I Knew Pope Francis Was Good, But

[Egnever]

I Knew Pope Francis Was Good, But When I Found Out Everything He Did in 2013, I Was Blown Away

http://distractify.com/people/reasons-why-pope-francis-is-the-person-of-the-year/

Pope Francis has been declared Time’s Person Of The Year. Looking back on 2013, he has done some incredibly progressive things to lead the Church.

1. He spoke out against frivolous spending by the Church
2. He invited a boy with Down's Syndrome for a ride in the Popemobile
3. He embraced and kissed Vinicio Riva
4. He denounced the judgment of homosexuals
5. He held a major ceremony at the chapel of a youth prison
6. He urged the protection of the Amazon Rainforest
7. He personally called and consoled a victim of rape
8. He snuck out of the Vatican to feed the homeless
9. He auctioned his motorcycle to benefit the homeless ( A Harley!)
10. He acknowledged that atheists can be good people
11. He condemned the global financial system
12. He fought child abuse (He ammended Vatican law to make sexual abuse of children a crime, and he also established a committee to fight abuse.)
13. He condemned the violence of the Syrian civil war
14. He redirected employee bonuses to charity
15. He spoke out against the Church’s ‘obsession’ with abortion, gay marriage and contraception
16. He called for cooperation between Christians and Muslims
17. He took part in a selfie
18. He invited homeless men to his birthday meal
19. He refused to send away a child who had run on stage to hug him

Lots more info at the link.

I hope this pope lives a looong time!

[Common Sense Party]

1. I like the guy.

And I love Alberto's Messi jersey!!!

?w=620&h=465

[Egnever]

6. Me too

And I havent been a big fan of organized religion for a long time.

[FreakinDJ]

64. He really impresses me too

[MADem]

2. Didn't he wash the feet of a Muslim woman--and the wingnut crowd went wild?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/the-pope/9960168/Pope-washes-feet-of-young-Muslim-woman-prisoner-in-unprecedented-twist-on-Maundy-Thursday.html

[Egnever]

5. Yup

In March, the Pope held a major Holy Week service at Casal del Marmo jail for minors, rather than the Vatican. During the service, the pope washed and kissed the feet of 12 young offenders to commemorate Jesus' gesture of humility towards his apostles on the night before he died. During the service, he broke tradition by washing the feet of women and Muslims.

[Maraya1969]

17. I went to a service at the Unity Church, (a very progressive church) and the ministers

washed all of our feet. I don't know why but for me and all the other ones I saw going out after this were crying. I don't know what the emotions were but I knew it was good.

[Squinch]

25. I like that church.

I used to go their services sometimes. I learned from them.

[Vashta Nerada]

3. #17? Really?

Millions of teens took part in selfies. Big whoop.

[LiberalElite]

4. Teens do it all the time

big whoop if it's about them. This guy's a pope and he's in his 70's.

[ZRT2209]

13. this is DU

there's always someone to say something obnoxious, stupid, rude or deliberately obtuse. No shortage, even on New Year's!

[Vashta Nerada]

28. Yeah.

Did Francis change church law to show that he's serious about the points about the gays? Did he empty the church coffers to help the poor? Why is the RCC fighting so hard to block the mandate for coverage for contraceptives from the ACA?

Then you're right. This is is an obnoxious, stupid, rude or deliberately obtuse OP, even on New Year's.

[ZRT2209]

43. you have earned a full ignore. Happy New Year!

[Vashta Nerada]

44. Life is easy when you ignore reality.

I don't know how I'm going to make it through the day now that you ignored me. I think I'm going to have to go back to bed and weep uncontrollably. My roommate will have to go to the store and by me some more kleenex because I'm out.

[BuddhaGirl]

150. Life is also easy when one can't see a bigger picture

Black and white thinking...

This pope is making baby steps, which is a good thing. I am a former Catholic who disagrees with the church on most everything but I can see a bigger picture.

Give him time

[BarackTheVote]

80. He did say that gays should feel free to receive Communion

which is a big honking deal. To receive Holy Communion is acceptance in the community, period. While fundamentalists, Evangelicals and Catholics alike, are trying to close ranks and force "undesirables" out of the Church, Pope Francis said: no, come to Church, receive communion, Jesus loves you and wants to be part of you.

Also, the American Church is fighting to block the HHS mandate, and the American Church is full of rebellious conservative Bishops. Dolan just the other day stabbed the Pope in the back by claiming he wasn't talking about America in regards to the evils of corporatism--of COURSE FRANCIS WAS TALKING ABOUT AMERICA (among others). I think there's going to be a massive shake-up in USCCB if this sort of insubordination keeps up. What the Pope DID say was that healthcare was the right of every human being.

[1StrongBlackMan]

127. Not good enough ...

in order to get any play, the Pope must immediately reverse centuries of Church doctrine and sell off all Vatican assets!

[Vashta Nerada]

45. Taking a selfie = progressivism? Really?

Huh. I wonder if the DNC will have to change the Democratic Party Platform now?

[LiberalElite]

60. taking a selfie -

is taking a selfie. I wouldn't read a whole lot into it. Relax.

[Vashta Nerada]

69. From the article itself:

Looking back on 2013, he has done some incredibly progressive things to lead the Church.

Apparently taking a selfie is "progressive" now.

[TroglodyteScholar]

78. I gotta give him credit...

...for letting it happen without putting on a duck face:



http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/8CMwXrm5F96Bd2Fg90_mMQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTM4NjtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz0zODY-/

[NBachers]

7. A Pope-positive response to balance out the Pope-poopers

[Cha]

12. lol.. +1

Glass definitely 1/2 Full!

[Pirate Smile]

54. Yes!

[Morning Dew]

8. 1,4,6,10,11,13,15,16,17

I did those last year myself. I also did 12 except I can't
change laws so there ya go.

[TlalocW]

9. 21

He scared/pissed off uber-capitalist conservatives.

