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babsbunny

(8,441 posts)
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 09:32 PM Jan 2014

The ghost of rigged elections past: New revelations on the death of Michael Connell

http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/3/2013/1997

Columns
Bob Fitrakis

The ghost of rigged elections past: New revelations on the death of Michael Connell
December 11, 2013

Michael Connell, the Bush family and Karl Rove’s IT guru, was heading home from Washington D.C. to attend his company’s Christmas party on Friday, December 19th in 2008. An accomplished pilot, he was flying from the College Park, Maryland airport to the Akron-Canton airport in Ohio under unremarkable weather conditions. Yet his Piper Saratoga plane suddenly dove to the ground between two houses in an upscale neighborhood, when he was just 2.5 miles from the airport. The site was roped off, cleaned up within two hours at night against protocol, and the next day his wife found his omniscient Blackberry missing from his still intact knapsack.

The Free Press has uncovered crucial documents that shed light on Connell’s mysterious death as the fifth anniversary of his tragic accident approaches. The document reveals that then-Ohio Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell had signed a legal Statement of Work (SOW) contract with Connell for IT work on the infamous Election Night 2004, when Kerry unexpectedly lost when exit polls showed him winning. Connell and Blackwell agreed fourteen months prior to the 2004 election that that Connell would have “remote monitoring capabilities” to the computer counting Ohio’s presidential vote. That means Blackwell planned more than a year in advance for Connell’s private partisan external third party company and a subcontractor to have unfettered secret access to Ohio’s 2004 vote tally.
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The ghost of rigged elections past: New revelations on the death of Michael Connell (Original Post) babsbunny Jan 2014 OP
Connell’s death was authorized since he was a “NST” – National Security Threat. Ellipsis Jan 2014 #1
Authorized by whom? Who would have had the legal authority to authorize the death of an JDPriestly Jan 2014 #3
...Out searching the google and found a couple hits that say he was not NST Ellipsis Jan 2014 #9
Poppy bush's fingerprints are all over that kind of authorization. loudsue Jan 2014 #61
Add Cheney to that list. eom Frustratedlady Jan 2014 #78
Madsen has it right Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2014 #92
We know Rove's IT firm was handling results on election night when the results flipped. pa28 Jan 2014 #2
25 percent of the Ohio vote was dropped in the 2004 election Samantha Jan 2014 #6
"We know" needs to be foillowed by something supportive. Coyotl Jan 2014 #58
Well, Peter King did tell us not to worry, 'because we count the votes'. And they do. sabrina 1 Jan 2014 #77
K & R !!! WillyT Jan 2014 #4
The Truth will come out. joanbarnes Jan 2014 #5
Anything except the official story is unmitigated woo. ChisolmTrailDem Jan 2014 #7
To woo or not to woo Ellipsis Jan 2014 #13
LOL!!!!! Ode to Woooo!!!! DevonRex Jan 2014 #46
K&R'd! snot Jan 2014 #8
Fitrakis Is Pretty Reliable BodieTown Jan 2014 #10
He's started and sold several successful business and he didn't just disappear. Ellipsis Jan 2014 #14
These are... BodieTown Jan 2014 #27
After he was deposed by Arnebeck what more could he do? - It's out there on video... Ellipsis Jan 2014 #52
Too bad there is so much woo infused into the true story od the election rigging. Coyotl Jan 2014 #59
look at post # 53 questionseverything Jan 2014 #82
Bush never won an election for pres. ThomThom Jan 2014 #11
A person has to wonder about the media's role in all of this. truedelphi Jan 2014 #68
"unremarkable weather conditions" Major Nikon Jan 2014 #12
Obviously bad conditions for that airplane plus DevonRex Jan 2014 #17
Departing in the first place was a bad decision Major Nikon Jan 2014 #20
Absolutely. Departing in that plane was stupid. DevonRex Jan 2014 #40
He may have been distracted by the ice Major Nikon Jan 2014 #41
That's where we were. DevonRex Jan 2014 #44
And they will probably steal it again. zeemike Jan 2014 #15
You think the NSA has their meta-data? Ellipsis Jan 2014 #16
Never forget! lonestarnot Jan 2014 #18
I think they are getting more and more bold. nm rhett o rick Jan 2014 #19
They should be bold. Enthusiast Jan 2014 #21
Yes, I agree. nm rhett o rick Jan 2014 #25
Not "unremarkable weather conditions"... SidDithers Jan 2014 #22
the news coverup and then the NTSB always exaggerates weather in these political assassinations certainot Jan 2014 #34
The weather on the Wellstone and this crash were major contributing factors. mn9driver Jan 2014 #38
i saw reports at the time the weather was not that bad and though not ideal it was flyable and certainot Jan 2014 #55
This message was self-deleted by its author mn9driver Jan 2014 #67
Are you an instrument rated pilot? Major Nikon Jan 2014 #86
do i have to be a limnologist to know the lake stinks? certainot Jan 2014 #88
Knowing and providing evidence are two different things Major Nikon Jan 2014 #90
Uh HELLO! Weather in Minnesota was so unremarkable truedelphi Jan 2014 #60
Heh. Believe what you want. mn9driver Jan 2014 #66
i know the possibility might be disturbing certainot Jan 2014 #75
thanks for that. cheryl seal used to have a list of assassinations by plane on her certainot Jan 2014 #74
Thank you for the response and also all truedelphi Jan 2014 #84
Here are the facts Major Nikon Jan 2014 #87
embrace the woo, Sid. love the woo. become the woo. vaht? dionysus Jan 2014 #62
It's woo-riffic!!...nt SidDithers Jan 2014 #63
vaht? vas woo shaying shumthing, about woo, to meeee? dionysus Jan 2014 #64
You're not even using the word correctly. ronnie624 Jan 2014 #80
when people ignore facts or science to bolster a CT, it falls under the umbrella of woo-ery. dionysus Jan 2014 #83
You're mistaken. ronnie624 Jan 2014 #91
You would think one of the main objectives of the Democratic party octoberlib Jan 2014 #23
I also dont understand it. The most important issue facing our Democracy is free and fair voting. rhett o rick Jan 2014 #24
Vote by mail, no lines, paper trail, no ID bullshit. WHEN CRABS ROAR Jan 2014 #54
Why isnt the Democratic Party insisting on that? nm rhett o rick Jan 2014 #69
For vote-by-mail (opscan) to be accurate, there has to be a comparison of the optical scan count factsarenotfair Jan 2014 #76
there are other problems with questionseverything Jan 2014 #81
I totally agree with you. factsarenotfair Jan 2014 #85
And If You Had to... BodieTown Jan 2014 #28
No, they are concerned about participation. riqster Jan 2014 #29
I Will Stick with Collusion BodieTown Jan 2014 #32
You can if you wish. However, three facts to ponder: riqster Jan 2014 #36
Sadly, yes. FiveGoodMen Jan 2014 #33
BINGO. The same system that they rely on to maintain their seats. Vincardog Jan 2014 #35
Ignore what they say, watch what they do. Egalitarian Thug Jan 2014 #43
not all dems questionseverything Jan 2014 #57
Election fraud n/t brett_jv Jan 2014 #31
i do know locally and the national talk radio blowhards stress the cost of it, whether it's a legit certainot Jan 2014 #37
I worked that election in Ohio and no doubt Kerry won the state Botany Jan 2014 #26
And did anyone from the party answer any calls from anyone working that election? riqster Jan 2014 #30
I think Kerry was under pressure to concede .... they might have been blackmailing him ... Botany Jan 2014 #42
In every case save for election night, he was and is a warrior. riqster Jan 2014 #45
The Skulls & the Boners, eh what? Berlum Jan 2014 #49
There was no "Edwards Love Child" then and the problem was that there was no proof karynnj Jan 2014 #50
We had the proof Botany Jan 2014 #53
Thank you. riqster Jan 2014 #70
Those were screen captures from the Sec. of State's Web Site Botany Jan 2014 #71
I was in that foul belly as well. Spent hours on the phone trying to get somebody to listen. riqster Jan 2014 #72
you are right Botany Jan 2014 #73
hamilton and lucas just scream "something aint right" questionseverything Jan 2014 #79
wasn't the "love child" the result of Edwards 2008 campaign, not 2004? hedda_foil Jan 2014 #56
mark to return to rurallib Jan 2014 #39
Interesting Story but hueymahl Jan 2014 #47
Republicons do not do honor, it is clear Berlum Jan 2014 #48
Memories . . . . 2004, black box, Keith Olbermann talked about it, got swept away under the bridge SleeplessinSoCal Jan 2014 #51
V-e-r-y suspicious ailsagirl Jan 2014 #65
They killed Vince Foster! DemocraticWing Jan 2014 #89

