General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMan shoots self in buttocks in Brighton Home Depot with gun he was carrying
http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/viewart/20131227/NEWS01/312270014/Man-shoots-self-buttocks-Brighton-Home-Depot-gun-he-carryingBRIGHTON Authorities say a man accidentally shot himself in a home improvement store with the gun he was legally carrying.
WHMI-FM reports the 32-year-old man from the Livingston County community of Green Oak Township was shot in the buttocks Thursday evening at the Home Depot in Brighton. Police say it appears he was reaching for his wallet when he inadvertently grabbed the pistol and a shot fired.
The man was treated for minor injuries at a nearby hospital.
*******************************
Bwahaha!!! What a pain in the a&&!!!
Laf.La.Dem.
(2,943 posts)oops
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)Last edited Sun Dec 29, 2013, 11:48 AM - Edit history (1)
in a store that's what got me.
On edit I looked up Michigan law and you just can't do it a graveyard.. Says nothing about stores.
Well yippie yea ca ya.
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)TxDemChem
(1,918 posts)NBachers
(17,122 posts)pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)Happyhippychick
(8,379 posts)pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)magical thyme
(14,881 posts)are you anywhere near the end?
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Rosa Luxemburg
(28,627 posts)A lesson to be learned - never bring your loaded gun in your pocket to Home Depot
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)antiquie
(4,299 posts)GreatCaesarsGhost
(8,584 posts)pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)If one is going to claim to be a responsible gun owner and carry around guns ... one should be held accountable and actually be responsible ... and when you are not there needs to be consequences
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)Geeze.
Mercifully, no one was seriously injured (and I include the moron in the report)
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Accidents are accidents. What is jailing a man for a non-intentional act going to accomplish? If it actually stopped other accidents and human mistakes, we'd have jailed people for fender benders long ago.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)I would like to see charges filed (not looking for a jail term), fines, and the loss of the ability to carry a weapon in public.
It is not "jail" or no no consequences.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Charges should be used to punish crime and promote reform. Unless there is direct evidence that the man's conduct was grossly negligent, criminal charges in this case will accomplish neither. Criminal charges will likely end this guys chances at employment in many jobs. I don't care how much you may dislike concealed carry, the man doesn't deserve that. When I took my first firearm safety course in Conn., the guy giving it was a police officer and when he discussed accidental discharges, he indicated that even police officers have had them.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)(i agree I am very outspoken on my opposition to guns; however, I honestly do not believe holding someone responsible for this is over the top)
Down thread you used a car accident analogy. Car "accidents" happen ... there are penalties for those at fault (fault does not mean that you had the intention of doing it). Again, at no time has anyone (including me) asserted that CRIMINAL charges should be filed (and no one has advocated jail time anywhere).
If one is going to assert that owning and carrying guns are a right ... I would assume that there would be some responsibilities attached to that right. Preventing accidental discharge in public should be high on that list.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Charges implies criminal charges. The man may very well have his carry permit revoked. That is done via a non-court board in most states. Concealed carry is a privilege, not a right and can be revoked at any time. However, ownership of a firearm is a right and can only be removed by due process per the Fifth amendment.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)"The man may very well have his carry permit revoked. That is done via a non-court board in most states." (I have no idea what the actual case is in Michigan)
"However, ownership of a firearm is a right and can only be removed by due process per the Fifth amendment." ... is a board review considered due process of the 5th?
No one (not me) implied no gun ownership ... I clearly stated no guns carried in public for a specified period of time would be fitting and just (charges filed implied due process should be initiated) ... I also thinks civil fines would be appropriate.
I am assured over and over by folk (here) that own guns ... that guns don't accidentally discharge like this (except in the case of irresponsibility). Was there not some locking mechanism that could/ SHOULD have been engaged in order to prevent this.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)That is solely a privilege granted by permit in a locality or state. That can be revoked without court action. The man doesn't lose the gun, he just can't hide it under a coat and walk around in public.
Now there are some rules/exceptions provided for normal use of firearms. A hunter needs to be able to carry his rifle to the forest to hunt and a target shooter needs transport to the range. There are rules to do so by car with the firearms unloaded. In the case of the hunter, you will obviously need to open carry the rifle through the property. These provisions are inherent to a right to own firearms.
As for the accident, a lot of popular carry pistols use what is called a long pull trigger safety. The distance to pull is longer and the force required is higher. I personally dislike that design, and own none of that style (I also don't carry a pistol concealed and have no use for one). The problem with that design is it is too easy to snag a wallet corner on the trigger, not realize as you pull the wallet upward, and accidentally discharge the firearm.
northoftheborder
(7,572 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)We could refer you to the man's ass...
