General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsTo All You Gay Defenders - Leviticus is Very Clear
Lev 19:19
Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.
Lev 19:23
And when ye shall come into the land, and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised: three years shall it be as uncircumcised unto you: it shall not be eaten of.
Very clear indeed
Oh, here is some other stuff it read:
Lev 19:17
Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
Lev 19:18
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)The bible is worthless as the foundation or an argument. There's no need to stoop to the level of those that choose to do that.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)then it seems entirely consistent to use it to refute them.
Maybe they'll eventually move on to arguing using reason.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)But I enjoy using their own book to confound them.
Fundies rely on the fact that most people haven't read the Bible (or whatever holy book they use) in depth.
They then claim to speak on behalf of God (which is blasphemy according to most religions). It's a simple bullying tactic.
But like you, I think it's necessary to refute them using their own material, to show that they don't have all the answers.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)I told them that they were wasting their time, that I couldn't be saved.
They gave me their usual spiel about accepting Jesus and it would be.
I said"Wrong" and asked for their bible. I read them Deuteronomy 23:2-a bastard shall not enter the kingdom of heaven, not even unto the tenth generation.
I said my parents were not married when I was born so there it was. I handed them back their bible and walked off. They were still standing there when I turned around and looked about a half block away.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)It is an exercise in futility.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,337 posts)As a gay man, I wouldn't mind a little heat off us. But what if they start picking on farmers and cattle ranchers. Will somebody think of the farmers and ranchers????
safeinOhio
(32,715 posts)just stir the pot.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)lame54
(35,321 posts)seattledo
(295 posts)If they don't understand circular logic to understand why they're wrong to do so, why can't we just do the same back?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)mucifer
(23,565 posts)A Pagan asked Rabbi Hillel to teach him the entire Torah while standing on one foot. Rabbi Hillel replied, "What is hateful to yourself, do not do to your fellow man. That is the whole Torah; the rest is just commentary. Go and study it." http://www.jewfaq.org/brother.htm
It's the basic do unto others.
That story had a big affect on me as a kid. I always really liked it. Still do.
Gothmog
(145,554 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Leviticus 25:44-47
44 As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. 46 You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness.
Inherit them as property. Got that? Property.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)Or taking a knock on Leviticus?
Bryant
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)behaviors those folks don't follow, would not follow and many which if followed would lead to arrest and imprisonment in today's world. Big fun for them to say 'it says gays are bad' while they overlook the other parts, that codify heterosexual behavior, diet, clothing, tonsorial style, bathing habits, farming regulations, you name it. Just like all the Church Ladies who dress up in finery and sneer at gay people ignore the parts that say women must never wear finery, must never speak in public, never question any man but her husband and him only at home. The redacting of all materials that apply to them and the repetition of materials that apply to others is hugely dishonest, and those folks who claim they 'live by the Bible' are full of mendacity and bullshit to an extreme degree, unless they are refusing blended fabrics, selling their daughters to the highest bidder, stoning to death smart mouthed kids, keeping strictly kosher diets, etc.
The NT says 'sell all you own and give it to the poor if you want to follow me'. Do any of them do so? Why no they don't. Instead they ignore that and skip to 'gays are bad' later in the book, wedged in next to' women must be silent'.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)if a Liberal Christian says "I believe in treating as I would want to be treated, with dignity and respect," are they equally hypocritical?
Bryant
OffWithTheirHeads
(10,337 posts)They got as far as Leviticus and gave up. They never made it to Matthew.
madokie
(51,076 posts)I gave up religion 40 some odd years ago.
I say to each his/her own but for me it wasn't meant to be.
I'll die a heathen
treestar
(82,383 posts)should be taken literally today, even by the most devout Christian. It's just an excuse for their bigotry when they do it.
ananda
(28,876 posts).. written at different times, in different places, by different people.
It's just a work of fiction, with each part reflecting the views and biases
of the writer, just like ANY work of fiction, historical or not.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Look what they get up to without 'em.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,870 posts)Using a 4,000 year old moral code is a little out dated.
I think the writing in the Bible is beautiful and ancient. But you can't use it as a moral code for our times.
LiberalElite
(14,691 posts)we can eat circumcised fruit?
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)LiberalElite
(14,691 posts)what are those?
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)Just don't ask my google search term to find it.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)"Thou shalt keep my statutes" followed by a list of primarily meaningless mixings.
It reads to me much more as a poetic way of saying, "Don't mix my laws up with other people's. Obey ME only" than as actual laws against seed mingling, cattle breeding muck-ups and sartorial faux pas...
msongs
(67,441 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)(granted, He could turn water into butter beer).
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)It never gets old to me.
Gothmog
(145,554 posts)The quotes set forth in OP are from the Torah or the Old Testament for Christians. The Rabbis have been studying the entire Torah for a long time and have a more subtle view. Reform and to a lesser degree Conservative Judaism are very accepting of homosexuality. Many in the Reform movement look on the passages in a historical context and have decided that homosexuality and shellfish are acceptable in today's world and that slavery and other practices sanctioned by the Torah are not acceptable.
Even the Orthodox draw a distinction between the condition of being a homosexual and homosexual acts. http://www.jewfaq.org/m/sex.htm#Homosexuality. As noted, some Orthodox are beginning to question any prohibition on homosexuality due to the fact that science has established that homosexuality is not a choice. Here is a thread concerning an Orthodox Rabbi who makes a good case as to why even the Orthodox should change their position. http://www.democraticunderground.com/113733882
One cannot read the Torah without taking into consideration all of the analysis done on these words or sections by Jewish scholars. The fact these provisions of the Torah are being given interpretations that go beyond the actual words is important.
libodem
(19,288 posts)Of Rabbis discussing whether turning on a light on their holy day constitutes 'work' or not. They really go through deep philosophical discussions on every aspect of life. It is not any arbitrary snap decision. It is poured over.
Gothmog
(145,554 posts)You have not lived until you spent three plus hours discussing kosher rules. The Orthodox spent most the time arguing with the Ultra Orthodox. BTWj, jalapeños are inherently kosher. We were up to version 16 of the rules for this event.
I admire the passion and dedication of these Rabbis and scholars on all aspects of their study
libodem
(19,288 posts)It sounds enlightening. Good on you. Hope the cook-off was s grand success. No cheese on that chili, I'll wager.
Gothmog
(145,554 posts)It was fun seeing the entire Jewish community at one event.
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)It is a way for bronze age tribesmen to control other bronze age tribesmen.
I understand why people in the iron age might still consider it relevant, but it no longer is. If I want to eat shellfish then I am going to eat shellfish and no God who is in any way just or loving is going to care.
We need a newer, more modern version of The Bible.
Just for context:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+11%3A9-12&version=KJV
^snip^
Leviticus 11: 9-12
King James Version (KJV)
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
cvoogt
(949 posts)maybe the prohibition on shellfish was God's way of slowly introducing vegetarianism, one class of animals at a time. That would be loving though hardly just
Motown_Johnny
(22,308 posts)Unless the Hindus have the right idea and we should quit with the whole burger and steak thing.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)You never know when those will come in handy.
Response to lame54 (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)People see in it what they want to see in it.
The people who believe in an asshole god that preach wrath and vengeance and hurt use the Bible to justify that.
The people who believe in a kind god that preach being nice to each other, healing the sick, feeding the poor, following Wheaton's Law, use the Bible to justify that.
If you're going to follow the Bible, I'd prefer that you do it the way the latter group does it, not the former.
As for me, I've gone full atheist - I use other ways to construct my personal morality.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)Surprised no one has posted it yet....