At the risk of annoying a lot of DU females

[malaise]

I never had a problem with men admiring me - my objection has always been vulgar, sexist comments. I never had a problem with a strange man paying me a compliment.
I suspect culture has a lot to do with it.
I have found that union workers were always the first to protect us on the street when the real perverts or street robbers showed up. When I took public transport to university as a student electricity and telephone workers often said good morning, good afternoon, Some said I looked nice. I said thank you and walked on.

Years ago when I was young I would walk past a supermarket and this rasta guy always had something to say. One day I stopped and told him I'd prefer if he just said good morning or good afternoon. Weeks after a man in a Jaguar offered me a ride and I said no thank you. He insisted that I take the ride. In seconds said Rasta man was there telling him to leave me alone.

I don't want to live in a completely sanitized world. Sorry.

[Puglover]

1. Good luck.

And Happy Holidays Malaise.

And rec!

[malaise]

2. LOL and Thanks

Happy Holidays to you Puglover

[Ohio Joe]

3. Nor is anyone being asked to live in a sanitized world...

That is simply the MRA meme put against those tired of being abused by them. They take their assault and turn it into 'I only looked... Am I not allowed to even look?"

It's bullshit and it's pretty sick to see it being allowed to be spread here on DU.

[Brickbat]

4. Well said.

[redqueen]

12. +1

[alcibiades_mystery]

29. +1...the "completely sanitized world" comment destroys any good will suggested by the post

It is a straw man and utter bullshit.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

36. very well put. exactly right.

I like getting attention too...back in the old days I got plenty.

I liked it when it wasn't threatening/intrusive/ugly.

Most people would feel the same way.

[pnwmom]

49. Did you like attention like that from strange men on the street

when you were 12?

Because that's when it starts for many girls. Some, even younger. Men don't always guess a female's age correctly, so they harass girls as well as women. And it feels creepy to be getting comments from 40 year olds when you're just a kid.

I got older, but it never stopped feeling creepy. Maybe it would have been different if I hadn't felt so vulnerable when it started.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

122. no, not the creepy kind

And let me define "creepy" attention for the sake of the disingenuous MRA types who have been harassing women and dismissing our experience, because eFF what you women think there's no harm in lookingn we're just admiring pretty things, it's human biology--

Creepy attention is inappropriate sexualized attention. Inappropriate in terms of context (i.e. not a night club or other sexually charged meeting place), age inappropriateness, uninvited attention, intrusive, leering, demeaning, demanding, threatening attention.

[pnwmom]

123. +1. n/t

[zeemike]

39. What is this MRA thing, the basis for the next witch hunt?

Last edited Thu Dec 26, 2013, 11:03 AM - Edit history (1)

I guess I don't brows DU enough, or in the right places, because I don't see it.

Do we now have to be careful with our words least we be called a MRA spreader of memes?
Can't we just give it up for the holidays and let it rest?

[lumberjack_jeff]

128. It's a form of tourettes. n/t

[Foolacious]

151. No, it most certainly is not a form of Tourette's Syndrome. n/t

[LWolf]

163. Are you going to be hunting basses next?

I think it's called fishing, and the plural of bass is bass.



Unless, of course, you are hunting for these basses:

[zeemike]

169. OK if fixed it.

I would not want people to think I was talking about a fish or a fiddle.

[NuclearDem]

41. Persecution complex at best, MRA agenda at worst.

Well said.

[sabrina 1]

43. What all this is, is a distraction. The OP is absolutely correct. Most women have no problem with

men paying them a compliment or looking at them appreciately.

What anyone, man or woman, has a problem with is criminal activity, abuse, inappropriate behavior etc.

Most women and men get along fine and know how to talk to each other without being offensive. The impression being given here is that the world is full of perverts and that is a sick way to think. There ARE perverts in the world, and btw, some of them are women. But a vast majority of people are decent and it's a shame to see the world that way.

It's also insulting to women to impy that they can't handle boorish behavior, most can and do when they encounter it. And women can be pretty boorish themselves. And most men seem able to handle that also.

We are NOT wilting flowers who swoon everytime we encounter a problem. And it is downright insulting to imply that constantly.

I agree with the OP 100% as a woman.

[Ohio Joe]

46. I was with the OP right up until the last sentence

Then it becomes the exact sentiment being pushed by the local MRA contingent over the last two days. You should read some of the threads and see how they are justifying their assault with claims of 'oh... I just looked'.

Nobody has expressed any desire for a sanitized world nor even implied such.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

63. yet another time we agree on something!

I think you drew attention to the last one though I don't recall what.

[sabrina 1]

73. Yes, I don't remember it either. Someone should be taking notes. This is getting serious.

[malaise]

94. That simple

Happy Holidays sabrina 1

[lumberjack_jeff]

129. Well said. n/t

[Rex]

5. I think there is a big difference between admiration and sizing you up like a slab of beef.

Intentions, intentions intentions.

Merry Christmas malaise!

