An interesting film about women getting harassed in the street...

[shaayecanaan]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2012/aug/03/femme-de-la-rue-sexism-brussels-video

I definitely think that more women should do this, if only just to demonstrate how bad the problem is.

[seabeyond]

1. thank you for sharing that. nt

[gaspee]

2. But why isn't she flattered?!?!?

Gah - this makes me so mad and it's been 20 years since I've had to deal with that kind of crap!

Gets me on a visceral level!

[bettyellen]

16. the OP claims his wife thinks girls just pretend to be bothered to make her feel bad about herself.

instead of learning the grass is not all that greener, she imagined their lives were rosy and was jealous.
Gosh, teenagers can be silly.

[gaspee]

24. I just saw that

And threw up in my mouth a little bit.

His telling of her story may be true - in that case, I guess I cannot blame an immature person for not feeling empathetic toward young women who felt harassed.

Or he could be just trying to tell us that women are petty, conceited silly creatures.

Whatever.

[shaayecanaan]

33. Honestly, I posted the OP...

I wouldnt have done that if I didn't appreciate that the problem was genuine.

[gaspee]

34. When you posted the OP

that's what I thought. But then I read the other post and hit a little cognitive dissonance that it was coming from the same person.

[seabeyond]

59. that is what i did. couldnt grasp was the same poster. it is not complimentary to the wife, so

maybe not better to share.

secondly, the woman is not beautiful... she is lovely. but normal. nothing exceptional to create an... omg

that is what makes it so relevant, is this is the woman that most of us are.

[Matariki]

38. Thank you. These threads have been bringing up some absolute fury

that I thought I'd long forgotten.

[Little Star]

3. I'm to old for this to happen to me anymore....

but when I was younger the problem was bad. k&r and thank you for this OP.

[Leith]

26. Same here

It got scary sometimes. Why can't these jerks just let women be to go about their business without strangers harassing them?

[seattledo]

4. Sad to see so many men here...

defend this sort of thing in other threads.

[boston bean]

5. here is the youtube link

[seabeyond]

6. i watched a second time. breaks my heart. breaks my heart that there is such an unconcern

how this effects women. how it changes who they are.

tramp. whore. as she slows down, just tired, burdened.

[Whisp]

7. K&R

this is happening to millions of women every day but some creep asses think it's okie dokie! don't be a prude with thin skin!

fortunately, here on DU at least, there aren't very many (but still too many!) creep asses but mostly mature and caring men that get what we are talking about.

[Little Star]

28. +1

[G_j]

8. the behavior in the film is unacceptable

Any person should be able to walk down the street and not be harassed.
That should be a no-brainer.

[kcr]

12. And you'd think it could be discussed here at DU of all places

with out creep shaming! and men attacking! and oh, there's that small group of feminists again, telling everyone what to do! And then it's gender wars, aren't you sick of these gender wars! Both sides need to grow up and stop being mean!

[bettyellen]

14. the guys in this film are creepy and should be ashamed. Why is that so hard to understand?

[kcr]

15. Only one explanation. Trolling.

And they're getting away with it.

[bettyellen]

18. and hatred of women- for not giving them their attention on demand.

I had one guy approach me in the middle of a serious phone call, I was mid sentence in a very serious convo when he started in on me, much to the delight of his two friends. Criticising me for being serious on the phone! (smile!!)
I just put it on mute and said. "You are going to fuck the fuck off now". LOL. He seemed a little shocked his intrusion wasn't welcome.

[G_j]

20. those threads are a bit too long and crazy for me to wade through

so I haven't observed what you describe. What I just watched in the snippet of video is bullying. I cant imagine any sane person seeing it differently.

[kcr]

23. I know, but they do, or claim to

Our objection to this is twisted as telling men they shouldn't see women as attractive and they aren't allowed to look. Then threads are started bemoaning the attacks on men. Then it's all about the gender wars.

[mercymechap]

9. Surely not in the

USA!......

[shaayecanaan]

10. I had an interesting discussion with my wife...

who was reading over my shoulder last night as I read through a few of these posts.

There is a definite cultural element to all of this. I spent a fair bit of time in Africa and Lebanon growing up and also traveled around India and I noticed that in all three places that women were constantly being propositioned in the street. Constantly. The men in the video were pretty much all Moroccan, and this is probably not an aberration.

