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The Northerner

(5,040 posts)
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 04:30 PM Mar 2012

Justice denied: Obama must defend killing citizens without a trial

The position of the Obama administration, as articulated by Attorney General Eric Holder, on killing Americans who may be a threat to the country without trial or any other semblance of due process is astonishing.

Mr. Holder, in a speech on Monday at Northwestern University, said government has the authority to kill a "U.S. citizen terrorist who presents an imminent threat of violent attack" and cannot be captured. The added fact that the administration has yet to make public its legal argument to justify this position adds insult to injury in terms of accountability to Americans.

The argument that the 9/11 attack justified a partial dismantling of the system of justice because the nation was plunged into an undefinable war on terrorism may have held water in the early, angry days after the 2001 deaths. But now, more than a decade later, the United States is governed by President Barack Obama, who taught courses in constitutional law and should know better.

Instead, his administration executed two U.S. citizens, Anwar al-Awlaki and his son, Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, 16, in Yemen with drones last fall and without benefit of charges, a trial, defense counsel, a guilty verdict and appropriate sentence. There is certainly an argument that the Awlakis were evildoers and represented a threat to the safety and well-being of Americans. For that reason, the Post-Gazette was sympathetic to the administration's aggressive actions last year.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/opinion/editorials/justice-denied-obama-must-defend-killing-citizens-without-a-trial-317970/

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Justice denied: Obama must defend killing citizens without a trial (Original Post) The Northerner Mar 2012 OP
Treason doth not prosper gratuitous Mar 2012 #1
They've made "due process" equal to "the President ordered him shot." kenny blankenship Mar 2012 #28
Yep, but you can't really say that gratuitous Mar 2012 #30
Do the police have the authority.... surfdog Mar 2012 #2
Because those killed were not in the United States. RC Mar 2012 #5
So if you can get across the border, it is all good, right? quaker bill Mar 2012 #17
Police officers are held accountable, or are supposed to be, when someone is killed. sabrina 1 Mar 2012 #14
Indeed they are quaker bill Mar 2012 #18
At least you admit... surfdog Mar 2012 #31
You Have 2 Anti Obama Posts on Same Afternoon ..Is this a Trend with You? indykatie1955 Mar 2012 #3
"Anti-Obama" ? bvar22 Mar 2012 #7
The constitution does not rule out the use of lethal force quaker bill Mar 2012 #19
And yet, there has to be some evidence that the citizens were a threat worthy of the death sabrina 1 Mar 2012 #21
Deadly force is legal against fleeing felons here quaker bill Mar 2012 #26
And here comes the Al Qaeda defendant surfdog Mar 2012 #32
And here comes the Al Qaeda defendant surfdog Mar 2012 #34
Did you just call me an 'Al Queda Defendant'? sabrina 1 Mar 2012 #35
Simply put.... surfdog Mar 2012 #36
Post it please. You made the allegation, it is up to you to post some proof of your claim. sabrina 1 Mar 2012 #38
Here you go... surfdog Mar 2012 #40
Just as I thought. You made a vile false allegation and can not back it up. sabrina 1 Mar 2012 #43
McCarthyism is alive and well it seems. white_wolf Mar 2012 #44
This particular McBreitbartiate is dead now: Guy Whitey Corngood Mar 2012 #49
First off, that word doesn't mean what you think it means. Second, way to channel Guy Whitey Corngood Mar 2012 #46
Are you now or have you ever been...? girl gone mad Mar 2012 #9
Welcome to the new DU! nt woo me with science Mar 2012 #10
It's like the evil-doers must be wasted at any cost, hang the collateral indepat Mar 2012 #4
I'm suprised by the number of DUers willing to help him out with this defense. hughee99 Mar 2012 #6
hehehe SammyWinstonJack Mar 2012 #8
It's shameful _ed_ Mar 2012 #12
Ding, ding! saras Mar 2012 #25
No shit ed. rudycantfail Mar 2012 #29
Every time I read this story, I wonder if Holder also means a metaphorical killing. Trillo Mar 2012 #11
k & freakin r! nt wildbilln864 Mar 2012 #13
Am I ProSense Mar 2012 #15
So a question. USArmyParatrooper Mar 2012 #16
Good question. Swede Mar 2012 #20
There would have to be some evidence that this was the case, otherwise anyone could sabrina 1 Mar 2012 #22
Appears ProSense Mar 2012 #23
I'm speaking in general about the 'Rule of Law'. sabrina 1 Mar 2012 #37
I see. USArmyParatrooper Mar 2012 #24
Who's going to make him? kenny blankenship Mar 2012 #27
Did FDR have to defend the policy during WWII? Thx in advance uponit7771 Mar 2012 #33
I don't know the answer to that. Can you post some examples of where FDR sabrina 1 Mar 2012 #39
Post removed Post removed Mar 2012 #42
Prove it! You've already failed to do so so far. I'm sure everyone is now waiting for you sabrina 1 Mar 2012 #45
Calm down Slappy. You don't wanna have a heart attack at 43. Or maybe you do. Who knows. nt Guy Whitey Corngood Mar 2012 #47
Internment camps were ok JoePhilly Mar 2012 #41
No they weren't, and they are and will remain a stain on FDR's sabrina 1 Mar 2012 #48
Maybe I needed the sarcasm tag?? Guess so. JoePhilly Mar 2012 #50