Police carry for a reason. The fact that accidental discharges occur amongst police officers does not equate to a reason for this dumbass to be carrying in a Home Depot.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)The reason that the man was legally carrying a concealed pistol has no bearing on the safety precautions he may have taken or not taken. Given that the back holster is a common carrying method, and many carry pistols only have a long pull trigger and no other safety, it may prove impossible to prove negligence in a court.
Not all accidents are due to negligence.
George II
(67,782 posts)NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Last I checked we don't jail stupid people. Being familiar with firearms, I believe the wallet corner likely snagged the trigger and the guy never knew as he tugged the wallet upward to pull it from the pocket. I'd attribute that to bad luck more than anything else.
mbperrin
(7,672 posts)do not know where their gun is nor the conditions under which it will fire (EVERY time!), they have no business carrying or owning any firearm or other dangerous item, steak knives and the like.
I'd like to see 90 days in jail, medium size fine $10,000-$20,000, say, and public ridicule for the rest of his life.
Concern for his employment? Why should I be? He has no concern for the safety of others nor his own, so why I would give a shit about him when he doesn't is beyond me.
I grew up around guns, owning guns, and I can assure you that if this happened when my dad was still alive, that a butt wound from a gun would be the least of my worries. He had paraphrased "you can't fix stupid" long before it became a movie line.
Immediate and public punishment with some gravity may, may, MAY make some other dumbass think for a moment about how a gun fires and to take measures to prevent those exact and particular circumstances from occurring. See? I'm an educator at heart, no matter how stupid or uncaring the pupil.
don't have a safety switch.
Skittles
(153,169 posts)he endangered himself and EVERYONE in the store because he is skeered of a boogie man
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Accidentally discharging a firearm IS negligence. It does not matter how the trigger was pulled. The Brighton city ordinances appear to be missing from Google's view but the majority of US cities prohibit the discharge of a firearm within city limits. It may exit somewhere, but I have yet to see an ordinance that provides for "accidental discharge". He may have been legally carrying, but he unlawfully discharged the weapon. It is quite possible he may not be charged, but there can be no doubt that he is guilty of firing a handgun within city limits.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Gee, lets make it a criminal offense to crash into another car, anywhere, including parking lots. And give automatic jail time to anyone who does. It doesn't matter if it was bad judgement on distance, a skid on ice, or another driver caused you to have to swerve and you hit another car. After all, the law is clear that hitting another car is the crime. Period. Child swings to door open rapidly and dents a door, kid goes to juvie and you to jail. Can't have those irresponsible parents out there can we?
No accidents or innocent mistakes in your world apparently.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Leaving the scene of a vehicle accident is a crime, anywhere (including parking lots). The accident itself, unless complicated by other circumstance, is not a crime. Discharging a firearm within city limits, unless excepted by strictly defined circumstance, is always a crime. It is not always charged, but it is always a crime, unless excepted (which never includes shooting oneself in the ass in a Home Depot).
Not sure where your jail fantasy comes from, no one has mentioned jail except for you.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)I was extending your absolute view on the discharge of a firearm to car accidents. Most localities I have lived in required the discharge to be "intentional".
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)or the equivalent. I have never read one that includes the concept of "intentional". I do not claim that there does not exist a United States community that looks kindly on random weapon fire, but I have never seen one.
And you were attempting to create a false equivalence by equating car accidents to discharges of firearms. Nothing equates them, there is no logical path from one to the other.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)You obviously didn't get it.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)You are forgiven for not being funny. Have a nice day.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)Nothing about "intention" that I see. Also the penalty is pretty light by most standards.
Sec. 13-2. Use and discharge of firearms on certain properties within the city.permanent link to this piece of content
(a) Definition. "Firearms" means gun, pistol, revolver, pellet gun, bb gun, air gun, shotgun, rifle, bow and arrow, cross bow or any other weapon.
