Faux service dog owner testing businesses' patience

[KurtNYC]

Around 2 weeks ago a new guy showed up in town and his hobby seems to be forcing every business owner on main street to accept that his dog is a service dog and therefore unrefusable.

I wouldn't care as much but I own 2 dogs and have worked my ass off to make sure that they are well behaved and good ambassadors to humans who are afraid of dogs or outright hate dogs. A group of owners and myself are trying to get the city to set aside land for a dog park and are working on other community issues.

The faux SD guy walks up and down main street during the middle of the day wearing a backpack and a leather cowboy hat. His dog is a small lab mix which he dresses in dayglo neon orange vest that has at least 10 patches on it. The owner has no visible disability and the dog is intact (not neutered), and it cowers and whines, sometimes going into anxiety attacks that have it doing those little yelps.

He was denied access to the local health food market because he and his dog created a disturbance. He has been asked to leave various restaurants because his dog was whining and barking for 10 minutes. He never corrected the dog or asked it to stop, he just got loud and insisted that his dog was not a problem. Now he shouts rude remarks at 2 restaurant owners when he sees them on the street.

When he has approached me and my dogs, my dogs get excited (as they do when they see any kind of lab) and when I deny the greeting the female will bark briefly and I correct her. Third time I am passing this guy, he stops, gets down on his knees and growls and barks in my dog's face. He camped out in the local dog store. Let his dog runs loose. Demanded that the shop keeper kiss his dog (she declined). And when she asked why his service dog was not neutered he said that his vet told him not to neuter until the dog reached 10 years of age. When he got into a shouting match with another dog owner he started yelling "You're in favor of hydrofraking! You voted for Bush! You like Rush Limbaugh!" all of which are creative insults but totally random to the prior discussion.

My concern is that this guy is going to make life worse for all the dogs in this city by continuing to create bad experiences and being a pushy jerk about owning a dog. As a dog owner I don't like being grouped with owners who are crazy, irresponsible (don't pick up poop, neuter, train, etc) or just plain a-holes. I want to reach out to affected business owners and let them know what the ADA rules are and try to prevent this guy from ruining what is generally a very dog friendly atmosphere here.

[Mother Of Four]

1. I wish I could help you with more ideas...

The only thing I can think to do is go here http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/vet/vet-doglicense-faq.shtml#servicedog and start some phone calls.

I'm going to assume you're in NYC?

If they can't help you, hopefully they can point you in the right direction.

There's also this group http://www.servicedognyc.com/ that might be able to give you an idea of where to go to get some results.

Here...I found this on the service dog site.

"- What local documentation is required of disabled NYC residents who own and use a Service Dog?

Where there is a conflict in legislation, federal laws take precedence over state and local laws.

In NYC, all residents are required to have their dogs registered by the NYC Department of Health and Mental Hygiene. Those who own service dogs are required to further register their dogs as "Service Dogs" at no additional cost. Registered Service Dogs in NYC are issued a special cross-shaped brass tag to identify the dog's Service Dog License number. The example picture below shows such tag, except with the license number crossed out.



All NYC residents' Service Dogs are required to wear their NYC dog license, the NYC Service Dog tag, and Rabies Vaccination tag, all of which should be up to date. In compliance to local NYC governance rules and regulations, disabled NYC residents with Service dogs must also carry the NYC Dog License card, which should state in the lower right hand corner that the dog is a "Service Dog" or "Guide Dog" with the Department of Health and Mental Hygiene. (See example pictures below)"


So..if his dog doesn't have a tag like the one above, he is NOT a service dog and he can't badger the business owners. Easy Peasy

[KurtNYC]

14. I'm in a town of 8000 upstate now

things are much looser here but I like the city issued tag.

[sharp_stick]

2. This dude sounds like he's a bit on the

unstable side. Other than making sure the businesses/people know that this guy isn't legitimate I'm not sure what you can do. He may get himself arrested before long if he continues to trespass.

[snooper2]

3. Has anybody tried just beating him up?

[jsmirman]

4. Meanwhile DOGS ARE DYING in Japan

But somehow, no one gives a damn?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002425840


(and this guy really needs to neuter his dog)

[Occulus]

12. Stop spamming that.

It's not welcome.

