears you have a strong point about who actually established these rules about sexual exchange.

Frankly the whole concept of sexual exchange is outdated anyway.

[seabeyond]

87. yes it is, which is the other point, totally left out to make their argument

that it is nature. when women started being ALLOWED to become independent, free both economically and sexually, all this supposed nature thing shifted. evolution does not work so quickly. and though the residual still exists, the conditioning we have all lived under, the societal and cultural conditioning, all prove that it is manufactured, not who we are.

i see it as totally bogus and the very problem that women have lived with from the beginning of time.

[lumberjack_jeff]

27. But sex isn't transactional, so stop saying that. n/t

[HappyMe]

3. You are a wise Unicorn. Nuclear, too!

I could not have said it better.

I love and respect my sweetheart. He loves and respects me. Our sex life is not anybody's business, nor will I let it be manipulated by anyone. Not for any cause.

As far as the 'use a vibrator' crowd goes - meh, not a subsitute for a real man.

[slackmaster]

4. Hey, you're busting the narrative!

No fair!

K&R

[RC]

5. +10 Right on!

[seabeyond]

9. this is exactly reinforcing the push to control womens sexuality, only

from a totally other angle.

i am so tired of women moaning about the control of their sexuality by man and then reinforcing with use of body, not brain, to fight these controlling men.

[Zalatix]

10. +1 x 10E+300!

[Motown_Johnny]

11. But.. Ancient Greek Women in a play...and ...umm.. an episode of "Here Comes the Brides"

Last edited Fri Mar 16, 2012, 11:40 AM - Edit history (2)

it worked for both of them!


I assume this would only be used by women who are already having issues with their spouse over this issue. It is reasonable to assume that you don't fall into this demographic.



OK, fine. It didn't work on "Here Comes the Brides" and I don't know enough about the play to comment on it.

Happy Now ?!?!?

[EOTE]

14. I don't have too much of an issue with a sex strike to an extent.

I think the wives of any of these assholes should cut them off permanently until they stop their attacks on women. A week long strike is kind of a joke. Hell, if these women truly cared about other women, they'd threaten divorce if their husbands didn't change their ways. I can't see how these women would want to have sex with their husbands anyway, but I certainly can't imagine them continuing to do so while they are acting so abhorrently.

[dawg]

15. Yeah, that's dumb.

It makes no sense to hold good men responsible for the deeds of bad men. Plus, sex should be a 50/50 thing. It isn't some kind of favor that a woman does for a man. (At least it shouldn't be).

[Nuclear Unicorn]

18. That's just what I'd expect a man to say!

[dawg]

19. Well ...

I can be objective on this one. Getting cut off is not something I have to worry about right now.

[NeedleCast]

16. Recommended, for Rational counter to silly suggestion

[phleshdef]

17. Unless someone's significant other supports anti-women's rights policies, then theres no point in it

My wife certainly isn't going to cut me off for something I didn't do.

[brooklynite]

20. Um, what exactly are you taling about?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

21. You need to hang-out with the cool kids more often.

A sex strike has been proposed -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002430007

I may be listed as, "not a fan."

[Warren DeMontague]

22. The whole point of reproductive freedom is for people to decide THEMSELVES when to have sex.

Honestly, this is a goofy fucking idea and I have to believe that it's being promoted by people who enjoy telling other people not to fuck.

Which is exactly what the right-wing republicans and christian right goobers want to do.

The way to piss off the fundies would be to have MORE sex, not less.

[Nye Bevan]

24. Wouldn't it make more sense for women to "strike" by refusing to do something they *don't* enjoy?

Like loading and unloading the dishwasher?

Or scooping up the dog's poop out of the yard?

Why refuse to do something that you enjoy?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

25. I don't do dishes because I enjoy doing them

but because I hate a trashy house even more. Actually me and Lover Boy share the chores and we spend the time winding-up conversations left over from dinner; so saying I hate doing dishes might be a tad misleading.

[Warren DeMontague]

26. Some people have trouble with the idea of women enjoying sex with men for themselves.

Hard as it may be to believe, many women do it because THEY enjoy it, and not as a "gift" or a "present" or a "bargaining chip" for their men.

I agree with you, although honestly I find this whole fucking idea goofy. If women are in a relationship with a man who is insufficiently enthusiastic about reproductive freedom, or a right-wing republican even, maybe they should sit his ass down and talk some fucking sense into him, instead of playing games about the dishes or sex or anything else.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

30. Actually my husband is a conservative sorta-kinda-republican

Though he's nothing of the cheap caricatures that get tossed around DU. Still, he is his own person and I respect that. He respects me and would never, "sit [my] ass down and talk some fucking sense into [me]."