My wife grew up in Japan. She read some remark here about a poster's daughter constantly being greeted by men because she was so beautiful, and she said "sounds just like high school". The drop-dead gorgeous girls at school were always loudly complaining about how many times they had propositioned that day, and asking all the other girls if they had the same problem. If any non-gorgeous girl admitted that she generally didnt get harassed, the beautiful girls would sigh and say "oh you are so lucky!!" - the ultimate in backhanded compliments. The other girl was made to feel like she was an ugly dog that couldnt even get the attention of men in the street.

My wife hated these displays. She didnt get harassed much because she dressed demurely and lived in a working class town where people looked after their own. She felt under pressure though to say that she was harassed and she was annoyed at how disingenuous the whole exercise was.

She said that the beautiful girls did get a lot of unwanted attention and at times probably did get genuinely frustrated because of it. On the other hand, rich men probably get more unwanted attention than poor men, but ultimately that is a problem that is better to have than to not have. The girls that were ugly on the other hand were made to feel like they didnt even exist.

[bettyellen]

11. Disingenuous about the attention in the street?!?! - so are you hinting -"they wanted it" LOL. NO.

And you are basically saying your wives recollections are tinged with jealously.
I hear this a lot, those stuck up bitches- why won't they talk to every single man who is interested, instead of doing what they want to do with their time. Conversely, we hear that women are angry they don't get the attention. Interesting how it is ALL about what the dude wants. And how women go along with this bullshit.

[shaayecanaan]

32. I thought her perspective was interesting...

I am interested in hearing a range of women's voices on the issue. Im not interested in people that would dismiss any woman's opinion simply on the grounds that they didn't like what she had to say.

[bettyellen]

35. well, it appears she is saying they secretly enjoyed it. and only complain to make HER feel bad.

that is bizarre. Sorry she had self esteem issues back then, that led her to dislike other women. Sad she would devalue their experiences, but not too uncommon at all.

[seabeyond]

63. and i want to state clearly, it is not dismissing what for her is probably a very real experience in

high school. i got along with most all... so really did not have the issue. but, it is surely there. and this is not high school any more. this is an adult woman. walking down the street.

[bettyellen]

13. on one of my trips Paris was much worse than that, others it was very similar. Typical stuff.

NYC used to be a lot worse than it is now. I think maybe too many women sassed back.

[seabeyond]

19. i think it is not worse because we have worked on it in this country and continue to with awareness

which is all the discussion yesterday should have been. so we continue to become more aware and unaccepting of this behavior.

[bettyellen]

21. and things can be very regional or seasonal. my first few trips to Paris were similar to the video

low level but constant harassment. The third trip was absolutely crazy the amount I got manhandled. Insane, but there was a crazy spring fever thing going on, it had rained the whole month before.
A group of four men tried to haul me off in a car in broad daylight, on a very crowded street. It was so bizarre, unexpected. The policeman wouldn't help me, he just shrugged and laughed at my extreme distress. I just refused to let go of his lapels, and kept shouting help me, and they gave up. It is a beautiful city, but feel sorry for the women who have to endure that crap. I think it was four or five times strange men grabbed me to try and force me to kiss them out of no where. I lost count. Just weird.

[seabeyond]

22. and when they takled about the progressive of europe, this is their reality. much of it is just

machoism to extreme. they report rape even less than u.s. they have no sexual harrassment in work environment laws. it is fend for yourself. so progressive in some areas and less progressive in others.

[bettyellen]

30. I was reading about the current climate in Italy. No one wants to get married because they expect

her to work a job, cook home made, have as many babies as he wants, do tons of laundry (because then they cn stop mailing it to Mom), and endure his cheating on her, which is much more acceptable over there. Sad, because it is a beautiful place.

[seabeyond]

66. not to mention the blatantly offensive sexist television. the feminists in italy have been gearing

up

[bettyellen]

69. I saw some of that. I would move, LOL. So spoiled a princess am I, ha ha.

I actually left home sooner than planned because Mom insisted I wash my brothers clothes. While they went out and partied. Um, no Mom, bye bye!

[seabeyond]

77. lol. even way back when, my parents did not raise us as gender. my mom,

though traditional and would never claim to be a feminist, was very much so.

[shaayecanaan]

39. That is remarkable

that the policeman would stand by impasssively while you were abducted. Which part of Paris was this? I am genuinely interested.

[bettyellen]

47. this was up the road from the Latin Quarter, the biggest street. St Michel? It was as crowded as any

NYC street would have been, middle of the afternoon. It was a complete shock. They (3 or 4) had actually surrounded me, pulled me several feet towards the street and I initially thought it was some frat type joke or like a male hen party thing, and I'd get felt up or something. When I saw there was a car with a door ajar at the curb and more friends, I panicked like all get out. They were laughing the whole time. The laughing was pretty hard to understand. It still feels surreal how the cop smiled at my panic, and shook his head and shrugged. And they were okay looking young men, not ogres or any kind of bogey men. I was afraid I was going to get into trouble for grabbing the policeman!