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
1. Treason doth not prosper
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 04:38 PM
Mar 2012

For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.

Glad to see the Post-Gazette re-thinking its prior position. Summary execution isn't supposed to be the way we do things in the United States. Secretary of State Clinton, decrying the recent massacre in Afghanistan by one of our own, made the fatuous statement "That's not who we are." Really, Ms. Clinton? What about the sudden execution of people is "not who we are"?

It's a lot easier to start this kind of shit than it is to stop it, and I don't think the United States has the political will to do it anymore. The moral lilliputians running our government nowadays equate the due process of law with being "soft" on crime, or terrorist activity, or whatever this month's boogey man is.

gratuitous

(82,849 posts)
30. Yep, but you can't really say that
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 10:54 PM
Mar 2012

So we're treated to preposterous scenarios and all the "what ifs": What if those awful, awful people don't turn themselves in to the people who want to summarily execute them? They're practically fleeing felons (who've never been charged, never arrested, and have no indication they've been marked for death)! What if there were Nazis? And frogmen off the coast? And Nazi frogmen? Would you shitcan the Constitution then? Huh? Huh? Huh? What about that?

No. No, I'm not willing to sacrifice the Constitution because some people are wet-their-pants scared. Despite the rhetoric of tyrants ("My job is to protect the people!&quot we keep hearing, our elected officials are supposed to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution, not the American people. Without the Constitution, there is no United States. And without our constitutional system of due process and judicial review, our system isn't the United States, even if it retains some of the accoutrements of our former democracy.

 

surfdog

(624 posts)
2. Do the police have the authority....
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 04:47 PM
Mar 2012

To kill somebody that's a threat to our nation when they can't be captured ?

The answer is yes

Now tell me why a local police officer has more authority than the president of United States of America

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
5. Because those killed were not in the United States.
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 05:58 PM
Mar 2012

And Congress has not declared war on that/those countries.

quaker bill

(8,224 posts)
17. So if you can get across the border, it is all good, right?
Reply to RC (Reply #5)
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 08:27 PM
Mar 2012

And the other bit, killing the rest of them was apparently less of a problem, because they weren't citizens.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
14. Police officers are held accountable, or are supposed to be, when someone is killed.
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 07:53 PM
Mar 2012

There are review boards which are supposed to determine whether the killing was justifiable or not, iow, whether the individual was actually a threat to the PO. If not then that PO will suffer consequences for his or her actions. And no PO is in a position to pre-determine guilt and punishment or to administer the death penalty based on his or her own interpretation of the actions of a suspect. The only time a PO can kill someone is if there is an imminent threat to him or her or to members of the public.

Why do you think the Founders thought it was necessary that no one branch of the Government have more power than another? Why was it never okay for a POTUS to have to power of a judge, jury and executioner?

quaker bill

(8,224 posts)
18. Indeed they are
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 08:32 PM
Mar 2012

but it doesn't cure the dead. BTW in FL we have a "fleeing felon" law that allows lethal force to be used in absence of an immediate threat, as long as the felon is fleeing and does not stop when ordered. There have been 4 local deaths during law enforcement activity over the last week. The police involved will all be cleared and some might even get a citation.

 

surfdog

(624 posts)
31. At least you admit...
Fri Mar 16, 2012, 09:51 AM
Mar 2012

That the police have the authority to kill somebody without due process

Thanks for making my point

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
7. "Anti-Obama" ?
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 06:50 PM
Mar 2012

or Pro-Constitution?

When those seeking to protect the limitations imposed on our government by the Constitution
are labeled as "Anti-Obama",
we have a REAL problem.