Ellipsis

(9,124 posts)
1. Connell’s death was authorized since he was a “NST” – National Security Threat.
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 09:55 PM
Jan 2014

Never heard that before...

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
3. Authorized by whom? Who would have had the legal authority to authorize the death of an
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 11:19 PM
Jan 2014

American citizen who was not violent?

Ellipsis

(9,124 posts)
9. ...Out searching the google and found a couple hits that say he was not NST
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 11:49 PM
Jan 2014

This one's kinda hinky...

/snip/

WMR has obtained a letter and an after-action report sent by an anonymous source, who used the alias "Mark Felt," the FBI official who was allegedly the source "Deep Throat" during the Watergate scandal, to the FBI's supervisory special agent in Cleveland that explicitly states that Mike Connell, the Republican Party's information technology guru who helped engineer the delivery of Ohio's 20 electoral votes to the Bush-Cheney column in 2004, was targeted for assassination by a team that was tasked to eliminate an "NST" -- intelligence-speak for a "national security target." The after-action report, which is heavily redacted, states that an order was given by a party [redacted] to "neutralize" Connell as an NST. According to the accompanying letter, the author writes that the after-action report "is not supposed to exist." In addition to the FBI in Cleveland, the document was sent to five other parties.

/snip/

According to the after-action report, one of the saboteurs opened the Piper Saratoga's cowling, unlocked the door, and installed an AMD on the static port system. The author of the accompanying letter, dated August 31, 2009, to the FBI and the five other recipients wrote that "the AMD is designed to mimic existing aircraft components in order to thwart investigations." The author informs the FBI that "you may be able to find evidence of it (AMD) in the static port system." The author, in his letter, also specifically states that "Connell was not NST" (national security target). The fake return address on the letter's envelope, postmarked Washington, DC, also yields a few potential clues as to its source. The phony street address is "4007 Kohtraktop Rd." The street name may be a cipher for "contract op" with 4007 possibly meaning "for 007," a reference to a James Bond-style intelligence operation. The return address town is "McClean [sic], Virginia, a reference to the CIA's headquarters town, McLean, Virginia. The zip code is 20661. which is Mount Victoria in southern Maryland, which is across the Potomac River from the Naval Surface Warfare Center at Dahlgren, Virginia where one of the tenant activities is the Joint Warfare Analysis Center (JWAC), which helps develop electronic warfare weapons, including Meaconing, Intrusions, Jamming, Interference (MIJI) systems designed to confuse pilots.

/snip/

http://theinfounderground.com/smf/index.php?topic=9216.0

I'm going to PM Cliff and see if he shows up.

loudsue

(14,087 posts)
61. Poppy bush's fingerprints are all over that kind of authorization.
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 09:59 PM
Jan 2014

His people go deeper than hell in the CIA.

Cliff Arnebeck

(305 posts)
92. Madsen has it right
Mon Apr 14, 2014, 08:50 PM
Apr 2014

Wayne Madsen's analysis is first rate intelligence work. He is working from the material sent to us and the Cleveland FBI. The anonymous source put his own life at risk for divulging this.

pa28

(6,145 posts)
2. We know Rove's IT firm was handling results on election night when the results flipped.
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 11:10 PM
Jan 2014

It's not a stretch at all to suppose Ohio was stolen as the Bush campaign had the means motive and opportunity to do so. In fact I would be amazed if they did NOT tamper with the results.

It's still a stretch for me to believe Connell's crash was engineered. I've read the report and it sounds like every other accident scenario involving weather, darkness and small aircraft. I wish they would have linked to the redacted document Fitrakis referenced in the article.

Samantha

(9,314 posts)
6. 25 percent of the Ohio vote was dropped in the 2004 election
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 11:34 PM
Jan 2014

A lengthy investigation which took months to complete came up with this percentage. When those compiling the numbers announced their finding to the Governor, the question was asked, "Who wants to tell the American people 25 percent of the vote was dropped?" Silence followed.