I have travelled a lot of places independently, and this was completely bizarre. It really shook me up.

[bettyellen]

49. you know, just typing that. I realized why they were smiling and laughing. To make it appear we were

all having fun. I guess if you are going to try and steal someone off the street in broad daylight, it makes a good cover.
That never occurred to me before.

[passiveporcupine]

17. I suspect this video was highly edited...

to make it look worse than it is. But I've never been to France or Italy or other countries where this may be much more prevalent.

I have never experienced anywhere near the amount of harassment shown in this video, and when I was young I was very attractive. I did get looks, but only once can remember actual harassment, and it was directed at the young man I was with, for not being good looking enough to be with someone "like me". I was very embarrassed for him, because he was sensitive about his looks and was a very sweet guy. This happened in San Francisco at night as we were leaving a seminar. I doubt it would have happened in the day time. I've been wolf whistled at from groups of men from a distance (construction), but nobody came and hassled me in person.

I've had lots of guys look at me...but I was not out looking to see if they were ogling me, so maybe I just didn't see it? I find that kind of hard to believe. Or maybe I just didn't take men looking at me with admiration as an insult. And I admit, I was a fairly small breasted woman...so maybe larger breasted women get a lot more harassment. I had very pretty legs, and I know a lot of men looked at my legs. I sometimes wore short dresses or shorts because I liked to show off my legs and know they were appreciated by men and women alike. I was in a walkathon in Denver once and two of my female coworkers were walking behind me and I heard one say what pretty legs I had. I loved hearing that from her.

I just wonder how factual this video is, in it's presentation. I don't think American men are that bold about approaching pretty women. It seemed to me that most men were afraid to approach me.

[bettyellen]

25. are you actually saying that the men in this film were merely "appreciating" or approaching her?

And not harassing her? You seem not to know the difference?
this was absolutely typical of Italy and France when I was there. Pretty frequent in some areas of NYC too. Much rarer in Ireland and Britain. Why would you think people would lie or exaggerate- you seem to think this is somehow a negative comment on your looks? I keep hearing how this only happens to conceited girls, and I don't get it. We get to decide who we want to talk to or not. Jeeze.

[passiveporcupine]

27. No, I did not say that...you did

I said I've never seen that here in America, but then, I've never been to NYC, only San Fran, Portland, and Albuquerque and Denver. I've never seen this in those towns.

I think the film was edited to remove spots where she was not being harassed, to make it look like she got harassed that often all the time in a few minutes. Maybe that does happen in France and Italy. Maybe it doesn't happen that much here because we don't really walk that much here. Everyone drives everywhere.

I do know women who live in or near NYC, and Chicago and they have never indicated they suffer from anything like this.

[bettyellen]

29. it appears to be shot all in one day, but not in real time. there are obvious cuts. it was not

edited in a manner at all deceitfully. And your immediate reaction was that it was exaggerated, or to compare it to your own, completely different experiences of NOT being harassed. Why would that be germane to the topic at all?

I have been to Paris, Brussels and a few cities in Italy, and this video was typical of how a couple of hours would be. Except in Italy they usually did it with their forlorn wives standing right next to them. That was a bizarre twist.

[passiveporcupine]

36. I never said it was edited deceitfully

Just that I've never experienced anything like that here in America. I responded to this thread because there have been so many threads here lately bashing men here on DU who did not stand up and say "Yeah...men here in America are pigs". It feels like some women here really think all men in America are like this. I don't think they are. Some...yes. But most...no.

Do we need to keep working on treating women with respect? Yes...for sure. As I woman, I want respect and equality. But as long as we keep idolizing women in advertising to sell products, and women keep getting boob jobs to look like the women in those ads, I can't say I blame our culture problems entirely on the men.

Women need to start accepting that they are beautiful even if they don't look like a model. I will never have a model's body (even when I was a little too thin...I just wasn't built that way) and there were many times I wished I had bigger breasts, but I never would have gone so far as to have plastic surgery or a breast implant to try to be the perfect woman that everyone emulates. Women need to learn to love and respect themselves and quit playing up to the cultural "acceptable" look. Maybe if more did, men would too.

[bettyellen]

41. the women who stand up to street harassment are respecting themselves- whatever their cup size.