I opposed the extra-Constitution power grab by a Unitary Executive Branch when Bush started it.
I STILL oppose it it.

Would you be so supportive of a Unitary Executive if a Gingrich or a Rumsfeld had those powers?




You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

quaker bill

(8,224 posts)
19. The constitution does not rule out the use of lethal force
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 08:34 PM
Mar 2012

during law enforcement action against citizens. It happens all the time and only rarely does any sort of constitutional question arise.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
21. And yet, there has to be some evidence that the citizens were a threat worthy of the death
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 08:44 PM
Mar 2012

penalty.

What were the charges and the evidence against Al Awlaki and his teenage son? What acts did they carry out that warranted the death penalty?

quaker bill

(8,224 posts)
26. Deadly force is legal against fleeing felons here
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 10:07 PM
Mar 2012

if they don't stop when ordered to do so by law enforcement. They do not have to be armed or dangerous.

I don't believe the death penalty is ever warranted. We do it nonetheless. There have been 4 deaths at the hands of law enforcement here over the last 10 days. Last night it was a guy on a motorcycle attempting to elude arrest. There is no accusation that he did anything at all that would even approach eligibility for the DP.

I think it is the drones or perhaps hanging out with terrorists that makes Al Awlaki so much more worthy of indignant protest than someone who was perhaps just a local purse snatcher. Curiously, both are just as dead.

Perhaps it is ODS, hard to tell.

 

surfdog

(624 posts)
32. And here comes the Al Qaeda defendant
Fri Mar 16, 2012, 10:35 AM
Mar 2012

Amazing that members of the DU would be defending Al Qaeda leadership trying to convince us that they are nonviolent

Osama bin Laden never lifted his hand to anybody using your logic, he is off limits

 

surfdog

(624 posts)
34. And here comes the Al Qaeda defendant
Fri Mar 16, 2012, 11:08 AM
Mar 2012

Amazing that members of the DU would be defending Al Qaeda leadership trying to convince us that they are nonviolent

Osama bin Laden never lifted his hand to anybody using your logic, he is off limits

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
35. Did you just call me an 'Al Queda Defendant'?
Fri Mar 16, 2012, 03:00 PM
Mar 2012

Post your proof of that personal attack or have the decency to retract it.

 

surfdog

(624 posts)
36. Simply put....
Fri Mar 16, 2012, 03:03 PM
Mar 2012

You were defending Al Qaeda leadership in your post

The proof is in your own post , get a clue already

 

surfdog

(624 posts)
40. Here you go...
Fri Mar 16, 2012, 04:09 PM
Mar 2012

"What were the charges and the evidence against Al Awlaki and his teenage son? What acts did they carry out that warranted the death penalty?"

Here you are defending Al Qaeda leadership take a bow

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
43. Just as I thought. You made a vile false allegation and can not back it up.
Fri Mar 16, 2012, 04:13 PM
Mar 2012

Now, maybe you can answer those questions instead? What was the evidence, what acts did they commit, that warranted the DP?

The last time anyone accused me or other Democrats of 'supporting terrorists' or 'loving Saddam Hussein', was NOT on a Democratic Board. It is truly a shame to see these kinds of attacks now being dragged here to DU.

white_wolf

(6,238 posts)
44. McCarthyism is alive and well it seems.
Fri Mar 16, 2012, 04:15 PM
Mar 2012

"Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"

indepat

(20,899 posts)
4. It's like the evil-doers must be wasted at any cost, hang the collateral
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 05:55 PM
Mar 2012

damage to by-standers and due process.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
6. I'm suprised by the number of DUers willing to help him out with this defense.
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 06:08 PM
Mar 2012

I just wonder if they'll feel the same the next time a repuke is president.

SammyWinstonJack

(44,130 posts)
8. hehehe
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 06:59 PM
Mar 2012
I just wonder if they'll feel the same the next time a repuke is president.


Yeah what a , eh?


Hopefully they can avoid that for quite some time, but should be interesting when it comes along.

_ed_

(1,734 posts)
12. It's shameful
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 07:45 PM
Mar 2012

Anyone who defends this owes GW Bush a big apology. Evidently, civil liberties were just an election wedge issue and not a core value for most Democrats.

Trillo

(9,154 posts)
11. Every time I read this story, I wonder if Holder also means a metaphorical killing.
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 07:40 PM
Mar 2012

Is it clear he only meant literal killings?