[malaise]

6. Sizing up is sexist

Happy Holidays Rex

[panader0]

7. Sexual attraction is completely normal and part of our nature.

When someone is obnoxious, that's different.

[malaise]

9. Precisely

Happy Holidays panader0

[seattledo]

21. But it's not normal...

For it to be the only thing in your life.

[BainsBane]

8. I'm surprised someone needs to explain to you the difference between being admired and harassment.

Do you suppose Indian women dislike being admired? Or is it harassment and making public space unsafe that they object to?

[malaise]

10. I know the difference n/t

[BainsBane]

11. Then why would it even occur to you to write this OP?

Did you imagine anyone was talking about being admired?

[Brickbat]

14. Well said.

[mimi85]

37. I was just going to remark on the music.

to post the same question? I'm a bit confused as to what the OP is trying to get across here. Just me, I suppose. Or is it?

[sabrina 1]

44. Why would anyone need to write an OP about something that most women already know?

Did you think that women don't know when they are being abused and when they are being admired and what is acceptabe and what is not?

I have a lot more faith in the ability of the average woman I guess.

[Bonobo]

53. It was not for women.

It was to shame men for looking at women with SEXUAL THOUGHTS.

We NOW know that:

1) It is okay to look at the eyes.
2) It is okay to look, but not ogle.
3) If you have sexual thoughts when looking, that is not acceptable.

But seriously, rudeness is rude. Staring to the point that the recipient of the stares becomes upset, offended or frightened is rude or even beyond rude.

Having said that, people look at things they are attracted to. And if they are not being observed looking, they will look even longer. Eyesight is most certainly humans' most acute sense and is highly important to them.

So, it was really about shaming men for thinking of women as "objects". That was the message whatever it means to think of someone as an "object".

But, in fact, if you are looking for an example of thinking of people as "objects" and not as human being, you really can find no better example than here on DU where a huge swath of people are reduced to mere loathsome caricatures, their humanity denied with offensive labels.

[sabrina 1]

72. Well everyone knows 'rude' when they see it. Strong women know how to deal with that, in men AND

in women. I am sick to death of women being painted as victims. I have certainly, as a woman, experienced rudeness, not just from men btw. I know how to handle it as most strong women do. We don't need knights in shining armor coming to our defense, really to deal with boors. It is FUN to deal with such individuals for most women. I could give examples of when my women friends and I had fun with situations like that as most women could.

We all manage to get through life quite happiily, sorting out those who are abusive from those who are not.

No one can make a woman feel like an object unless she wants to feel that way and some women actually DO. That is THEIR choice.

I don't get all this 'women need protection' stuff and never did. There ARE times when everyone needs protection, but that usually involves actual criminal activiity. But if someone is attempting to objective a woman I feel sorry for THEM, it is a futile exercise and they will quickly learn that from women who know who they are and who cannot be objectified no matter how hard someone tries.

[Bonobo]

74. To me, THAT is what a strong woman sounds like.

My daughter is a PARTICULARLY strong woman.

She would literally laugh at what is being pushed here as the "strong woman's voice".

I really mean it. She would have ZERO time for that kind of shit and that is why I recognize your voice and its genuine-ness. You sound just like my daughter. Made of steel.

[sabrina 1]

77. Thank you. She sounds wonderful. Certainly not a victim as women are painted here.

And I'm not into shaming, that is a right wing thing. I am into teaching and if someone is resistant to learning, ignoring works.

Most of my women friends would laugh their heads off at what is going on here, seriously.

[Bonobo]

79. No, she is someone who bends the earth around her.

Not a victim. She is a power to be reckoned with. She amazes and inspires me beyond words.

[malaise]

96. I agree

Happy Holidays Bonobo

[Bonobo]

97. Thank you, Malaise.

Happy holidays to you too!

[KitSileya]

82. Wow. Talk about victim blaming.

Not all have the same mental fortitude, just like not everyone is as physically strong. Are you really saying that women should just shrug their shoulders at leering and sexist comments and worse? To use an analogy, 'I am sick to death of men being painted as victims. I have certainly, as a man, experienced physical violence, not just from men btw. I know how to handle it as most strong men do. We don't need knights in shining armor coming to our defense, really to deal with violence. It is FUN to deal with such individuals for most men. I could give examples of when my men friends and I had fun with situations like that as most men could."

You know what? I would much rather work to create a society where it is unacceptable for people to behave so boorishly, so that women don't have to come up with come-backs to leering men from the age of 11. When a guy stops in front of you at 12 and asks you to show him your p*ssy, it's not something that will ever be followed up legally, but in many girls, incidents such as these, especially if they aren't the only one, does affect them, and does something to their feelings. Especially if, when the story is recounted to adults, their reaction is to tell the girl that her feelings of ick is something she is doing to herself, because, really, "no one can make her feel like an object unless she wants to feel that way."

