How did "creeps" and socially awkward men become conflated?

[DanTex]

Men who ogle at or harass women on the street are not shy and introverted. These are different groups of people.

As both a scientist and a former athlete, I've known my share of nerdy men and also frat-boy jock types. And, while there are plenty of confident and athletic guys who are also good people, and there are also some dorky types who are sexist assholes, by and large the sexist jerks are much more plentiful in the locker room than in the computer lab. Why? Probably for the same reason as those experiments where the rich people are more selfish than poor people. Especially at a young age, people who get used to being at the top of the heap become cocky and entitled. And by the way, this doesn't just happen with men -- the "mean girl" phenomenon is real also.

The dating game, especially for younger people, can be rough on both sexes for people that don't fit in. No need to pile on to awkward young men by insinuating that the real reason they don't have more success with the opposite sex is that they are actually sexist assholes. Because that's not the reason. The real reason is simply that women tend to go for confident, handsome, successful men. And, BTW, I'm not saying that women have any obligation to give dorky men the time of day, any more than men have any obligation to give unattractive women as much attention as attractive women.

And finally, everyone try to be more understanding of each other. Women who talk about street harassment aren't doing it as an excuse to man-hate or creep-shame. They are doing it because this is a real problem that affects their lives, and it is a problem that men don't have to deal with. On the other hand, life is no cake-walk for men either, and most of us are good people who don't harass anyone.

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about.

[RedCappedBandit]

1. Thank you.

I'm shy, awkward, introverted, nerdy, what have you.

I'm not an asshole nor am I a creep. I don't think I'm entitled to anyone's attention. Like you said, nobody is obligated to give anyone else the time of day.

Not being a confident doesn't make one a creep. There are nice, shy, introverted people just like there are nice, outgoing extroverted people. And there are creepy, awkward introverts and creepy, confident extroverts. And any combination thereof.

I don't think most people are actually saying that awkward or shy men are creepy. But there have been a few posts making it feel that way.

I do feel that this whole thing is the result of miscommunication. There is a difference between noticing when someone looks nice, male or female, and staring at them in a disturbing manner and making them feel uncomfortable or unsafe.

Another poster said it well. This reeks like a strawman coming from the MRA group, who want to make it seem like they're being victimized for simply looking. When that's not the case.

[ismnotwasm]

6. No it doesn't make you a creep

And I think the message got lost somewhere, that women are uncomfortable with leering, not shyness. I completely agree with you.

Shyness or awkwardness is often considered 'cute' by young woman BTW ( I'm a nurse and I work with a lot of women) NOT creepy.

[JHB]

19. Here's an essay that seems relevant to this discussion

It's on sexual harassment at SF/comic/anime/insert-your-fandom-here conventions

There’s been a lot of talk about recently, a great deal of online sharing of experiences from the women who have been on the receiving end of unwanted groping—or worse—in what is supposed to be a safe place for geeks of stripes. Which has been wonderful, for reasons I’ll get into. But I’m seeing so many of the same responses to these discussions that I’m not sure everyone understands what con harassment really is. And by “everyone” I’m really talking about dudes. Women seem to understand this just fine. So, let’s sit down, guys, and talk this out. Bro to bro.

To start with, con harassment is rarely done by socially awkward men. I see this confusion over and over. Socially awkward men may have uncomfortable conversations. They may spend too much time staring at woman’s cleavage. They may not take a hint that a conversation is done. But if you’ve ever spent some time around socially awkward men (and you probably have, it’s a big world) you may have noticed that they don’t touch people. Touching adds an extra layer of complication to social interaction, one that can easily be avoided by not touching. So they don’t.

Because—and let’s be clear on this guys—while awkward conversations and horrible sexist speech are problems, the big concern in con harassment is physical violation. Groping, inappropriate touching and other, worse forms of invasion of a woman’s personal space. This is rarely done by social awkward men.

The kind of guys who grope women at cons are socially aware. They can recognize social signals of when a women is with a man who cares about her, or when she is functionally “alone.” They know when the social contract of silence can be enforced, when the atmosphere of drunkenness will provide them with an excuse, when they can have an easy getaway. These are not socially awkward men. Often they are talkers, practiced in using social rules to get what they want. Because they think they can get away with it.

The rest at:
http://www.jaredaxelrod.com/main/2013/07/02/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-con-harassment/

[ismnotwasm]

2. I have no idea

They are two separate situations. To me, shyness or social awkwardness is entirely different from assholes leering at women.

Women can be very shy and socially awkward or not considered attractive by modern standards as well.

Being kind, even making a small extra effort to be kind is a lovely way to live life, and these threads would be less contentious if we all could do that. I see that a couple of these threads may have been started by the socially awkward, and the responses were not very kind. Online it's so hard to tell intent.

Happy Holidays, to you and thank you for a thoughtful post

[FreakinDJ]

5. Well said

[ismnotwasm]

7. ..

[1StrongBlackMan]

10. +1 ...

I think most of these attempts to conflate creepiness with socially awkward are merely attempts to deflect/excuse creepiness, as some innocent misinterpretation of conduct ... by the woman, of course, of the innocent male.

I liken it to a white person telling a Black person that what he/she just did/said wasn't racist ... yet another defense of privilege.

[enough]

18. And +1 to you. To whatever extent these two things are being conflated,

I think you have explained the motivation.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

21. perfect analogy, thank you

Creepy men use lies --c'mon baby I'm just nerdy. I'm just socially awkward we guys can't help ourselves, you women are being mean--to hide behind and blame women for rejecting their assholish behavior.

