Rape Culture 101

[boston bean]

Rape culture is encouraging male sexual aggression. Rape culture is regarding violence as sexy and sexuality as violent. Rape culture is treating rape as a compliment, as the unbridled passion stirred in a healthy man by a beautiful woman, making irresistible the urge to rip open her bodice or slam her against a wall, or a wrought-iron fence, or a car hood, or pull her by her hair, or shove her onto a bed, or any one of a million other images of fight-fucking in movies and television shows and on the covers of romance novels that convey violent urges are inextricably linked with (straight) sexuality.

Rape culture is treating straight sexuality as the norm. Rape culture is lumping queer sexuality into nonconsensual sexual practices like pedophilia and bestiality. Rape culture is privileging heterosexuality because ubiquitous imagery of two adults of the same-sex engaging in egalitarian partnerships without gender-based dominance and submission undermines (erroneous) biological rationales for the rape culture's existence.

Rape culture is rape being used as a weapon, a tool of war and genocide and oppression. Rape culture is rape being used as a corrective to "cure" queer women. Rape culture is a militarized culture and "the natural product of all wars, everywhere, at all times, in all forms."

Rape culture is 1 in 33 men being sexually assaulted in their lifetimes. Rape culture is encouraging men to use the language of rape to establish dominance over one another ("I'll make you my bitch&quot . Rape culture is making rape a ubiquitous part of male-exclusive bonding. Rape culture is ignoring the cavernous need for men's prison reform in part because the threat of being raped in prison is considered an acceptable deterrent to committing crime, and the threat only works if actual men are actually being raped.

39 other examples at the link if you so desire to learn more about it:

http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html

[Blanket Statements]

1. Ugh

[BainsBane]

2. Rape culture normalizes and trivializes sexual assault

Rape culture is a concept that links rape and sexual violence to the culture of a society,[1] and in which prevalent attitudes and practices normalize, excuse, tolerate, and even condone rape.[2]
Examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, and trivializing rape. Rape culture has been used to model behavior within social groups, including prison rape and conflict areas where war rape is used as psychological warfare. Entire countries have also been alleged to be rape cultures.[3][4][5][6][7]
Although the concept of rape culture is used in feminist academia,[8] there is disagreement over what defines a rape culture and to what degree a given society meets the criteria to be considered a rape culture.[3]
Rape culture has been observed to correlate with other social factors and behaviors. Research identifies correlation between rape myths, victim blaming and trivialization of rape with increased incidence of racism, homophobia, ageism, classism, religious intolerance and other forms of discrimination.[9][10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

[Solly Mack]

3. K&R

[BainsBane]

4. Rape culture means 3-5% of sexual assaults result in conviction

http://theenlivenproject.com/the-truth-about-false-accusation/

[redqueen]

5. key words: "if you so desire to learn more about it" nt

[pintobean]

6. Does DU have a rape culture problem?

[Rex]

11. America does.

[Lunacee_2013]

86. Sometimes it seems like the whole world does...

Jailing rape victims, forcing them to marry their attackers, stoning them to death, WTF?

[niyad]

120. only sometimes??

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024240923

[sir pball]

150. I agree and accept rape is a major problem in America..

..and also heretically think that we're one of the better countries when it comes to sexual violence. Which speaks more to the miserable state of women globally than to anything like us being a safe haven. "Safer", perhaps..

[pacalo]

65. +1.

[Sheldon Cooper]

93. Matter of fact, it does.

[pintobean]

100. That's it?

No explanation or examples?
You saying it's so doesn't make it so.

[Sheldon Cooper]

102. Frankly, yes.

At least that's all you're going to get. You have no desire to actually learn, but instead to stir up shit. So, consider it stirred.

[pintobean]

111. Your answer

looks like what you are accusing me of. I simply asked a question. If this information you possess about a serious problem at DU is only for an approved audience, maybe you shouldn't have even replied to me.
I would suggest that you inform admin asap.

[NoOneMan]

104. Got a link to the pro-"rape culture" threads on DU?

I'm not sure I want to go unicorn hunting

[nomorenomore08]

113. Maybe not pro-rape-culture per se. But there's a lot of MRA-ish "poor men" whining

RE: domestic violence, false rape accusations, etc. When women are far more likely than men to be seriously injured or killed in domestic incidents, and the average man is far less likely to be falsely accused of rape, than the average woman is to be raped.

[NoOneMan]

116. And there is a lot more people murdered than there are innocents on death row

We are intelligent and complex enough to be concerned with both groups of victims, without having any of our concerns characterized or dismissed as "whining". The Innocence Project is not a pro-murder group; they are a pro-justice group.

Maybe its a hasty analogy. Maybe that makes sense.

[nomorenomore08]

124. But has the Innocence Project ever implied that the majority of murder accusations are false?

Do murder victims (Trayvon Martin excepted) routinely have their character impugned, and activities questioned, by defense lawyers?

Falsely accusing someone of rape is a terrible, despicable thing to do, and undermines genuine victims' quest for justice. People who do so should be severely punished. But when less than 5% of rape accusations - a rate comparable to other crimes - are false, while somewhere between 1 in 6 and 1 in 3 women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime, pretending that false accusations are as big a problem as rape itself, is disingenuous to say the least.

P.S. The number of innocent people on death row is an excellent argument for abolishing the death penalty. I hope you'll agree with me there, at least.

[NoOneMan]

126. No. Has anyone on DU suggested that more than 1 in 2 rape accusations are false?

Link please.

P.S. The number of innocent people on death row is an excellent argument for abolishing the death penalty. I hope you'll agree with me there, at least.

That among many arguments, yes. I am 100% against the death penalty with no special exceptions

[nomorenomore08]

131. They don't have to say so outright. But when they bring up the supposed problem of false accusations

- as if it were an epidemic or something - in nearly every single thread about rape, it's pretty clear where their sympathies lie, i.e. certainly not with rape victims.

Look, I'm a guy, so on some level I can understand the fear of false accusations. But I also realize that the fear, and the actual risk, are trivial in comparison to the threat of rape that women live with.

[lumberjack_jeff]

140. It sure does! You should see my list of trashed threads! n/t

[pintobean]

141. bingo.

[BainsBane]

8. Is the difference between rape and consensual sex really so confusing for you?

If so, you really need to do something about that.