[sabrina 1]

84. If you want to create a society where it is unacceptabe for peope to behave so boorishly, then STOP

TEACHING WOMEN to think they need to be victims! They don't. WOMEN we are talking about NOT children, but your leap from a social issue into pedophelia demonstrates that you DO view women as children. WE ARE NOT CHILDREN we are NOT HELPLESS.

And shame on you for equating all men to pedophiles. THIS is what I''m talking about.

ANY MAN WHO IS LEERING AT CHILDREN IS A CRIMINAL!! This has NO relationship to this topic, it is an ENTIRELY different subject.

Just STOP. We have now gone from WOMEN being looked at or complimented, to women as CHILDREN who are victims of pedophilia???

What YOU just injected into this discussion is a POLICE MATTER. Not a social problem.

And this is why women are not taken seriously when they actually are real victims.

Enough already, this has gone beyond reality.

[KitSileya]

91. Women at 35 have 25 years of this behind them

It informs how they react today. Perhaps many of them have experienced assault etc that makes it difficult to just shrug off leers etc. ever been triggered? It makes it very difficult to "be strong" and to "have fun" with it. It isn't something that starts at 18. In fact, according to RAINN, girls 16-19 are 4 times more likely to be victims of rape, attempted rape, or sexual assault than the general population. 15% of rape victims are under 12. Most women, even those who were not assaulted, know well the risks, and many don't have your blessed ability to have fun with it. It makes being "checked out" have an extra dimension - are you pretty enough to pursue, perhaps aggressively?

[sabrina 1]

131. Well, that's the poing, as you say, 'most women know the risks'. That's exaclty my point. And no,

it isn't a 'blessed ability to have fun with abuse'. Who said that? You are now doing what someone else here did, talking about criminal behavior against CHILDREN which as CRIME and mixing it up with ordinary men and women interacting with each other they have for milleniums where women most definitely know the difference between abuse and normal behavior.

Don't try to put words in my mouth. In no way did I say it was 'fun to be abused'. I SAID, which was quite clear so I don't understand your attempt to twist it, that 'WOMEN KNOW THE DIFFERENCE and are not perennial victims as is being suggested.

And then you segued into pedophilia mixing it all up with normal behavior and tying it all together and THAT is why people just roll their eyes. Crime and criminal behavior should be discussed in THAT context and not used to bolster the idea that ALL women are helpless victims of ALL men who are out to 'objectify and/or harm them'.

Makes me wonder how so many billions of people managed to ever get together and have families and remain loving couples for their entire lives.

A vast, vast majority of men are NOT rapists, pedophiles or sexual abusers. It's simply amazing that I feel the need to even say that.

[KitSileya]

132. I said fun with *it*

The 'it' referring to your statement that for many women it is fun to deal with boors. Most women I know don't find that fun. We've had to deal with them since puberty, and we are thoroughly sick of it. Many of us have the extra dimension of having been assaulted which layers those experiences, making them even less fun. As the statistics I quoted show, many of us have been assaulted as children and teenagers. What do you think that does to our view of leering or boorish men as adults? Why should we have to keep rebuffing guys when we are going through our daily lives? We know the difference, as you say, but why should we have to keep experiencing the 'piece-of-meat' looks? Why is it not acceptable to advocate for a society where we no longer teach our boys they have to be the 'hunters', that it is their job to keep approaching women? We have started teaching our girls that they don't have to be victims, we are empowering them, but apparently so many of the men, both in the world and at DU, think it is beyond the pale to ask men to modify their behavior.

[raccoon]

111. +100. nt

[HappyMe]

112. Very well said.

[Major Nikon]

113. I don't think those who keep bringing this up are trying to paint women as victims

They are trying to paint many (if not most) men as predators. I have to deal with this behavior on the HR side of things at work and I can definitively say that it's not fun for anyone involved to deal with it. However, this is more on the side of extreme (although generally short of criminal) behavior and not really what you are talking about. Although I'm dealing with it fairly often at work, it's actually pretty rare behavior. The vast majority of men will stop once they know the behavior is unwanted. Very few have to be told to stop but generally will and fewer still won't stop even then. My experience matches yours in that a few women very much encourage all sorts of attention and they seem to have no problem dealing with it when it gets to the point of being unwanted.

[sabrina 1]

130. Thank you, that is exactly the problem with all of this, 'trying to paint all men as predators'

It is downright insulting, not just to men in general, but the women who know and love them. And they don't get why people are not agreeing with them.

A few years ago I was invited to an event for the troops by a friend who wanted to provide them with a day of just having fun. One of the officers came over and asked me 'would it be okay if I paid you complement'. I was surprised that he felt he needed to ask me to that and said 'of course', but 'why did you ask'? He explained that they were told never to compliment a woman as it could be taken as sexual harassment. I'm sure, and I know for a fact, that REAL sexual harassment and abuse against women in the military does occur on far too regalar a basis. But for him to feel that the nice compliment he anted to pay a woman could be misinterpreted as abuse?