[nomorenomore08]

107. Great post. Happy Holidays!

[ismnotwasm]

116. To you as well

[raging moderate]

3. Very true.

As an unattractive woman, let me say that I am grateful to those men who have taken the time to be courteous to me. I realize they cannot make themselves fall in love with me any more than I can make myself fall in love with men who don't attract me. I long ago made my peace with the facts of life and contented myself with the one chance at marriage and children and otherwise full life I could build. The romantic dreams pushed by TV and movies and popular music are not real life, anyway. I got much happier when I stopped listening to the latest hits on my car radio. There is so much more to life! So many splendors! It is silly to focus only on one aspect.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

17. There is more to beauty than surfaces.

Minds

Hearts

Strength

Courage

There is much more to romance than storybook romance. True romance often starts small and builds and endures for a very long time. It is out there for you.

[seabeyond]

29. i really love the the balance and grounding in your psot that allows you to

embrace all of who you are in your reality to create what you have to be happy and fulfilled. this is such a positively self honest post that i admire so. thank you for sharing on du

[11 Bravo]

96. I've spent the last 23 years married to the love of my life, but that doesn't mean ...

that you don't sound awfully damned attractive. Trust me, for more than just a few of us the inside trumps the outside.

[Spider Jerusalem]

4. Shyness and introversion aren't the same thing.

[1StrongBlackMan]

8. In my opinion ...

"creeps" and "socially awkward men" haven't been conflated ... except maybe in the minds of those attempting to excuse "creepdom." (Not directed at you)

From reading the posts on the subject, the women here are not conflating the two; but rather, have presented a very specific set of grievances: Creepdom=Leering, threatening, objectification and a general disregard for the personhood of the person being creeped out; whereas, socially awkward=well ... socially awkward.

While the socially awkward guy might not get the girl, it's not because their actions set off the threat-warning bells, it's because they are awkward; whereas, the creeps have never gotten into the getting the girl stage because they set off those warning bells.

[etherealtruth]

9. Your post displays a lot of insight

Most of us (women and I am sure men) understand the difference and are not at all "creeped" out by a socially awkward man or woman. When in the presence of someone socially awkward I go out of my way to try to put them at ease ... the other group, I try to get the hell away from!

[1StrongBlackMan]

12. And to extend my thought, a bit ...

that is not to say that the socially awkward man is not/cannot be creepy.

When the socially awkward guy expresses that awkwardness by being sexual ... that's creepy.

[etherealtruth]

14. Yeah

The two are not mutually exclusive

[DanTex]

16. Actually, creeps do get the girl.

Unfortunately, "getting the girl" is not a particularly persuasive reason to stop being sexist and objectifying women. And it's also not the right reason. Being respectful to women is not a means to an end. The reason to stop being a creep is because of basic human decency.

I'm not saying that being a sexist creep is helpful in attracting women. What I am saying is that, as a practical reality, objectifying women is not a major impediment to success in dating. It might be morally satisfying to believe that it is, but by and large it's not the case.

[1StrongBlackMan]

20. I agree ...

with much of what you say. However, I do not consider being sexist (with its attendant, objectification) to be necessarily "creepy" ... (though this man thinks, if he were a woman, I would find it unattractive), as being sexist does not pose a physical threat (again ... from a man's perspective).

[hunter]

37. "Success in dating," "get the girl..." sorry, that's starting to sound a little creepy.

Success in dating is getting along with the woman you are dating. The socially awkward man is not going to get along with women attracted to the "sexist creep."

I'm a socially awkward, very introverted science person. I'm diagnosed Asperger's. I could count all the women I dated on one hand. Approaching the age of thirty I married the only woman I ever "successfully dated." We have kids.

It was my good fortune to grow up in a matriarchal household. My dad's an artist who had a good union job before he retired. Now he's a full time artist. The women in my family and my wife's family are wild west. They have zero tolerance for creepy men. They taught their boys to respect women. They taught their girls to respect themselves and not tolerate creepy men.

[Comrade Grumpy]

69. You must have missed this. Pretty much the opposite of what you're suggesting:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024221727

[1StrongBlackMan]

100. How so? n/t

[seattledo]

70. danger

> socially awkward=well ... socially awkward.

Not quite. Very often they are that way because they are embarrassed by their own thoughts and bad desires. They know they're dangerous and harmful so they become harmful. You still need to be very careful around socially awkward males because there is very often a good reason they are ashamed of what they want to do. Don't give them a chance to do it.

[DanTex]

76. What? Very often?

Umm, no. Most people who are socially awkward, male or female, are that way because they are. They don't fit in, they get picked on when they are young, they don't excel at the things that society values and so on. It has nothing to do with being embarassed about their own evil desires. Nothing whatsoever.

Suggesting that people who don't fit in are that way due to their own evil thoughts is just as bad as blaming homeless people for being homeless.

[nomorenomore08]

109. What you say has little to no basis in reality. And "awkward" men don't need to be demonized

like this. Only makes things worse for them, if anything.

[Harmony Blue]

11. Because it is subjective

What one person calls someone socially awkward someone else calls that same person a creep.

[TexasProgresive]

13. Here's two "socially awkward" charactors from The Big Bang

Sheldon and Howard. Sheldon would be totally clueless if he insulted someone man or woman. Howard on the other hand will leer, make crude comments and so forth about women he finds attractive. And when his attempts at "sophisticated" batter fail he is aware of it.