[HillWilliam]

5. People like those who take advantage of the law

make it so much harder for those of us who depend on service dogs. About the only thing we can do is be the best ambassadors we can be (human and canine). Do have a gentle word with the business owners you patronize. They'll understand the difference. They may not be able under the law to deny his dog access, but they can deny him if he becomes any worse problem. Given the way the law is written, neither will be easy and totally without some kind of repercussion.

Part of the contract is that the owner and service partner are good citizens in order to have continued access.

I kinda feel sorry for the guy. Sounds as if he's got problems. His problems aren't your (or your service partner's) problems. Gently make that clear.

[MiniMe]

6. True Service Dogs are very well trained. And they wouldn't make it through the program if they

had anxiety attacks. The guy has a screw loose. If you run into him again, I would ask him what kind of service dog he is, because service dogs are trained to help with something.

Anyway, this link may help:

http://www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm

edited to add: I wonder is the dog is a psychiatric service dog. From you initial description, I thought the gentleman could have been a war vet and possibly suffering from PTSD. However, if you read the link I posted, you can ask for the dog to be removed if it is a danger to other people, or if it creates a disturbance, such as excessive barking in a movie or in the theater. I think there is a phone number on the ADA site, and they may be able to give you some guidance.

[KurtNYC]

11. I re-read ADA with the 2011 updates and

it looks like you can self-certify your dog. YOU must have an ADA qualifying condition but other than that if you say the dog helps you then that's it. So it seems possible that if he has a psychiatric condition that he could qualify ANY dog as a service dog. Personally I don't think a dog that has it's own anxiety attacks is going to be much help to an owner who barks at dogs.

[obamanut2012]

7. Someone can't just say they have a Service Dog

Those dogs are extremely well-trained, have a calm temperment, are neutered/spayed (ALWAYS), and have certification (ALWAYS). I would actually call someone local who coordinates or trains Service Dogs -- like a hospital or a disabled group. They can get authorities to do something, including maybe getting that poor dog rehomed.

[EFerrari]

17. Where I live, all I needed was for my doctor to prescribe my dog for me

and I was able to get a public transportation permit. That's the only paper my dog had and I trained her myself. She was extremely well behaved, though, and never caused a single problem in her whole life. But she did not go to school at all.

This fake SD guy seems to have some kind of cognitive problem. Maybe a call to the community service officer for advice would be helpful.

[thedogtrainer]

22. Sorry a Dr.'s "Prescription" doesn't make your dog a service dog

Your service dog must be INDIVIDUALLY TRAINED TO MITIGATE YOUR DISABILITY. Simply being a dog that "makes you feel better" doesn't mean it's a service dog.....Read the law.

[EFerrari]

25. Well, wrong. It did where I lived.

Oh, and she was INDIVIDUALLY TRAINED TO MITIGATE MY DISABILITY by me.

[thedogtrainer]

26. So.....

1) Why does the dog need to be rehomed? Is it being beaten? Abused? Not fed? Not Groomed?
2) Please show me a law where it says all service dogs are neutered/spayed?
3) How would you like it if someone came and stole your dog?

[liberalhistorian]

45. No kidding. That dog may be

the only thing keeping that guy at least somewhat sane and stable.

[Bryn]

8. I had a service dog ... She didn't act like that and was one of the best

Her name was Shane, she was my hearing/signal service dog. She went to work with me, traveled on planes and trains with me, shopping, even in restaurants, etc. Very well behaved.

Obviously this guy's dog isn't a service dog because they're required to be fixed. I agree that this guy is ruining it for others.. Service dogs and Responsible Dog owners both. We work hard, put our energy, love, time, money to train our dogs only to have an asshole to ruin it.

[KurtNYC]

13. I was trying to find something that said service dogs have to be fixed

but really found just the opposite in the Federal laws; ANY dog can be a service dog and you can self-train and certify.

"The ADA defines a service animal as any guide dog, signal dog, or other animal individually trained to provide assistance to an individual with a disability. If they meet this definition, animals are considered service animals under the ADA regardless of whether they have been licensed or certified by a state or local government."

http://www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm

Can you point me to the neutering requirement (because that would put an end to this guy's act in a hurry)?

They sell the vests and patches on eBay so there are lots of people abusing this. I spent 2 days at Bonnie Bergin's service dog entity and saw the full range of training that goes into top level service dogs. No way is this guy's dog at that level but as I read ADA it wouldn't have to be to qualify. On the other hand, it is a felony to claim your dog is a service dog if it isn't.

[Bryn]

16. Information you found via ADA gov is correct

Unfortunately. When I first trained Shane I was amazed to learn that we weren't REQUIRED to show certification to anyone.