That made no sense at all. Especially since the REAL abuse of women not only gets a pass in the military but women who have been raped are often the ones who are punished. So it struck me as huge hypocrisy on the part of the military to ignore the real abuse while warning men about something so normal.

[bettyellen]

42. and do you think others do not or something? trying to understand your point here.

seems like you have had very few negative experiences- i.e. one rasta saying something unpleasant.
Lucky you! But that could easily happen 2-3 an hour strolling in Manhattan.

[hughee99]

15. Since the OP apparently doesn't know the difference (as you've suggested)

I think we'd all benefit from you providing a clear and comprehensive explanation.

[Harmony Blue]

23. Each person can determine their comfort level on their own

they don't need a hall monitor to help out.

[malaise]

24. Ding ding we have a winner

Happy Holidays Harmony Blue

[Harmony Blue]

28. Thank you!

Happy Holidays to you too!

[sabrina 1]

45. Exactly ... n/t

[a la izquierda]

118. Spot on.

I'm tired of the assumption that someone else knows best about how I should feel or not. I have a strong personality and what would bother some women doesn't phase me in the slightest.

[malaise]

101. I don't know the answer to your question

but from my perspective there is nothing unsafe about a harmless comment.

Happy Holidays

[uppityperson]

134. Of course a harmless comment is harmless. The issue iswhen does that comment become

harmful and when is it defended with "I was only looking"?

[Brickbat]

13. Do you often comment on other people's appearance?

[malaise]

16. No but I know folks who do

and the comments by the vast majority are harmless.

[nolabels]

164. Not in actuality

Some people are offended with non-genuine and unneeded comments about ones personable appearance. Often i find some of it as a way for the commenter trying to get a leg up in the conversation. With enough practice you will be able to perceive this as a weakness by the one who makes the comment and in the process be able to understand the real motives.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Partly it is culture as you said

I have had no issue either.

Oh and Happy Holidays

[malaise]

18. Happy Holidays sis

[etherealtruth]

19. I don't mind when told I have beautiful eyes (that is simply complimentary)

I do mind when told that I am a MILF ... there is a difference. One is complimentary the other is exceptionally skeevy

[hughee99]

20. I've seen several posters say that they find a compliment on something they have no control over

to be offensive (or at least unwanted). Eyes, for example. I don't think the line between complimentary and skeevy is set in stone, it, instead, seems to vary some from one person to another.

[grahamhgreen]

22. Thanks! Polite people rock!

[hootinholler]

25. I have to wish you Merry Merriment! n/t

[malaise]

30. Back at you hootinholler

[Jester Messiah]

26. Pfft. Good luck getting through to that crowd.

"If you can't refute it, report it" seems to be the order of the day. This board is getting to be a fucking joke. This Jester's not laughing.

[malaise]

107. I love DU - it's not a joke to me

Happy Holidays Jester Messiah

[Jester Messiah]

109. And to you as well. [nt]

[Eleanors38]

27. There is power in beauty, and from my observations, it

Is serious business and something of a burden for some women. I find both very appealing. I hope you have a wonderful Christmas, malaise.

[malaise]

31. Same to you Eleanors38

[malaise]

95. Happy Holidays delrem

[pipi_k]

33. Some will definitely

Be annoyed, but not me

Like yourself, it never bothered me when men gave me the eye. Or did a double take

Not when I was a grown adult, anyway. I secretly enjoyed it, in fact


What did bother me very much was when I was just a young girl...maybe starting at the age of ten or so...and men would make comments that made me feel uncomfortable

Or look at me in a certain way. Even a child knows what's icky


So, at least that sort of attention when I became an adult was appropriately placed...

[malaise]

102. In my culture if no one paid you a compliment

You'd check the mirror to see what was out of place - I sure enjoy harmless compliments.

Happy Holidays

[pipi_k]

120. A good point, actually...

cultural differences.

Like one time I was waiting in my car for my sister to conduct some business at a particular place. I was in my late 20s to early 30s, had kids, etc.

A bunch of black guys was hanging around out front of the building and one of them comes over to my open window and says, "Mmmm, mmm...you look good enough to belong to a black man!" Then he walks away. Of course, I'm surprised to be addressed in that manner, and not knowing how to respond, I said nothing.

Another time I was at a racetrack waiting for my companions to place their bets. A couple of Hispanic guys come by and one of them smiles at me and says, "Oooh, nice lips!"

And so forth. My legs are very long, so they would gather the most compliments from the guys.

As long as they never tried taking it further than that, I never saw it as harassment, although I'm sure some other women probably would.

Now I'm 61 and a bit overweight. Now if some guy gives me a second look, I always assume it's because I remind him of his mom or even his grandma.

[malaise]

137. You don't have that problem in Jamaica

There comes that moment when they suddenly call you Mummy. It is seriously shocking the first time - you are now considered old and to be treated with a different kind of respect.
Over the decades some of the comments have been hilarious and I have to think hard to remember an offensive one.