I know I didn't write that sensibly but my point is that nerdy types are not all the same. Some are creeps and some just don't quite fit socially.

[seabeyond]

30. absolutely. making socially awkward cool and lovable. the only show i watch. i love the characters.

[etherealtruth]

36. Perfect

(this is one of the very few tv shows I know anything about)

[treestar]

15. Where did that happen?

It didn't happen at all as far as I can see.

Nerdy men aren't the ones who do that sort of thing - they don't have the confidence, I guess it can be said.

Though maybe they are more likely to be MRA types on the internet. I was the type they would ask out. I didn't want to. That likely made them mad. I remember getting a few nasty comments after rejecting the dates. It seems they had an inherent right to be "given a chance."

[DanTex]

28. For example...

Now, I need to point out the main problem here… Most men are not as skilled in communication as women. A lot of guys are really bad at it. And most women, especially the ones that like guys, are just sick and tired of dealing with bad communicators, especially when they come off as creepy and potentially threatening. But most of all, most women don't feel as if the intrinsically privileged position of men should be enough to compensate for the lack of male communication skills.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024220427

Creepiness and harassment have nothing to do with bad communication skills. Harassment is harassment. Objectification of women and sexism are just that. Bad communication skills are an entirely different animal. Men who whistle at women on the street aren't exhibiting "bad communication skills". They are exhibiting assholish harassment.

And then there's this one...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024221727

[seabeyond]

32. the second was done because SOME men were defending the leering with socially awkward.

the second Op was to say, nerd, socially awkward does not a creep make.

[DanTex]

39. I'd say that at the very least that quote has an unpleasant tone.

It made sense in the context of the movie because the Zuckerberg character was actually being a jerk (though not in a particularly sexist way, more just arrogant). Outside that context, the implication of the quote if a man has trouble meeting women, it's not because he's a nerd but because he's an asshole. That's largely not true. Not being able to meet women easily has much more to do with social awkwardness than meanness. At the very least, this quote carries with it some negativity towards men who have trouble meeting women.

[seabeyond]

40. i think the reason it probably resonated with the OP'er is cause we had been hearing all day,

social awkwardness was the excuse for inappropriate behavior. i do not know the movie.

but like we want a civility with this issue, it works both ways. honestly understanding why the op was put up instead of sitting in a reason we create to feel hostile. i was just presenting what i saw as the reason.

[DanTex]

48. Everyone's responding to something.

Instead of each successive rebuttal being more inflammatory than the last, it would be better the other way around.

[seabeyond]

51. i agree. you do not see me starting OPs. i never do. and the majority of what i do address

is when a falsehood is presented as a truth. hence, me in this thread, giving my opinion, when i feel mischaracterizations are being made.

[geek tragedy]

22. I agree, two completely different groups of people.

Of course, socially awkward people can come off the wrong way, but in general women know the difference--I'm not a woman, but I would go so far as to say that guys who aren't at least a little awkward around women are often (but not always) players

[Demeter]

23. Because "socially awkward" is a euphemism for Creep

The untutored, unpolished young men are not creeps, unless they choose to be. They are just inexperienced.

It takes a lot of practice and observation to become a social creature. If you didn't grow up with sociable parents, you have to work at it.

I know, because I did. And believe me, it wasn't easy.

[Vashta Nerada]

24. Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4221727

Socially awkward men are assholes, according to the OP.

[Demeter]

26. that's not what it says

It says you will be rejected for being an asshole.

[Vashta Nerada]

35. Yeah, read the thread title.

"Socially awkward men."

[treestar]

34. That differentiates between the two

The nerd won't be making the complaint about not being able to stare without consequences.

[grahamhgreen]

115. Really disturbing

[seabeyond]

25. good post dan. there was a lot talking about leering using it as an excuse for men,

i agree with you. that is not what it is about.

i have an oldest that is socially awkward. i never got him labeled. but that was one of my concern as he was growing up. at about 15 on du, i was reading a thread on the "nice" guy. the man that proclaims to be nice and demands he should have a hot woman. nothing much nice

i like nice guys. i do not like the idea of creating an image women want the bad boys that are disrespectful to them. anyway, one of the men posters had an excellent post addressing the nice guy. and the reason they are over looked is because they stand in the back ground. it was such an excellent post. speaking out about getting int he game ect...

i had my 15 yr old read that post. it was so well written, and probably one of the most accurate ways of getting thru to son what he needed to do, to be a part.

he put forth the effort to be a part and participate, du to that post.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

72. I have a hard time understanding your posts

What does this sentence mean? i never got him labeled.

What does this mean? he put forth the effort to be a part and participate, du to that post.

And what does this nugget of gibberish mean? it was such an excellent post. speaking out about getting int he game ect...


What game?

Please make an effort to communicate better.

[seabeyond]

74. i knew there were issues, as did the school and teachers. i never took him to the doctor to

label him

he read the post i was specifically mentioning and put forth the effort to participate socially. putting himself out there socially. which is what the post was addressing with the "nice guy" that stood in the background.

(so i take your post at good faith. then i get to the insult. feeling i am wasting my time. "nugget of gibberish mean". why did you feel the need to insult me when you were asking for clarification and i was willing to give you my time to clarify?)

again, the post i was referring to, talking about the nice guy stepping forward and being socially available. but... from your jab, i highly doubt you have any true interest in understanding where i was coming form.

so

done

ah... i see you needed to throw out one more jab at the end. how about you simply ignore my posts.