When I said "Required to be fixed", I stand correct. For some crazy reason they're not legally required, but I've never met a service dog that wasn't fixed, they're ALWAYS spayed/neutered. If a male dog isn't neutered he'd be too aggressive, too territorial, too ritual with markings when out with other dogs around. He would not make a good service dog.

I just checked out to see if police dogs were neutered and found this:

For the most part, working police dogs are intact males. Testosterone plays a huge role in the dog's development and drives.

Furthermore, most of the breeding dogs that are used to create working police dogs are not police dogs themselves. I believe the breeding dogs are normally used in protection dog sports such as Schutzhund and Ring Sport.

I imagine this is why so many people are getting away with "service dogs". Doh!

[thedogtrainer]

21. Really????

My dogs are not territorial, they don't do ritual marking when out with other dogs around, etc....nor are they too aggressive....And, they are Rottweilers....

Please don't speak of things that you don't know about. While 99.99999% of all service dog organizations do neuter and spay, it is not a requirement.

I do not own a speutered dog....My main service dog met the Pope in Rome in January....and she was in heat at the time.....

[Drahthaardogs]

34. If you really know dogs

you know that true police/protection dogs are a whole different creature. They are not french ring, they are not schutzhund, most are handler hard, and they are pretty much BORN that way. They don't the sleeve because they are never put on a sleeve. Most folks do not realize that most schutzhund dogs are really just playing a game. A real man stopper is a dog that most have never seen, and even fewer have trained.

[thedogtrainer]

23. Please show me a law

Where it says a service dog has to be neutered?

[Bryn]

36. Please see my post #16

Where I had already posted a correction. No they're not required by law.

[anti-alec]

42. Hmm.. Interesting

The International Hearing Dog in Henderson, CO has a rule that all animals has to be behaviorally evaluated, spayed/neutered and must come from a shelter.

When I had a dog that needed to be trained for our family, we had an independent evaluator come in and assess the dog to see if he was capable of doing that - he wasn't.

Since then we don't have a dog, and I'm not ready to get another one (the wife is afraid of animals, and I'm STILL trying to convince her that we need one after our son leaves for college in 15 years)

For those who were wondering: I placed Teddy into a very nice home north of where I live, and since then I have heard that he is very happy with the kids that love him to death, and has been with them since 2003. That would make him about 10 years old, since his birthday is May 2nd. He is a Maltepoo.

[liberalhistorian]

46. Yeah, 'cause the cops are SO

good and competent at helping mental problems and getting them "attention." Right. Sure. Yeah, that's the ticket.

[liberalhistorian]

50. Well, aren't you just

a pillar of compassion and care! Never mind that we criminalize the mentally ill and jail them instead of treat them, and never mind that they tend to die at the hands of cops and/or in jail in disproportionate numbers. Business uber alles!

[Snake Alchemist]

10. Wait, are we 100% sure this guy isn't disabled? nt

[Mother Of Four]

15. I think the thing is to see if his dog is actually a service dog-

That I think would be step one.

If he's disabled and is spinning out of control then someone needs to intervene before he hurts himself (getting in the middle of a dog fight with his and another dog, growling and barking at a dog in its face) or causes someone else/someone elses dog to get hurt.

Either way, someone needs to check on this guy.

For all we know, he may have mental stability issues and can't afford his meds.


To the OP: In a town as small as the one you said upthread, is there a local APS you can get ahold of to come and evaluate this fella?

[RebelOne]

18. Seems like this guy is mentally disabled. n/t

[wildcat567]

19. Faux service dog; neutering

it sounds to me like the guy is mentally ill, and that because his dog is not behaving appropriately in public environments, business owners have the right to ask him to depart the premise with the option to return without the dog. Police CAN be called, but they can't really do anything unless he's violating a city or county code or regulation, such as disturbing the peace, loitering, etc.

As for neutering, it is NOT a requirement that a service dog be neutered/spayed. I have a 10 mos old Rottweiler in training to be a mobility assistance dog. I have not had him fixed yet because I want to be sure he is 100% full grown and muscled out because he needs to be very strong. Some vets/trainers say it's ok to neuter when they are about 70-80% of their full grown size, but I'm not willing to take the chance that it will stunt his size or strength whatsoever. So far, the only time he displays annoying behavior associated with being intact is when he is at the dog park - and he is only interested in humping neutered males (go figure). But I keep an eye on him and as soon as I see that behavior about to start, I stop it immediately. He does not go very far from me, so keeping close to him to be able to do that is not an issue. Besides, my NEUTERED 20 lb. Blue Heeler/Min Pin mix that was just retired from service dog (medical alert) work, is even more annoying with the whole humping thing at the dog park. It's not about sex; it's about dominance. Both dogs have learned what a squirt bottle with water in it means! They see it come out and they turn into angels.