I have not seen one person say it is most men here- link me up please!! I can give you ten where men claimed it was said, but they haven;t supplied any either.
I have seen three people here (including you) say this was deceptive, maybe the women enjoyed it/ it wasn't so bad, or that it is about their looks. All nonsense to undermine these women.

What motivates you to think that accusing people who are trying to stick up for themselves, and gain respect, are trying to be deceptive- or compare it to things like you experienced- which were not harassment? You may want increased respect for women, but minimizing and claiming deceit where none is to be found, is not supportive.

[passiveporcupine]

51. Betty, you seem to be eager to turn my words into something they are not

I never said "most men here"...I said men here. You are reacting emotionally to my posts, instead of trying to hear my real message.

I said it may have been edited to make a political/social point. That is not uncommon on the internets.

I never said "women enjoyed it"...again you are pushing your own agenda here. I said I've never seen this...to this degree, or even close to it, here in America. I did not say what was in the video was acceptable or that women should be flattered by it.

Again...try to approach this issue without all the drama. Please.

[bettyellen]

54. i am laughing at you imagining all this emotion. you said your wife imagined it was disingenuous

when other girls complained (hence it didn't bother them) and claimed people were saying it was MOST men harassing.
Just as you claimed it was an exaggeration. All minimizing, but I realize it is mixed in with your wife's teenage recollections. Trust me, I have seen enough completely unempathetic crap from women who it has never happened to, that this is nothing new. There seems to be this school of thought that this is a sacrifice pretty girls should happily make, or else they are haughty princesses. Some people are more interested in rehashing their petty HS jealousies than giving people here credit for being honest about their experiences. Sad to see.

[passiveporcupine]

57. You seem to be confused

I am a woman. I've never had a wife. Maybe you are mixing my posts with someone else's?

[bettyellen]

61. Sorry, yes! Tried to carry on too many conversations. Just saw way too much knee jerk minimizing

going on here. My apologies!

[seabeyond]

72. passive, you dismissed others experience. and i let it go, and respected your voice.

your experience. but... you were dismissive. and too many women have other experiences. theirs count also.

[passiveporcupine]

86. I am not dismissing anyone's experiences.

I am merely stating my own experiences and what I've seen living in America.

[seabeyond]

87. i understand you feel that way. i am sugggesting others may feel it dismissive.

anyway. nothing more. just something to consider.

[passiveporcupine]

91. Thank you

I don't intend to dismiss anyone's feelings. I do, however, think that some people might be too eager to attack others for not supporting their hot button issues to the degree they want them to.

Rationality is a trait that is hard to find sometimes. You need to turn off the anger to try to see not just your perspective, but everyones. That does not in any way diminish the real causes. We must continue to fight for the causes...but we don't need to exaggerate them.

[shaayecanaan]

43. I have no doubt that its absolutely genuine...

I have seen in the UK (in certain areas) women being propositioned in this way. It is terrible to see. I am an immigrant myself so I am a bit ashamed to see it is a problem with certain immigrant communities.

[bettyellen]

64. I grew up in the Bronx, same story.

[treestar]

75. On a trip to Spain in the 70s

Were were told we could not even walk outside alone. Had to be with another girl or a guy or a group. Or we were presumed to be prostitutes.

[Little Star]

31. Well I came from a smallish town when there were still main streets...

where people walked from store to store and it most certainly happened then & there in small town USA.

But naturally us wimmin just lie about this kind of harassment.

[passiveporcupine]

40. I'm not accusing anyone of lying

And I certainly sympathize with anyone who has had to put up with a lot of crap. But I'm sixty four years old now, and I've lived in small rural towns and in bigger metro areas and towns and I've never seen this.

I just wonder how much of this really goes on in this country, if I've lived this long and moved around so much and just not seen it. It's not like I haven't been abused either. I was flashed when I was a teen (scared the hell out of me), and I was sexually abused by my step father, and almost by the father of a friend. I know there are a lot of problems that women have to overcome in this country. I just don't think the view in America is as pessimistic as in other countries where women really are treated as objects or property. Do we have more to accomplish...yes. I'm not denying that. But we don't need to exaggerate it to make it more true. An edited tape that makes it look like a woman is being hassled every few feet she walks down the sidewalk, is no less exaggeration than any edited tape to portray a political view.

[Little Star]

53. All I can tell you is...

that in my 67 years of life I have known more women that this kind of thing has happened to than ones that haven't. It was still happening to me in my mid forties for Pete's sake. Same with many of other women I've known in my life too.

And like you, there are many of us who have been sexually abused also. This country is no better in that aspect than any other. You can take that fact to the bank.