[retread]

86. I never have trouble understanding your posts. You do have a unique style and I suspect some use

that as a way to attack. It's a craven way to "score points" rather than engage honestly on the issues.

[seabeyond]

92. i appreciate it retread. thank you. have a happy couple days. i am off to enjoy

the spirit of today.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

99. Attack what?

How the hell can one debate something that is undecipherable?

[Boudica the Lyoness]

89. I'm trying to understand what you are talking about

I am getting a headache from trying to decipher your posts and it's pissing me off. Jabs? I feel like you're punching me in my brain!

What a stupid thing to say to someone who's doing her best to understand you, "how about you simply ignore my posts".

No, how about you make more sense.

I don't believe in labels. Your son is probably a typical teen trying to figure himself and the world out. I raised two sons and I was amazed at the hard time they had, as far as females go. I had no idea men were so sensitive. For some reason, when I was in the dating scene, I thought they were all cocky and over confident. But now I guess that was the only type that was 'in my face'.

[xulamaude]

91. "it's pissing me off"

"punching me in my brain"

"how about you make more sense"

Really? No jabs, huh?

[Boudica the Lyoness]

98. Hey!

she doesn't need you sticking up for her. Or does she? lol

I AM woman hear me roar... I don't need anyone's help.

Yes, I jabbed her repeatedly and she had it coming. Someone has to tell her she's writing a load of bloody rubbish that is impossible to understand.

[xulamaude]

102. I don't have any trouble understanding what she says.

But that's me.

"She had it coming"? Good heavens.

[kcr]

104. I don't see a whole lot of people having much trouble understanding her

However well she writes, she certainly has more class.

[seabeyond]

93. take care of your boys. i will take care of mine. you have no idea...

and supposedly cannot understand my post. yet dismiss my oldest experience.

good bye

[Boudica the Lyoness]

97. Not boys

My sons are adults, not boys. The oldest one is almost 40. I raised them well, they are good men and love their mum.

Good riddance to you.

[kcr]

105. Good riddance? Where is she going?

Talking about not writing well.

[Katashi_itto]

27. K&R

[TransitJohn]

31. Latest gender wars on DU suck

I like your post's tone, though.

[mountain grammy]

33. Nice post.. I love the last line because what a better world it would be

if everyone just followed that simple rule. There are many ways to say "treat others like you would want to be treated," and even more ways to live it.

[Shankapotomus]

38. Just to contribute an added layer

to this discussion (not to refute or challenge any of the other healthy messages being posted), I always try to stay conscious of feminist thought and like to be considerate of what is acceptable within feminist boundaries.

However, just to present a pro-feminist experience from the perspective of someone who largely considers themselves a male student and ally of feminism, I seldom fall into the pitfalls that you describe occurring with "athletes" and "socially awkward" "introverts." I try to keep myself well informed and so I just don't make the kind of mistakes you describe.

So basically I wanted to say (without downplaying any of the experiences of feminist women) that not everyone's misogynous experience is a man on woman offense.

My own experience, as someone who is hyper aware of feminist thought, has been non-feminist or non-enlightened women either approaching or taking liberties with my mindset in ways that either presume or support misogynous attitudes.

[libodem]

41. I remember an NPR interview

With an articulate young FTM transperson who talked about the change over while the initiating testosterone into her system. She could not help checking out the hind quarters of female passersby. It was ackward. I loved the honesty it took to share the shame. A fine human being.

[hfojvt]

42. "women who talk about street harrassment"

Well there have been more than a few references to male's "privileged" position in these threads.

So there seems to be some denial of what you stated "life is no cake-walk for men either".

[nomorenomore08]

110. "Relatively easier" is not the same thing as "easy." Just saying.

I do recognize the inherent difficulties of being human, period.

[redqueen]

43. When creeps/assholes started trying to say 'I'm not a creep, I'm just socially awkward!'

Why they expect anyone else to believe what they've chosen as their comforting self-delusion is beyond me.

[Demo_Chris]

44. They're not. A creep is any guy who's attention is unwanted...

Even if he isn't actually devoting attention to the woman, and even if she is dressed or behaving in a way that all but demands attention. Creep is a title conferred by the woman on any man she desires, at her discretion. It is not within any man's power to change.

A man can learn to stop being socially awkward. It might be harder for some, but just as someone can learn the art of public speaking, a man can learn to talk to women. A man cannot control how individual women respond.

[kcr]

45. It's not within anyone's power to control what other people think

But to assert that it isn't within any man's power to change? Why not? How are men different in that regard? Human beings can't control what people think, but they can control how they themselves act. How is creepiness different than any other aspect of human behavior? Don't act creepy and people are much less likely to think you are. Same as any other trait. Your contention that women will just randomly find men creepy for absolutely no reason and there's nothing that men can do about it is ridiculous.

[Demo_Chris]

83. "Creep" is a subjective perjorative label, not an objective description of activities

It is no more objective than the word "suspicious" and perhaps less so. In the context the term has been used here lately, it's just a fancy label for any behavior that makes one uncomfortable. The purpose of the rebranding is self-evident -- saying someone is creepy is far more powerful and sinister than saying someone made you feel uncomfortable.