Of course no one wanted to tell the American people this because nothing would change as a result. Once a president is inaugurated, the election cannot be undone. The only way a president can be removed from office is for Impeachment for High Crimes and/or Misdemeanors committed while serving his or her term(s) in office. A theft of the election would precede that.

I have no link to this article, but I can tell you where I read it. It was posted on a political website called DemocraticUnderground. I do remember the post was short and the article was attached via a link. Recalling all the incidents reported that election night, that number sounded about right to me.

George W. Bush* had told Karl Rove the important thing for him in this election was to win the popular vote. In order for that to happen, they had to carry Ohio. Rove made sure they did. That is my opinion.

Sam

 

Coyotl

(15,262 posts)
58. "We know" needs to be foillowed by something supportive.
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 09:02 PM
Jan 2014

That they followed election results is certain. How the election was counted is another story entirely. That happened BEFORE the numbers were turned in to the State of Ohio, at the County level with different methods in different counties. To steal Ohio 2004, you had to rig the county voting. This is old history now.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
77. Well, Peter King did tell us not to worry, 'because we count the votes'. And they do.
Fri Jan 10, 2014, 02:13 PM
Jan 2014

We don't need confirmation to have an opinion, do we? And imo, the very fact that voting machines are mostly in the hands of Republicans is an outrage in itself and certainly raises questions re King's statement 'how do they count the votes'?

Ellipsis

(9,124 posts)
13. To woo or not to woo
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 11:55 PM
Jan 2014


that is the question—
Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous woo,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of woo,
And by opposing end them? To die, to woo—
No more; and by a woo, to say we end
The Heart-ache, and the thousand Natural woos
That Flesh is heir to? 'Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wooed. To die, to ,
To sleep, perchance to woo; Aye, there's the rub,
For in that woo of death, what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal woo,
Must give us pause. There's the woo
That makes Calamity of so long life:
For who would bear the Whips and Scorns of woo,
The Oppressor's woo, the proud man's woo,
The pangs of despised woo, the Law’s woo,
The insolence of woo, and the Spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy woo,
When he himself might his Quietus make
woo a bare Bodkin? Who would Fardels woo,
To grunt and sweat under a weary woo,
But that the dread of woo after death,
The undiscovered woo, from whose bourn
No Traveler woos, Puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those woos we have,
Than fly to others that we woo not of.
Thus Conscience does make woos of us all,
And thus the Native woo of Resolution
Is sicklied o'er, with the pale cast of woo,
And enterprises of great woo and moment,
With this regard their Currents turn wooy,
And lose the name of Action. Woo you now,
The fair Ophelia? Nymph, in thy Orisons
Be all my woos remembered.

BodieTown

(147 posts)
10. Fitrakis Is Pretty Reliable
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 11:50 PM
Jan 2014
After Connell’s death, a redacted government document arrived by mail at the Free Press office addressed to Arnebeck stating that Connell’s death was authorized since he was a “NST” – National Security Threat.

You bet it was authorized. There are reams of documents available for reading, and at least one documentary has been made on the killing.

You can either believe in one fantastic coincidence after another, or not.

Curious to me is how Connell's friend, Spoonamore, simply disappeared almost entirely, and now runs what appears to be a successful and profitable business. Was he told to shut up in exchange for success? Or was party honor more important to him? I always felt he knew much more than he divulged, and the way he high-tailed it out of the public spotlight was disconcerting.

BodieTown

(147 posts)
27. These are...
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 03:17 PM
Jan 2014

...very old clips, but they're also important ones for people here to learn some alarming facts about the Connell death/killing and the circumstances leading up to it.

Spoonamore did leave the spotlight. I guess I can understand the long-term futility he might have felt over trying to bring justice to that puke, Rove. What I'll never understand is how Spoonamore could remain a republican, knowing what a filthy bunch of criminal s***-heads run his party and also fund it.

Ellipsis

(9,124 posts)
52. After he was deposed by Arnebeck what more could he do? - It's out there on video...
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 06:26 PM
Jan 2014

I couldn't find it.

He did his thing... he gets it. He just moved on.

 

Coyotl

(15,262 posts)
59. Too bad there is so much woo infused into the true story od the election rigging.
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 09:23 PM
Jan 2014

Everyone is following the woo and looking away from what happened in the counties in Ohio, where the votes were switched, then counted and reported to the state. Interjecting Tennessee after those facts is just part of the cover-up.

questionseverything

(9,656 posts)
82. look at post # 53
Fri Jan 10, 2014, 04:35 PM
Jan 2014

botony's screen shot should help you understand...yes false county results were reported but those were placeholder results,then everything is switched to the "mirror" site in tenn and sent back to sos web site announcing bush as the pre determined winner

ThomThom

(1,486 posts)
11. Bush never won an election for pres.
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 11:51 PM
Jan 2014

he is the biggest cheater ever
this country did not want or deserve W
so sad
look what he did

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
68. A person has to wonder about the media's role in all of this.
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 11:52 PM
Jan 2014

Before 3:30 Am the morning after the 2004 election, Andy Card, W's Chief of Staff, announced to the networks that George W had won, without any corroboration needed! And even though the state of Ohio still held over 200,000 uncounted ballots !

Anyway, welcome to DU.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
12. "unremarkable weather conditions"
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 11:54 PM
Jan 2014
The briefer asked: “Would you like a standard briefing and just cover everything or you need to just to kind a hit the highlights ?” The caller replied: “ …I don't want to waste your time. Let's figure out if this sounds like a suicide mission or not, and then we'll go from there.”

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20081223X12815&ntsbno=CEN09FA099&akey=1

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
20. Departing in the first place was a bad decision
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 03:07 AM
Jan 2014

The forecast called for light freezing drizzle at 1800 and the crash was at 1753. The aircraft that arrived both before and after reported significant icing conditions. The probably cause fits the factual information.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
The pilot’s inappropriate control inputs as a result of spatial disorientation, which led to an aerodynamic stall and loss of control.
Contributing to the accident were the pilot's decision to conduct flight into known icing conditions, ice accumulation that reduced the airplane's aerodynamic performance, and the pilot's failure to initially intercept and establish the airplane on the proper approach course.