[Sheldon Cooper]

9. Seriously.

People who genuinely cannot tell the difference should seek professional help.

[Matariki]

15. I thought some the language in the OP could be construed that way too.

"making irresistible the urge to rip open her bodice or slam her against a wall, or a wrought-iron fence, or a car hood, or pull her by her hair, or shove her onto a bed"

Could have left that out and made a better point.

I was very active for a time in my local BDSM community, and truthfully for the most part they were some of the most conscious and aware folks I've ever met regarding gender issues. What I noticed is that people engaged in consensual bdsm become EXTREMELY aware of when it's NOT consensual, or when something has an unconscious undercurrent of dominance and submission.

[BainsBane]

18. I myself prefer the Wikipedia definition of rape culture

As I think it gets more directly to the heart of the problem.

I see no correlation between BDSM and rape, except that it really pisses me off when men use the word rape to refer to consensual activity. If it's consensual, it's not rape: period. Rape isn't determined by how rough or tender the sex is but by the absence of consent, period.

[Matariki]

23. Exactly. Which is why I think the write up in the OP isn't very good.

It contains too much ambivalence that is going to be misinterpreted and bound to turn this tread into a flame fest.

I'm pretty sensitive to this stuff and I had the same reaction as Mr. Scorpio and Pintobean when I read it. Truthfully I found that sentence I quoted a little too hot for a serious discussion of the very real issue of rape culture.

[opiate69]

33. "Which is why I think the write up in the OP isn't very good."

Well, that's to be expected when the "source" being cited is merely some random blogger of unknown credentials and an obvious agenda.

[xulamaude]

42. Shakesville is "a random blogger"?

That made me laugh.

[boston bean]

43. Yeah that gave me a chuckle too.

[opiate69]

59. of course it did...

[xulamaude]

57. What? I'm guessing you're saying

that because it's not a university study (or something) it has no merit?

Off topic, but what's that image have to do with the OP?

[xulamaude]

69. You're a real piece of work 69. nt

[seabeyond]

146. i would say the silly male giggles at being offensive. wow. nt

[KitSileya]

165. That was an ugly, ugly image, I'm glad it got hidden.

On DU, I've seen juries let stand posts that say that drunk women cannot be raped if they know that alcohol impairs judgement, and that pressuring or guilting someone into sex isn't rape either. I have seen tons of posts claiming that a 6-year old boy should not face consequences for violating a classmate's bodily integrity, and that we were shaming him for wanting the school to teach him that it is wrong to kiss someone who doesn't want it. I have seen posts questioning a man who posted about being raped, saying he would be responsible for the rapes committed by his rapist in the future if he didn't report it, and using his post to score cheap points against feminists. I have seen posts going yuck yuck, I wish that had happened to me at 11 - when an 11-year old boy is brave enough to report being raped by his friend's mom.

Do I see evidence of our society's rape culture here on DU. Ya sure ya betcha!

[1awake]

172. I have never heard of a Shakesville

so to me... yes. (That has nothing to do though whether I disagree or agree with the sentiment)

[BainsBane]

41. I see your point. nt

[redqueen]

49. The specific mention of "movies and television shows" limits the meaning.

In a consensual situation, the parties involved are (hopefully) communicating very clearly what they are into and what they enjoy.

In the media, however, the line isn't clear at all. And often it is very clear, in a very harmful way.

When media depicts men as forcing women to interact with them, when those women clearly are not interested, and then shows the woman "giving in" and returning the man's affections, that sends an extremely harmful message, to both men and women.

That is the focus of that paragraph - these depictions in media. Not in private, consensual relationships.

[MrScorpio]

88. What would helpful then is a disclaimer for media indicating explicit consent

Even with before and after interviews of all the participants, where they first discuss and agree to set limits and the use of safe words. Afterwards, they can discuss what happened in the scene, what was enjoyable about it and what was problematic and whether or not they would be willing to repeat the experience.

Something like that would clarify that the scene happened with willing participants, who had control over their environments and whatever, if anything it looked like, wasn't really coercion, it was just all make believe.

Perhaps people should understand right off what acting is and what reality is.

[redqueen]

90. Media affects us.

In movies like Bladerunner and Gone With The Wind, the women are shown as enjoying being forced.

I don't think having extra footage, which very few will even watch, stating that it's acting and that the actors were ok, will change anything at all.

There's also the fact that Sean Young had to take a few weeks off after this scene. Harrison Ford really disliked her.

[Kurska]

164. Do you think depictions of such interactions should be illegal or just frowned upon? n/t

[hughee99]

19. If that were true, you'd expect virtually no argument on the pornography related threads

and yet there seems to be a great deal of disagreement among DUers. It seems to me that either there is no concrete definition and it is left to the judgment of each individual OR there is some specific definition and many, many people don't understand what it is.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024073698

[seabeyond]

28. then yo have not actually heard the arguments about this but have your preconceived ideas.

just sayin

[hughee99]

35. Read the thread. Heard a LOT of arguments. Some good, some not so good.

The fact that there were SO MANY arguments leads me to believe that the line is not as clear as the poster I was responding to would make it seem. What may be considered consensual by the participants COULD be viewed as rape by a viewer in some cases, and vice versa.

[seabeyond]

39. you are right. it is not an easy conversation. there is so much to all of this. wrapping it up in

a pretty bow of consent isnt the reality any more than saying all rape porn is rape. though i think then a discussion of rape porn in and of itself has a valid place in discussion. though separate from this maybe.

[hughee99]

55. Fair enough.

It is not my intention to hijack this thread, so I'll try to not push this sub-thread here any further. Thank you.

[opiate69]

40. In fact, people in my local BDSM community have had run-ins with the law...

Over some very elaborately planned and exceptionally realistic "scenes" they were involved in.

[BainsBane]

38. Rape is not bdsm

rape is defined by the absence of consent. There isn't agreement on this site that rape is even a problem. Why would you think there would be agreement on rape porn? How on earth would you expect people who think rape is unimportant to care if a crime is documented on camera or depicted?

Have you actually read any of the threads about rape on this site?

I have noticed the ones who have the biggest problems conflating BDSM with rape are those who often feel compelled to defend accused rapists and call their victims liars. Some clearly have trouble distinguishing their own sexual desires from non-consensual violence. I suggest you take the issue up with them.