[kcr]

87. Right. Exactly so. How does that change what I've said?

That is the case with creep. That is the case with many subjective opinions. It's also true that women are human beings. We don't all think the same way or hold the same opinions, because they are subjective. We aren't a monolithic group who all think the same way. And while you cannot control the opinions held by others - men or women, you can control your own behavior. Throwing up your hands and saying "It doesn't matter what I do, women will still find me creepy!" is wrong. And if it's subjective, as you admit it is, then that position doesn't even make sense.

[Demo_Chris]

94. My objection is that you insist on using the term as something men DO, rather than something women f

My objection is that you are using the term to describe something men DO, rather than something women feel. The term is used to describe someone or something that made someone feel uncomfortable. That's ALL it means. A dark parking garage might be creepy, a homeless man walking down a deserted street, or that same street with no one visible. A guy in a suit on a bus, glancing once at a young girl then ignoring her the rest of the trip, might well scare the crap out of that girl -- while the same encounter might well pass unnoticed by a woman in her twenties. Creepy is how the 'victim' felt, not what the perpetrator did.

I understand that when you use this term to describe some guy's behavior, you have something specific in mind. And more, I suspect we would agree that the behavior is -- or could be-- disturbing. But where we might agree others do not, and have wildly expanded criteria. So let's stick to BEHAVIORS and talk about those without the labels.


NOTE: I have some work to do, so if you respond I will be back to read it later.

[kcr]

95. I'm doing no such thing

When have I done that? Yes, your definition of creep? That's the one I'd use too.

[nomorenomore08]

113. Of course it's subjective. All "labels" are. Doesn't make them invalid, though.

"... saying someone is creepy is far more powerful and sinister than saying someone made you feel uncomfortable." I'm not sure of that. I think you're ascribing more individual power and influence than really exists.

[redqueen]

67. Wrong.

The other popular counter-argument, of course, is that it’s not a matter of behavior but looks; that it’s only “ugly” men who are “creepy” and that handsome guys are never called creepy.

The infamous “Just Be Attractive” Saturday Night Live sketch gets bandied about as though it were some truth handed down from on high rather than a comedy skit intended for a quick laugh before segueing to Weekend Update and the musical guest.

This ignores the fundamental truth about creepy behavior: at it’s core it’s an issue of a violation of boundaries. Some people are able to get away with behavior that others are not – being sexually direct, making inappropriate jokes, standing well within an individual’s personal space – because boundaries are elastic. We are more willing to accept certain behavior from some people than others; people we know well are able to “get away” with more as it were. People who are socially well-calibrated are given more opportunities than a random stranger. We allow them greater leeway than others because they demonstrate through their behavior and actions that they understand where the line is – and this is important – how to step back from it when they get too close.

http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2013/04/how-to-reform-creeper/

[Demo_Chris]

88. My point Red is that we are not talking here about objective things...

As your link points out, the definition and boundaries are elastic. It is, in fact (and as I said) anything the 'victim' decides. A guy who has never even glanced in a woman's direction and might be completely unaware of her existence might be called creepy by one woman, while the next sees him as harmless.

This is not to excuse rude behavior, I just hate labels like this, and I apply that rule equally to similar labels that are thrown at women (terms like 'bitch' come to mind).

[kcr]

103. But really, all labels are are descriptive words.

"A guy who has never even glanced in a woman's direction and might be completely unaware of her existence might be called creepy by one woman, while the next sees him as harmless." This is true. But it's true of just about anything. No one on this planet is going to be universally loved in all aspects by everyone. And a man, through no fault of his own might get labeled a creep simply because a woman doesn't like him. That's life. Sometimes people just don't like us. But if someone repeatedly gets labeled a creep over and over again, then it's a clue that it's not the women judging them, it's them, and something in their behavior might need to change. And that's no different than any other trait. If others repeatedly judge one to have a sociably undesirable trait, whatever that might be, a person might want to do some self examination and make some choices. Or decide they want to ignore it and keep on keeping on. But if they do, it's really hard to complain about the reactions of others.

[Demo_Chris]

111. Can't argue with that. nt

[bettyellen]

78. haha, so she is demanding attention and the creep ignores her, LOL. Sure thing.

.

[Zorra]

46. I don't know. Relationships are difficult. I really love this song and video:

So if you're too school for cool
(I mean)
And you're treated like a fool
(You're treated like a fool)
You can choose to let it go
We can always, we can always party on our own

[Chorus]
So raise your (oh, fuck)
So raise your glass if you are wrong
In all the right ways, all my underdogs
We will never be, never be anything but loud
And nitty, gritty, dirty, little freaks

(So raise your glass if you are wrong)
So raise your glass if you are wrong
In all the right ways, all my underdogs
We will never be, never be anything but loud
And nitty, gritty, dirty, little freaks
Won't you come on and come on and
Raise your glass!
Just come on and come on and
Raise your glass!
Won't you come on and come on and
Raise your glass for me!
Just come on and come on and
Raise your glass for me!
For me

[DanTex]

47. This one's also apropos

When you were here before
Couldn't look you in the eye
You're just like an angel
Your skin makes me cry
You float like a feather
In a beautiful world
I wish I was special
You're so fucking special

But I'm a creep
I'm a weirdo
What the hell am I doing here?
I don't belong here

[redqueen]

49. That's a beautiful song.

But I don't associate that song with these discussions.

The song I associate with these discussions is No Doubt's Just a Girl.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/125533046

[DanTex]

50. That's a great song too.

Wouldn't it be great if the people who associate the Radiohead song with these discussions would open up to the No Doubt side of things, while the No Doubt people would try to see the Radiohead side?