TlalocW

[defacto7]

10. OK, He's starting to get my attention a little I admit,

but he has a long and dangerous road ahead and a Vatican old boys club that has never been cracked yet.

[Egnever]

14. I just find it nice to have a guy in there for a change

That seems to actually care about people. First pope in my lifetime that ever struck me as a fitting head of the church.

[Squinch]

26. I agree.

And as a fallen Catholic, you know I'm not naturally well-disposed toward the guy. But he's caught my attention.

[Chan790]

41. +1 n/t

[840high]

154. +10

[blkmusclmachine]

11. More of Francis' "charm offensive."

The RCC will always be the RCC.

[AtheistCrusader]

15. Meanwhile the entity he is leader of is continuing to sue to block the ACA for contraception coverag

e.

Nice of him to invite me to 'work for peace' though, like it was HIS fucking party to invite me TO.

[Egnever]

16. Change happens one person at a time

He certainly has his work cut out for him. And there is sure to be something to put him down for but there seems to be an aweful lot of good in this pope and it is a nice change.

[AtheistCrusader]

18. I'm not sure it's possible for him to alter the core foundations of misogyny, homophobia, etc, that

comprise that church's dogma.

Can he walk back the idea that homosexuality is a sin? 'do not judge' is nice and all, but they still waste no time and no opportunity to tell anyone and everyone that it's a sin. They cannot and will not stop spending votes and money trying to halt same sex marriage. That's top down, and he will not, and can not change it.
Can he endorse contraceptives? Abortion? Can he even go neutral on abortion, and stop spending money trying to influence elections and appointments, trying to get RvW overturned in the US?
Can he change church policy allowing women priestly ordination? Nope. He can't walk back what Pope JP2 said. That is canonical law. He can't change it.

Until everyone gives up on the RCC, it will forever remain at loggerheads with progressive social issues across the board.

He talks a good game, but he's well on the record about things like Same Sex Marriage, prior to his latest job opportunity.

[Egnever]

19. Well you keep on raging

Seems your hell bent on it.

[Bluenorthwest]

42. It's so sad to see people side with those who oppose our basic rights.

Apathy from those who claim to be allies is a form of deciet while it was the rage of the righteous, not the apathetic snark of the friends of the status quo, that made all the progress I have ever seen made.
I just don't care for anti gay, anti choice celebrity preachers as much as you do I guess.

[Egnever]

51. Stupid vapid post

Applauding the good works of a man does not = siding with opposing your rights.

Whats sad is watching you attack people on your side for praising changes in the the leadership of the church that has been sorely needed for a long time.

[Bluenorthwest]

66. You dismiss his anti minority bigotry in order to cheer.

You do what you do for yourself.
You stand with the man who says my family is an attack on God's plan, coming from Satan. You promote him as a good man. A libel merchant, a hate preacher. It's your choice. I'm not going to say it looks appealing, it just makes Francis and the anti gay, anti choice crusade look like any other group trying hard to distract from the facts of their scandal ridden and heavily outdated Superstition Machine.
I'll never agree with you that a bigot can be 'good'. I reject that thinking.

[Egnever]

77. Sorry but no

I recognize a welcome change in the head of an organization that has been dead to me for years. Doesn't mean I think all is ok it means I encourage positive change even when it doesn't solve every single problem that needs dealing with.

I understand your disagreement with the catholic church and pretty much every other religion on this planet and I totally agree that all religions stances towards gays needs to change.

It still does not negate the positive changes in the church he has made already if by nothing other than example.

Just like i recognize the benefits of Obamacare while also realizing it is not the best or even the most desirable solution to healthcare.

This pope has done more in his first year to make positive changes to the church than any in my lifetime and it is about time it happened and I applaud him for the changes he is making.

I guess we will have to just agree to disagree.

[theHandpuppet]

160. It's more than sad.. it seems desperate

I think you might find this article of interest:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2013/12/30/pope_francis_opposes_gay_adoption_why_should_we_care.html

[B Calm]

20. 1000 times better than the Nazi Pope

[Squinch]

27. Nazi Popes never work out well.

That guy creeped me out.

[Bluenorthwest]

39. Benedict wrote extensively about poverty, Francis has better PR folks, same rap.

The gap between rich and poor has become more marked, even in the most economically developed nations. This is a problem which the conscience of humanity cannot ignore, since the conditions in which a great number of people are living are an insult to their innate dignity and as a result are a threat to the authentic and harmonious progress of the world community
In this context, fighting poverty requires attentive consideration of the complex phenomenon of globalization. This is important from a methodological standpoint, because it suggests drawing upon the fruits of economic and sociological research into the many different aspects of poverty. Yet the reference to globalization should also alert us to the spiritual and moral implications of the question, urging us, in our dealings with the poor, to set out from the clear recognition that we all share in a single divine plan: we are called to form one family in which all – individuals, peoples and nations – model their behaviour according to the principles of fraternity and responsibility.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/peace/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20081208_xlii-world-day-peace_en.html


It amazes me that people think this is a new area of talk for Popes.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

100. the reason why more 'support' this pope over the last

((using support in '' since i don't think its the best word but can't think of a better at the moment))

is that while the last one did speak out on some of the topics he did nothing to actually show he meant what he said(aka where he lived, what he wore etc etc etc) whereas the current pope does not want to live in the main 'house' that popes usually stay at, what he wears/uses is of cheaper materials, heck even the cross he uses is more humble then what most earlier popes have used. thats without going into him cracking down on wasteful spending by bishops and such(and unless I'm wrong he lived fairly much the same way before he became pope which to me signify that he actually means what he says rather then mouths it after becoming pope as PR)

[1000words]

21. Public Relations

"The aim of public relations by a company often is to persuade the public, investors, partners, employees, and other stakeholders to maintain a certain point of view about it, its leadership, products, or of political decisions. Common activities include speaking at conferences, winning industry awards, working with the press, and employee communication."