[hughee99]

52. Based on the thread I linked to, it seems no one was suggesting that a film of an actual rape

was in any way okay to view, distribute or to use as anything other than evidence in a trial. There was SOME discussion over consent, though. While no one (that I noticed anyway) seemed to be arguing that non-consensual sex was acceptable, there were several arguing that even consensual sex may still be rape because some of the participants may not be in a condition to make an informed decision and because in their opinion, no person would willingly do certain acts. And while this is certainly possible and I'm sure does happen, it's tough to broad brush everything with the template of a worst case scenario without further evidence.

I think the reason you have BDSM and rape so often conflated is because some look at it and think to themselves that no person would willingly consent to that.

[BainsBane]

64. There is the theoretical insistence

Last edited Sat Dec 28, 2013, 09:22 PM - Edit history (1)

that rape pron is not actual rape, despite evidence that it sometimes is. Among those who do porn are enslaved women, human trafficked and forced to perform. Linda Lovelace was herself forced to perform at gun point. When watching such depictions, one is watching and subsidizing actual rape. Now I understand some assiduously refuse to accept that fact, but that only shows their indifference to the rape of porn workers.

So I do not accept the framing of the argument in ways that ignore the actual circumstances under which some porn is made. I have repeatedly urged responsible consumption of porn through licensed and regulated companies to minimize the subsidization of human trafficking, but many simply refuse to do that. Even regulations compelling porn producers to maintain safe sex workplaces is an outrage to some around here. Clearly they see the lives and basic rights of those who make porn as insignificant in comparison to their own desires to watch what they want, when they want. Most strangely, they bizarrely conflate porn--which is capitalist commerce--with their own sexuality. I cannot begin to understand that kind of confusion. They are not the ones appearing on screen. Porn workers, some free and some enslaved, are. Regulations are meant to preserve their lives, not interfere with the viewers sexuality. Enslavement of porn workers and death due to STDs is not central to the viewers' sexuality, but it does create profit. My position on privileging profit over human life is consistent. I do not make exceptions for women or any porn worker, as though their lives are somehow less important than those who work in other areas of the economy, and I have no respect for those who do.

This diversion into porn goes back to the familiar territory of what men want because ultimately nothing else matters for too many around here. It is as predicted. The last thing to do is actually think about the lives of rape victims as human beings who matter at all.

[nomorenomore08]

127. "My position on privileging profit over human life is consistent." Well said.

And trivializing the lives and experiences of any workers, sex workers included, is dangerous for us all. Because it feeds into the hyper-capitalist mentality that we're all (or should be) mere drones whose health, happiness, and comfort are irrelevant.

[cinnabonbon]

70. the discussion I saw was about how vids were labeled "real rape" as a selling point

and were arguably created to look as much as a real rape as possible. That can be dangerous, because there's no way to tell if the people in the video consented or not. And while I'm glad you didn't see anyone think non-consensual sex as acceptable, there were people who stated they viewed rape as erotic, not an act of violence. That can be hard to stomach for rape victims on this site.

BDSM and rape are very different. BDSM relies on respect for your partner, and establishing boundaries and safe words before engaging. Rape is about taking someone's bodily autonomy away, BDSM is about celebrating it. I haven't seen a lot of people mistake those two at all.

[hughee99]

75. The discussion I linked to was about Brits banning "violent porn" whether real or simulated.

I'm not arguing against your point, but that wasn't the discussion I was referring to. In any case, it's been pointed out (accurately) that the discussion of pornography is a diversion from the point of this thread, and it is not my intention to thread-jack with an off topic diversion. My attempt was to show how the line is not as clear as some might be portraying it, but making my case on this issue will take this clearly off-topic.

[cinnabonbon]

79. Oh, I see. I didn't see the thread you're referring. Would you happen to have a link?

I wouldn't mind having a good discussion with you about the blurriness of the line between the two, but if it's off topic I won't take it further.

Hope that we'll get the chance in another thread.

[hughee99]

83. I think this will get you there.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024073698#post1

The thread is a few weeks old, though.

[cinnabonbon]

87. Thank you very much. nt

[raccoon]

44. Thank you! nt

[etherealtruth]

12. Are you seriously unable to determine the difference?

[seabeyond]

13. the word consensual about tells you all. nt

[MrScorpio]

10. Question:

Is rape culture any two freely consenting adults who practice BDSM and Power Exchange play in private, who never exceed pre-arranged hard limits and always honor safe words?

[BainsBane]

14. I'm surprised at you

I might expect this from someone else, but not you.

Answer: NO

[Matariki]

16. Yeah but the description in the OP mentions movies and romance book covers

so maybe you could see why some folks are asking that question.

[boston bean]

21. I think the issue is the imagery of that is what women want and it perpetuates a culture.

Not people who consent.

Ie, women like being manhandled and controlled. Well, some may, but we aren't watching a BDSM film, we are watching mainstream tv, where it appears this is how a man is to act and that women like it.

[Matariki]

27. Well some women do, which is why those covers sell books

Conversely plenty of men like being dominated by women too - which I've seen up close and personal.

My point being, the choice of words in the OP could have been much much better. I'm certainly not arguing with your central point.

[boston bean]

34. I didn't think you were arguing and neither am I.

Maybe the wording could have been better, but I don't think she mentioned BDSM flicks.

[Matariki]

45. I think it's an important topic

I get what you are saying about those images presenting and creating cultural norms. I don't think the author expressed it in a way that won't get misconstrued. Which is unfortunate because it shuts down the discussion in any real way.

I remember watching movies from the 70s and earlier and how infuriated I would get when a woman gets attacked in one of them sheNEVER fights back, just screams. I always felt that that kind of imagery was very harmful. It didn't have to be overtly sexual - just perpetuating the idea (in both men AND women) that women are victims, are weak, are incapable of defending themselves. Have you ever seen Frenzy by Alfred Hitchcock? Damn that movie irked the hell out of me when the woman just screams as she's strangled with a tie. I actually screamed at the tv - "for god's sake woman! poke his goddamn eyes out! don't just scream til you're dead". That really ruined that movie for me. Not realistic at all.

Anyway.