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
15. Am I
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 07:58 PM
Mar 2012
Mr. Holder, in a speech on Monday at Northwestern University, said government has the authority to kill a "U.S. citizen terrorist who presents an imminent threat of violent attack" and cannot be captured. The added fact that the administration has yet to make public its legal argument to justify this position adds insult to injury in terms of accountability to Americans.

...misreading this? Shouldn't the OP title include at least the word "terrorist"? I mean, all U.S. citizens are not terrorists.

USArmyParatrooper

(1,827 posts)
16. So a question.
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 08:01 PM
Mar 2012

If a US citizen joined the Nazi army during WWII, would he not be a legitimate military target? Or would we have to send law enforcement offers into German controlled territory to arrest him?

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
22. There would have to be some evidence that this was the case, otherwise anyone could
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 08:49 PM
Mar 2012

simply accuse someone they did not like of being a member of the Nazi Party, or the Communist Party, or Al Queda, or the Mafia or whatever the current enemy might be.

Are you saying that there does not need to be any evidence, any charges before administering the death penalty and that the Executive Branch alone has the authority to make such decisions? And is under no obligation to share the evidence with the American people?

Do you think we need to rethink our opposition to Bush on this issue?

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
23. Appears
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 08:57 PM
Mar 2012
There would have to be some evidence that this was the case, otherwise anyone could simply accuse someone they did not like of being a member of the Nazi Party, or the Communist Party, or Al Queda, or the Mafia or whatever the current enemy might be.

...that you agree with the administration's position because they aren't arguing that no evidence is needed. Your statement suggests that if there is evidence, then it's appropriate.


sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
37. I'm speaking in general about the 'Rule of Law'.
Fri Mar 16, 2012, 03:07 PM
Mar 2012

If the death penalty is to be administered, according to Law, (most civilized countries do not have the DP so I am speaking of the US which is the only developed country that still uses it) it is expected that great care be taken to ensure that an innocent person is not subjected to this irreversible act.

First someone becomes a suspect, then evidence is gathered, sometimes it is presented to a GJ or if it is strong enough, the suspect will simply be charged. Regardless of how heinous the crime, that suspect is entitled to a defense and the prosecutor must prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. The choice to ask for the DP is up to the prosecution.

Bush and his gang decided that the Executive Branch did not need to bother with all of these annoying steps and that the President alone had the power to be prosecutor, judge and jury. He used fear and the WOT to try to make that case. We on the Left, and many even on the Right, did not buy this argument.

Are you saying now, which was my question, that Bush was right after all?

USArmyParatrooper

(1,827 posts)
24. I see.
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 09:00 PM
Mar 2012

So what if US officials received actionable intelligence that this was the case?

Next you're going to say, "Try him in court," which is essentially saying fly law enforcement deep into enemy, German territory to "arrest" him.

kenny blankenship

(15,689 posts)
27. Who's going to make him?
Thu Mar 15, 2012, 10:08 PM
Mar 2012

A chief executive who can order anyone assassinated or indefinitely detained/tortured without trial, evidence or cooperation with or review by other branches of government does not have to answer to anybody. That was the whole point behind the Founding Fathers making it unConstitutional for the President to behave in that way in the first place.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
39. I don't know the answer to that. Can you post some examples of where FDR
Fri Mar 16, 2012, 03:57 PM
Mar 2012

ordered the assassination of US citizens?

Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #39)

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
45. Prove it! You've already failed to do so so far. I'm sure everyone is now waiting for you
Fri Mar 16, 2012, 04:15 PM
Mar 2012

to back up that vile and false allegation.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
48. No they weren't, and they are and will remain a stain on FDR's
Fri Mar 16, 2012, 04:42 PM
Mar 2012

legacy. The country has apologized for that violation of human rights.

Don't see how you can say they were okay considering all of that.

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
50. Maybe I needed the sarcasm tag?? Guess so.
Fri Mar 16, 2012, 05:29 PM
Mar 2012

My point was that FDR had a tough decision, we had a war with Japan, and many Japanese Americans. So he locked them up. And yet today, his legacy is NOT about that.

Obama has a similar issue. Stateless terrorists. Obama can not put American Muslims in internment camps. And so if a Muslim American joins Al-Qaeda, and leaves the US, now what?

Does he pretend this is not a threat? Should he lock up all Muslims similar to what FDR did?

If Obama was taking out lots of Americans, I might be more concerned, but in the present case, the guy they killed, it is pretty clear that he left the US, decided to attack us, and lost his rights to our protections in the process.

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