[eShirl]

22. Most amazing to me is, he hasn't come down w/ a mysteriously BAD cold.

(yes, that was alluding to the short term of John Paul I)

[anti partisan]

23. Looks like he's also taking a stand against anti-gay craziness

http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/pope-francis%E2%80%99-representative-uganda-concerned-new-anti-gay-law291213

He's the best Pope in my lifetime for sure.

[Bluenorthwest]

40. Francis has not said a single word to oppose the law now passed in Uganda

The 'concerned' representative claimed they had not heard about it until the morning it was voted on.
Francis could still and should still speak out. But he has not done so. Uganda is 42% RCC and it is the largest religious group in Uganda, next being Anglicans with 40%
Francis has not said a word, did not say a word in all of these months that this horrific bill has been debated. He could at any time say something, and he could have at any time in the past.
This law has been debated since 2008. In 2010, Francis was running around calling marriage equality a plan of the devil, destructive to God. So he has contributed to the climate that leads to such horrors and he knows it.

[Laughing Mirror]

91. A stand for more and more anti-gay craziness, you mean

Do make it a point to always read the fine print.

‘The targeting of the sinner, not the sin, is the core flaw of the proposed Bill. The introduction of the death penalty and imprisonment for homosexual acts targets people rather than seeking to counsel and to reach out in compassion to those who need conversion, repentance, support, and hope.’

Please explain how conversion and repentance of LGBT people under the support, hope and counsel of the Catholic church is taking a stand in favor of LGBT people. It sounds like more misery to me.

How about these goddamn churches, Catholic and Anglican and Evangelical alike, just leave us the fuck alone. We want to live our lives without interference from them. We do not believe we are sinners, no matter what these churches try to hallucinate about us.

We don't want to convert to your awful superstitions about us. We don't need any repentance. We want you to stop persecuting us.

So Pope, you can keep your blessed support and hope. We know what it really is. We know what you really think of us. Because it's all there in the fine print and the way you actually treat us.

[nomorenomore08]

159. I can't really disagree with that. I do think organized religion should butt the hell out of these

matters. And considering the harm done, even very recently, it'll take a lot more than Francis's "statements" up till now to truly redeem the Church in my eyes. I want to be optimistic, but I have to be a realist as well - being unrealistic helps no one.

[DebJ]

24. #8 does it for me. Actions with no words at all. nt

[JustAnotherGen]

30. Me too

I did not know he did that.

That is my calling (feeding of the hungry) as Unitarian Universalist.

I'm not a perfect progressive. Ask me about criminals and murderers and rapists and one will find out just how narrow and draconian I can be - but every human being is owed food. We are all entitled to that.

And like many of us (except when I'm appealing to DU to give to their local food bank) - he did it quietly and as one human being to another.

Actually many people who can afford to do it that are so-called liberals and progressives on their own personal issues that relate to them . . . Won't even look a homeless person in the eye or give a wink and a smile of encouragement to the person ahead of them in line utilizing their well deserved yet recently reduced SNAP benefits. So he's better than them as far as I'm concerned.

[meti57b]

29. He is truly a mensch!

[idwiyo]

31. "Pope Francis 'shocked' by gay adoption says Bishop of Malta"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-shocked-by-gay-adoption-says-bishop-of-malta-9030505.html

Bishop Scicluna said The Pope was “shocked” by the Maltese Civil Unions Bill that aims to legalise gay adoption.
“When I raised the issue that’s worrying me as a bishop [gay adoption] he encouraged me to speak out," said Bishop Scicluna.
...
However, as Argentina’s Cardinal Bergoglio, he condemned gay adoption and marriage, but supported civil partnerships as the lesser of two evils.

In other news, the Pope gave his blessing via a video link from the Vatican to a Mass in Madrid that supported government moves to tighten restrictions on abortion in Spain.

The new abortion law would allow terminations only in the case of rape or when there is a serious health risk to the mother or foetus.

bolding is mine.

[WilliamPitt]

32. "He is making all the right people very uncomfortable, this pope is."

- Charles P. Pierce

[treestar]

33. Hope his behavior gives food for thought to the right wingers

who claim to be Christians.

[NYC Liberal]

34. And yet he believes homosexuality is a mental disorder, that adoption by gay couples

is an evil plot from Satan, that men are superior to women, is anti-choice, and opposes the use of birth control.

The fact that "he said not to judge gays" is on this list proves the writer wasn't paying attention. He doesn't judge gays because he believes homosexuality is a mental disorder. We can't help ourselves. Gays are good people...IF they remain celibate and deny their sexuality.

He has made no substantive changes to any important Church policies (not because change is slow, but because he agrees with them as they are). Doing a few photo-ops ("taking a selfie" on the list of reasons he's a "progressive"? Really?) and repeating long-held Church lines on economic issues do not trump his anti-gay, anti-women beliefs.

[Vashta Nerada]

37. Hater.

+1000

[Egnever]

55. Perhaps

So does a large portion of the planet. He seems to be working on that and even if it is teeny weenie baby steps i applaud him for it.

I would also argue that this is a substantive change to important church policies as well.

The Catholic Church has been rocked in recent years by allegations and admissions of child abuse by members of the Church. Pope Francis became the first Pope to take effective action against such atrocities. He ammended Vatican law to make sexual abuse of children a crime, and he also established a committee to fight abuse.

As is this when it comes to women.

During the service, he broke tradition by washing the feet of women and Muslims.

If you think the catholic church is going to turn on a dime your are delusional. That doesn't take away from a pope who in many areas is light years ahead of the last guy.

[NYC Liberal]

59. He's not working on it. The policies won't be changing because he agrees with them.

He has stated as much many times. So your insisting that "change is slow" is irrelevant, because he isn't going to change the policies I've mentioned.

Francis is attempting to whitewash his and the Church's bigotry by deflecting attention to other things. The photo-ops? They are distractions. Wow! He washed a woman's feet! That totally makes up for his anti-choice, anti-contraception, misogynist policies!

"He's Catholic, what do you expect?" is not a legitimate response to criticisms of his bigoted beliefs.