[boston bean]

47. I guess no feminist is perfect, she could have written it better, but she didn't.

overall, I think it's still a good piece.

[davidn3600]

24. Yeah, but do you want porn depicting such to be banned?

I dont remember if it was you or someone else, but I remember during the rape porn debate in the past on here that someone saying anyone that engages in that kind of activity is a potential rapist exercising their fantasies of sexual violence. And the only people that would want to watch it are rapists in order to get their rocks off.

[boston bean]

29. The point being made was that a lot of porn was not consentual.

Secondly, graphic images and film of what looks to be real rape, with real blood, real bruising, real hitting, real beating, real choking, I would tend to agree does play into rape culture.

[seabeyond]

31. rape porn, regardless how many times you are told, is not the same as bsdm. it was explained

continuously the difference. and yet, here were are back to that argument.

when men only see the rape porn as an issue all tied up pretty as a bow to allow it to be digestible, then they are being less than honest in conversation. that would be the fail.

[pintobean]

36. And that anyone who didn't

condemn it was a rape apologist.

[nomorenomore08]

133. If you can't tell a simulation from the real thing, then what the hell are we supposed to do?

I agree that only actual depictions of rape (i.e. "the real thing&quot should be banned, generally speaking. But what about simulated rape scenarios that are meant to be indistinguishable from real rapes? How do we deal with those?

[davidn3600]

137. You mean like the ones in movies?

Are they not made to look real?

Should "A Clockwork Orange" be banned?

But movies are OK because it's a form of artistic expression. Right? Well, many people view porn as expression too.

[nomorenomore08]

139. I'm not talking about a feature film that is clearly fictional. That's not the same thing at all.

It's not something that "looks" real but is presented as fictional. It's something that's presented as an actual video of someone being raped, whether the person is being raped in reality or not. And presumably, the viewer is "getting off" on the illusion that they're watching a real rape - assuming it's not actual rape footage, which sadly does exist.

How do you conflate that with "A Clockwork Orange"?

[davidn3600]

152. So in other words...we're going back to talking about BDSM porn

That is porn where the parties involved have given consent. Although it can present the illusion that it's not because the boundaries and "safe-words" are usually never presented to the person watching it.

[nomorenomore08]

154. I'm not calling for banning *anything* - other than real footage of real criminal acts -

but it does concern me that so many people (mostly men) seem to get off to such overtly violent imagery. Not so much BDSM - that's its own niche - but more the amount of abusive, violent behavior seen nowadays in "mainstream" porn. Forgive me if I'm not enthusiastic about the proliferation of this stuff.

And before you jump on me, I have no problem at all with sexually explicit material in itself. But the material I'm talking about seems to have less to do with sex per se, than with pure degradation.

[MrScorpio]

26. I just want to have that clarified

Because on reading the original piece, it seems to imply that a male dominant and female submissive BDSM relationship is, itself, intrinsically linked to rape culture. Am I reading this right?

[boston bean]

32. I do not believe that is the case.

What she described are what we see in mainstream media. Ie, the manhandling, controlling a woman physically as if that is how a man is to act and what a woman likes.

The last part of her sentence is clear..

that convey violent urges are inextricably linked with (straight) sexuality.

[MrScorpio]

46. Do me a favor, I'm on my iPod now

There's a vid on YouTube by a female artist named FKA Twigs and she did a song called "Papi Pacify". If you can take a moment to check out the vid she did for the song, can you tell me what you think of it?

[boston bean]

63. I went and watched the entire video.

Really not my thing, and I assume you are asking if it plays into rape culture... I think I would have to say yes.

Even though she is willing, the male is the one in control physically, and for some men they may feel that is what all women want and how they should treat them.

[MrScorpio]

74. Even if she specifically wants him to dominate her?

You saw that she wanted to be dominated, as did I. We both recognized that right away. But I'm having problems classifying it as rape culture because it clearly implies consent.

Sure, there are men walking around who have no regard to consent, implied or explicit, and those men would rightly be called rapists or rape apologists. No question about the fact that THEY would view the vid as a blueprint, because they clearly lack the ability or will to apply proper context.

But is that the same for people who know better? Are you willing to tell that woman that she wrote that song and made that vid that it implies to everyone that she wants to be raped? Because I don't think that I can do that.

I understand the difference.

[boston bean]

76. No, that is not what I am saying.

I am saying that in mainstream media when these things are portrayed it normalizes male dominance over females.

[nomorenomore08]

134. An individual woman "wanting to be dominated" is not problematic. But when it's implied that this is

what all or most women "want," that's where the problem arises. Because sexual violence, or sexual dominance, is then normalized and even expected.

[MrScorpio]

143. I totally agree with that.

The desires of each partner must be clarified ahead of time.

[BainsBane]

48. I see no such link

Rape is not defined by how rough, kinky or tender the sex is but by the absence of consent.

[MrScorpio]

62. And that's what I think as well

Yes, the piece went into detail to specify that consensual rough play is acceptable only if it's not hetero-normative, Which could conversely read, that if the male's the dom and the female's the sub, that kind of relationship bolsters rape culture because indicates male dominince over women.

[BainsBane]

67. Perhaps it does

but I consider that far less important that the issues around the crime of rape: allegations of false reporting, defending rapists, shaming victims, that sort of thing.

Ultimately what consenting adults do in their private sex lives is their business entirely. I don't put my sex life under the microscope, and I don't think anyone else should have to be subject to that either.

[cinnabonbon]

71. I suppose the thread

about BDSM can be seen as derailing from the real issue. Sorry about being a part of that.

Let's get back to talking about rape culture. Like for example, what happened in Steubenville is a perfect example of what rape culture is all about.

[Matariki]

68. +1

well said.

[pintobean]

20. Excellent question.

I see that some here want to pretend that the recent rape porn shit storm didn't happen, or that the positions taken during it have shifted due to the different topic. It's too confusing to keep this straight.

[Spider Jerusalem]

25. Question in response to question:

Is BDSM and power exchange play in part a result of acculturation to socially-normative gender and sex roles and would it exist to the degree it does now if our society were significantly different as regards such things?

[Matariki]

30. If that were the case then wouldn't you find dom/sub roles falling mostly along gender lines?

Because I assure you that's not the case.