[redqueen]

52. The No Doubt people love the Radiohead side.

What they don't like is the people trying to claim that what we're complaining about is the Radiohead side.

We've said fifty bajillion times exactly what the problem is. It's really beyond disingenuousness now.

[kcr]

53. Yes.

It also assumes that women lack empathy. Sure, there may be some people (because it isn't just a female trait) who don't understand or even care that some people are socially awkward. But plenty of women do. Some are socially awkward themselves. And the whole thing ignores how this all started in the first place. It wasn't about awkward males.

[redqueen]

55. THANK YOU!

I read an editorial one time by a shy, socially awkward female nerd - this was after the misogyny at conventions issue blew up - and she was saying something like 'um, guys? while you're all whining about the cheerleaders being mean to you, we've been right here, what the hell?'

Seriously. We have empathy. I, myself, was a shy, socially awkward, ugly outcast. THOSE PEOPLE ARE NOT THE PROBLEM! HOLIDAYING JESUS CHRISTMASSING CHRIST HOW MANY TIMES AND IN HOW MANY WAYS DO WE HAVE TO SAY THAT?!?!?!?!


And when you consider the people who are so often waving the 'I'm just socially awkward and shy' flag, when women try to talk about being sexually harassed?

Yeah. It's used as an excuse and a derailing tactic, and feminists are as sick of that as they are of being accused of having no empathy, being man-haters, and every other stupid tactic that's so overused it's not even funny.

[kcr]

59. Men who've harrassed me, leered at me, gave creeepy vibes, generally haven't been the awkard types

It's usually the opposite. One of the worst offenders in high school was the most popular jock types. He felt entitled to his behavior because of his social status.

[redqueen]

62. Same experience here, save a few.

I've always been partial to nerdy types, and I've discovered that while generally true, that's not always the case.

[DanTex]

54. I'm not sure that's entirely true.

Here's an example, from a highly recced OP:

Now, I need to point out the main problem here… Most men are not as skilled in communication as women. A lot of guys are really bad at it. And most women, especially the ones that like guys, are just sick and tired of dealing with bad communicators, especially when they come off as creepy and potentially threatening. But most of all, most women don't feel as if the intrinsically privileged position of men should be enough to compensate for the lack of male communication skills.

The solution to this problem comes in three mind-bogglingly simple steps:

- Men should talk to women as if they're human beings and not unclaimed sexual objects. Get your talk game straight.

- Next resign yourself to the fact that women, for whatever reason they choose, have the absolute right to reject men who make bad, unwanted, awkward and potentially threatening approaches… And there's nothing that the guy can do about it. Or just because women feel like it, those guys lose, simple as that.

- There's a big diff between looking at a woman who just happens to be out in public, and when some guy is ogling them like they're a plate of steak and fries. Figure out that difference, if you're a gawd-damned adult.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024220427

The insinuation here is that harassment is due to "the lack of male communication skills". That's preposterous and insulting to people who actually have bad communication skills (not to mention the broad-based comment about how "most men" are not as skilled at communication as women -- can you imagine if someone posted that "most women" aren't as skilled at science and math than men?).

Bad communication is not even close to the main problem. Harassment is due to harassment. People who harass women know exactly what they are doing. People with bad communication skills are the Radiohead song. They are not harassers. Totally different. And, yes, there are men who get called creeps for no other reason than they are too skinny and pimply and awkward. That is what the Radiohead song is about.

To suggest to those people that the reason they are being called creeps is that they are sexist and treat women like pieces of meat is insensitive and insulting. And given that many of those people are already hurting from the fact that they don't meet society's standards of "what a man is supposed to be" this is adding insult to injury.

None of this diminishes the fact that women suffer from harrassment and many other things that men don't have to deal with. It doesn't change the fact that a woman should be able to walk down the street without being whistled at, no matter what she is wearing. That's horrible and wrong. And I can see how it is frustrating when people use the Radiohead song to try and pretend that women are just making up the harassment thing just to man-hate.

But I definitely think that both sides have a tendency to dig in rather than try to understand how other people are feeling.

[redqueen]

57. I read that as him trying to be charitable to the kinds who see discussions of sexual harassment

as attacks on socially awkward men.

Trust me, women know how these men are feeling. Know how I know? Because every time we try to talk about harassment, we get to have this same conversation.

We get to explain, a hundred bajillion different times and different ways, what we are saying.

It. Is. Ridiculous.

Fortunately, more and more people are getting it, despite all the dishonest conflation.

[DanTex]

63. I don't see how you could possibly read it that way. Honestly.

This is the first time I've had this conversation, so you'll forgive me if I missed the last hundred bajillion. But this time, I've seen very little empathy from the No Doubters to the Radioheads. I will agree with you that the MRA types trying to pretend that there is no such thing as harassment and that women are asking for it by dressing certain ways and all that stuff is offensive crap.

[redqueen]

64. You'll have to ask Mr. Scorpio to clarify his intent. I can only give you my perspective.

I haven't seen many posts where a guy seems to be genuinely saying that he feels attacked and that he's just socially awkward.

What I have seen after posting that PSA is a lot of bullshit outrage. Stuff which either conflates harassment with offering compliments, tells women they should expect to be harassed if they wear certain clothes, etc.

So I'm not sure where the empathy would have been displayed.

Also, I find it astounding that you have missed this routine. You are very fortunate.

As a feminist, I can assure you it is like clockwork. Every. Single. Time.