[Egnever]

75. Yes it is all a sinister plot to divert attention

[Bluenorthwest]

116. Organizations facing intense legal and public image problems often seek to divert

attention and construct a more approval to counter the negative stories. There are untold millions spent on this, it is an entire industry without which politics, showbiz and religion would collapse.
Yes, Francis and the RCC have long and often used LGBT issues as a smokescreen to distract from thier own problems. They pose as holy and pure when they are actually shuffling rapists about to keep the staffing problems at bay. Tim Dolan paid off some of those priests, then he lied about it, then he got caught lying and he's still a 'Cardinal'. Dolan rails against gay rights, against equality. Of course he does, it serves him to point fingers and shout sinner as loudly as he can, anything to drown out the screams of the victims.

[eqfan592]

134. If a positive PR campaign capable of suckering in progressives is a "sinister plot," then yes.

Little in that list makes the man worthy of the level of praise being shown him, given his position.

[Egnever]

137. Sadly the reason he is getting praise for it

is because the previous people in his position in my lifetime totaly sucked at almost everything in that list.

[eqfan592]

140. Oh really?

His position in poverty is almost identical to the previous popes, and besides saying Catholics shouldn't be as vocal on certain issues, he's done nothing to change the churches position on bigotry and misogyny, as well as contraception.

But he DOES have a better PR guy.

[Egnever]

142. Yes really!

he doesnt just hold the position he lives the position. His predecessors not so much.

[MellowDem]

35. The Pope is a terrible person...

a moral dunce. The praise of him on here is sickening.

Religious privilege is suffocating on this site.

[NYC Liberal]

38. "Religious privilege" is right.

If it were Senator Francis or President Francis, how many here would be praising him the same way?

[kwassa]

47. What religious privilege?

You're just upset that your criteria are not everyone's criteria.

Your belief that the Pope is a terrible person is not one that is widely held.

[Bradical79]

48. Good examples were given above

People like yourself simply choose to ignore them. It's called willful ignorance.

[kwassa]

50. Nope. I'm looking at the big picture.

The Pope is trying to reform an ancient and highly resistant institution. He has just started. I'm very interested to see how far he can take it. He is under enormous restrictions, and culture change is very difficult. Some people here are asking things of him that he could not possibly deliver yet.

He is also attempting to model what good Christian behavior is for his fellow bishops and priests, and what the church should be about.

[Bradical79]

56. And his idea of what a good Christian is

Directly harms a lot of people. Which are the examples given.

[Egnever]

58. True

But again this does not negate the fact that this guy is a big positive change for the office of pope in many areas.

And this part of this new pope gives me hope that change is coming there as well.

Pope Francis has stated several times that the Church has no right to interfere spiritually in the lives of gays and lesbians. Though Francis maintained the right of the Church to express opinions on homosexuality, he believed that Christians should not judge or ridicule. This led to The Advocate, a gay rights magazine, naming Francis the 'single most influential person of 2013 on the lives of LGBT people.'

[Bradical79]

62. Sure

As far as Popes go, it's a big step up. I don't mind that sort of acknowledgement. Its when he is pushed as some sort of great progressive paragon on a Democratic message board that I get bothered. Because it is an outright lie and religious propaganda.

[kwassa]

74. Pope Francis is a great progressive paragon, in the context of the Catholic Church.

That is how he is being viewed, within the context that he operates in.

[eqfan592]

138. Even in that context he's not a progressive.

And if we are to praise people based on that sort of context, then I look forward to your gushing praise for various members of the republican party who would similarly qualify.

[NYC Liberal]

63. He doesn't judge us because he believes we are mentally ill.

And he believes that we should not be allowed to adopt children - that doing so is child abuse and a Satanic plot.

The Advocate was full of shit, and the many angry comments from their readers support that view.

[eqfan592]

135. Actually, you're completely ignoring the big picture.

The big picture is that little of substance has changed, and that this positive pr campaign has effectively diverted the rightful criticism of the church on many very important issues.

[MellowDem]

70. Religious leaders are given different criteria...

That is my problem. Any other leader of a secular organization with the Pope's exact same views would be deemed a hateful extremist who just happens to agree with liberals on one issue, and for completely different and immoral reasons.

And we would be right judging someone like that. But religion gives people a pass.

Most people on this site have far better morals and more sophistication and a more open mind than the Pope, yet he is praised to high heaven as some sort of exemplar of progressive values.

The worst part is that those that praise him tend to want to ignore outright the root of his ideology, even on economics, because it's the same moral reasoning that drives his bigotry of gays and women.

[kwassa]

72. Different people have different criteria, right here on DU.

The idea that there is a single monolithic progressive view is a myth, judging by the heat of the debates that take place here.

To those of DU who are of the Catholic faith, this man is wildly progressive, simply by the way he is living his life. For those who have no religious belief, they measure him with a different yardstick, judging him solely on his stance, dictated by the church, on same-sex marriage and the roles of women in the church.

We don't know how open-minded Pope Francis is, yet. He has been surprising, and he may have more surprises in store.

What do you see as the root of his ideology that is so offensive to you?

[MellowDem]

87. The Bible...

Is a terribly regressive piece of work. The god of the Bible is a murderous tyrant that punishes people for eternity. And that is the basis of everything the Pope believes.

[kwassa]

111. The Bible is a complicated piece of work.

The God in the Bible is also loving, merciful, and just, and full of forgiveness. This is the side of the Bible that Pope Francis emulates, and the side that most see as relevant to their lives.

[MellowDem]

117. It's not complicated, it's completely flawed...

Full of inconsistency and contradiction. The only love god exhibits is conditional love, which isn't love at all IMHO.

God cannot be merciful, just, or full of forgiveness if he punishes people eternally for finite crimes, and some of the crimes, like not believing, are not justifiable reasons anyways.

God slaughters millions of people, including babies, in the bible. He sanctions slavery and rape. How is that god loving again?

Beyond that, the Pope believes in god based on no evidence, and that the bible is his word, again, on no evidence. This is a very terrible way to find the truth of anything.