[Spider Jerusalem]

37. Not necessarily, no

because sexual submission and the reasons for it are different for different genders; for men who submit in the context of a D/s relationship? it's partly about being freed of the social pressures and expectations of performative masculinity; for women it can be about a contractual transference of agency that removes the stigma of "nice girls don't..."

[Matariki]

50. Those thing can be true sometimes, sure.

But you can't give a one size fits all along gender lines. People are complex, people's sexuality is complex. There are all sorts of reasons BDSM can appeal to individuals. I know lots of folks who like to switch roles. People who like the endorphins, people who like the depth of trust it requires from a relationship. Just for instance.

[Spider Jerusalem]

60. Yes, but...

it's still worth asking if BDSM would be as much of a thing as it is if our social attitudes and socialisation to performative sex and gender roles and such were different. My point is that this aspect of sexuality (which, so far as I know, exists as a thing principally in cultures with strong traditions of male dominance and female submission; cf Japan and shibari etc) may be a cultural artifact.

[Matariki]

66. It's worth asking

I don't know the answer. I'm sure there is some truth to what you're saying, I'm just not certain that it's the only thing going on. Also, I don't know how it plays out in other cultures where there is a lot of shame attached to those desires. I'd expect it would be much more hidden and consequently harder to theorize about.

[cinnabonbon]

56. I think you're really onto something

when you say they are freed from social pressure when they enter into the BDSM scene. They can finally let themselves go a little.

That is partly what makes rape culture different from BDSM, too, I think. Because RC pushes ideas and expectations on both genders that are clearly not to everyone's tastes, and the pressure can shape them in ways they feel are stifling and wrong.

[redqueen]

53. That isn't the case? Are you sure?

Because I've been involved with that scene, and it very much appeared to be the case from my perspective.

[Matariki]

58. Not in the community I was involved in

Here it seemed fairly equal along gender lines and the community was pretty pan-sexual. Might be different in other places.

[Kurska]

153. It has nothing to do with gender or sex roles, it has everything to do with power and trust.

Some people find it sexy to cede power to another individual, there is nothing wrong with being sexually submissive. Some people like to take sexual submissiveness to extremes (people take everything to extremes).

[Spider Jerusalem]

155. But the intersection of power and trust with sexuality...

has quite a lot, really, to do with socialisation, acculturation, and gender and sex norms. (Note that I haven't said there's anything *wrong* with being sexually submissive, per se. Just that the contextual ideas of "submission" and "dominance" in that particular context seem to arise from certain sorts of social and cultural settings.)

[Kurska]

156. Baking/cooking is also heavily associated with gender and sex norms

That doesn't mean the reason that people cook is because of gender or sex norms, a lot of people just like cooking. You're talking about a correlation and association, when you appear to be looking for causation.

A lot of people just like being the submissive partner and they take that too any extreme. I've known a lot of gay guys who aren't "feminine" in the slightest who take a submissive role.

If you removed gender and sex roles from the equation, you'd still have BDSM.

[Spider Jerusalem]

157. I never said "feminine" = "submissive" (note other response in this thread)

and we're not talking about cooking, we're talking about ritualised dominance in the context of a sexual relationship (which is pretty much a thing in Western societies and to some extent Japan but not elsewhere). And I think you'd have to be pretty wilfully blind to try to deny the role of socialisation and acculturation in shaping sexuality. Please note that I am not explicitly condemning D/s relationships, or saying they are a bad thing. I am only questioning the extent to which it's a response to other things that are so pervasive in our culture that anyone living in it can't help but be affected by them.

[Matariki]

160. This I seriously doubt:

"which is pretty much a thing in Western societies and to some extent Japan but not elsewhere".

I think people can be open about it in the places you mention is all.

[Kurska]

163. I think it has more to do with duality and something intrinsic to human nature than social roles.

People like balance, something dominant for something submissive. The themes of power, trust and sacrifice are also heaviled involved in BDSM and something I also think strikes to core parts of human nature.

I think if we had a completely gender neutral society we'd still have incredibly kinky and often violent sex between consenting adults with dominant and submissive roles.

[redqueen]

51. See my post 49.

for my answer to your question.

[Shankapotomus]

22. Is this what the kerfuffle at DU is all about?

These types of posts?

See, even as a guy I don't find these notices offensive at all. They are just public service announcements for those who may not have identified all the forms the insidious culture of rape takes. It even acknowledges men can be victims too. Even the most liberal of us can harbor unidentified prejudices and dormant programming that can be externally triggered and expressed as an unconscious reflex. Look at Alec Baldwin. He could have used a reminder not to use inappropriate language toward the gay community. And while I think most DUers won't make the mistake of raping someone, there are subtle behaviors related to rape culture we may not be aware of that reinforce and support it.

Additionally, I applaud the use of "culture" here. Even though statistics may lean heavier toward one gender over another, the use of the word "culture" is sensitive to the fact that a culture can be accepted and promoted by those of any gender and wrong behavior can be reinforced by members of any group.

[NoOneMan]

72. No, its not.

Its implying all males, even you, promote rape culture or should feel immense guilt from it.

[BainsBane]

73. LOL

"Implying"? Is that what the voice in your head told you? Or do you have links to posts where people actually said that?

I recall a posting of an Indian PSA then a handful of men decided to see themselves represented in. No one said, hey that's you. Some themselves decided to declare it normal behavior. They chose to take it as an attack, when it looked to me like they had chosen to put themselves under attack.

[boston bean]

77. creep shaming! LOL

[NoOneMan]

78. That PSA thread initiated a whole lot of meta doing just that

As for concrete examples:
"There is nothing that causes outrage among men like female sexual autonomy."


Now, sure, I guess you could twist yourself into pretzels to claim that thread--which you participated actively in--implied nothing about men--ALL MEN--at all. Sure.

I still haven't had a chance to read the PSA thread so I won't comment on it specifically. A lot of the follow up threads I did read were sexist, predujuice generalization that do not cast DU in the best light.

[BainsBane]

81. You do know Recursion's thread was in response to another that same day, right?

You can't blame feminists because a few men decided they weren't progressive enough to handle a PSA for an Indian audience. That is their own problem and no one else's.