[LadyHawkAZ]

34. +1

My "trash thread" function's getting a good workout.

[malaise]

103. I never trash threads

and I have no one on ignore - but I have my own views on a number of issues and I like having men around.

Happy Holidays LadyHawkAZ

[Jamaal510]

35. It somewhat makes

me uneasy about complimenting women who I like now, because of all the horror stories I've heard of men being viewed as sex-driven or easy if they compliment random strangers about how they look. Many times, it is difficult IMO trying to determine who truly is open to conversation, and who is guarded.

[liberalmuse]

38. It's okay to look...

but don't lasciviously leer, drool, do the Hannibal Lecter thing with the tongue or catcall. Is that too much to ask? I know a lot of guys who are respectful, but when we get to talking, they do mention how they fantasize a lot about sex. So do I, for that matter. I don't have an issue with that at all. Hell, we all have human desires. The problem is when a person starts outwardly thrusting that fantasy upon unwilling and unknowing participants and then blaming THEM when they decline to reciprocate, or tell them to stop.

[malaise]

105. I agree

Happy Holidays

[seabeyond]

40. this was about a PSA in india. it is a little more than what you are suggesting. i am glad you have

had someone around to help you when you needed help

[Luminous Animal]

47. It bugged me. It bugged me that strangers felt welcome

to take up so much of my time by interrupting my thoughts. Hey, if we make eye contact then likely I am open to communication. If we don't, then leave me alone because I am probably thinking about how I am going to organize my day, or plotting out the garden, or mentally writing that letter to my mom and trying to figure out how to make it sound not too angry.

I deserved to walk down the street without interruptions to my private musings. And if I were accompanied by a man, I'd be left alone. There would be no overtures... hmm.

[Logical]

48. Wow, you sound friendly! nt

[Luminous Animal]

50. I am. You know.. I watch my 23 year old daughter go through what I went through...

She walks down the street and at least once and up to 3 times per block says some guy says "hello" to her.

Not one woman does the same to her.

That means that within at least every 2-5 minutes, her own private thoughts are interrupted by a man who is trying to get her attention.

Every 2-5 minutes she can't be at peace in her own head.

Not one woman does the same to her.

My husband walks the same streets AND NOT ONE PERSON, MAN OR WOMAN, (unless a panhandler) seeks to draw his attention away from his own personal space.

Not one man or woman.

My daughter is a songwriter and often works out the lyrics and melodies wherever she happens to be. How can a person maintain a continuity of creativity when constantly being interrupted by random men on the street?

[Logical]

51. Ok, I will stop saying hello to anyone! FFS, there are a lot of damn rules! nt

[Matariki]

54. Do you say hello to all the middle aged women you pass?

Or just the women who you find cute? Because if not, you're just disingenuous.

[Logical]

55. I say hello to almost everyone, but fuck, they could be thinking and I.....

Have been interrupting them!

[Matariki]

65. Okay, that's great. How do you react if someone ignores your hello?

[Logical]

66. Like a normal human! Ignore it! Nt

[Matariki]

69. Well there you go. You're civilized.

And how would you think someone might feel if instead of the person just moving on they instead followed and/or shouted all sorts of names, threats, and insults? Might make the person less than 'friendly' if that happened on a near constant basis, no?

Because this is what we've been talking about. Not friendly hellos. Not appreciative glances.

[Inkfreak]

116. What's worse...

the default perception of you (as in men) is that you couldn't possibly be acting in a friendly manner. You are obviously a pervert. Thinking pervert thoughts.

Lectures on staring at people. Generalizations flying like arrows and repetitive arguments. It's a buffet of milestone threads for a junkie like me. Tho I may have to go on a diet of weird news & lounge threads for awhile. Starting to get a bad taste in my mouth.

[Logical]

119. Good idea! nt

[Luminous Animal]

58. It is common courtesy. If you make eye contact with a man or a woman that you don't know,

you say howdy. If there is no eye contact, leave the person alone with their own thoughts.

[Logical]

62. No, I will continue to say hello like I have for 40 years....

With not one complaint of sexism or complaint about interrupting their thoughts.

And amazingly enough, I have never had someone interrupt my thoughts where it pissed me off.

[BellaKos]

59. I think I would be gawking at your daughter, too ..

if I saw somebody singing while she or HE was walking down the street. It's just too unusual a sight to ignore.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

60. maybe if she were smart, she'd put ear buds in her ears.

it is quite the deterrent to conversation. Or she could ride her bike, take a drive in the car, or stay inside when working out important song melodies. But then again...maybe she's not as bothered by fellow humans greeting her as you seem to be.

[bettyellen]

78. another suggestion to stay inside, LOL. WOW.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

86. one option out of about 4 or 5. your selective hearing

is what makes this topic ridiculous.

[bettyellen]

87. no, presenting staying inside as a good "option" is fucking ridiculous.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

88. for concentrating on her songwriting? uh, no it's not.

context, grasshopper. context.