And actually, my body *is* my gift to him just as his body is his gift to me. I accept his gift for the same reason I give mine -- I love him and he loves me.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

40. I'm pro-choice -- hubby has his sincere beliefs

But he isn't my political megaphone, he's my soulmate. We have discussed what we would do if I became pregnant though I'm on the pill.

Conversely, I've dated pro-choice guys and I can say with all honesty half of them were pro-choice just because they knew they wouldn't be on the hook if I became pregnant. From their perspective that liberated them more than me. I'd be lucky if they split the doctor's fee with me.

Whatever his "faults" might be my husband treats me as if I'm the most important person in his world.

[SammyWinstonJack]

83. +1.

[lib_wit_it]

93. Well, that must be nice for you. But how do the Republican policies he supports affect other

women (and men)? And how do those policies affect you in other areas?

Also, since you brought it up, what *would* you do if you became pregnant? Again, since you brought it up, I see a possibility that you may be willing to share that info. If not, please forgive the question.

[Nye Bevan]

42. Agreed. Couples where either one would spitefully refuse to do anything, to make a political point,

have deeper underlying problems in their relationship, and should probably seek counseling.

[LanternWaste]

84. when one of two people cannot ride a two-seater bicycle very well, neither will get very far.

"Some people have trouble with the idea of women enjoying sex with men for themselves..."

I'm compelled to think that, given a particular male's experience, accomplishment and adroitness at a thing, that male may actually believe women indeed, cannot enjoy that thing; much as when one of two people cannot ride a two-seater bicycle very well, neither will get very far.

[Warren DeMontague]

92. Are you talking bout rush, again?

Just a guess..

[saras]

28. Fer chrissakes, just withhold sex from Republicans. If that doesn't affect you, congratulations.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

32. Actually...

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

33. Withholding sex from Republicans has never been a problem for me.

In fact, I can't imagine doing a Republican. Ick.

[seabeyond]

37. or

by having all the sex we want, i am going to say that has been in part having repug hubby vote for kerry, then obama. go figure.

on edit... healthy, happy, open relationship and years of talking has shifted his views.

[nolabear]

31. So we'll mark you down as a no.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

34. I'd rather say, "Yes! Yes! Yes!"

[LoZoccolo]

39. A lot of social customs have to do with that.

http://www.csom.umn.edu/assets/71503.pdf

This movement you speak of is more direct and explicit, but the use of sex as a means of exchange is fairly pervasive in our society. I would propose - as the paper does - that taboos on discussing of sex help prevent exposing these dynamics.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

41. "is" doesn't equal "ought" n/t

[Katie]

47. Apparently it worked on State Del. David Albo (R) in Virginia whose wife refused him sex

Perhaps this is where the women in Kansas got this idea?

David Albo, Virginia Lawmaker, Says Wife Wouldn't Have Sex Because Of Transvaginal Ultrasound Bill http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/24/david-albo-virginia-lawmaker-no-sex-transvaginal-ultrasound_n_1300404.html

Follow up: "McDonnell denounces ultrasound bill; House passes weaker version"
"Del. David B. Albo, R-Fairfax, who sponsored the substitute that passed in the House 65-32 said the changes were a result of a meeting between McDonnell, his staff and members from the House."

“This floor amendment that you see here, was requested by the governor and then was refined by myself and other members of the House and I hope that it will resolve much of the controversy in the bill,” he said on the House floor. http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/virginia-politics/2012/feb/22/32/daily-show-latest-to-lampoon-va-ultrasound-bill-ar-1707568/

I think this might be the reason the women in Kansas are encouraging a strike. Let's face it, the majority of legislators are male, and I think this leaves women in a quandry, as to how to get their point across. It's no joke, saying there is a war on women. I can't believe some of the things I'm reading. It's truly frightening.

As much as I love sex, if I thought "depriving" would do it, I'd do it, it's a small price to pay when you think of what people suffered to get women the vote, or the civil rights movement. No pain, no gain, as they say. I think that's what Sandra Fluke was trying to do, help all of us. She certainly paid a high price for that.