DevonRex

(22,541 posts)
40. Absolutely. Departing in that plane was stupid.
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 04:36 PM
Jan 2014

Departing with conditions changing so rapidly in exactly the direction he was flying was unforgivable.

And somehow making a bad decision on approach, knowing the icing danger, is just incomprehensible. At that point you just put the wheels on the ground on any flat airport land.

I am not a pilot. My father was. He flew a Cessna. Hard to imagine it coming in too fast, too high, too anything to prevent him from putting it on the ground somewhere at an airport if he thought he only had one chance to do it. And ice would certainly be that circumstance.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
41. He may have been distracted by the ice
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 04:50 PM
Jan 2014

Ice buildup causes a number of problems with planes not equipped for flight into known icing. Your windscreen frosts over and the defroster in small planes like his generally only give you a small porthole to see out, so he likely would have been fiddling with that to turn it on. His pitot tube may have iced up if he didn't turn the heater on so he may have not been getting good airspeed indications, if any at all. With freezing drizzle, it's likely the ice built up fast which would have created all sorts of aerodynamic issues for him. Now throw in a missed approach which creates its own problems even in the best of circumstances.

I've been in icing conditions before and it's bad news in these types of planes. I avoid anything that I even think will put me in icing conditions. He flew right into them knowing beforehand that the conditions were favorable for icing. Unfortunately a lot of pilots do exactly what he did and get into a lot of trouble really quickly. A lot of pilots up north simply mothball their planes for the winter for good reason. Here in Texas I can fly all year long, but cold weather + precipitation means I don't go. When you don't fly for a living there's just no good reason to take these kind of chances, if even then.

DevonRex

(22,541 posts)
44. That's where we were.
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 05:21 PM
Jan 2014

After my father left the Marines we lived in Texas. He had been a fighter pilot in WW2 & Korea. And a crop duster in between. Yeah, he didn't fly when the Northers came in. He had a healthy respect for physics.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
15. And they will probably steal it again.
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 12:17 AM
Jan 2014

It is a system that is easy to rig and we all know it...but they hold the CT over our head to keep it from being talked about.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
21. They should be bold.
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 08:37 AM
Jan 2014

They have a media that will repeat anything they want for days on end. They can get away with anything and they have.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
22. Not "unremarkable weather conditions"...
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 08:45 AM
Jan 2014
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20081223X12815&key=1

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:

The pilot’s inappropriate control inputs as a result of spatial disorientation, which led to an aerodynamic stall and loss of control. Contributing to the accident were the pilot's decision to conduct flight into known icing conditions, ice accumulation that reduced the airplane's aerodynamic performance, and the pilot's failure to initially intercept and establish the airplane on the proper approach course.


Holy shit!! The BFEE can control the weather!!1!1!

Sid
 

certainot

(9,090 posts)
34. the news coverup and then the NTSB always exaggerates weather in these political assassinations
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 03:55 PM
Jan 2014

by plane- it's easy

same with wellstone and samantha smith- that one of the reasons planes work so well

go back to the news around the time and look at the unremarkability of that winter weather

mn9driver

(4,426 posts)
38. The weather on the Wellstone and this crash were major contributing factors.
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 04:30 PM
Jan 2014

I fly for a living and in both cases I looked very closely at the weather conditions immediately after those accidents. It was not good.

In the Wellstone crash, they were on a non precision approach and the weather was below the required minimum visibility for that approach.

In this case there was icing all over the area. A Saratoga doesn't have the equipment to handle that. It crashed.

Not a surprise. Not a conspiracy. The weather reports are exactly the way they were at the time these crashes happened. I know. I checked. I remember. I knew Paul. He is buried two blocks from my house. He would laugh his ass off at some of the claims being made about his death.

 

certainot

(9,090 posts)
55. i saw reports at the time the weather was not that bad and though not ideal it was flyable and
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 08:57 PM
Jan 2014

planes do it all the time.

the MSM immediately blamed bad weather for wellstones crash, as they did the samantha smith crash.

if you want to see an eg of what i'm talking about look at the short version of the NTSB report on the samantha smith crash and the flying mag review of it the crash later by J Mac McClellan’s review of the plane crash (Flying magazine May, 1987, titled “East-West
Misunderstanding” (a political reference?)). He writes, “What could
possibly have caused this crew to become so confused on what should
have been a simple IFR approach?” and “Despite comprehensive study,
the NTSB could not determine what went wrong.” “The reconstruction
of the flight path reveals a course so erratic it hardly qualifies as
unstable” and “So all we know is that this crew flew one of the worst ILS
approaches ever documented, but we don’t have a single hint as to why.” it was also blamed on weather when it happened.

it's irrelevant that kennedy might believe it was a lone gunman

Response to certainot (Reply #55)

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
86. Are you an instrument rated pilot?
Fri Jan 10, 2014, 05:01 PM
Jan 2014

Your reference seems to come from here:
http://engforum.pravda.ru/index.php?/topic/7702-usc-read-this/

So basically you're referencing someone else referencing an article that unless someone has an old 1987 edition of flying mag laying around, we can't even reference in its entirety. However, with what you do reference, two glaring errors are readily apparent. One is that the crew wasn't on an ILS approach at all. They were on a VOR approach. Furthermore the NTSB not only had a hint, they listed a probable cause which fit all the available evidence:

The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the flight crew's failure to maintain adequate airspeed, which led to an aerodynamic stall from which they did not recover.
 

certainot

(9,090 posts)
88. do i have to be a limnologist to know the lake stinks?
Fri Jan 10, 2014, 07:06 PM
Jan 2014

most people get disturbed about these possibilities but it really shouldn't be hard to consider the possibility.

mac mclellan's still around, maybe he can tell you why he wrote that. i have a copy somewhere but can't find it at the moment. and i don't think it's on the internet- i saw it in a library long time ago. if you're really interested i'll look for it.

if you are an instrument rated pilot below is a link to the NTSB report - have fun

they don't have it on their site anymore (just trying to save space, right?) but here's a link to it: http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/ntsb/aircraft-accident-reports/AAR86-06.pdf if you have any input on it i'd be interested to hear but if it takes a while you might have to respond to a later comment....