[bettyellen]

89. for any reason. she wants out, she should be able to go out

[Pretzel_Warrior]

90. ok. you win.

the world should bow in obeisance to "Young Precious" as she toils endlessly in a seemingly unfruitful attempt to find a word that rhymes with matriculate and yet is still in keeping with the meter of her song.

And above all, a young male in the neighborhood should not in any way interact with "Young Precious" as she scampers past him.

[bettyellen]

92. how dare she not converse with every young man who wants her attention instead of doing what SHE

wants. OMG. This reminds me of the job where people thought I was a princess because my employers agreed not to throw things at me, or call me certain names. It's called having boundaries, and it is a very good thing.
I certainly never owed any time to strangers, or expected it from people who I do not know.

[Luminous Animal]

83. My daughter is 6'2' and model beautiful. She is harassed constantly and she hates

the constant distraction.

Hates it.

Leave her the fuck alone.

[bettyellen]

93. and here people will tell you she is a stuck up princess for not stopping to talk to all the dudes..

yet if she did, she'd be seen as too easy. Ah, the gaze is the stupidest thing ever.

[Vashta Nerada]

61. They say "hello"to her and interrupt her thoughts?

Those creepy assholes! How dare they!

[Luminous Animal]

68. I would say inconsiderate. Not creepy. And I do believe that people, both men and women,

should have the freedom to walk down the street and have their internal dialogue uninterrupted.

One of my daughters most valuable and best friend is a 22 year old gay man... he has a similar complaint when he walks in the Castro district of San Francisco.

He wants to walk his "hood" without being constantly being distracted by men who are trying to get his attention.

Neither he or my daughter think they are being creepy. They think that they are being rude.

They are, collectively, like your own little kid that, while you are on the phone, won't stop talking.

[Vashta Nerada]

70. Yeah, god forbid people from being nice and exchanging pleasantries.

I wish assholes in stores would quit being nice to me and acknowledging my existence with a "hello". I wish they would leave me alone and let me be to my internal thoughts.

Inconsiderate assholess.

[Luminous Animal]

76. Very bizarre response. I walk into a store expecting a hello.

Every single human being does. That is a centuries old relationship between shop keeper and customer. And the customer is under no obligation to return that 'hello'. I would hope they would but I wouldn't expect it.

But when you let the shop keeper know that you don't want any assistance, the wise shopkeeper leaves you alone.

Now, on the other hand... a stranger on the street has zero expectations to grab your attention and should respect that autonomous relationship.

[FrodosPet]

141. So we have to quit saying hello to strangers on the street?

I'm not trying to jump in anyone's world - I am just trying to acknowledge their existance, and show a little old school inter-personal respect.

But now, the simple act of nodding my head and saying "Hello!" is a major affront? I'm not staring, leering, making inappropriate comments. I don't say hello to some, and not to others, unless they have that scary staring daggers look.

This world is really a sad sick place if I cannot even share the simplest hello while walking down the street.

[Matariki]

52. Are you serious?

Hey baby, why don't you smile, smile for me, what's the matter with you, are you frigid, you fucking bitch.

That was a constant for decades of my life. For many women's lives. Friendly? Meh.

I want to get from point A to point B without having to entertain a street full of self centered assholes. I'm friendly to people who don't treat me like I was put on earth to gratify them and their pathetic egos.

Damn these threads are pissing me off.

[Logical]

57. LOL, someone saying hello is now a sexual advance? This place is now insane! Nt

[Matariki]

67. I wish you would try a little bit to understand

No where did I say that saying 'hello' is a sexual advance and I have never minded someone genuinely saying hello to me. What I mind, and mind terribly, was when someone (and it happened very, very often) uses any response from me, any eye contact, as a 'way in', a way to demand and try to get more from me, or follows it with very crude comments.

What women here, in these threads, have been trying to relate is that experience. You would be a whole lot less 'friendly' if you spent your life running gauntlets like that.

It amazes, but doesn't surprise me, at how difficult it is to get this information through to some men here.

[Luminous Animal]

71. And it they say 'hello' to you and you don't say 'hello' back... you are unfriendly.

[Matariki]

75. Being called 'unfriendly' would be the least of it

I've been followed for blocks and called a bitch for not saying hello back.

In fact, I'm fairly certain that my house was broken into and attempted rape because I ignored a couple of guys on a day I was in a particularly bad mood over some financial difficulties.

These threads are interesting because I'm seeing how much anger I still harbor over those decades of dealing with a constant gauntlet of assholes, when I just wanted to go about my life.

[Luminous Animal]

80. XO, I so understand. Similar has happened to me and my daughter...

Just get the fuck out of my head. I just want to walk down the street.

[bettyellen]

81. OMG yes, I have been there, and it sucks. I am very friendly with people who have reasons or

genuine need to interact with me. But many people who try are just doing it for their own amusement or desires completely irrespective of mine. Can't count the amount of times I have been interrupted by strangers looking for a little attention who don't seem to respect the fact that I am in the middle of something else. They are the rude ones.