Recursion's thread doesn't even mention rape or rape culture, so your post is a total fail there. Moreover, it doesn't say you, NoOneMan, or even all men. It talks about sexism "among men" and Recursion recounts his own experience. Perhaps you should stop thinking everything that is written is directed at you personally? If I decided every single thread was about me, I'd be pretty miserable too. I however learned at age 8 that I really wasn't the center of the universe and that people had thoughts and lives that had absolutely nothing to do with me.

[NoOneMan]

84. I don't blame feminists. I like feminists. I blame your mean little club

Recursion's thread doesn't say even mention rape or rape culture, so your post is a total fail there

I'm talking about the entire discourse concerning feminist issues on DU in response to the posters question, not just "rape culture" threads

Moreover, it doesn't say you NoOne'sMan or even all men. It talks about sexism "among men" and Recursion recounts his own experience. Perhaps you should stop thinking everything that is written is directed at you personally? If I decided every single thread was about me, I'd be pretty miserable too. I however learned at age 8 that I really wasn't the center of the universe and that people had thoughts and lives that had absolutely nothing to do with me.

Read the title of that thread. Read the first sentence. Read your reply and notice how silly it is.

[BainsBane]

91. Oh, so you don't like "my little club"

because I disagree with you? Recursion isn't in the "little club." He's not even a woman. So what exactly do you think you are proving by linking to his thread?

Then this:

Read the title of that thread. Read the first sentence. Read your reply and notice how silly it is.

I have no idea what's going on in your head and how you think female sexual autonomy and rape are the same thing or even related. Moreover, I don't think I want to know.

Your response is nonsensical. The problem with filtering everything through your own ego is that it is supremely boring for everyone but yourself.

[redqueen]

94. How is HoF responsible for everything everyone posts re: feminist issues?!

You blame our "mean little club" for posts made by anyone at all, just because it's about feminist issues?



So ... what ... you want us to all shut up so you don't have to see any threads about it? FFS, just hide them if they bother you so much! How difficult is this?!

[NoOneMan]

97. Its not difficult to ignore the bullying and let some other sad sap get piled on

Honestly, I've gone a long time without ignoring people and hiding threads/groups, but it doesn't make DU any better. I'm doing my best to fix that these last few days. See, everyone can self-improve, even if it involves ignoring other DUers.

[redqueen]

101. What sad sap got piled on?

Are you referring to Recursion's thread?

[NoOneMan]

103. I'm referring to the entire idea of letting bullying go unchallenged

Sure, you don't have to deal with it but someone else on DU likely will. And honestly, I could give a damn anymore.

And sorry if you aren't following. Its hard as hell to carry on in a subthread when the entire thing is ignored.

[redqueen]

107. Oh, I'm following all right. nt

[BainsBane]

112. Here's the deal. You make an argument, you get challenged on it

The fact your point doesn't hold water doesn't make the responses bullying. What is clear that the "entire thing" you resent is the articulation of feminist views in public. You claim you don't hate feminists but only our "little club," while your examples aren't even from HOF or HOF members. It's clear you are either unable or unwilling to express your ideas clearly. Having that pointed out is not bullying. It's the function of having a discussion on a public board. No one here has insulted you in any way. We have not accused you of being part of some cabal or "little club." We have pointed out that your argument doesn't make sense in any rhetorical manner.
Clearly this is about your own sense that you should be able to denounce HOF members or any discussion of women's issues without having your ideas challenged. If you can't handle the discussion, then don't engage. Calling people uncivil and bullies for disagreeing with you is far more insulting than anything anyone here has said to you. No one here has a responsibility to coddle you.

[Sheldon Cooper]

95. "mean little club"???

How old are you?

[NoOneMan]

98. I'm trying to reciprocate the level of observed discourse

Judging by your response, I have accomplished my goal

[Sheldon Cooper]

99. lol

You're funny. Quite unintentionally, I'm sure. Do carry on...

[BainsBane]

105. You "don't hate feminists"

You just think every post having to do with women or sexism is the fault of HOF. Your argument, such as it was, has completely fallen apart. The main point seems to be you read a couple of threads you didn't like and decided to blame a "little club" for your own feelings about those threads, even when members of said "little club" didn't even post the thread in question.

[Waiting For Everyman]

114. "one of the eager female cohorts"

Your description for women DUers who disagree with the vocal minority. You're quick to point out NoOneMan's words, but you give your own free reign.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125533280#post22

Eager to do what, is what I'm wondering, exactly? Suck up to men, is that what you had in mind? I'd like to know what "eager" was supposed to imply? Because frankly, I don't think I'm liking it much. Neither do a few other women who have said so. TIA.

[BainsBane]

117. Wow,. you must really miss Meta

Rape culture has long been left in the dust.

[polly7]

128. Because women who don't agree with every single word of the HOF experts on all things

gender related don't have the intelligence to have an original thought on the issues?

Not meaning to offend, but that's incredibly arrogant and narrow-minded and reminds me of stuff I heard on the playground in grade 6 or 7. Again, no offense. Are you of the belief that we're dogs, too?

[Waiting For Everyman]

138. Good to know.

I'm sure all the women you meant by that term will be interested in the clarification.

Sheldon Cooper
122. Yep. Suck up to the men.

View profile
That is exactly what I mean, so you figured it out just fine. Sorry if you're offended, just calling it like I see it.

I for one, am not buying that you're sorry at all, I think you fully intend to be offensive. At least now though, it can't be said that we misunderstood you.

[LadyHawkAZ]

144. Clarification:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1255&pid=30309

[polly7]

147. Now that linked post was 'pathetic'. nt

[LadyHawkAZ]

176. Hi Polly!

Hope you're having a happy holiday season!

[polly7]

177. Hey LadyHawk!

I am, thank you!

I hope you and yours are as well!

I'm a bit sore from snowmobile skiing yesterday and face-planting numerous times, but it was fun!

[Waiting For Everyman]

159. Wow! Hadn't seen that one before.

That's a whole lot of offensive, right there.

Talk about some attitudes that need changing!

I notice who was reinforcing it in that subthread too. What a surprise.

[LadyHawkAZ]

175. Some people really hate it when uppity feminists talk back. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

148. Just because another woman disagrees with you doesn't mean she's sucking up to men...

Most people don't divide the world into something where men are the bad guys and any woman that doesn't agree with what another woman says is sucking up to anyone. The reason I find it offensive is that it's not something I'd expect a feminist to say with the clear implication that women can't think for themselves. It was a nasty and immature thing to say, especially after seeing you chide people in this thread for being nasty...