Anyway, I do plan on neutering my boy Rufus when he's closer to 18 mos old but only if he shows behavior that a vet and/or trainer thinks would go away with neutering. Rufus is the most handsome Rottweiler I have ever seen, and I would love to breed him because of his looks and his amazingly calm, loving temperament. He would make good babies if he were mated with a really good bitch Rottie. So, we'll see.

I hope one of the business owners calls the police on whackjob guy; even if he's mentally ill, he needs to get into the system for help And if he won't take help, the business owners have every right to 86 him.

[thedogtrainer]

27. Neutering your Rottie

Please, Please, Please do your research very very very carefully. Rotties should not be neutered/spayed until they are 6-7 yrs of age, and frankly, unless he has issues, there isn't really ever a reason to neuter a male dog.

Did you know that 1 in 4 spayed/neutered Rottweilers develop bone cancer? While, if left intact, only 1 in 10 develop it.

Neutering can cause excessive bone growth(not a good thing), thyroid issues, aggression issues, and a whole bunch of other problems.

Please do your research.

[RebelOne]

32. My Rottie was spayed when she was 10 years old.

She had an infection and she had to be spayed because it was an emergency as she was bleeding. Rotties are known to be prone to bone cancer. My dog died at almost 13 years of age because of liver and bone cancer.

[uppityperson]

35. Link to all of that please? Please show us reputable sources about that, thank you.

[thedogtrainer]

37. You want more? Simply Google Ostosarcoma and Rottweilers....

http://www.dogcancerblog.com/spaying-neutering-and-cancer-in-rottweilers/
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf
http://www.gpmcf.org/respectovaries.html

[thedogtrainer]

38. here's another

http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/11/11/1434.full
http://www.royalair.org/dontalter.html



For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may

exceed the associated health problems in some (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the

odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the female dog and the

relative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.

On the positive side, spaying female dogs

• if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common

malignant tumors in female dogs

• nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female

dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs

• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas

• removes the very small risk (0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

On the negative side, spaying female dogs

• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a

common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis

• increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by

a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds

• triples the risk of hypothyroidism

• increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many

associated health problems

• causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs

• increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4

• increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs

spayed before puberty

• doubles the small risk (

[uppityperson]

40. Thank you for the links. It is expected that if someone claims something they back it up, thank you

for doing so.

It looks like it is a risk for large breeds, with extra studies on Rotts because they have a higher incidence. This is interesting as I'd not heard of this and am willing to learn.

Yrs back I had a wonderful pound puppy. If I had to pick 2 breeds, Aussie and German Shepherds. I took him to get neutered and the vet wanted to know why. Taken aback, I told him to not make puppies. He asked if there were behavioral issues and after further discussion, we decided to do a vasectomy.

The dog was wonderful. Smart, human focused, energetic. Wanting to please and ready to learn anything I could think up. He never had marking or aggression issues, would have been a great service dog but was a great companion.

I've never had another vet offer this to me, have never heard of the bone cancer link. Thank you for your links. I appreciate it. Sorry if I was short in my previous post, or this one, am in the middle of an acute suppurative otitis media thing and am off.

[TBF]

47. You're likely correct about the neutering -

but the humping is more complicated. It can be sexual, can be dominance, can be anxiety - here's a good article I found that sums up different explanations I've heard from trainers: http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1498

BTW, the doggie daycare I take my lab to uses the spray water bottles as well - works like a charm.

Good luck with Rufus - sounds like a beautiful boy.

[thedogtrainer]

20. While I agree with most....

Of what you said, I don't personally neuter or spay my dogs.....Do you think you should have to neuter or spay your children? Grand kids? Nieces? Etc? Then, please don't shove speutering....

Now, on another issue....Educate the local police. WWW.servicedogcentral.org is a great resource....I have a Rottie as a service dog, and when I encounter "idiots" with their "pets" at places where they don't belong, and the dogs are snarling and snapping at my dog, I call the cops and have them removed. "Disturbing" a business is legit for excusal(IE, barking, whining, unless the dog is alerting to something, such as an on coming seizure.)