Trouble is, it wouldn't make sense in my home, since my husband doesn't support any bills that are against women. Might it work in other homes? It did in Albo's, but how many truly conservative women would follow through? Not many, if any. I don't know how any self respecting woman would even want to have sex with a man that would support taking rights away from women, but unfortunately there are.

So what's the solution? Demanding that if certain limitations are put on women's health care, that men also have restrictions put on their health care needs? Viagra, vasectomies, "sperm is sacred" http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/03/05/437403/delaware-council-approves-every-sperm-is-sacred-resolution-to-poke-fun-at-personhood-movement/?mobile=nc and a host of others. I just don't know.

Only thing I do know, is that we have strength in numbers. Women can not do this alone. If the men in our lives truly support us, they should start speaking up, loudly, calling, emailing, faxing, tweeting, legislators (of both parties) and putting the heat on. The same things we have to do. If we do this together, we will have a much stronger voice, and it may be the only way to stop some of this madness.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

49. Then Rep Albo's wife has turned her body into a commodity

And turned an expression of affection into a symbol of hostility. I cannot applaud that.

That's not to say don't fight for what you believe in. I'm just saying there are better ways to fight. Manipulating those I love based on some 2500 year old work of fiction from a now-dead civilization isn't where I want to be.

[Katie]

51. With "affection" there should also be respect

I disagree with you on that one point. I think Albo's wife has integrity. How can you get into bed, have sex with a man, that you know would force transvaginal ultrasounds on women for no damn good reason. That procedure is no walk in the park, it can be painful. It's the closest thing you will ever see to state sponsored rape. Who would want to have sex with someone who supports state sponsored rape? I think her reaction was a sign to him, have some respect, that women aren't just there to have sex with, get pregnant and be subjected to those humilating procedures.She wasn't thinking of just herself, but of other women, and I do applaud her on that.

As for fighting, I agree with you there, we must fight for what we believe in and sometimes that requires sacrifice. And yes, there is a better way, by standing together. Not with lip service, but with action, working with us in contacting legislators.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

54. I don't no how there can be affection without respect

And I'm going out on a limb and assume my husband is as anti-rape as a person can be. So what now? No marital congress until he calls congress? He's a person, not a campaign drone to obey me.

[Katie]

67. I think your husband is capable of picking up a phone

Don't you? Emailing, faxing, tweeting, adding his support. I don't think thats asking a lot of anyone. And as I stated before, I know witholding sex would not work in my home, because my husband feels the same way, women are currently being treated, as I and many other women and men do. No one is telling you or anyone else to withold sex. But I was trying to understand why the women in Kansas would think it might. I may not agree with them, but after what happened in Virginia, I can see why they think its an option.

But do I think men should participate as well as women. Majority of legislators are male. Hearing another male voice stating his opposition, to lets say, transvaginal somograms, isn't going to hurt, if anything it might just help. Especially in Red/ Republican states.

Many Democratic politicians, both men and women have expressed their outrage as to what's going on. That's good, and it's sign that as voters, whether we are female or male should do our part too.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

73. In November

I will not be waiting outside the voting booth to review his ballot before deciding whether or not there's monkey-lovin' that night. I'll fuck him every night I feel like fucking because I want to fuck. Nothing else will make that determination and certainly not because of politics, which by its nature is the abject corruption of nature.

[seabeyond]

58. personally, i think his wife probably didnt say that. personally, i think the man used it for a jab

in the rib chuckle with the other men, reducing women..... AGAIN.... to being a commodity and the little woman holding out on them, chuckle chuckle, but.... still, being a man, will buck up and legislate womens bodies.

so no, i dont see it something to hold up as victory.

[Katie]

69. If that was his intent, he certainly didn't pull it off very well

To me , he looked like a man with his pants down..and no where to go with it. The fact that he was the one who sponsored the substitute that passed in the House , leads me to believe, he couldn't wait to rectify the situation.

[Lionessa]

53. So never in all your years together have you ...

given a special night of sex as a gift or a memorial of a particular event or day?

Really?? Never???

Well if you did, and it sounds likely that you have if you love him so much (though I agree with the above posters, a repub for a mate would be too disgusting to consider for me), then you've already designated your body and your sexual participation a commodity.

Just saying.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

57. Oh good grief.

If you can't tell the difference between a wedding anniversary or a birthday vs. gutter politics I don't know what to say.

Supposedly Limbaugh is an ass for calling Sandra Fluke a prostitute but then this tripe gets tossed around in what should be a forum for respectable progressive dialogue. Giving him the extra good lovin' on our anniversary doesn't make me a whore.