[alarimer]

150. I am definitely unfriendly

I don't give a rat's ass what some stranger thinks of me. I want to be left alone.

[malaise]

99. ROFL

Happy Holidays

[gollygee]

117. The problem isn't saying the hello

The problem is saying hello and feeling entitled for it to lead to a conversation and getting angry when it doesn't. If you say hello and don't flip out and call a woman a bitch if she doesn't respond, it's no problem. But if you start following her around and harassing her if she doesn't want to talk, THAT is the problem.

[malaise]

98. My private musings are never on the streets

I pay attention.
I've plotted out a few garden beds while walking around my favorite dam during my exercise routine but never while walking on the street. I was never trying to figure out how to word a letter to my mom so that I didn't sound angry. Both mom and I had the right to be angry but it was rare.

With all that's going on in her head, I'd worry more about bumping into someone if I were that lady.

Happy Holidays

[pipi_k]

121. This...I can't remember

And if I were accompanied by a man, I'd be left alone. There would be no overtures... hmm.

I can't remember if I was ever approached by a man when I was with a man, but let me tell you, a lot of women don't give a shit about whether a man is with another woman.

Back in the 90s I lived with a very attractive guy who attracted a lot of female attention.

Some of them would only look, but a disturbing number of them would actually make comments even though I was with him.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

56. Male colleague:"Sue, that's a nice blouse you're wearing."

Sue: "Get away from me, you rapist!". Pulls out mace.

Male colleague: "Ow, my eyes!!".

Sue: "Next time you want to commit adultery with your eyes, maybe you'll think twice!"

[geek tragedy]

85. As a rule, men should avoid commenting on the clothes their women colleagues are wearing.

Even if meant innocently, won't necessarily be interpreted that way.

There are things worth risking your job over. Talking up the ladies about their clothes ain't one.

[grahamhgreen]

145. Never been a problem in my interactions with healthy humans:)

[geek tragedy]

153. I've seen men do it twice at the office

and it was pretty damn creepy. "I like the pattern on your stockings." The women being complemented were grossed out.

But, i guess you'd just dismiss that as unhealthy on their part.

[Gormy Cuss]

127. Sue: "Stop staring at my breasts" is the subtext there.

Male colleague: "Oh! I'm not doing that. I'm just complimenting you on your fine sense of fashion."
Sue: "Then why were you looking at my cleavage rather than my face when you said it?"
Male colleague: " Geez. Lighten up."

[uppityperson]

135. Try this..."Hi Sue, how are you today?"

[BellaKos]

64. I agee with you, Malaise.

In fact, I never noticed men watching me until after I married. At which point, my husband would mention it.
Still don't notice. Still don't care.

[malaise]

100. LOL

Happy Holidays BellaKos

[boston bean]

104. you obviously are comparing apples to oranges

and it doesn't work that way.

Women are speaking of a specific behavior and how it makes them feel. Which you seem to at least realize does happen.

[redqueen]

125. It's intentional.

But, note that I couldn't help being curious and checking out who rec'd bennyboy's thread talking about jacking off to (ugly) women like Hillary Clinton, Margaret Thatcher, and Julia Roberts.

It's ... enlightening.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

143. there are apples and then there are rotten apples.

she is obviously speaking about good apples which is fine because, as we know --

[Scuba]

106. You're the bravest person I know. Happy holidays malaise!!!

[malaise]

108. There are lots of brave persons here at DU

I'm off to the market without hubby - looking for some compliments

Happy Holidays Scuba

[B Calm]

110. Rasta man video!

#t=80

[CTyankee]

114. Malaise, allow me to send Holiday Greetings to my proud sisters in arms, who have

so strongly stepped up and refused to be silent about what you call "vulgar, sexist comments." Even in the face of derision from some anti-feminists, they have been resolute! Don't you agree?

All through our history in this country, when women have made a stand and protested and made a huge ruckus, they get results. Suffragists were spat upon as they marched with their banners. Did they run and hide? NO! They kept on annoying the hell out of the bastards standing in their way. Sure, they were belittled and looked down on. That happens when oppressed people stand up for themselves and FIGHT BACK! They kept working with the strong Feminist men who loved them and they changed HISTORY!

And so I am here today to SALUTE the Feminists on this board and elsewhere, men as well as women, as we stand shoulder to shoulder for justice, freedom and equality. When you celebrate our strength, our courage and our dedication, I applaud with you.

SISTERS OF THE WORLD, UNITE! You have nothing to lose but their whines!

[malaise]

136. Great post sis

Happy Holidays to you CTyankee

[onpatrol98]

115. LOL...You are brave!

I don't mind the good attention. I can't stand the bad. It is sad that sometimes good people, with good intentions now second guess opening a door for someone, saying hello or paying an appropriate compliment.