(b) It shall be unlawful for any person to discharge any firearm, within an area of the city limits annexed prior to September 1, 1981; provided, that this section shall not be so construed as to prohibit the discharge of firearms:
(1) In any activity or by any person considered within the class of exemptions applicable under state statutes;
(2) In exhibitions, contests, or demonstrations conducted under conditions and supervision approved by the city council after application has been made to the city and permit has been issued;
(3) By duly qualified and commissioned peace officers in the performance of the official duties of their office;
(4) For the protection of a person or property in or about his home in accordance with the laws of the state; or
(c) It shall be unlawful for any person to discharge a firearm within an area annexed after September 1, 1981; provided, that this section shall not be so construed as to prohibit the discharge of firearms as follows:
(1) The firearm is a shotgun, air rifle or pistol, BB gun, or bow and arrow; and
a. Discharged on a tract of land of ten (10) acres or more;
b. Discharged more than one hundred fifty (150) feet from a residence or occupied building located on another property; and
c. In a manner not reasonably expected to cause a projectile to cross the boundary of the tract; or
(2) The firearm is a center fire or rim fire rifle or pistol of any caliber:
a. Discharged on a tract of land of fifty (50) acres or more;
b. More than three hundred (300) feet from a residence or occupied building located on another property; and
c. In a manner not reasonably expected to cause a projectile to cross the boundary of the tract.
(3) In any activity or by any person considered within the class of exemptions applicable under state statutes;
(4) In exhibitions, contests, or demonstrations conducted under conditions and supervision approved by the city council after application has been made to the city and permit has been issued;
(5) By duly qualified and commissioned peace officers in the performance of the official duties of their office; or
(6) For the protection of a person or property in or about his home in accordance with the laws of the state.
(d) Any person who violates the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a class C misdemeanor, and upon conviction thereof, shall be fined in any sum not to exceed five hundred dollars ($500.00).
edit: can't spell
blueamy66
(6,795 posts)What is a gun mainly used for?
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)I say providing food. I myself took one this year and enjoy the steaks and ground venison. Target shooting is the second most common use.
blueamy66
(6,795 posts)That's what I thought.
avebury
(10,952 posts)of community service having to speak to community groups and schools on the subject of gun safety. Let his humility be stretched out as long as possible.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)He endangered himself and others with his irresponsible handling of a fire arm.
I am surprised gun advocates would defend this. (acknowledging that I am as anti-gun as anyone) If I were advocating for guns i would state that this was not a responsible gun owner (as evidenced by his discharge of a firearm in a public place) ... I would further argue that responsible owners take the necessary steps to insure this does not happen and would not object to the idiot facing consequences.
I did not argue for ridiculous consequences (such as jail or prison) ... I may be anti-gun, but I am not anti-human (calling for overly harsh or cruel punishment ... especially when no one else was injured).
If we are to believe carrying guns is not a danger , then this idiot is an irresponsible abberation that endangered himself and others through his irresponsibility. If "guns" are a right (to me) it would follow that there are responsibilities associated with that right. To argue otherwise undermines the entire gun argument.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)This is more akin to reckless driving. (reckless driving does not require injury to others and it doesn't require the intention of driving recklessly) ... There are consequences for this (there is even the possibility for jail time) ... in all likelihood one is going to be fined and face the loss of their driving privilege (for a time).
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)"Reckless driving is often defined as a mental state in which the driver displays a wanton disregard for the rules of the road". I don't see a wanton disregard for safety from the man. It was an accident.
loudsue
(14,087 posts)Actually, I agree with you about accidents such as this and the long arm of the law.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)I expect the guy will lose his conceal carry permit, and suffer from pain for a while. But I absolutely will never agree to throw people in jail for non-intentional mistakes.
niyad
(113,348 posts)just wondering how careless one has to be to keep the wallet and the gun right next to each other, with, apparently, the trigger so available. but, what the heck, it was an "accident".
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)There are often tort liability in such cases, but criminal liability is very specific. Let's say you are looking one way (not forward) and walk briskly into an elderly woman, knocking her down and breaking her hip. I wouldn't support having the man charged with battery on the woman as it wasn't intentional. That said, the man is obviously liable for civil damages for medical care for the woman.
The problem with guns is that it's practically impossible to have a discussion without extreme emotion clouding the issue. I understand that people strongly oppose concealed carry. But that isn't a justification to stop a liberal approach to criminal punishment.
George II
(67,782 posts)alfredo
(60,074 posts)NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Sometime it's built into the trigger as a longer pull with more force required. I personally hate that design because it's too easy to snag the trigger with an object and not realize it till it's too late. In this instance, the wallet corner likely did so and as it was pulled upward to exit the pocket, it pulled the trigger back.
Demeter
(85,373 posts)but if you mean public opprobrium, in Aryan Michigan, I wouldn't hold my breath.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)This also occurred in Livingston County ... historical home to Michigan's KKK
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)I generally applaud smart decisions of police/prosecutors to not clog the legal system with non-criminal cases. This was an obvious accident. Charging and jailing the man serves no purpose for society.
groundloop
(11,519 posts)People this irresponsible scare the shit out of me. He doesn't need to be carrying a loaded weapon in public.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Or was it just an accident? One major reason this often isn't pursued by police officers is that they themselves sometimes make these types of mistakes.