BTW, Not all disabilities are visible. You can't always tell when someone is blind, or deaf, or has epilepsy....I have MS...but, it's not always visible....

[EFerrari]

24. Unless your children are out mating and procreating with random strangers, there is no comparison.

[chrisa]

29. Does that mean we can neuter Charlie Sheen?

[EFerrari]

30. LOL

[uppityperson]

41. Are you saying children out mating with random strangers are causing "welfare rolls" to increase,

kids with low IQ, stupidity, rules and regulations? Please clarify. Thank you.

[Brickbat]

48. Sweet Christ.

[chrisa]

28. That's not a "service dog." Not even close.

Real service dogs actually go through rigorous training - especially to both A - ignore the outside world, and B - not make noise (think about it - you wouldn't want a dog to flip out when its supposed to be guiding a blind person). In fact, service dogs are trained so well that they will even ignore food when tempted with it.

I think you're dealing with someone who has a mental illness. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what they can do other than keep his dog out of restaurants and get the police involved if he evolves into physical attacks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. My lord I even met a service parrot

(convulsions). The bird was extremely well behaved.

[nolabear]

33. He sounds mentally ill and the service dog status might be a fantasy of his.

There are spay and neuter laws in most cities, as well as Animal Control. I don't want to see the dog impounded but it would be a good idea to call and ask if there's any way to check out its health and vaccinations just in case it bites someone.

I don't think you're in danger of being lumped in with him. He sounds, shall we say, unique.

[mzteris]

43. some resources

1st question: do you live in a state that requires registration? Some do.

Otherwise, found this on the ADA website: http://www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm

0. Q: What if a service animal barks or growls at other people, or otherwise acts out of control?

A: You may exclude any animal, including a service animal, from your facility when that animal's behavior poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others. For example, any service animal that displays vicious behavior towards other guests or customers may be excluded. You may not make assumptions, however, about how a particular animal is likely to behave based on your past experience with other animals. Each situation must be considered individually.

Although a public accommodation may exclude any service animal that is out of control, it should give the individual with a disability who uses the service animal the option of continuing to enjoy its goods and services without having the service animal on the premises.

11. Q: Can I exclude an animal that doesn't really seem dangerous but is disruptive to my business?

A: There may be a few circumstances when a public accommodation is not required to accommodate a service animal--that is, when doing so would result in a fundamental alteration to the nature of the business. Generally, this is not likely to occur in restaurants, hotels, retail stores, theaters, concert halls, and sports facilities. But when it does, for example, when a dog barks during a movie, the animal can be excluded.

If you have further questions about service animals or other requirements of the ADA, you may call the U.S. Department of Justice's toll-free ADA Information Line at 800-514-0301 (voice) or 800-514-0383 (TDD).

[liberalhistorian]

44. "No visible disabilites"

does not at all mean that he doesn't have one and that the dog isn't meant to be a service dog. There are plenty of "invisible" disabilities for which service dogs are used, including mental illnesses, anxiety/depression, brain injuries that cause verbal and mental issues, epilepsy, etc., etc. I know of at least two people with mental illnesses and anxiety who use legitimate service dogs and who have often had to fight with business owners about it, when their disabilities and service dogs are quite legitimate.

I'm not saying this is the case here, or that he isn't trying to game the system for his own advantage or that it isn't frustrating to deal with. Such people certainly exist, to the detriment of those with legitimate disabilities, visible or invisible. I'm just trying to point out that it may not be as cut and dried as you think simply because there's no visible disability. It certainly sounds like there could be a mental or brain issue.

[DiverDave]

52. The guy got down and BARKED

and growled at your dog?
I would have called the cops on him.
He has mental issues, and I would watch him close that
he doesnt go off and hurt someone/himself.

This guy needs help. pronto.

[KurtNYC]

53. Some otherwise sane people have done all kinds of things

and said all kinds of things to me and my dogs.

For example, a 3-YO got out of his stroller and picked up rocks. His parents told me, mildly and matter of fact: "He likes to throw rocks at dogs" and they were prepared to stand there and let him. I was stunned for a moment. My first thought was to tell them "oh really? well my foot likes to kick people like you in the ass."

When he barked at my dogs I told him to stop barking but I said it the way you would to a dog -- "no bark!" Just habit.