It's the bad actors that have changed our society. Men and women with no humanity, who make life miserable for the rest of us. At 42, I know the difference. But, I am also glad I have no daughters. It's a hard life for little girls. We objectify them from birth. I would have to sew my own clothes. The crap they sell in department stores, in my opinion, continues with the objectification process. Then the television, the music...it all creates a culture of do what you want want, say what you want to who you want. It's toxic and deadly and will only get worse. Because most of it is considered harmless and I think it helps drive bad behaviors.

As parents, we need to be proactive. For my sons, I have some general guidance. There are some things that are easy to teach. Keep your hands to yourself, you were supposed to learn that in Kindergarten. Keep your comments about appearance to yourself until you have a relationship close enough for the receiver to appreciate it...ie, for the woman who decides you're a keeper.

When in doubt...don't.

My oldest sons are men now. But, life has changed a lot since they were my youngest sons age. And not for the better.

And Merry Christmas...if you don't mind. Have a wonderful holiday season! When someone says it to me, it brightens my day. But these days....sheesh. It could wreck someones day.

[malaise]

138. Very nice post

Merry Christmas to you and yours onpatrol98

[redqueen]

124. Nobody is complaining about men saying good morning or that a woman looks nice.

Did you even watch the PSA?

This kind of disingenuous conflation is ... really something.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

142. crickets

chirping ...

Merry Christmas, redqueen !!

[redqueen]

160. Yeah, I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

Merry Christmas to you too.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

161. and honestly --

I think Rasta is the new Asian Woodcarver ... thread/cracking me up.

[HipChick]

126. Rasta's have always been the most respectful to me..

now these Corporate America Republican Tea Bag wannabe types are a whole other matter...

In fact, one called me Girl the other day, and failed to see how he was being offensive...

another told me, that I was taking the job that a man should be doing, and the best place for women like me was in the bedroom..

[malaise]

139. I agree re Rastas in general

My response to the RW types has always been to the point - "...but I'm way brighter than you". They move on to find a victim. Mom always said that I was quick with sharp answers.

[Jamastiene]

133. The way you just explained it, I actually agree.

There is a difference between a harmless compliment and rudeness/creepiness.

To each their own, though. I can see why others feel the way they do too. That's their own thing. To each their own. I feel much like you do about it though.

[malaise]

140. To each her own - fine as long as I can have a

different perspective. I'd hate to live on a planet without men. Just saying!!

Happy Holidays Jamastiene

[Kurovski]

144. Happy worker's rest day, Comrade!

And may I venture to say, you look exceptionally capable in your gray work overalls today?

[malaise]

146. LOl with my gray hair to match

Happy Holidays my beloved Comrade leader Kurovski

[Kurovski]

152. Good, Good. Clairol is a decadent western conceit.

Time spent on hair is better spent repairing dams and boiling turnips.

[redqueen]

159. Is dying one's hair less conceited if done in India or Japan?

You do know both men and women use hair dye in lots of other countries, right?

[Kurovski]

170. Narrow, nonsensical and irrelevant.

that's what I know about that particular interjection.

[malaise]

162. Bwaaaaaaaaaaaah hahahahha

Actually I think about dying my hair more in terms of wasting money.

[lonestarnot]

147. Nuts, whoes, criminals, gypsies, vagabonds, pervs sorry yes, they are part of life, and studies in

life and environment. A sanitized world is for cowards and I do not prefer one either.

[malaise]

148. Ha

Happy Holidays linestarnot

[lonestarnot]

149. To you as well Malaise.

[Blue_In_AK]

154. I agree, Malaise.

[malaise]

157. Happy Holidays Blue_in_AK

[Blue_In_AK]

158. Happy holidays to you, too, my friend.

[hfojvt]

155. there was a local story

about a woman who was jogging who was attacked by some guy. Some work was being done on a school across the street. The construction workers stopped the attack and made sure the guy could not get away until police arrived.

I have to laugh though. Although I remember the Rasta man story from another post in the past, I was thinking that you were a dude. Probably because of the Marley icon.

Selective memory and all that.

[malaise]

156. LOL at thinking I was a dude

and yes I have posted that Rasta man story before.

Happy Holidays hfojvt

[NaturalHigh]

165. I think your is probably the majority opinion.

You wouldn't know it from a small but vocal group here, but I think most women would agree with you.

[boston bean]

166. Of course most women like being treated like a human being... who wouldn't?

What women don't like is creepy dudes thinking they got the god given right to harass women and leer at them in a sexual manner.

That was what the discussion was about. It was not about women being treated respectfully and like humans.

[NaturalHigh]

167. I don't know what discussion you're referring to.

I do know that the OP shows more common sense than a lot of posts that I've seen on this subject.

[boston bean]

168. If you don't disagree with what I wrote, then we are on the same page.

And is what was being said and what prompted this OP. You've seen some postings and I'm not really sure how different they are, except this one by malaise implies something else was being said.

[malaise]

171. Happy Holidays NaturalHigh

[NaturalHigh]

172. Thanks Malaise.

Same to you.