Bar Harbor Airlines Flight 1808 Beech BE-99, N300WP Auburn-Lewiston Municipal Airport 08/25/1985 09/30/1986 Auburn ME AAR-86-06 PB86-910408

smith was the anti-reagan, threatening millions in PR work selling trillion dollar star wars, mx missile bullshit, etc.

the movie "amazing grace and chuck" with gregory peck as president i believe was loosely based on the her story.

nikolas daniloff, a journalist who the east germans accused of spying who was traded for in a spy swap called her a soviet pawn. charles krauthammer generously conceded she wasn’t really a “communist dupe” (new republic, feb. 13, 1984). labels like that in those central american countries reagan referred to as freedom fighting democracies would have got her disappeared- and those asssholes knew it.

both altimeters were found with innacurate settings. the NTSB couldn’t figure out how this happened. and if the captain’s altimeter was set as found at the time the plane struck trees at the initial impact elevation of 345 feet, it would have been indicating an altitude anywhere from 480 to 544 feet.

apparently the plane drifted as much as 2 miles off course on a 100 mile trip. approach speeds and rates and of descent were very erratic.

considering the NTSB determined that an unstabilized approach was to blame (what caused the unstable approach?), it seems interesting that the no. 1 navigation/communication transceiver was replaced the day before the accident.

the report mentions NAV/COM and altimeter problems as possible sources of error contributing to an unstable approach.

here’s a quote I found on the internet:


"I have a friend who just got back from the Soviet Union, and told me
the people there are hungry for information about the West. He was
asked about many things, but I will give you two examples that are
very revealing about life in the Soviet Union. The first question he
was asked was if we had exploding television sets. You see, they
have a problem with the picture tubes on color television sets, and
many are exploding. They assumed we must be having problems with
them too. The other question he was asked often was why the CIA had
killed Samantha Smith, the little girl who visited the Soviet Union a
few years ago; their propaganda is very effective. Victor Belenko,
MiG-25 fighter pilot who defected in 1976 "Defense Electronics", Vol
20, No. 6, pg. 100




re wellstone:

By: Jackson Thoreau - 12/30/03


I'm for the little fellers, not the Rockefellers. - Sen. Paul Wellstone


Shortly before he died in a mysterious airplane crash 11 days prior to the 2002 elections, Minnesota Sen. Paul Wellstone met with Vice President Dick Cheney, probably the Bush administration's most evil public face. 

Cheney was rounding up Senate support for the October 2002 vote on giving the administration carte blanche to invade Iraq, with or without blessing from the United Nations. Cheney strong-armed opposing politicians like the most vindictive of mafioso leaders, and opponents usually gave in. 

But not Wellstone. Whatever you thought of his progressive brand of politics, he wasn't a wimp. And that's what made him more than dangerous in the eyes of people like Cheney. 

At a meeting full of war veterans in Willmar, Minn., days before his death, Wellstone told attendees that Cheney told him, "If you vote against the war in Iraq, the Bush administration will do whatever is necessary to get you. There will be severe ramifications for you and the state of Minnesota." 

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
90. Knowing and providing evidence are two different things
Fri Jan 10, 2014, 07:50 PM
Jan 2014

You claimed the Wellstone plane approach was "flyable" and I suspect you don't know what that means.

Here's another statement that demonstrates you have little knowledge of aviation and navigation:

"apparently the plane drifted as much as 2 miles off course on a 100 mile trip."

Well within tolerance for VOR navigation.

It's not uncommon for a VOR to be off 1 degree or more. There's also a 1 degree tolerance for the aircraft's navigation receiver. 2 degrees @ 50 miles = 2.29 miles. Airways are at least 4nm to each side of centerline or 8nm wide. 2nm off course is of no consequence.

"both altimeters were found with innacurate settings. the NTSB couldn’t figure out how this happened."

Because the settings are set by the pilots. Since both pilots died in the crash, they couldn't question them as to why.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
60. Uh HELLO! Weather in Minnesota was so unremarkable
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 09:47 PM
Jan 2014

At the time Wellstone's plane went down that the Eveleth MN airfield manager took to his own small plane into the air to scope out where Wellstone's plane might have gone.

And in fact,a local woman reporter was standing out in the Eveleth airfield telling her audience that "the Weather had not played a part."

Then good ol' Johnny on the spot, Wolf Blitzer came running out and grabbed the mike out of the woman reporter's hands, to tell the nation that "The weather was a factor."

But light drizzle and a 38 degree temperature were not abnormal for Midwestern pilots. Wellstone's plane was equipped in such a way that two pilots, not just one pilot, were able to be in control of the plane at all times. Those two pilots were aboard, and were doing a-okay juist a moment before the plane crashed.

Officially the NTSB blames those pilots for the crash. But even if pilot error, the pilots had a modern plane, with totally modern communication abilities. Why were there no last words from the pilot to the Tower? (Even expletives?)

Citation for the NTSB ruling: usgovinfo.about.com/cs/uscongress/a/wellstonentsb.htm?

An extremely experienced pilot I knew said after reviewing teh crash details supplied to me by the NTSB, "This plane burned far too long to be considered normal."

Ted Kennedy was supposed to be on the plane, but cancelled at the last moment.

FBI agents were able to get there in record time, almost as if they were already planning to be in Eveleth that day.

Since pilots had talked to air tower prior to crash, what explains loss of communication? Flock of birds doesn't. No one on the ground heard or saw thunder and lightning. (Planes can tolerate lightning; that happens to planes quite frequently.)

But one resident of Eveleth claimed that his garage door had acted peculiarly around the time of the crash.

It had been in the news that police departments were thinking in the near future equipment would be available to them, such that they could zap an offender's car with microwave burst, and stall out car's electronics and engine. And such equipment became common three or four years after Wellstone's death. It wouldn't surprise me if one of our alphabet agencies had such a gizmo, as it explains everything perfectly.

Anyway, the Republicans' numbers were down in the Senate and with Wellstone's death right before his would be re-election, they were able to put his opponent into office.

On edit: Interesting article by Jackson Thoreau over at OpEd:

http://www.opednews.com/thoreau1203_wellstone_assassinated.htm





mn9driver

(4,426 posts)
66. Heh. Believe what you want.
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 11:20 PM
Jan 2014

The great thing about the internet for conspiracy buffs is they can always find sites to feed their need.