[seabeyond]

66. valentines day coming up

hubby and i discussing. he says.... men across the nation are going to be getting some (he was talking about big meals and too full, lol)

i told hubby.... women across the nation are going to be getting some.

it is so ingrained in our society, that all this is one way street, and all about the man, when it is equally ME getting some, too. lol

drives me batty, how we use language to condition all of us. the perpetuates into a reality for all of us. LIKE.... women using sex to manipulate and use.

[seabeyond]

62. do you give the same onus to the man? or is he of course, always wanting

and the woman always with a headache?

just sayin.....

every relationship works it out, but hubby and i soon learned, that regardless if in the mood, the others wants important enough, the effort was well worth it. now we just know, that it will be enjoyed, regardless of who brings it up....

does that make it a commodity, or having a caring, loving, nurturing relationship?

your post perpetuates the irritating stereotypes of womens sexuality. and mens, for that matter.

[WhoIsNumberNone]

59. What if your man doesn't support the offending politics?

I see a flaw in this plan.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

61. I'm confused, honestly

My OP is about NOT participating in the sex-strike, period; because it is in opposition to my feminist ideals.

[nolabear]

60. You may feel differently but this is about having sex with someone who supports your humiliation

and pain. I can't imagine having happy, loving, pleasurable sex with someone who shows all evidence of hating me. Yep, I've said "No" when angry, and I've said "yes" when full of love and even gratitude mixed with love and even when just turned on. I've said "no" when just NOT turned on.

It's not just the news cycle. It's making a point. I'm married to a lovely warm left-leaning guy whose lefty leanings aren't the point but they sure as heck make him as attractive as the RW attitudes would make him repulsive. But in theory would I withhold or encourage withholding from those who want to take away rights and demean in the process? You betcha.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

63. Yes, well, I didn't marry the person you describe and my body is not a commodity for trade.

[nolabear]

75. On second thought, and on edit, never mind. This won't go anywhere.

Enjoy your day.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

78. The day is OK but

I'll probably enjoy the night a lot more.

[WhoIsNumberNone]

71. The problem I see is this:

Many if not most of the men who support the current Republican bullshit are not involved with the kind of woman who would participate in the proposed sex strike. Conversely, the sex strikers would mainly be depriving men who are on their side. This sex strike only works if you can convince the Republican stepford wives to stop putting out.

[HappyMe]

80. Agreed.

The whole bizarre 'sex strike' thing being posted on the DEMOCRATIC underground has me stumped.
The other thing that completely confuses me is telling thinking, liberated women what THEY should be doing (or not doing) with THEIR bodies.
MY body, MY choice works across the board. At least I thought it did.

[shcrane71]

64. I believe this sex strike worked in Sierre Leon.

Or maybe it was Liberia? I'm too lazy to look it up.

For many people, it's hard to fathom being intimate with someone who holds and propagates hate-filled ideas of superiority.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

68. If someone married someone with a superiority complex

as bad as some have described I'm guessing the "inferior" partner is too co-dependent to withhold sex; so it's all rather silly then, isn't it.

And what's more likely is there are a lot of cheap stereotypes and caricatures floating around. I read some of the blanket condemnations then look at my Lover Boy and I have no idea who is being described.

[shcrane71]

88. I don't understand the superiority complex...

But I'm guessing the the women of Western Africa had very little else that they could withhold from the men. They could stop cooking, but the children would need to eat, and then he'd say that it was HIS food anyway. I watched a documentary on this years ago. I remember thinking it was compelling, and I'm ashamed I can't remember more details.

For many people, it's a real turn-off when someone has different values. If I was with someone who revealed to me that they were anti-choice, I'd cut off sex, and I'd end the relationship. I wouldn't be able to get past the fact that the anti-choicer doesn't respect that women need to be in control of their bodies.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

65. Have sex with Republicans all day long if it floats your boat

I can't imagine anyone really cares what you decide to do.

[shcrane71]

89. +1 Agreed.

It's not for everyone. If others choose not to, then that's their choice.

[madokie]

82. Sex is one of them deals where if you pass it up

No matter how hard you try you can never make it up.

[marlakay]

85. I think they must be talking about republican men or something

I can see no reason to cut off sex of my husband who agrees with women's rights.

[Jennicut]

90. Precisely why this idea makes very little sense.

My husband thinks the debate on birth control is beyond ridiculous.