[Arugula Latte]

118. It's all mythology though.

It's sad that people regard the Bible as anything other than stories on par with tales of Zeus or satyrs or mermaids or cyclops or leprechauns.

[840high]

155. My God does not punish.

[MellowDem]

158. Then you don't worship the god of the Bible... nt

[Egnever]

76. Ohh for fucks sake

No one is ignoring the fact that he is the leader of the catholic church that has many stances that are totaly regressive or outright repugnant.

But I myself as a person who left organized religion many many years ago because I couldn't stand the intolerance find this guy to be a refreshing change.

Doesnt mean i think the catholic church is suddenly cured of all its bad stances.

[AtheistCrusader]

88. The intolerance isn't over by a long shot.

In fact, it's barely changed at all.

[NYC Liberal]

106. Even his good positions are only held because he believes God commands it

under the threat of eternal torture.

I prefer people who hold their liberal compassionate positions because of logic, reason, and personal experience.

[kwassa]

112. How do you know what he believes?

Did he express this eternal torture concept someplace?

[NYC Liberal]

114. Yes. It's called Hell and is a doctrine of the Church.

[kwassa]

119. but what does Pope Francis believe? doctrine or not?

[NYC Liberal]

121. Pope Francis believes in hell, unless you are claiming he rejects a central doctrine of the

Church that has been affirmed by every pope throughout history. Quite an extraordinary claim. I hope you have some evidence.

Francis said same-sex marriage was a plot by Satan. Do you think he believes in satan but not in hell?

[kwassa]

125. What he believes in his heart and what he expresses might be different.

You don't know what he believes, exactly, and neither do I.

Spiritual belief is ultimately personal and subjective, no matter how rigid the doctrine.

[NYC Liberal]

126. If he doesn't believe in hell, then he is not a Catholic.

It is one of the core tenents of the religion

[kwassa]

130. Sorry, you don't get to decide it, try as you might.

from a summary in a survey by the National Catholic Reporter.

http://ncronline.org/news/catholics-america/religion-and-political-affiliation

And they are able to do this in good conscience, as 85 percent of both Republicans and Democrats agree that one of the things most meaningful to them is that you can disagree with church teachings and still be loyal Catholics.

[MellowDem]

143. So he's a liar then...

So either he means what he says or he lies and does not, neither are good reflections on his moral character.

[amuse bouche]

109. yep

Couldn't agree more

[Beacool]

139. Really?

[MellowDem]

141. He thinks Hillary can never be a priest...

And thinks the devil is behind marriage equality.

Really

[mmonk]

36. Recommended.

No comment.

[egduj]

46. Truly a good person.

[Bradical79]

49. Maybe, time will tell

Washing feet, giving nice speeches, and feeding the homeless in secret don't make up for the truly horrible actions of his organization or his support of life destroying policies in other nations, but he will be Pope for awhile.

[Egnever]

52. Of course not

And no one said it did.

If you shoot down every person who starts to bring change because everything isn't changed to your liking instantly you will never get what you want.

Change happens slowly and this pope is off to a great start. He has a lot of work to do to be sure but I and many others are tickled pink that he seems to be working on many issues we all should be behind.

[Bradical79]

53. Didnt say everything should happen right away

But some of what he said work directly against causes many of us care about, and support regressive policy. So his statements on economic policy are positive. Other actions, are quite the opposite.

[Drew Richards]

57. To all you pope haters. You act like he is an absolute leader that can change church doctrine

With a wave of his hand..

This just shows bow little you know or care...

Before any pope can declare an edict that changes church doctrine or orthodoxy it must MUST be voted on and passed by a super majority from the conclave of bishops...the Pope is not an absolute ruler and if he is not to your liking because of your own personal desires well...give it time...Church doctrine changes at a glacial pace.

[Bluenorthwest]

67. No, he's just exactly like all the other anti gay, anti choice religious yeppers. Dime a dozen.

They all have excuses and reasons, all bigots have them, Francis is no better than the worst of them, a Pat Robertson, a James Hagee, Scott Lively, he's the same animal, only far richer.

[Orrex]

68. True dat.

Look how many centuries it took for them to issue an official mea culpa re: Galileo.

Let's hope that they're a little quicker this time around.

[AtheistCrusader]

73. And the things from his own mouth?

Equating the pro-same sex marriage movement in Argentina as a plan by Satan to destroy the family unit?

[BarackTheVote]

81. There's a reason why Popes take a new name when they're elected

Peter was Simon, Christ gave him a new name and a new mission and a new authority. I'm not saying that a person is transformed, but it is an opportunity for a new beginning, and so far, this is an excellent start.

[AtheistCrusader]

86. I'm a big believer in redemption, actually.

But not through some supernatural hooba-wooba. Especially since it harmed people who don't even SHARE his faith at all. It takes effort, honest, hard working effort, by the person in question, to walk back the shit he pulled. To correct the INJURY he perpetrated.

His 'do not judge' comments in no way atone for, or correct the perceptions he himself helped foster, let alone the core dogma he represents today.

He owns that, and in no way has he atoned for it. He made some nice noises about a side issue, and skirted it entirely.

If he only influenced members of his church, that would be one thing. After all, membership in the church is elective at the individual level. But no, the church, and the catholic voters, at his exhortation, have injured people outside their faith, predicated on their proprietary dogma. As long as they engage in legislation, lobbying, as long as they work to STRIP RIGHTS AWAY from non-members of the church, I will keep pointing it out, every time he or his church, or some other member of the RCC pops up for a pleasant photo op.

[Thinkingabout]

85. My question to those opposed to the RCC position on homosexual activity, contraceptives, etc

are you willing to accept their position? If you are not then do not expect the rest of the world to accept your position. I am quiet liberal and try to allow all to have their positions but dislike the hatred towards others who fail to follow your position. Would you be happy for the hate to be directed to you.

[AtheistCrusader]

89. I get it all the time from the right wing.

Therein lies the problem.

This is Democratic Underground. Not Centrist Underground. Not Right-of-Center on most issues Underground.