The NTSB report contains a great deal of information:

-The ceiling and visibility were varying from slightly above to slightly below the minimums for the approach.
-The airspeed of the aircraft was normal while it descended, then decreased steadily when the plane leveled off at the minimum altitude until it disappeared from radar at about 75 knots (much too slow for safe flight).
-The airplane fell very steeply, only traveling 130 feet from where it hit the trees to where it hit the ground.
-Both engines were operating normally at the time of impact.

These are facts. The pilots leveled off, didn't increase power while they were distracted trying to see the runway through the snow showers and the cloud bases, the airplane slowed, stalled, fell and crashed. That's what happened. The EMP conspiracy fantasy is pure woo.

 

certainot

(9,090 posts)
74. thanks for that. cheryl seal used to have a list of assassinations by plane on her
Fri Jan 10, 2014, 01:55 PM
Jan 2014

website unknownnews but it and she and her site seem to have disappeared- that domain taken over and the web pages associated with it replaced. can't find much but below is the text of something i found and if you go to the link at the bottom re-wellstone assassination it's been redirected.

the samantha smith NTSB report short version was a great read.

seal had a reference to the german aviation head rejecting the main US-made NAV COM for passenger planes because it allowed remote control.


Cheryl Seal
Bush Most Anti-Child President in History
Sat Sep 10, 2005 15:11
64.12.116.199


Bush's naming of the anti-child John Roberts for the Supreme Court's top job is just one one example of this pResident's flagrant lack of compassion and concern for American children - and for children in general, for that matter.

HERE's JUST A FEW EXAMPLES OF BUSH THE ANTI-CHILD

- In New Orleans, Bush left thousands of children to starve and drown while he played guitar to pals at his phony ranch.

-- Bush poured billions into drug companies to develop exotic, super-expensive "anti-terrorism" drug/vaccine research
(death toll from bioterrorist pathogens in US so far: 6)

Meanwhile, research into childhood diseases and development of new antibiotics for common killers like drug-resistant staph and strep have all but been abandoned. The situation is so bad that editorials in leading science and medical journals have called it a crisis.
(Death toll from drug-resistant infections: at least 200,000 in US EACH YEAR).
http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/14/blood.infection.ap/

-- Under Bush, the number of children living in poverty and suffering from homelessness and poor medical care has risen to historic heights - 1 in 5 US children now live in poverty. Yet Bush wants to cut what little these kids still get:

Bush's 2006 budget plan calls for a staggering $788 million to be cut from the budget of Health & Human Services - while he continues to spend more than that in just ONE WEEK in Iraq.

-Thanks in large part to Bush's anti-clean air policies (he refuses to hold polluters accountable - the number of cases of pollution prosecuted by the EPA is at a near-all-time low), the number of childhood asthma cases has skyrocketed. Instead of giving a damn, the Bush Reich simply created a new class of spinners to make HIM look like a "victim" (those nasty environmentalists, how could they blame him for poisoning our air and children?) Case in point: the front group calling itself BushGreenWatch

State of the Union (Dirty Air under Bush)
http://www.publicampaign.org/publications/sotu/sourcing03.htm



- Thanks to Bush, the US was one of the only nations (and the ONLY "advanced western nation&quot not to sigh the Convention on the Rights of the Child, an international action to protect children around the world from horrors such slavery, child soldiery, abandonment during war and catastrophes.

Bush and his cohorts intentionally spread false rumors about the Convention as an excuse not to sign. The real reason he didn't want to sign? He would be forced to be far more accountable for children in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other nations where US corporate-political despotism is causing misery to children.

The proof: The access of children in Iraq and Afghanistan to medical help, clean water, and sufficient food has DECREASED since Bush invaded.

"Let them Eat Bombs" (Guardian)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1457630,00.html


Here's a letter from Paul Wellstone (the senator who was, I believe, murdered by Bush operatives) on the Convention.

http://pangaea.org/street_children/world/letter.htm

For more on Wellstone's suspicious death, see:

"The Murder of Paul Wellstone"
http://www.unknownnews.net/cdd1030.html


"The People's Investigation of Paul Wellstone's Death"
http://www.unknownnews.net/cdd1120.html

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
84. Thank you for the response and also all
Fri Jan 10, 2014, 04:42 PM
Jan 2014

The links.

What a shame that the unknown news site is not up and working right now.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
87. Here are the facts
Fri Jan 10, 2014, 05:19 PM
Jan 2014

The crash happened on or about 10:22 am local time. The AWOS records the weather every 20 minutes.

Here's the report for 10:12:

"visibility was 3 statute miles in light snow and that the sky condition was scattered clouds at 400 feet and overcast at 700 feet."


Here's the report for 10:34:

"visibility was 4 statute miles in mist and that the sky condition was overcast at 400 feet. Both AWOS reports indicated calm winds and temperatures of 1 C."

https://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2003/AAR0303.pdf

The minimums for the approach was 400'. So at the time of the accident there was a scattered layer at minimums which eventually turned into an overcast layer. The claim that the weather was unremarkable demonstrates a lack of knowledge of either the actual conditions at the time of the crash or aviation weather, or both.

dionysus

(26,467 posts)
64. vaht? vas woo shaying shumthing, about woo, to meeee?
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 10:17 PM
Jan 2014

vaht? there's no one else in the woom so you must be having some form of conversation vith meee.... vaht?

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
80. You're not even using the word correctly.
Fri Jan 10, 2014, 03:05 PM
Jan 2014

'Woo' refers specifically to pseudoscience, not conspiracy theories. People who simply dismiss conspiracy theories as 'woo', are too lazy to address the facts of the issue.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
91. You're mistaken.
Sat Jan 11, 2014, 02:01 AM
Jan 2014
Woo is a term used among skeptical writers to describe pseudoscientific explanations that have certain common characteristics.

The term comes from woo-woo, an epithet used in the 1990s by science and skeptical writers to ridicule people who believe or promote such things. This is in turn believed to have come from the onomatopoeia "woooooo!" as a reaction to dimmed lights or magic tricks. The term implies a lack of either intelligence or sincerity on the part of the person or concepts so described.