[DanTex]

71. There are at least two such examples in this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4222821
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4223847
And there's also a Radiohead song about it.

One reason there probably aren't more posts about it is that men are probably hesitant about coming out and saying "I'm awkward and ugly and women call me a creep not because I'm harassing them but because the thought of them being with some scrawny weirdo like me probably gives them the creeps." That's not the kind of thing that our society encourages men to come out and talk about.

Here's another observation based on personal experience. For the most part, actual sexist creeps do not care about being called creeps. Men who treat women like sex objects don't get offended by stuff. They don't care. In fact, in a way even the MRAs are less sexist than true sexist pigs, because they actually care what women think.

This is why posts like Scorpio's accomplish nothing, except to alienate people who are already not harassing anyone. There are very few men who outwardly treat women like pieces of meat just because the have poor people skills. What can men do to fight harassment and sexism? Next time you're (not you you...) in a locker room or bar or football game or whatever, and some jerk starts making sexist comments, don't laugh, and don't pat the guy on the back, instead tell the guy to stop. That's what non-sexist men can do to help. Stop making it "cool" to disrespect women.

[redqueen]

73. The first post was replied to almost immediately.

The second I didn't see, but thanks.

I disagree with you very strongly, very very strongly, about MRAs. They are actually dangerous.

I didn't see Mr. Scorpio's post the same way you did, but I see what you're saying now, and I hope you posted it there.

I definitely agree with you about what men can do to fight the mindset that leads to women being treated as things. Thanks for getting it, and happy holidays to you and yours.

[DanTex]

90. Thanks for getting that I get it.

Like I said in the OP, I've been in a few locker rooms and such, and some of it is really not pretty. Part of it is probably due to the age -- teens and early 20s -- but still. It makes some of the sexism discussions here on DU seem quaint. I mean here we are talking about how many seconds you can look at a woman's legs when she walks by, meanwhile in locker rooms and bars and frat houses everywhere there are men screaming about all the b---s they are going to be f----g and how if you really want to get laid you have to stop thinking of girls as people, and so on. That Steubenville guy is far from the first person to laugh about a woman being raped. My honest reaction when I watched that video was to be pleasantly surprised that some of the other guys in the room were objecting to what he said.

Anyway, that was a while ago, and I don't run in "high testosterone" circles these days, so I have no idea if those same people are as bad as they used to be. In their defense, not all of the guys on sports teams were misogynists, a lot of them were just going along. I hope they've all grown up and become decent people. But one thing I'm pretty sure of is the theory that "nice introverted guys" are actually secretly just as sexist as the outright jerks is false.

[whatchamacallit]

61. Both those tunes rule

in their own ways, respectively.

[Flatulo]

56. As a perfect example of someone who actually is both creepy and socially awkward, I present

Stuart Pritchard, from the HBO series 'Hello Ladies'.

Pritchard, played brilliantly by Steven Marchand, is a web developer who is convinced that he is god's gift to women. Yet he's demanding, controlling, envious, and entitled. He wants only to date beautiful models, yet he himself is unattractive (he's 6'7" tall and about 120 lbs).

This show succeeds because it hilariously shows exactly how NOT to behave towards women.

In one episode, Stuart rents a limo to cruise around LA impressing women. He and his two socially-awkward-but-not-creepy buddies pick up three women, just plain-looking gals who are visiting LA looking to have a little fun. When Stuart gets an opportunity to drop into a posh nightclub frequented by the beautiful people, he immediately abandons the limo, and the three nice-but-not-gorgeous women they've picked up. But his loutish behavior gets him ejected from the club. He catches up with the limo and jumps back in, where he immediately begins hitting on one of the tourists. She turns to him and says "fuck off". Stuart goes home alone, as usual.

He's a pathetic character, but he brings his misfortune onto himself.

[redqueen]

60. Almost makes me wish I had HBO.

I love Steven Marchand, and that sounds worth a watch.

[WatermelonRat]

58. Wonderfully said

While not cripplingly shy, I'm definitely introverted, and I do sometimes feel a bit indignant regarding rhetoric against "creeps". I'm sure many of the targets of such rhetoric are genuine sexists and pervs, but I've also seen behaviors and tendencies that I am able to recognize as mundane manifestations of social awkwardness being ascribed sinister intent.

[redqueen]

75. I wish you didn't feel targeted by such rhetoric.

We as a society are just beginning to have these conversations and learning as we go. You're exactly right that the people whose actions are being called out are sexists, pervs, male chauvinist pigs, etc. And most definitely not shy, awkward, socially inept men (as a shy, awkward, socially inept woman, I truly sympathize).

It's true that some well-meaning actions can be misinterpreted by women as possibly threatening, however, that can be rectified with understanding and empathy.

This link seems to have some excellent advice for those who have been treated as if they're creeps but who aren't male chauvinist pigs, and therefore would like to work on their demeanor so that they come across as less threatening to women.

Welcome to DU, and happy holidays to you and yours.

[WatermelonRat]

82. Thank you

A common aspect of social awkwardness is assuming people are judging you much more harshly than they actually are, and I think that anxiety may play a part in why I and others like me sometimes feel a bit stung by such talk.

[Egalitarian Thug]

65. Why don't you ask some women IRL?

A significant percentage of the "socially awkward" are really fucking creepy, especially toward women. They're shy and retiring until no one is watching...

[Tom Rinaldo]

77. Even if true, what about the significant percentage that aren't? It's a type of profiling

Decent socially awkward people have enough problems in life without being tarred by a wide brush.