All of the tenets of the RCC that we find offensive are not just fucking opinions. Not just positions. Misogyny IS NOT A FUCKING POSITION WORTY OF RESPECT or even tolerance, in a mealy-mouthed 'role reversal' objection.

[Thinkingabout]

92. Do you have any tolerance?

[AtheistCrusader]

93. For misogyny, homophobia, anti-choice positions and the people that work day and night

spending millions to codify those things in our legislatures?

FUCK NO I DO NOT HAVE ANY TOLERANCE.

[Thinkingabout]

95. Then you have given the answer, the answer is no, this issue is not going to change,

And given intolerance with so many there is not a desire to have a meeting of the minds.

BTW, yes this is DU, it is not a my way or the highway, this is RW methods.

[AtheistCrusader]

96. You're right. The RCC is not going to change. That's why I keep bringing these issues up whenever

someone posts a pathetically transparent PR piece for the RCC.

If you post something on DU about an institution that codifies things like sexism, homophobia, anti-family-planning, expect a negative reaction. Until you're posting something about how the church has abrogated those positions, and apologized for centuries of ABUSE against HUMAN BEINGS, you're wasting your breath posting PR fluff pieces here, expecting no one will have anything negative to say in response. That someone won't shine a light on the church's right hand, when you post how wonderful the actions of its left hand are.

They spend MILLIONS opposing democratic and progressive ideals nationwide, worldwide in fact. They are attacking the ACA in court right now, putting an entire section of the bill at risk, and targeting the reproductive freedom of women in the process.

That is FUCKING VILE.

[AtheistCrusader]

97. I don't 'meet' people halfway on basic civil rights.

That ship has fucking sailed.

You shit on women in my presence? I'm going to speak up.
You shit on gay people in my presence? I'm going to speak up.
You tell dying people they can't meet their fate on their own terms, under their own power, and choose the hour of their passing? I'm going to speak up.
You tell women they MUST incubate unwanted pregnancies, regardless of the source? I'm going to speak up.
You tell women they can't have coverage for, or access to contraceptives? I'm going to speak up.
You tell same-sex couples they can't marry or adopt children, that advocating for the same is the WORK OF THE DEVIL? I'm going to speak up.


You'll get no silence from me on these issues. If you don't like what I have to say, tough shit. If you think ANY of those issues are going to fly on a left-of-center site in any capacity, you've got another thing coming.

[Thinkingabout]

98. You can have whatever opinion you want, I am entitled to my opinion. I do not practice TP

methods. From your name I just wonder why in the hell do you care what the RCC or any religion has to say about any issue. If you do not want to hear warm thoughts on the RCC, the Pope or other similar issues then keep your opinion and deal with what you read. If it is not important to you the Pope is showing compassion towards the ill and poor, then don't expect the RCC or Pope to show compassion to your issues.

[AtheistCrusader]

99. Because the RCC spends millions of dollars and directs votes toward lobbying efforts on these issues

That's why I care. Like I said, twice already.

The RCC's position on these issues isn't something that just applies to them inside their own happy little electively-inclusive group. They apply these positions to others, via legislation.

Don't pretend I don't have a dog in this fight just because I am not a catholic.

"The Coalition Against Assisted Suicide spent $1,678,796 on the campaign.[7]

The six largest donors were:[7]
Connecticut Knights of Columbus: $250,000
Knights of Columbus: $75,250
Washington State Catholic Conference: $70,394
Archdiocese of Seattle: $55,000
Catholic Health Association: $50,000
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops: $30,000 "

That's how much catholic orgs spent ensuring my father would spend about 6 agonizing months slowly dying of cancer, after he asked to be allowed to end his life and be at peace. That's the real world consequences of the RCC's 'opinion' on these issues.

I think it's great the pope 'shows compassion towards the ill and the poor', except the pope doesn't, when out of the other side of his mouth opposes things like death with dignity, or family planning. Both issues are directly relevant to relieving the ill and the poor. The MOST ill, unrecoverably ill people, and the poorest of families both. Both of whom are HARMED by the RCC's position and lobbying efforts.

There is a direct correlation between poverty and lack of family planning. A lack of family planning that the RCC advocates, and lobbies for.
http://www.globalissues.org/article/206/poverty-and-population-growth-lessons-from-our-own-past

[Thinkingabout]

102. I don't care how the RCC spends their money or don't spend their money. Can I agree on the

Pope's compassion towards the ill and poor. This is something which needs discussion, he is in position to do so, he also speaks of peace, maybe these issues are not important to you but they are to me. You can not brow beat everyone to race your race, your crusade, I have not bowed down the TP method thinkers and will not now. This is my crusade.

[AtheistCrusader]

108. That is incredibly disingenuous.

It is not 'browbeating' to point out institutionalized homophobia, sexism, and other forms of bigotry, in an entity like the RCC. It's a stark, bare, naked fact, open for all to see in the plain light of day.

The pope's position toward the ill and the poor is not what you purport it to be, as long as the RCC, the organization he heads, spends millions every year opposing relief for those two groups in the most basic of methods. Family planning is a cheap, easy, effective means to lift people out of poverty. For the people so ill they are literally dying in slow motion, and suffering mightily for it, opposing elective, self-euthanasia is not compassionate. The church works to legislatively deny compassion that I would show my dog, for mature, reasonable humans who have no alternatives left to them. Who have nothing but months of excruciating pain, and no hope of cure or relief, nothing but a future of degrading quality of life, misery, dependency and eventual death.

That is not compassion.

Opposing the church on these matters is not 'tea party' tactics. This is not one or two little issues. These are core social, and civil rights issues.

You pretty much just ignored everything I said, or you wouldn't so disingenuously imply I do not consider these issues important. I can hear exactly what you said. Don't pretend you can slip that past and try and make this about my not caring about the ill and the poor. I held my father's hand when he finally passed, DON'T FUCKING TELL ME I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE POOR because you are incapable or unwilling to understand what BASIC HUMAN COMPASSION actually means.