[passiveporcupine]

55. I know my mother was harassed by her boss

even chased around a desk once, so she quit and found another job. I've been harassed by a male boss too, and fortunately, when I confronted him, he apologized and backed off. I know it happens. I'm not denying that. I'm just saying I've not seen the proliferation of female harassment that some of these posts seem to be pushing. Maybe I've been blind to it all?

[Little Star]

58. I thought I lived a some what sheltered life but...

you seem to have me beat. Yes, for some reason you have been blind to it.

[bettyellen]

82. I was fired for not sleeping with my boss. I had put up with petty harassment and sexual comments

for years at other jobs, but that was too much to ask. I had no idea that is why he hired me. He had a wife AND a mistress, WTF.
That's my benevolent sexism story, I got a job because someone thought I was sexy. Lucky me.

[Sheldon Cooper]

88. Cool story, bro.

[Vashta Nerada]

37. This morning, a poster told me a guy saying "hello" to a woman

On the street is just as bad as what's being done in this video.

I kid you not.

[bettyellen]

42. they saw this video and described it to you this morning? Cool story bro. Link please.

[Vashta Nerada]

46. Not this video.

Read here:http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4222127

[bettyellen]

60. where she explains to you she considered it INCONSIDERATE, not creepy? Seriously dude? LOL.

the kid goes through this a dozen times a day, been there and it adds up. especially if, as typical, many expect to continue the conversation. Yup, it win;t all not creepy hellos. Why do people think attractive people have time for this nonsense?

[Vashta Nerada]

62. I never said creepy.

Has reading comprehension been thrown out the window today?

[bettyellen]

67. "same as this video" = not creepy to you. Orly? Now I KNOW you are playing games. Bye bye!

[Vashta Nerada]

70. I'm going to weep uncontrollably.

[bettyellen]

71. or slither away under a bridge. HA.

[Vashta Nerada]

73. Like you and a few others?

[Matariki]

45. As it's been explained a kabillion times already

this is not about saying 'hello'.

The word 'hello' was used in the OP's video plenty of times - do you think that's what the subject was about? Men just wanting to say 'hello'? Seriously?

[Vashta Nerada]

48. Yeah. Okay.

Except "hello" was specifically usedhttp://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4222127

[Matariki]

50. Yes, and nearly every woman who's experience this stuff knew exactly what she meant

It's NOT just a friendly 'hello' and moving on. Do you seriously think that would be what's bothering women?

I can't help but think you are being disingenuous. But if you aren't, then I would happily try to explain.

[Vashta Nerada]

52. It isn't even your goddamn post.

Go bother someone else.

[Matariki]

65. You really don't want to hear anything women have to say.

I didn't say anything unreasonable to you and your reaction is just pathetic.

[Vashta Nerada]

68. You're butting into something that has nothing to do with you.

Your screen name isn't "Luminous Animal", is it?

[Matariki]

74. I'm on a fucking public discussion board.

One I've participated on for 10 years now. Unlike you, who has been here for a few months, months spent mostly insulting people.

[Vashta Nerada]

76. Thanks for clarifying your post, Luminous Animal.

Oh, wait.

I feel so special that you've been paying attention to my posts.

[Matariki]

78. Interesting

For a relative newbie you sure like to insult people here. I'm guessing you managed to stay under the radar during the period mirt would have addressed your issues.

[Vashta Nerada]

79. Maybe, just maybe, I find it annoying when a poster tries telling me what

Another poster meant in his/her post.

Begone. I'm finished addressing this.

[Matariki]

80. Ah well, tough luck for you then.

Begone, indeed.

[bettyellen]

84. like when you claimed Luminous said, Inconsiderate = as creepy as this video? Just stop with the BS

[Vashta Nerada]

85. Nice straw man.

I thought you ignored me?

I see the usual cast of characters are here and shit is being flung. Coincidence?

Hmm.

[seabeyond]

83. 46 posts i asked him who he was. he didnt want to share. i have an idea. nt

[Sheldon Cooper]

89. It's Pab, I'm guessing.

[seabeyond]

90. that would be interesting. nt

[Little Star]

56. Bingo!

[Matariki]

44. The sad thing is that the film isn't even an exaggeration.

I've had walks like that. A non-stop gauntlet.

The only part I'd say was different from reality is where she's reading a book. Those guys wouldn't be staying away, but using it as an excuse to 'talk' to her.

[DanTex]

81. K&R. People who don't understand the severity of this issue should watch this.

PS I think it would be useful to edit and post a link to the youtube video in the OP, in case some people don't click through: