General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsJustice denied: Obama must defend killing citizens without a trial
The position of the Obama administration, as articulated by Attorney General Eric Holder, on killing Americans who may be a threat to the country without trial or any other semblance of due process is astonishing.
Mr. Holder, in a speech on Monday at Northwestern University, said government has the authority to kill a "U.S. citizen terrorist who presents an imminent threat of violent attack" and cannot be captured. The added fact that the administration has yet to make public its legal argument to justify this position adds insult to injury in terms of accountability to Americans.
The argument that the 9/11 attack justified a partial dismantling of the system of justice because the nation was plunged into an undefinable war on terrorism may have held water in the early, angry days after the 2001 deaths. But now, more than a decade later, the United States is governed by President Barack Obama, who taught courses in constitutional law and should know better.
Instead, his administration executed two U.S. citizens, Anwar al-Awlaki and his son, Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, 16, in Yemen with drones last fall and without benefit of charges, a trial, defense counsel, a guilty verdict and appropriate sentence. There is certainly an argument that the Awlakis were evildoers and represented a threat to the safety and well-being of Americans. For that reason, the Post-Gazette was sympathetic to the administration's aggressive actions last year.
Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/opinion/editorials/justice-denied-obama-must-defend-killing-citizens-without-a-trial-317970/
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.
Glad to see the Post-Gazette re-thinking its prior position. Summary execution isn't supposed to be the way we do things in the United States. Secretary of State Clinton, decrying the recent massacre in Afghanistan by one of our own, made the fatuous statement "That's not who we are." Really, Ms. Clinton? What about the sudden execution of people is "not who we are"?
It's a lot easier to start this kind of shit than it is to stop it, and I don't think the United States has the political will to do it anymore. The moral lilliputians running our government nowadays equate the due process of law with being "soft" on crime, or terrorist activity, or whatever this month's boogey man is.
kenny blankenship
(15,689 posts)gratuitous
(82,849 posts)So we're treated to preposterous scenarios and all the "what ifs": What if those awful, awful people don't turn themselves in to the people who want to summarily execute them? They're practically fleeing felons (who've never been charged, never arrested, and have no indication they've been marked for death)! What if there were Nazis? And frogmen off the coast? And Nazi frogmen? Would you shitcan the Constitution then? Huh? Huh? Huh? What about that?
No. No, I'm not willing to sacrifice the Constitution because some people are wet-their-pants scared. Despite the rhetoric of tyrants ("My job is to protect the people!" we keep hearing, our elected officials are supposed to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution, not the American people. Without the Constitution, there is no United States. And without our constitutional system of due process and judicial review, our system isn't the United States, even if it retains some of the accoutrements of our former democracy.
surfdog
(624 posts)To kill somebody that's a threat to our nation when they can't be captured ?
The answer is yes
Now tell me why a local police officer has more authority than the president of United States of America
RC
(25,592 posts)And Congress has not declared war on that/those countries.
quaker bill
(8,224 posts)And the other bit, killing the rest of them was apparently less of a problem, because they weren't citizens.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)There are review boards which are supposed to determine whether the killing was justifiable or not, iow, whether the individual was actually a threat to the PO. If not then that PO will suffer consequences for his or her actions. And no PO is in a position to pre-determine guilt and punishment or to administer the death penalty based on his or her own interpretation of the actions of a suspect. The only time a PO can kill someone is if there is an imminent threat to him or her or to members of the public.
Why do you think the Founders thought it was necessary that no one branch of the Government have more power than another? Why was it never okay for a POTUS to have to power of a judge, jury and executioner?
quaker bill
(8,224 posts)but it doesn't cure the dead. BTW in FL we have a "fleeing felon" law that allows lethal force to be used in absence of an immediate threat, as long as the felon is fleeing and does not stop when ordered. There have been 4 local deaths during law enforcement activity over the last week. The police involved will all be cleared and some might even get a citation.
surfdog
(624 posts)That the police have the authority to kill somebody without due process
Thanks for making my point
indykatie1955
(63 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)or Pro-Constitution?
When those seeking to protect the limitations imposed on our government by the Constitution
are labeled as "Anti-Obama",
we have a REAL problem.
I opposed the extra-Constitution power grab by a Unitary Executive Branch when Bush started it.
I STILL oppose it it.
Would you be so supportive of a Unitary Executive if a Gingrich or a Rumsfeld had those powers?
You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]
quaker bill
(8,224 posts)during law enforcement action against citizens. It happens all the time and only rarely does any sort of constitutional question arise.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)penalty.
What were the charges and the evidence against Al Awlaki and his teenage son? What acts did they carry out that warranted the death penalty?
quaker bill
(8,224 posts)if they don't stop when ordered to do so by law enforcement. They do not have to be armed or dangerous.
I don't believe the death penalty is ever warranted. We do it nonetheless. There have been 4 deaths at the hands of law enforcement here over the last 10 days. Last night it was a guy on a motorcycle attempting to elude arrest. There is no accusation that he did anything at all that would even approach eligibility for the DP.
I think it is the drones or perhaps hanging out with terrorists that makes Al Awlaki so much more worthy of indignant protest than someone who was perhaps just a local purse snatcher. Curiously, both are just as dead.
Perhaps it is ODS, hard to tell.
surfdog
(624 posts)Amazing that members of the DU would be defending Al Qaeda leadership trying to convince us that they are nonviolent
Osama bin Laden never lifted his hand to anybody using your logic, he is off limits
surfdog
(624 posts)Amazing that members of the DU would be defending Al Qaeda leadership trying to convince us that they are nonviolent
Osama bin Laden never lifted his hand to anybody using your logic, he is off limits
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Post your proof of that personal attack or have the decency to retract it.
surfdog
(624 posts)You were defending Al Qaeda leadership in your post
The proof is in your own post , get a clue already
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)surfdog
(624 posts)"What were the charges and the evidence against Al Awlaki and his teenage son? What acts did they carry out that warranted the death penalty?"
Here you are defending Al Qaeda leadership take a bow
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Now, maybe you can answer those questions instead? What was the evidence, what acts did they commit, that warranted the DP?
The last time anyone accused me or other Democrats of 'supporting terrorists' or 'loving Saddam Hussein', was NOT on a Democratic Board. It is truly a shame to see these kinds of attacks now being dragged here to DU.
white_wolf
(6,238 posts)"Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,501 posts)Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,501 posts)Breitbart. Well done.
girl gone mad
(20,634 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)indepat
(20,899 posts)damage to by-standers and due process.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)I just wonder if they'll feel the same the next time a repuke is president.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)Yeah what a , eh?
Hopefully they can avoid that for quite some time, but should be interesting when it comes along.
_ed_
(1,734 posts)Anyone who defends this owes GW Bush a big apology. Evidently, civil liberties were just an election wedge issue and not a core value for most Democrats.
rudycantfail
(300 posts)Good post.
Trillo
(9,154 posts)Is it clear he only meant literal killings?
wildbilln864
(13,382 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)...misreading this? Shouldn't the OP title include at least the word "terrorist"? I mean, all U.S. citizens are not terrorists.
USArmyParatrooper
(1,827 posts)If a US citizen joined the Nazi army during WWII, would he not be a legitimate military target? Or would we have to send law enforcement offers into German controlled territory to arrest him?
Swede
(33,255 posts)Wonder if you'll get a good answer?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)simply accuse someone they did not like of being a member of the Nazi Party, or the Communist Party, or Al Queda, or the Mafia or whatever the current enemy might be.
Are you saying that there does not need to be any evidence, any charges before administering the death penalty and that the Executive Branch alone has the authority to make such decisions? And is under no obligation to share the evidence with the American people?
Do you think we need to rethink our opposition to Bush on this issue?
ProSense
(116,464 posts)...that you agree with the administration's position because they aren't arguing that no evidence is needed. Your statement suggests that if there is evidence, then it's appropriate.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)If the death penalty is to be administered, according to Law, (most civilized countries do not have the DP so I am speaking of the US which is the only developed country that still uses it) it is expected that great care be taken to ensure that an innocent person is not subjected to this irreversible act.
First someone becomes a suspect, then evidence is gathered, sometimes it is presented to a GJ or if it is strong enough, the suspect will simply be charged. Regardless of how heinous the crime, that suspect is entitled to a defense and the prosecutor must prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. The choice to ask for the DP is up to the prosecution.
Bush and his gang decided that the Executive Branch did not need to bother with all of these annoying steps and that the President alone had the power to be prosecutor, judge and jury. He used fear and the WOT to try to make that case. We on the Left, and many even on the Right, did not buy this argument.
Are you saying now, which was my question, that Bush was right after all?
USArmyParatrooper
(1,827 posts)So what if US officials received actionable intelligence that this was the case?
Next you're going to say, "Try him in court," which is essentially saying fly law enforcement deep into enemy, German territory to "arrest" him.
kenny blankenship
(15,689 posts)A chief executive who can order anyone assassinated or indefinitely detained/tortured without trial, evidence or cooperation with or review by other branches of government does not have to answer to anybody. That was the whole point behind the Founding Fathers making it unConstitutional for the President to behave in that way in the first place.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)ordered the assassination of US citizens?
Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #39)
Post removed
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)to back up that vile and false allegation.
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,501 posts)JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)legacy. The country has apologized for that violation of human rights.
Don't see how you can say they were okay considering all of that.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)My point was that FDR had a tough decision, we had a war with Japan, and many Japanese Americans. So he locked them up. And yet today, his legacy is NOT about that.
Obama has a similar issue. Stateless terrorists. Obama can not put American Muslims in internment camps. And so if a Muslim American joins Al-Qaeda, and leaves the US, now what?
Does he pretend this is not a threat? Should he lock up all Muslims similar to what FDR did?
If Obama was taking out lots of Americans, I might be more concerned, but in the present case, the guy they killed, it is pretty clear that he left the US, decided to attack us, and lost his rights to our protections in the process.