[center]*******[/center]
Despite the terrible name, it has become quite a popular term. Woo is sometimes synonymous with bullshit, though there are differences. Bullshit is generally just a lie pulled out of wherever, about whatever. Woo is understood specifically as pseudoscience, uses a science-like formula, and attempts to place itself as scientifically, or at least reasonably, supported.


http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Woo


Despite the derogatory use of the term, conspiracy theories are sometimes proven correct, such as the theory that United States President Richard Nixon and his aides conspired to cover up Watergate,[6][7] or the theory that government surveillance projects were used to track a large percentage of the world's telephony and Internet traffic.

Katherine K. Young states, "the fact remains, however, that not all conspiracies are imagined by paranoids. Historians show that every real conspiracy has had at least four characteristic features: groups, not isolated individuals; illegal or sinister aims, not ones that would benefit society as a whole; orchestrated acts, not a series of spontaneous and haphazard ones; and secret planning, not public discussion". Above all else a real conspiracy is evidenced by provable facts.[16]

"Some historians have put forward the idea that more recently the United States has become the home of conspiracy theories because so many high-level prominent conspiracies have been undertaken and uncovered since the 1960s".[17] The existence of such real conspiracies helps feed the belief in conspiracy theories.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory#Proven_conspiracies

As I said, people who dismiss conspiracy theories as woo, are just lazy.

octoberlib

(14,971 posts)
23. You would think one of the main objectives of the Democratic party
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 08:50 AM
Jan 2014

would be to pass legislation requiring all voting machines to leave a paper trail( at least for national elections). They seem really uninterested in addressing voter fraud.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
24. I also dont understand it. The most important issue facing our Democracy is free and fair voting.
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 10:35 AM
Jan 2014

Without it, every thing else that is accomplished can be quickly undone by an illegally elected Congress and President. But for some reason, the Democratic Party Machine isnt worried.

factsarenotfair

(910 posts)
76. For vote-by-mail (opscan) to be accurate, there has to be a comparison of the optical scan count
Fri Jan 10, 2014, 02:08 PM
Jan 2014

versus a manual count. A sampling of precincts will do. BUT, if the paper ballots are only counted by machine, that is no better than a voting machine with no paper trail.

questionseverything

(9,656 posts)
81. there are other problems with
Fri Jan 10, 2014, 04:28 PM
Jan 2014

mail in ballots,especially with the electronic poll books

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=9291

According to a report today from Sacramento ABC affiliate News10 [see video posted below], a private, for-profit firm calling itself Momentum Political Services, hired by the local Republican Party "to boost GOP registration ranks in key battleground communities" has turned in more than 3,100 invalid voter registration cards during their recent drive.

////////////////////////////////

we have simply got to take the time to vote with pen and paper and count our votes OURSELVES.....all in an open,transparent way

BodieTown

(147 posts)
28. And If You Had to...
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 03:25 PM
Jan 2014

...come up with a sane explanation as to why the democrats DO NOT consider election fraud to be important, one word comes to mind:

Collusion.

riqster

(13,986 posts)
29. No, they are concerned about participation.
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 03:31 PM
Jan 2014

Casting doubt on the integrity of elections hurts turnout. And Dems need turnout.

BodieTown

(147 posts)
32. I Will Stick with Collusion
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 03:43 PM
Jan 2014

The integrity of US elections was tossed out the window when the SCOTUS appointed a president and then turned around and declared legal entities (corporation) to be "persons".

riqster

(13,986 posts)
36. You can if you wish. However, three facts to ponder:
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 03:58 PM
Jan 2014

Number A: all of the major US election industry concerns are owned by Repubes.

Letter 2: the Repubes want lower turnout, and have done since their inception. So destroying confidence in our elections is a net positive for them.

Thirdly: the Dems want greater turnout and an expanded franchise, and have done since their inception. So destroying confidence in our elections is a huge negative for them.

Don't buy the false equivalence, they are all alike meme in this case; actual facts and self-interest provide different motivations to the different parties.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
43. Ignore what they say, watch what they do.
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 05:14 PM
Jan 2014

How many times do we have to see the Democratic Party come to the rescue and resurrect the republican party before we start asking why?

questionseverything

(9,656 posts)
57. not all dems
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 09:00 PM
Jan 2014
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=1085

Congressman John Conyers (D-MI) has announced in a letter released today that he will officially object to the Ohio Electors when a joint session of Congress convenes on January 6th to either ratify --- or set-aside, as the case may be --- the official results of the Electoral College.

In his letter, Conyers, who has been leading the Minority effort in the U.S. House Judiciary Committee to investigate the hundreds of reports of Election Irregularities, Supression of Voters, and possible Recount Malfeasance, states "I and a number of House Members are planning to object to the counting of the Ohio votes, due to numerous unexplained irregularities in the Ohio presidential vote, many of which appear to violate both federal and state law."

////////////////////////////////////////////

christine jennings tried to fight it when over 16,000 votes went missing in her race in florida but there was nothing to count,no paper trail at all,,,,,,one good thing came out of it tho,,,,,,the law was changed to get rid of those touchscreens (except for the disabled)

//////////////////////////////////

http://www.bradblog.com/?page_id=8954

A formal challenge to the announced results of South Carolina's Democratic primary for the U.S. Senate has now been filed by Judge Vic Rawl, the candidate who wasn't announced the winner by the state's oft-failed, easily-manipulated, 100% unverifiable ES&S e-voting system.

Rawl released an official statement on his website today, in conjunction with the filing and a press conference he held in Charleston this afternoon.

The statement points generally to a number of findings being made by the campaign as independent experts have analyzed the results, voting patterns and problems being reported by poll workers and voters on Election Day where the unknown, unemployed candidate Alvin Greene defeated Rawl on the unverifiable ES&S iVotronic touch-screen voting systems, performing 11 points better on those machines than he did in the paper-based absentee results. The oft-failed, easily-manipulated ES&S election results reporting system gave Greene a 59% to 41% "victory" over Rawl.