MH1
(17,600 posts)I'd say at the very least his right to publicly carry should be suspended for a year or so and he should be fined. It should go on his record so that after a certain number of instances he should completely lose his right to carry. Do not say that such an action would have no effect. People who accumulate points against their driver's license incur higher insurance costs and at some point could even have their license suspended - when that risk gets close enough, most people with 2 brain cells to rub together modify their behavior to avoid losing their license at least. So if a similar model were used in cases like this, incidents could be reduced, and public safety would be improved. To me that is a valid use of the justice system.
It sounds like you think there should be NO consequences to this man for endangering the public. Obviously his butt wound is a consequence for endangering himself. That would be sufficient if he'd shot his own ass at home with no one else around. But in this case, he endangered others, and there should be some additional price to him for that.
I'm guessing we're both stuck in our positions so I'll just leave it here.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)I fully believe the man can lose the right to conceal carry in public. But that is a civil matter and not a criminal matter. I don't believe in charging the man with a misdemeanor or felony over an accident. It is a horrible use of the justice system.
Logical
(22,457 posts)NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Sorry, but I do not. I do not believe in charging people with a crime for accidents. And I'm not a fan of heavy punishments for simple mistakes either.
The concealed carry permit is a civil matter, and he will probably lose it. That's fine.
Logical
(22,457 posts)NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)I don't subscribe to the Republican view on responsibility. I don't believe in harsh punishments for accidents simply because someone was doing something legal that I dislike.
Logical
(22,457 posts)of carrying a gun in public is much higher than driving a car, etc.
Allow mistakes to happen with no punishment does not set the standard higher. Other idiot gun owners will see this idiot get a weekend in jail and take note.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Sometimes shit happens. If you don't want CCW (it is stupid) then work to repeal the law. Don't smash down on a guy because of a simple mistake like getting his wallet caught on the trigger of some shitty designed glock or such. This belief that we need to severely punish people for simple mistakes is fucking our society up.
Logical
(22,457 posts)NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)I'm not a fan of concealed carry. I only believe a gun should be carried in public if unloaded, and then only for a purpose such as going to a range or hunting. But I separate that view from my feelings about use of courts and accidents.
An accidental discharge may injure one or two people at most before the bullet loses energy. But a lose of control in a car can kill/injure many more. A single car losing control can cause this:
Logical
(22,457 posts)etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)I don't mean this as snark, my intention is to point out that this is a good and consistent argument (and I hate guns). To defend the irresponsibility of this idiot undermines the "pro-gun" argument.
I had posted this above:
"I am surprised gun advocates would defend this. (acknowledging that I am as anti-gun as anyone) If I were advocating for guns i would state that this was not a responsible gun owner (as evidenced by his discharge of a firearm in a public place) ... I would further argue that responsible owners take the necessary steps to insure this does not happen and would not object to the idiot facing consequences.
If we are to believe carrying guns is not a danger, then this idiot is an irresponsible aberration that endangered himself and others through his irresponsibility. If "guns" are a right (to me) it would follow that there are responsibilities associated with that right. To argue otherwise undermines the entire gun argument. "
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)discharging a firearm from a vehicle is prohibited;
discharging a firearm within a public right-of-way, in cemeteries,
or on farm property without the consent of the farm's owner is prohibited;
and
carrying a firearm while under the influence of a controlled substance or alcohol is prohibited.
http://www.michiganinbrief.org/edition07/Chapter5/FirearmReg.htm
BlueMTexpat
(15,369 posts)Intent is not required.
http://definitions.uslegal.com/r/reckless-endangerment/
Carrying a loaded gun into a store, especially during a period when the store is likely to be crowded (post-Xmas sales, etc.) where it was ultimately discharged is clearly showing a disregard for the foreseeable consequences of that action. The interpretation of this as a felony depends on state law. He is extremely lucky that the only person he harmed was himself.
I hope that he seriously rethinks such actions in future. And yes, I hope that he can be - and is - charged with a felony.
iamthebandfanman
(8,127 posts)ricocheted and injured someone else?
still no punishment ?
I can understand not getting in trouble for accidently shooting yourself.. but youd think given his location, hed be expected to have more control over his firearm .. and be held responsible for the safety of carrying it.
smokey nj
(43,853 posts)wilt the stilt
(4,528 posts)is he will be reminded of this idiocy for at least 6 weeks as he can't sit down.
liberal N proud
(60,336 posts)New tools $200
Shooting self in the ass while shopping -PRICELESS!