You cannot claim the pope is compassionate toward the ill and the poor while he maintains his legislative advocacy positions on these issues. The RCC is ACTIVELY INJURING the ill and the poor on these issues. That's not compassion. Telling one person to suffer and die slowly, while kissing someone else's foot, is not compassion. Sorry.

[Thinkingabout]

110. You are browbeating me, it will not work, I have my opinions and will not succumb to the

tactics the TP members uses, it is not all or nothing with me. Try your tactics on someone else.
In fact your tactics is having the opposite effect on me, I am beginning to think you are as radical as the religious right. Call me whatever you like, if it fulfills your life then you are lacking in many areas, I have a happy life, I live and let others live.

[AtheistCrusader]

113. Correcting your attempts to misrepresent me, is browbeating you?

This is not an 'all or nothing' popularity contest. This pope unambiguously holds that same-sex couples adopting children is "discrimination against children".

That is not the compassion you spoke of. That is an outright homophobic position. (Which he also bolstered with a claim that attempts to legalize such things as a move by satan himself)


You might feel like I'm browbeating you about that, but if you check your premise, I think you'll find you're feeling hemmed in because there IS no denying that this is true. Homophobia is homophobia. It is clearly defined and easy to spot. This was a prime example of it.

You are caught between the explicit tenets of a religious dogma, and a modern civil rights issue. I bet that's really uncomfortable. I'm sympathetic. Still, the issue remains on the table. In what way is a proponent of that dogma 'compassionate'? Or the other two issues I highlighted? When you include all elements of the issue of being poor, or truly, terminally ill, the word compassion doesn't apply to the RCC's position.

[AtheistCrusader]

94. It is not 'intolerance' to tell people who are hurting other people to STOP hurting other people

Misogyny hurts women.
Homophobia hurts gay people.
Interference in family planning, quite apart from (but probably motivated by, if you think about it) misogyny, hurts women and families in general.
Prohibiting end-of-life choice hurts people suffering terribly from terminal diseases for which there is no cure and no escape besides death.

And in all of these things, the church instructs followers, marshals votes, and spends MILLIONS lobbying to deny rights to people who are NOT EVEN MEMBERS OF THE RCC.

No, I have no tolerance for that. None at all. And it is not 'intolerance' as a negative to stand up and oppose it.

[NYC Liberal]

101. My position doesn't force them to accept my beliefs.

Their position forces their beliefs on others.

Supporting same-sex marriage doesn't force anyone to get married.
Opposing same-sex marriage prohibits me from getting married.

Being pro-choice doesn't force anyone to have abortions.
Being anti-choice forces all women to go through pregnancy and give birth.

Supporting birth control doesn't force all women to use it.
Opposing birth control prohibits women who want to use it from doing so.

Get it?

[Thinkingabout]

103. Exactly, these are issues which will be decided through other means in the US, my opinion

does not run hand-in-hand with the RCC or the Pope, but compassion towards the poor and ill is important to me, I welcome also his prayers for peace. I will not crusade against the Pope but will give him credit for the good he is doing.

[NYC Liberal]

104. Except his policies do great harm to the poor and ill.

Women's rights are tied very strongly to economic status.

Opposing the right to die on one's own terms is not compassion toward the ill.

[Thinkingabout]

105. Would you rather he does not have compassion to the poor and ill.

[NYC Liberal]

107. No, I'd rather he does. Because right now he does not.

[Vashta Nerada]

120. Why is it okay to like a guy who opposes homosexuality, access to contraceptives...

allowing women to be in power in the church, etc. on a Democratic website?

It goes against everything we stand up for, politically.

And addressing your post "to all you pope haters" isn't going to bring anybody to your side.

[NYC Liberal]

122. Some have gone further than just writing off the bigotry and ignoring it.

Worse is when people actually claim the opposite: that not only is Francis not a bigot, but that he is actually gay-friendly!

[Vashta Nerada]

123. Has this site gone completely nuts?

[NYC Liberal]

124. Sometimes I think so.

Opposing bigotry and misogyny is now "hating". If we don't like bigotry, WE are the intolerant ones.

[Vashta Nerada]

128. That's what I've been told before.

[kwassa]

129. Because 57% of Catholics identify as Democratic? A majority of Catholics voted for Obama?

Nah, that couldn't be it.

If you are actually interested in learning about the political views of American Catholics, which I sincerely doubt, here is the results of a survey on their views. It also details how closely they follow Church positions.

http://ncronline.org/news/catholics-america/religion-and-political-affiliation

[Vashta Nerada]

131. You totally ignored my comment.

I was talking about the Pope himself, not the Catholics. I don't care what the Catholics think. I'm wondering why Democrats on a Democratic website give a shit about a homophobic and misogynistic Pope.

[kwassa]

132. How do you know he is homophobic and misogynistic?

Detail it and prove it with links.

and frankly, you should care what your fellow Democrats think.

[Vashta Nerada]

133. How do I know?

He's the head of the RCC, FFS.

Goddamn.

Do I really have to provide links?



I didn't say anything about not caring what Democrats think. I said I don't care what Catholics think. Big difference.

[kwassa]

145. Catholics are Democrats.

No difference.

You're doing your very best to offend Catholic Democrats.

[Vashta Nerada]

146. Hypothetical question:

What would happen if someone came to DU and posted a thread saying "gay marriage is a destruction on God's plan" or posted a thread saying "women should not be allowed access to contraception or abortions"?

What would happen to that thread and that poster?

[kwassa]

148. You veer off-point.

as such a statement does not necessarily have anything to do with being Catholic.

but here is how American Catholics feel about those subjects:

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/institutes-and-centers/polling-institute/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=1961

American Catholics support same-sex marriage 60 - 31 percent, compared to the 56 - 36 percent support among all U.S. adults.

..................................................................