[Egalitarian Thug]

79. Life is hard. Get a fucking helmet.

Women have to deal with shit on an hourly basis that would make most men break down into sobbing puddles in a week.

Every single person on earth makes judgments about other people based on sweeping generalities every day, perhaps you should pick one that isn't so prevalent that you will inevitably find yourself in a position of defending the continued subjugation of over half the population.

[xulamaude]

66. My well informed opinion:

it was some ("socially awkward"?) men who thought some women were talking about them.

Pretty simple.

Thanks for your post.

[bettyellen]

68. some guys cry "Unfair!" that women will allow the socially adept more leeway, and

them less, so they use that excuse as a reason to push the boundaries and disrespect a woman's agency. I think this is where the assumption that looks and money excuse boorish behavior (and they do for people who only want status from partners) so that equals boorish behavior should be blanket acceptable. So, a women's desires or comfort level with them becomes a non-issue. And it goes to the heart of the creeper problem, being very okay with making people uncomfortable.


nerdspaces like Comic Con, etc, where it seems to be a problem, have cause a lot of net chatter on it. These two blog posts are especially good.

"the fundamental truth about creepy behavior: at it’s core it’s an issue of a violation of boundaries. Some people are able to get away with behavior that others are not – being sexually direct, making inappropriate jokes, standing well within an individual’s personal space – because boundaries are elastic. We are more willing to accept certain behavior from some people than others; people we know well are able to “get away” with more as it were. People who are socially well-calibrated are given more opportunities than a random stranger. We allow them greater leeway than others because they demonstrate through their behavior and actions that they understand where the line is – and this is important – how to step back from it when they get too close."

http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2013/04/how-to-reform-creeper/

Acknowledge that you don’t get to define other people’s comfort level with you. Which is to say that you may be trying your hardest to be interesting and engaging and fun to be around — and still come off as a creeper to someone else. Yes, that sucks for you. But you know what? It sucks for them even harder, because you’re creeping them out and making them profoundly unhappy and uncomfortable. It may not seem fair that “creep” is their assessment of you, but: Surprise! It doesn’t matter, and if you try to argue with them (or anyone else) that you’re in fact not being a creep and the problem is with them not you, then you go from “creep” to “complete assbag.” Sometimes people aren’t going to like you or want to be near you. It’s just the way it is."

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/08/09/an-incomplete-guide-to-not-creeping/

[Glassunion]

80. Definition of the word

I don't feel that the word creep holds the same meaning for each person.

Some may view creep as you stated "a sexist asshole", while others may look at the word differently.

For some it may be a word reserved for a detestable person, while to others it may be a word thrown around more lightly to simply describe an undesirable, or uninteresting person.

So, a socially awkward person may be described as a creep by one person, and a nerd or nice guy by another.

I'm sure all of us have been labeled creep at some point in our lives, but for many different reasons.

[NuclearDem]

81. Parts of nerd culture tend to be really sexist.

And when people associate nerd culture with social awkwardness, that's where it comes from.

Not all of nerd culture is sexist, not everyone associated with it is socially awkward, and creeps are not exclusively socially awkward individuals.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

84. Creepiness, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

The beholder may be in need of glasses or a new prescription.

[gollygee]

85. You're right - it's two different issues

Though someone could certainly be both.

A creep is someone who gives attention, and then when it becomes apparent that the attention is unwanted, continues, and often increases it, and even sometimes becomes angry that the attention isn't wanted.

Someone who is socially awkward could do that, but usually they seem to shy away from women and seem less likely to have the sense of entitlement that often creeps women out. It's the sense of entitlement that scares us. If you feel like you are entitled to attention, to a conversation, whatever - it isn't the desire, or the request. It's only if there is a sense of entitlement. If you push it when we make it clear we aren't interested.

[bluestateguy]

101. Thank you for this lucid and intelligent post

Cool people btw often end up not being what they seem.

Guys, give that girl who is kind of plain looking and shy a fair chance. You may be wonderfully surprised.

Ladies, give that guy who is shy, maybe a little nerdy, and under 6 feet tall a fair chance. You may be wonderfully surprised.

[magical thyme]

106. they are 2 entirely different things in my mind.

Creeps are people, male and female, who violate your personal boundaries.

I have been "office stalked" by creeps. I have have had my personal information violated by creeps. I have had my right to have "no thank you" violated by creeps.

Creeps don't accept no for an answer. They are less than rapists, in that it doesn't necessarily involve them touching you (although it can), but they leave you feeling violated and leave your aura feeling "creepy" and "sticky."

They aren't "shy and socially awkward." They are aggressive, persistent, manipulative and annoying. And they always have a ready excuse for their behavior, part of which is that it is your fault for finding it objectionable. "I was just..." prefaces the majority of their defense if they are confronted, while "you're just...." ends it.

[JI7]

108. i also find Socially Awkward types to be mostly respectful to everyone

agree, the 2 are totally different types.

[nomorenomore08]

112. Maybe partly because people tend to be simpleminded, and not big on nuance?

But also because some are intent on blurring the lines between acceptable and unacceptable behavior, for reasons of their own.

[SMC22307]

114. I don't know, and I don't like it.

I've stayed out of recent threads, but will say that if I was on the receiving end of men behaving badly, it was mostly from slickie boys, jocks, fratsters. Sort of like Bradley Cooper's character in "The Wedding Crashers." That type.

Kicking, mostly for your closing sentence...