KansDem
(28,498 posts)hobbit709
(41,694 posts)And then there are those that can't tell the difference between a wallet and a gun on their ass.
George II
(67,782 posts)malaise
(269,054 posts)pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)valerief
(53,235 posts)Only concerned about themselves and their 1% masters.
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)bucolic_frolic
(43,186 posts)the right to bare will not be infringed
maybe he should put the safety in the "on" position
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)malaise
(269,054 posts)valerief
(53,235 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(49,008 posts)Crunchy Frog
(26,587 posts)He could have eliminated himself from the gene pool and won himself a Darwin prize.
Blue Owl
(50,427 posts)n/t
Turbineguy
(37,343 posts)buy another gun for his ass to protect itself from his brain.
MindPilot
(12,693 posts)after a few rounds of "place item in bagging area...remove item from bagging area" I'm ready for some sledgehammer diplomacy.
marmar
(77,081 posts)BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)egold2604
(369 posts)3catwoman3
(24,007 posts)poetic justice or karma - an @$$h0le now has another hole in his @$$.
(love the assorted brilliant word play up thread, BTW)
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)How fitting.
NBachers
(17,122 posts)Iggo
(47,558 posts)I sense a trend.
Sophiegirl
(2,338 posts)davidthegnome
(2,983 posts)Really bizarre accident.
I think people asking whether he should lose his weapon and permit to carry are asking a good question. If a man is so irresponsible or ignorant as to put a loaded weapon, with the safety OFF, so close to his wallet, and uhm, other important things, then is this someone we want carrying a gun around in public? I mean, there are simple ways he could have avoided making an ass of himself.
Maybe I assume too much though, perhaps his gun didn't have safety. Maybe he accidentally flicked it off while searching for his wallet. We all know that when you assume, you make an ass out of u and me.
Gothmog
(145,321 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Hilarity because the dumb-butt shot himself in the ass, and gratitude that it wasn't Brighton, MA...! I didn't think there was a HOME DEPOT there, any-hoo!
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)davidthegnome
(2,983 posts)I think it may be assumed that his ass is now wholly holey.
MurrayDelph
(5,299 posts)to blowing his brains out.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)We still aren't seeing stores banning guns inside. Your rights don't supersede what the stores rules are, and if Home Depot allows shit like this to happen in their stores, it's time to boycott stores that allow peoples lives to be threatened by some gun nut who needs to bring his gun with him EVERYWHERE he goes. Fuck him.
City Lights
(25,171 posts)Thank goodness no one else was injured by this douchesac's idiocy.
gulliver
(13,186 posts)That way his relatives, friends, neighbors, boss, etc., can decide what they think about the whole thing. I assume he was white or the story would probably be very different.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)DU laughs its collective ass off.
valerief
(53,235 posts)It's in the first and second amendments of the Constitution and pro'ly more, too. It's in the Bible, too. He has a gawd-given right to protect hisself with guns and rifles and semi-automatics and pro'ly even grenades in public places like kindergartens and churches and Home Depots. Anything else would be Commie, Socialist, Nazi, and unAmerican!
samsingh
(17,599 posts)valerief
(53,235 posts)rdharma
(6,057 posts)Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)For violating SOP. They are not consistent, it seems.
Anyways, I have no sympathy for this dumbass. He deserves his injury. I'm glad no innocent bystanders were injured.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)Last edited Sun Dec 29, 2013, 03:20 PM - Edit history (1)
Thanks to all of the Host for discussing this thread.
[img][/img]
ITW
[img][/img]
the bullet from the gun would have ricocheted off of the floor or another thing in the store, and have killed another person or sent another person to the hospital, what would the police have charged to gun holder with? Accidental shooting, involuntary manslaughter, or other?
This is an example why people shouldn't carry firearms into places of business.
My wife and I stopped going to the local coin operated laundry because another patron carries his pistol on his hip. We don't want to be around people who carry loaded weapons into businesses. Idiots also carry guns in our local Walmart too, fortunately, we only visit Walmart once every three months to pick up prescriptions. People who carry guns into businesses must feel really insecure or afraid of other people, just my opinion.
ileus
(15,396 posts)ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)A good IWB holster would have prevented this.
ileus
(15,396 posts)they pick up a crappy uncle mikes instead.
I refuse to carry inside the waist band...OWB for life here.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)...deserves a self imposed bullet in the butt.
I hope this suburban Rambo wannabe was carrying a MAGNUM.