[BainsBane]

169. From my perspective, the problem is not disagreement

Now I may be thinking of something entirely different from Sheldon, so I speak only of my own experience here. My problem is not with posters, whether male or female, who disagree with me on issues. What I find particularly frustrating is that some people don't engage with issues at all but rather attack certain individuals based, so it seems, on personal dislike more than anything else. In such cases, I have no idea what those members' views are, other than they seem to align themselves with certain members against others.
I see no reason why I need to look more favorably on the female members who behave in such ways than I do the male members. I find that particular approach to discussion unproductive and just plain ugly, whether the poster is male or female. That they might do so doesn't mean they can't think for themselves, but nor does it mean I need to like how they choose to deal with discussions.

[niyad]

106. "I don't blame feminists. I like feminists--well, except for the ones who speak out, who tell the

truth about women's lives, who make me feel uncomfortable when I assume that everything they are saying is directed to me . . "

at least, that is what your post seems to imply. am I incorrect?


Sister Militant
AiC, PDH, remdi95
Blessed Order of the Sisters of Perpetual Outrage

[NoOneMan]

108. I think if we both want to spend our time pretending what the other is implying....

We would be better of arguing with the wall. You've taken just another opportunity to concretely illustrate how your patterned discourse is divisive and anything but constructive by using a blatant strawman argument. The miscommunication issues on DU are anything but accidental in regards to discussing gender issues. Until they are addressed, I do not see these problems being resolves and the return of civility.

[BainsBane]

110. "incivility"

Meaning pointing out that your argument is incoherent? What is remotely uncivil about her post?

[niyad]

118. oh dear, MY discourse is divisive, etc., etc., again with the "tone" yes? that particular argument

was old ago when I first heard it, and has not improved with age or use. very funny, thanks for the much-needed laughs.

[NoOneMan]

121. Tone is crucial to effective communication

And if you commonly find yourself dismissing people who criticize your tone, it may simply indicate that they have a valid concern. I have long considered--personally speaking--that disregarding constructive criticism to be a deep character flaw. I do think it is a natural defense mechanism to find an explanation for criticism--any mind you--that avoids looking inwards.

[BainsBane]

125. Really? Yet you have disregarded a great deal of it in this thread

As well as the criticism by the jurors who hide so many of your own posts.

You go round and round but you refuse to say what you really mean: keep your mouth shut about feminist issues because it pisses me off.

[niyad]

129. perhaps you should read, and heed, your own advice then. and consider that hearing the "tone"

argument for years used to silence women didn't impress me then, does not impress me now. but keep trying, some day, some person might actually pay attention to you instructions for how to conduct discourse on issues that affect THEM.

[NoOneMan]

132. I definitely will to be honest

Its all too easy to be caught up in the divisiveness and get snarky. Its definitely not constructive any more than dismissing someone's criticism as some nefarious tool of silence.

[BainsBane]

109. "Bullying"

Translation: my argument can't hold up to theirs.

On one hand, they claim there are only a couple of us "wackos." On the other, they complain that we "bully" due to the fact that more than one woman responds to a post. So if our numbers are so insignificant, how can we descend en masse as "bullies." The crime seems to be arguing a point of view that he doesn't want to read.

[niyad]

119. I am pretty sure there is a feature on this board called "ignore" or some such, if we are all so

uncivil, divisive, etc. the sheer contradictions of their various arguments seems to escape them.

[BainsBane]

123. Exactly

Especially considering there are supposed to be so few of us. I in fact posted a thread to that effect the other night after one member engaged in a rather spectacular attempt at a flameout, complete with a nasty callout of Seabeyond.
This was my thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024222212

[Electric Monk]

82. The Meta Forum served a usefull purpose imho, for providing a venue for spillover threads like that

If we can't have talks about talking about what we're talking about, it becomes difficult or even impossible to have any sort of honest and open talks about issues at all. Imho. It just gets drowned in bullshit. But then, of course, that's how some like it. And for reason.

[nomorenomore08]

135. Strawmen 101... Is that *really* all you took from these discussions?

[NoOneMan]

136. Not all. From the "kerfuffle" causing ones, yes.

(and I don't think this OP is among the kerfuffle-causing ones).

But frankly, I've also seen some kerfuffle from sane and normal threads full of people already at eachother's throats. Sometimes the pissing has little to do with the content of the OP that its in.

[cinnabonbon]

80. Good comment! nt

[Lunacee_2013]

85. Reading this, I just can't help but think

of that horrible case in Texas. The one were the victim was suspended from her school instead of her rapist.

[BainsBane]

92. That is a perfect example of rape culture in action.

[Vashta Nerada]

89. Really?

Again?

Wasn't this beaten down a few days ago?

Trash thread.

[Sheldon Cooper]

96. Congratulations!

[RobertEarl]

115. We do have a culture that accepts rape in most cases

Real men should begin making a change in our culture. So that one day we can claim that we had a culture in which rape was an accepted norm, but is no longer acceptable. All it takes is having a different mindset.

[Harmony Blue]

149. No there is no rape culture

in our country. Rape is illegal and furthermore most guys don't view men that rape in a positive light.

[BainsBane]

168. Rape is illegal everywhere

That doesn't mean that victims aren't shamed and that rapists get away with assault. Rapists in this country act with virtual impunity. Only 3% see jail time. You are wrong on every single level.

[chervilant]

170. No rape culture?

54% of college-aged men surveyed admitted that they would rape a woman,if they were certain they wouldn't get caught.

I encourage you to watch the documentary "The Bro Code."

[niyad]

130. for those who STILL need rape culture explained to them, read the following article, and the

added comment:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024240923

[Scootaloo]

142. I'm constantly surprised by the "duh, but, uh, what about..." posts in response to this

I can only conclude that some posters are being intentionally dense.

[UtahLib]

145. K&R

Happy to see the, mostly, civil discourse on such an important subject.

[Kurska]

151. "Rape culture is regarding violence as sexy" BDSM isn't rape culture

I know plenty of people who incorporate consensual violence into their sexual activity, they aren't rapists or encouraging the rape of anyone.