Catholic opinion on abortion is similar of the opinions of all American adults:

16 percent of Catholics say abortion should be legal in all cases, compared to 19 percent of all Americans;
36 percent of Catholics say abortion should be legal in most cases, compared to 34 percent of all Americans;
21 percent of Catholics say abortion should be illegal in most cases, compared to 23 percent of all Americans;
21 percent of Catholics say abortion should be illegal in all cases, compared to 16 percent of all Americans.

"On the two issues that have prompted some pulpit thundering, same-sex marriage and abortion, Catholics are right in line, or even a little ahead, of their non-Catholic neighbors," Carroll said.

[Vashta Nerada]

149. I ask those questions because that's what the Pope believes:

On Sunday, Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, the archbishop of Buenos Aires, had declared it (gay marriage) a “destructive attack on God’s plan.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/14/world/americas/14argentina.html?_r=2&

I'm pretty sure he'd be PPR'ed if he started a discussion thread that said that.

And I haven't been talking about Catholics. I've been talking about the Pope all along. You're the one veering off point.

[kwassa]

151. I am not sure if that is what he believes, or what he felt compelled to say by his position

and the politics within the Catholic Church. What is very clear is he is really trying to de-emphasize now a focus on these issues. That is what he can do now. This tends to make me believe that he really doesn't believe in it himself. That is the message he is conveying by recent statements he has made on the subject.

That is how most Catholics, and most others, interpret the words of Pope Francis.

[Vashta Nerada]

152. It doesn't matter.

He said it.

[kwassa]

153. It matters to me, and millions of others.

Your mileage might vary.

[LiberalElite]

61. You knew

you were sticking your neck out by posting this right?

[Egalitarian Thug]

65. Just like any other carnival barker, this huckster has lots to say,

but action is a carrot you're promised once you pay the admission fee and go inside.

[PennsylvaniaMatt]

71. He makes me proud to be a Catholic!

The problem is when my local pastor is more Conservative and hardline than the Pope himself. My priest can learn a lesson or two from the Holy Father!

[Jamastiene]

79. I bet Obama did way more.

This Pope IS trying. For that, I have to give him credit. Maybe he will change things somewhat, hopefully.

[BarackTheVote]

82. The Pope took away the legitimacy of every Catholic Tea Bagger

Santorum, O'Reiley, numerous other RW shills proclaiming their Catholicism up down and sideways have been effectively stymied. The Pope is giving a really good example of what a Christian should be, and it ain't them. People in the pulpits will take notice. My grandma, a life-long Republican, who had been watching Fox News since the beginning, turned the channel off completely after Bill O made a disparaging comment about Pope Benedict. She went on to vote for President Obama. This Pope-bashing Fox has been doing, this "with all due respect, HOLINESS" song and dance--it won't play well. It will turn off A LOT of Catholics. Francis has hurt the religious right in this country badly, and I think he'll continue to do so.

[Jamastiene]

84. More power to him, then.

I wasn't aware he had hurt the religious right in this country. If he's doing that, he's doing something that sorely NEEDS to be done. More power to him.

[madrchsod]

83. a few steps on a long journey...

[Luminous Animal]

90. The PR of a misogynist institution is in overdrive!

No really ladies! Stop your bitchin' because we have a dreamy Pope!

So looking forward to him washing the feet of a prostitute!

Rope a dope with a pope.

[Bluenorthwest]

115. The casual deception is sad. The Pope is the World's leader in opposing LGBT rights.

He is unsurpassed. It is offensive to claim that a man who judges us as unworthy of equal rights, of marriages, of families does not judge us at all. What a self serving bit of fraud that is.

[Beacool]

136. I like him too.

But the Pope haters will never be assuaged.

[theHandpuppet]

157. As a gay woman...

I want to thank you so much. It really warms my heart that you are so fond of an unabashed misogynist and homophobe. I never realized that being offended by such bigotry makes one a "hater". How incredibly ironic. Remind us again why you must not care how many people here are incredibly insulted by your support of someone who is against gay adoption, marriage rights, equality for women, contraception and reproduction rights. More and more I question whether DU has regressed from what was once a progressive forum.

[davidthegnome]

144. It's a tough call for me.

I have to wonder how I would feel if I were a homosexual. If this man suggested that it would be child abuse for me and someone I loved to adopt a child - some kind of satanic plot. I don't think I would like him very much.

Yet he has done and said good things, things that I agree with. I do not expect any man to be perfect - but I do expect him not to be cruel, not to deliberately promote ignorance and hatred based upon dogma and superstition.

This pope knows the difference between right and wrong. This pope is well aware that there are many children in this world that are desperately in need. This pope must surely know that there are many homosexual couples who could provide a good, safe and loving home for a child who otherwise would not have one. Does he truly believe that there is a Satanic plot to encourage homosexuals adopting children? You know... I really doubt it. One thing leaders often do is play to the masses, to the crowd. Even those who make waves will often maintain the pretense of more traditional stances in order to appeal to the masses. Obama's reversal on gay marriage, is one example of this.

I very much would like to be able to say that this pope is a good man, that I admire him. Yet... the most I can say is that he is better than any I have heard of during my life-time. No, I do not believe it is too much to expect for any rational, thinking man of this age... to expect him to be more open-minded, intellectually honest and kind.

In a very real sense, he is one of the world's last true Monarchs. If he wished to let women join the priesthood, priests to become married, if he wished to officially change the church's stance in regards to homosexuality... he and he alone could do these things. Until he does, I will not say that he is a good man and I will not admire him. I will say that he is better than the last.

[Chrom]

147. Pope Francis Drew 6.6 million to vatican in 2013, 3 times more than benedict

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2014/01/03/pope-francis-drew-6-6-million-to-vatican-in-2013-three-times-more-than-benedict/

[theHandpuppet]

156. Is this like the third time you've posted this?

Broken record. Time to take it to the Religion Forum.

[nomorenomore08]

161. Those are all good things, for the most part.

But the problem with #7 ("He personally called and consoled a victim of rape&quot is what if the victim had become pregnant via the rape? According to Church doctrine she would then be forced to carry to term, whether she wants to or not.