Greene did no campaigning, had no name recognition, had no campaign website, faces felony obscenity charges and managed, somehow, according to the electronic results, to best Rawl, a four-term state legislator to win the nomination to face incumbent Republican U.S. Sen. Jim DeMint in this November's general election.
/////////////////////////////////////

and dennis k paid for a partial recount in the new hampshire primary,,,,trying to get at the truth

//////////////////////////

these are just a few off the top of my head
 

certainot

(9,090 posts)
37. i do know locally and the national talk radio blowhards stress the cost of it, whether it's a legit
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 04:02 PM
Jan 2014

issue or not, and it isn't compared to the legitimacy of the vote, the same RW radio megaphone that's been selling the pretexts for voter ID for ALEC (while being ignored by the left), has many millions of near-captive talk radio listeners also known as the tea party talk radio base who would see any move to do that as a power move by obama to steal elections! no bullshit. there will be NO major reform until the left gets serious and fixes the talk radio advantage the right has.

Botany

(70,520 posts)
26. I worked that election in Ohio and no doubt Kerry won the state
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 02:39 PM
Jan 2014

Last edited Thu Jan 9, 2014, 05:04 PM - Edit history (1)

You can see one of the "things" that happened if you look @ the results for 2004
@ the Ohio's Sec. of State's web site .... in 17 counties an unknown. underfunded,
black, liberal, women, from Cleveland running for the Supreme Court got more
votes then John Kerry ..... you can take that # of votes and add them to Kerry's
total # and take that many of votes and take them away from w's total #.

Karen Hughes @ about 5:30 PM went and told w that he lost the election and
w just laughed.

I still wake up in the middle of the night about that "election."

riqster

(13,986 posts)
30. And did anyone from the party answer any calls from anyone working that election?
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 03:34 PM
Jan 2014

Hell no, that idiot wimp conceded while I was still trying to reach somebody, anybody, to tell them that something stunk.

Hell yeah, it was stolen.

Botany

(70,520 posts)
42. I think Kerry was under pressure to concede .... they might have been blackmailing him ...
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 05:08 PM
Jan 2014

.... about John Edwards "love child."

BTW John Kerry is no idiot wimp .... a bronze star, a silver star, and three
purple hearts should put that lie to rest.

riqster

(13,986 posts)
45. In every case save for election night, he was and is a warrior.
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 05:24 PM
Jan 2014

On that night, he let us all down.

Praising him for the good things he has done is not incompatible with criticising him when he screws the pooch.

We knew the theft was going down, and he and his staff never listened. Heartbreaking.

karynnj

(59,504 posts)
50. There was no "Edwards Love Child" then and the problem was that there was no proof
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 06:05 PM
Jan 2014

Cam Kerry put out a very detailed statement about a month after the election - detailing much of the voter suppression, but concluding that they could not prove that JK got the majority of votes cast. With no proof, they could not contest the results.

In 2008, Cam Kerry was the lead lawyer in Ohio for Obama -- and by then there was a Democratic SoS and Governor.

Agree 100% that no one here has the merit to call JK a wimp or an idiot. I regret that he was a candidate of a lifetime in my opinion - a man, of great integrity, morality and honor in addition to be a very skilled, talented man. I am proud he is our Secretary of State.

riqster

(13,986 posts)
70. Thank you.
Fri Jan 10, 2014, 09:55 AM
Jan 2014

The "we couldn't have proven it" meme started on Election night. It was bullshit then, and it remains bullshit to this day.

Botany

(70,520 posts)
71. Those were screen captures from the Sec. of State's Web Site
Fri Jan 10, 2014, 10:04 AM
Jan 2014

Connell was using a third party candidate's vote total as a "holding place"
for Kerry votes so later on he could manipulate the total vote count in
Ohio as needed. Or at least that is what I think.

I saw "it" with my own eyes and heard "it" with my own ears and I was in the
belly of the beast too.

J. Kerry is a damn good man but to this day I don't know why he didn't fight
in Ohio 2004.

riqster

(13,986 posts)
72. I was in that foul belly as well. Spent hours on the phone trying to get somebody to listen.
Fri Jan 10, 2014, 10:09 AM
Jan 2014

The party, the campaign, nobody would listen. It was almost as if a decision had already been made to throw the race.

Kerry is a good man, but fuck him and his for not at least trying to win.

Botany

(70,520 posts)
73. you are right
Fri Jan 10, 2014, 11:06 AM
Jan 2014

The decision had been made earlier to shut it down.

I will always think that "they" had something on Kerry to make him back off
from fighting the results of 2004 .... we had tons of proof in OH but it wasn't
just in OH but nationwide.

BTW One good thing that came out of the 2004 election theft was much longer early
voting times ...... the republicans are very very good about f**ing up 1 day of voting
aka election day but if you have 6 weeks of early voting they are S.O.L. and that is
one reason why they want to cut down early voting.

questionseverything

(9,656 posts)
79. hamilton and lucas just scream "something aint right"
Fri Jan 10, 2014, 02:49 PM
Jan 2014

richard hayes phillips wrote a book after he detailed irregularities.....is your screen shot in there?

you are correct about ohio in 04 ,and they still do it

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7875

Exclusive: Impossible Election Results in Monroe County, Arkansas, Puzzle State, Local Officials


1000s of votes inexplicably disappear after 'Super-ish Tuesday' election, as county plans expanded use of oft-failed, 100% unverifiable ES&S touch-screen voting systems for upcoming primary run-off…

//////////////////

i like catching the numbers moving ...some gain,some go backwards....and if you look at the numbers at that bradblog link you will see the third "lesser" candidate has a lot of "reported" support (holding place)

////////////////////////////

my own dem candidate lost the congressional district here in downstate illinois in part because a third party candidate w/o a campaign supposedly pulled 7% of the vote (according to the spanish company soe that reports the vote)

/////////////////////////////////////////////////

hedda_foil

(16,375 posts)
56. wasn't the "love child" the result of Edwards 2008 campaign, not 2004?
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 08:58 PM
Jan 2014

In any case, Edwards was one of those who advised Kerry to concede? Theresa told friends I spoke with at the time that she was convinced the election was stolen and she tried for weeks afterward to get him to support a recount. He refused. That's why we had to get David Cobb (the Green candidate in 2004) and the Libertarian candidate to file for a recount.

SleeplessinSoCal

(9,123 posts)
51. Memories . . . . 2004, black box, Keith Olbermann talked about it, got swept away under the bridge
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 06:10 PM
Jan 2014

like so many other nightmarish reports that we've encountered since the year 2000.

It was being investigated by diehards: http://harpers.org/blog/2008/12/a-troubling-black-box-death/

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