[Behind the Aegis]

158. Some of her points are spot on, others are not, and some are just ignorant.

Rape culture is treating straight sexuality as the norm. Rape culture is lumping queer sexuality into nonconsensual sexual practices like pedophilia and bestiality. Rape culture is privileging heterosexuality because ubiquitous imagery of two adults of the same-sex engaging in egalitarian partnerships without gender-based dominance and submission undermines (erroneous) biological rationales for the rape culture's existence.

No, that is not and example of 'rape culture.' That is heterosexism and homophobia, which is not a part of rape culture. Furthermore, her definition is simply absurd. I am sick and tired of people trying to co-opt the LGBT experience into their own and excluding us, that is heterosexist!

Rape culture is using the word "rape" to describe something that has been done to you other than a forced or coerced sex act. Rape culture is saying things like "That ATM raped me with a huge fee" or "The IRS raped me on my taxes."

No, this is simply the evolution of a word, not dissimilar to the word "slave." "Rape" is also defined as "to spoil, to plunder, to abuse." It just so happens it also means "sexual assault." There are, of course, those who use it in a mocking manner, and that usage would be an example of 'rape culture.'

Rape culture is the insistence on trying to distinguish between different kinds of rape via the use of terms like "gray rape" or "date rape."

This is an overgeneralization. I have never heard the term 'grey rape' and looked at the link provided. There is nothing "grey" about those situations. If some use the term it is likely to make a distinction, and in doing so, doesn't necessarily mean the user is saying one type of rape is worse or better than another. Similar distinctions are made in murder and other crimes, it does not diminish them. Does she think "statutory rape" also diminishes rape?

Rape culture is television shows and movies leaving rape out of situations where it would be a present and significant threat in real life.

This is flat out STUPID! So it is rape culture to not portray every situation in which men and women are alone, that she must fear being raped?!

Rape culture is the pervasive narrative that there is a "typical" way to behave after being raped, instead of the acknowledgment that responses to rape are as varied as its victims, that, immediately following a rape, some women go into shock; some are lucid; some are angry; some are ashamed; some are stoic; some are erratic; some want to report it; some don't; some will act out; some will crawl inside themselves; some will have healthy sex lives; some never will again.

Despite leaving out men as victims, this is a paragraph that many need to read and commit to memory. There have been some recent posts about DU victims of rape speaking out, and some of the responses were beyond the pale. Like every rape, every victim has their own way of dealing with the assault and the journey to becoming a survivor. NO ONE should EVER be shamed for how s/he handles the after-the-fact of a rape!

[KitSileya]

166. I just want to address one of your points

Rape culture is television shows and movies leaving rape out of situations where it would be a present and significant threat in real life.

This is flat out STUPID! So it is rape culture to not portray every situation in which men and women are alone, that she must fear being raped?!

In many movies, they disregard a lot of the reality of women's lives. When a female protagonist walks home at night, without seeming aware of her surroundings. When she is never in danger of being raped no matter how much she's kidnapped by lowlifes or accosted at night. She can join an army in disguise, and the only danger if she is discovered is being sent home. It's about films with female journalists in war torn countries never worrying about being raped, just killed. It's about not acknowledging this dimension of most women's life - that we do plan our lives around the minimizing of risk - never leaving drinks at a bar, putting keys between your fingers when walking to your car, wondering if you did something to lead him on when your flatmate suddenly grabs you and kisses you out of the blue. To use an analogy, it's like all the films that never take into consideration that a black person wouldn't necessarily be able to walk unaccosted in a gated community, or even drive a fancy car everywhere without being stopped by police. (The only film I've seen that addressed the last point was MiB, where they had the blow-up doll to pretend someone was driving the car, but they had to change the Will Smith look-a-like doll because it kept being pulled over for DWB.)

[Behind the Aegis]

167. I still find the comment stupid and, actually, counterproductive.

There are many aspects to a movie. How many movies show people sleeping around but we never see the trips to the STD Clinic, and in many cases we don't see any mention of birth control. Films tend to reflect on the pressing situations of that particular film. I have seen a number of films with gays walking about undisturbed and without any hint of fear about being accosted...that is not a manifestation of homophobia, any more than not showing rape or women being deathly afraid of men is "rape culture." Read the link I provided in the post to which you responded and her example. Not including every possibility does not mean racism, homophobia, or in this discussion, rape are being ignored, minimalized, or mocked.

[KitSileya]

174. I see your point.

It isn't feasible or even wanted to have it included in every movie. But when almost no movies do, it gets...I guess it just adds another nail in the coffin of never being represented on screen, you know? And when it is never represented, it makes it more difficult to get people to understand one's life and experiences. And it doesn't have to be women "deathly afraid of men" - just an acknowledgement that women do take precautions, circumscribe their lives because of the risks.

[Silent3]

178. I can easily imagine a movie doing just what you describe...

...showing women taking precautions because they're afraid of rape, and then someone would be screaming that the movie shouldn't be telling (even if what merely showing) women that they have to be careful when it SHOULD HAVE BEEN TELLING MEN NOT TO RAPE!!!!!

[KitSileya]

179. Well, women already do everything they can to protect themselves, it's not like we need a PSA

However,
- rapists still rape,
- our culture still victim blames,
- many refuse to stop guys who joke about rape, and how they'd like to "tap that,"
- many refuse to stop their guy friends from taking drunk women home to have sex with them,
- many don't want to do anything when their women friends say they have been raped by a friend because they don't want to take sides,
- surveys show that many college guys would rape if they knew they wouldn't be caught

...so yet another PSA trying to tell women to circumscribe their behavior and dress, and limit their lives does end up looking like more victim blaming.

However, showing women's reality on film, even minutely, might make it easier for guys to understand the reality that most women live in. Many guys have had their eyes opened when asked what they do to keep themselves safe from rape - and then hear women describe what they do. Trust me, keys between the fingers is the least of it.

[Waiting For Everyman]

173. Excellent points.

I agree with you on each one. I'm sure though, if I had raised them, there would've been no end of additional arguments, so I decided to spare us all and forego. Glad you addressed it though, and so well.

Best post in the thread, I'd say.

[gulliver]

162. Nail any two boards together.

That don't make them a thing.

[NaturalHigh]

171. Oh FFS...here we go again.

Trashing thread.